Espresso Hour: Stress-Testing Our Million-Dollar Decisions — E7

Boom. Welcome back to another episode of the Espresso Hour, where the running joke is that this is going to be a little bit shorter than an hour, because once again, we are hyped up on caffeine. I got mine here. Cole, how are we doing? What's going on?

I cleared mine already. I'm feeling it in my veins. I'm ready to go.

Cool. So last week, we talked a little bit about our ghost writing intensive and how we're going to build that in public, building that to $1 million in revenue all in public as we build that out. And the response was awesome. So people loved the episode. They love the format. They love kind of getting to hear us talk. So what's your take? Do you want to keep that going?

Yeah, I think so. I think it's helpful for people. What I think the biggest benefit is, it reveals how much creating anything is an iterative process. It's not. You don't just sit down for two hours and go, oh, I figured it all out, and now it's perfect. And I don't need to change anything. I mean, if. If nothing else, I hope that we show and document that It's. It's something that changes over time.

So we definitely learned a ton in the last week. So, yeah, we want to keep this rolling. I think whether we talk about this every single week or we alternate between this and Q and A's, we'll find the right flow. But that was a lot of fun to record last week. So let's definitely. We're going to do it again this week, probably again next week, as we are in the initial stages. So what do we sprint on in the last week so people can get a sense of, like, what. We filmed this one last Tuesday as well. Right. So one week we put out those ideas. What did we sprint on?

So we did a lot. And I think it's important to emphasize, you know, one of the big things we preach all the time in ship 30 is this lean writing, lean creation process. You know, putting things out there, gathering data, doubling down on the data points that are clearly revealing themselves. And we can link to this in the show notes. But I tweeted maybe two or three weeks ago, you know, it was that tweet that said, hey, we're thinking of putting together this ghostwriting intensive comment, the ghost emoji, if you'd be interested in that. And usually those tweets, I mean, it's reminiscent of the original ship 30 tweet. You know, it's like, usually those types of Tweets, like maybe you get like five replies or something. That thing got over 150 comments of people going, yes, I would be interested in that. And that was a really, really strong signal for us to go, okay, we've been thinking about this. There's clearly something here we should keep. Let's double down on this faster than we were anticipating. And so what we did is we put together a survey, like an application survey, because we want to know who are all the different types of potential ghostwriters, like, who would take this intensive. And so we put together this survey asking, you know, experience level, are you already freelancing or ghostwriting, are you working a full time job and you want to start doing this or are you already doing this full time? You know, there's different architecture, archetypes of different people. And we created that survey, we jammed on it for a couple hours, we put it together using type form, and then we went through that Twitter post and literally DM'd all 150 plus people a link to the survey saying, hey, thanks for showing you were interested in this. Please go fill out this survey so we can learn more about you. And that's such a great example of, I think a lot of people would tweet something like that and then just kind of stop there. And the survey, we've learned a lot doing this in chip 30 is that surveys reveal so many opportunities to help different people at different stages and figure out, like, who are you really trying to serve with this one offer? What were some of the things that stood out in the survey results?

So we got 850 responses, which was awesome. So we sent it to our entire email, email list as well of people who have been reading our, our newsletter or taken ship 30 or been a part just of the community there. The first thing that stuck out is that the completion rate of the survey was about 36% and on average took about 24 minutes to complete. So we didn't, we optimized this survey for if you were not that interested, you weren't going to take the time to do it. But if this was something that you urgently wanted to do, you were going to block the time. So, like, right away we had a filter that we knew was going to lead to fewer potential leads, but more committed leads from the very beginning. So there's a lesson for anyone of like, and we were doing that as we were making the survey. It's like, should we cut this one? Should we cut that one? And it's like the people who we want in the program are going to sit down and take the time to do this. So that was a good initial lesson of the survey responses. We learned a couple of things. So very interesting. It basically broke down 50, 50 of people who are not freelance writers but want to get started. Right. They want to start earning income as a writer and they work a full time job right now. So that was about 50% of people. And then 50%, the other 50% were either full time freelancers or part time freelancers. Right. So they either know half the people want to just get started making money writing for other people, and then half the people were current freelancers who have made income in some type of way. Did you expect that? What was your initial take on that number?

I was surprised by how many people there were who said, I work a full time job, but I want to do this instead of. Because it's kind of funny. I've been, I've been ghostwriting and working for myself as a hired writer for a long time. I mean, probably eight plus years now. And I think it's always interesting to look at the people who. And it's hard work, you know, like, everything's hard. Every job is hard in a different way. But I'm always surprised by the people who are like, I'm doing this thing full time and I would rather do what you're doing full time. And so I always, like, I'm actually excited to talk to those types of people. But to be like, what are you doing now? You know, like, are you going from project management to ghostwriting? Are you going from, you know, food service to ghostwriting? Like, I'm always curious what that transition looks like. But I think where we landed, Dickie is the person. And at least to start, you know, for the first few cohorts, this can evolve over time and we can create different offers for different people. But I think where we landed is the person that we are that, that is the easiest to help accelerate. Where they are right now is the person who's already a freelance writer and already is making, call it low end, thousand bucks a month, higher end, 5,000 bucks a month. They already have one or two or three clients. They've already kind of gone through some of those early learnings, like how do you talk to a client or how do you accept payment for your work? Like those really basic things that we, we can break down and explain, but it's, it's really helpful if someone already has that basic foundation of knowledge and then the reason why we can help that person so much is because that person's already being paid to write. But there's tweaks that they can make where all of a sudden they have so much more clarity over what service to sell and how to position that service such that they're generating 2x3x5x10x more than they are. So it's an interesting question of everyone who took the survey. Do we want to focus on the 0 to 1 people or the 1 to 2 people? And I think we kind of landed on the second cohort.

Yeah. So an idea just came to me, but I'll, I'll save it for 30 seconds as I explain this. So the second question we asked was, what's your current average monthly income as a writer? Now if I could ask this again, we broke it down into between zero and a thousand, a thousand to three, three to five, five to ten and then ten plus. I wish we would have made zero its own thing and then one to a thousand. But you can kind of, you can kind of do the math on what it came back with was 70% 7, 0 are making between 0 and 1000 and above. People said 50% of them aren't freelance writers at all. So that means about 20% of freelance writers that answered are making under a thousand a month. And then the other 30% that said they are are making above 1000. We basically say the 50% of people that said they're working full time and not making any money as a writer. And then you can break the other bit down said another way, 30% of the people who responded are making above $1,000 a month as a writer. And it's much more difficult to help someone who's at zero get to a thousand than it is someone at a ousand get to 5 or 10 just based on the amount of information and feedback fundamentals that would go into a coaching program like this versus if we could assume you know how to collect payments, you know how to do this, you know how to do that. Right. That saves us a bunch of time. Now as we talk through ideal candidate, what would be most helpful for those people who said I want to start doing this, I do this full time would be some kind of mid ticket, 400, $500 self paced course on what are all the ways you could go and make money this way? Right. Because they don't even know what they don't know yet. So this is just me brainstorming this idea out loud. What would help them the most is like here are all the different paths and here is the four or five things that you need to do now, if you want to take any of them, like setting up an LLC to get paid or setting up like the basic fundamentals such that someone would need to have gone through that to come into the ghostwriting intensive.

Yep. Okay, so hand, handful of things. I love this. Now, now we're jamming. So I think where we're, where we want to end up by the end of this year because it's going to take time to build these different tranches. Where we want to end up is the twenty dollar book, you know, digital ghost writing, whatever that is, is. And I'm thinking about how this is, this becomes our stack for future products because you're going to have like these different tiers, but the book is basically the information. Like what are all the things I just need to know generally about this thing if I want to get into ghostwriting. And we have this framework in ship 30, which is the lean writing framework, and the book is basically just the lean writing framework. It's mistakes, tips, reasons, habits. You're just going down the list. Here's the mistakes people make that keep them from making money as a freelance writer or a ghostwriter. Here's tips for getting started as a ghostwriter. Here's reasons why ghostwriting is beneficial. Here's, you know, you just go down that list. That's, that's the book. It becomes a great lead magnet. $20 product, whatever. The four or $500 product I think is the, here's the five paths you can take. You know, so ghostwriting is roughly like Twitter and LinkedIn, thought leadership articles, email courses, ebooks, and you know, and then the outliers like books and speeches, you know, which is like a kind of a whole different beast. And the four or five hundred dollars product is basically, here's the different paths and, and here's the education of like what each one is, how to do it, how to set yourself up for success, like that, that sort of thing. Nikki the high ticket, I think is very similar from an information perspective on the 4 or 500, but it specifically drills into one. And the one we're drilling into is email courses. So you're like really picking, you know, one problem, one person, one way, so drills into one. And the thing that the high ticket really emphasizes is, is the client side. It's finding clients, it's the sales process. Like that to me is where we're gonna provide the most value in the high ticket Ghostwriting intensive is the fact that oftentimes the problem for the person isn't the writing, it's that no one taught them sales. No one taught them how to get on the phone with a client. No one taught them the importance of framing your offer. Like us giving writers sales scripts is the lion's share of the value. And I think thinking of that stack of like the information is the $20 product. The the actionable. Here's the different paths you can take. The five paths is the async 4 or $500 product. And then the high ticket product is the. Here's all the information, here's the paths. But really honing in on one and then a super heavy emphasis on the sales monetization side. And think about all the different writing verticals we could do that in.

And that emerged from. So the next question we asked on the survey was and just to paint behind the scenes, we wanted this survey to give us information about who is interested and then get them to describe in their own words what they are struggling with. So the very next question was what is the number one biggest struggle keeping you from earning more as a writer? And if you just read through these, it's finding new clients, finding new clients, getting on the phone, charging more, finding clients, no clients, not sure how to sell my services, packaging my offer, finding clients like that. If we did a word cloud like finding clients would be the number one thing. Right. So you could see how that's going to inform our offer construction when we're pitching it to them. Is this is going to primarily beyond helping you find clients. Right. Because you have great process for that from your ghostwriting agency days and figuring out very specifically what the actual problems are versus what we're just assuming the problems were.

Yep. Yeah, this is, this has been a really cool lesson on the sales copy side that I just want to share for, for people listening is most people approach this whole process as they go, here's the product I want to make, here's the course I want to run and then do that and then how do I go get a bunch of people to buy it? And in actuality the best process is the inverse. You actually start with what is the most compelling thing that someone would say yes to. Like disregard your own, like what you want it to be. You know, start with what would, what would be the no brainer thing that someone would say yes to figure out what that is and then go build the product that fulfills that. And most people, I don't think about it that way. And that's even been something for me over the past few years that I continue having to challenge in myself is like, because in a perfect world, I would, I would love to just make a ghostwriting product that just allows me to share, like, all these interesting things that I know. But the reality is a lot of those interesting things aren't really what move the needle for the person. So you have to throw all that away for a second. What's the one thing that the person wants? They're like, I want to find more clients. You're like, okay, make the offer to solve that and then go build the product that specifically solves that problem.

And it's difficult to do that. It's difficult to say, I'm not going to teach these four or five different things that I want to. Because, like, do we make our offer, find clients as a ghostwriter? I don't think so. Because we want it to be a full stack part of the. That will be like one of the core pillars of it. I think it's like finding clients, positioning your offer and fulfilling. Right. I think that's kind of the three. We teach them how to create email courses, we teach them how to pitch the offer that they need email courses, and then we teach them the cold outreach of finding people to write email courses for. That sounds to me like the three pillars of the offer stack right there.

Totally. And I think just, you know, for other people's learnings, I think it's important to emphasize, like, the levels that we have to think through in terms of reducing friction, because you can, you can see how the, the V1, it's very easy to go, I'm going to show someone how to create an email course. But then you already know that there's going to be a bunch of questions and there's going to be people confused and they're going to go, well, how do I execute this? And different. So, like, how do you remove all that friction? Well, step version two is, well, we should probably create templates for all of these different types of email courses. Right. So that way you're not expected to just hear the information once and go execute on it. Like, we're going to guarantee that you're going to be successful because we're going to give you exactly the thing to fill in and doing that for each individual point of friction in the whole thing. Like, that's how anyone builds a really.

Valuable education program, because every single problem we solve just opens up a new problem. So how can we proactively say, given you've solved this, what is the next problem you're going to have right? Given you now know how to find clients, how do you keep them coming back? Like yeah, there's so much here. So I'll share two more interesting things and then we can kind of talk about our initial invitation process. So this is a psychologically pretty interesting 90% of people when we ask them what would be the most beneficial to you as a structured learning program said some kind of community coaching implementation accountability. Only 10% of people said just give me the information, let me binge it and I'll do the rest. So most people want all of the accountability community, live learning kind of thing that comes with doing this well and that's how we want to fulfill because we think that leads to the most success. Now interestingly, the ideal earnings of what people wanted to make per month. Per month, right. Was 70% of people say they want to make more than 3k a month. 3k a month, 36k a year. Like very, very few people said that they wanted to make under 3k and really 50% of people want to make more than 5k. So 5k a month, right. That's interesting for us as we position like how can we most help people make 5k a month. But and this is where the, the psychology is interesting on the how much would you be willing to invest in a program that offered education weekly support accountability community of other ghostwriters that guaranteed a certain amount of income As a writer, 71% said only between 1 and 9, 99, 50% of people want to make more than five grand. Five grand a month, right? But they're not willing to invest in something that promises that of more than $1,000 which is like you look at college which the ROI is so incredibly negative. And here it's if you paid five grand for something that helped you make 60 grand a year minimum for the rest of your life, the amount of ROI on that is absolutely absurd. But for some reason the online education industry has to position things in a different way, right? Because to fulfill on a coaching accountability support at a sub $1,000 price point on this is extremely unrealistic. Right? We know that we this offers in the long run going to be upwards of 9,000 somewhere in that range, right? Because of all the things that are going to go into it and because of the potential it unlocks. Right? So it's just a. I found that interesting. If people want to make this much money, they're super willing, they want to do the work. But then when you ask them what they're willing to invest to get that outcome. Like the ROI would have to be 50 to 100 times versus that money sitting in a bank account. You know, it's just an interesting psych psychological question.

You know, I don't, the reason I don't read too much into that is because I really feel like where that stems from is just the amount of unproductive writing education that is out there, I think has just has tainted the market to an insane degree. Like most people, it's very like most just really basic or, or not even basic advanced like quote unquote writing courses. It's like couple hundred bucks or a couple thousand bucks for them to basically tell you like do what you love, be authentic and go out there and give it your all. Like they're really, they aren't owning the outcome at all. And so I think what we're doing is very unexpected. It's not what people are used to seeing. And I know that after we do one or two cohorts and we go 100% of the people who take this are knocking down multi thousand dollar ghostwriting clients. Like at a certain point it's going to go okay. The ROI on this is a no brainer. So I, over the long term I'm not, I'm not worried about what that data says at all.

Yeah, no, I agree. And that takes us kind of perfectly into how we're thinking about doing these initial invitations. Right? So we, we're pulling up our survey answers and saying who are the ideal candidates here, right? Who are the people that we think if we were to do an initial cohort of 20, just 20 people, would we feel that all 20 of them, our success rate of them landing 5k a month clients would be 100%. Right. So what we're doing is kind of going through the survey, we piped it all into airtable, we're creating different filters and views and we're going to go one by one down the list of who we think is most qualified, that we can most help and directly reach out to them and say you've been accepted, we'd love to talk to you about what this would look like. And we're going to bootstrap it with just one to one calls until we have a cohort that we feel really strongly about rather than letting anyone in and just sending out an invitation to everyone, hoping that a certain number of people join. We want to be very deliberate and intentional about who is in this initial cohort because we want people that want, we know are going to have success if they put the frameworks into practice. We want people who are going to require like a minimum amount of fundamental teaching, like we talked about earlier, and I don't know, we've talked about this throughout the last few days. I don't know what you, what you're thinking right now on it.

Yeah, I, I think that's right. I think starting smaller, I'm, I'm very aware that the biggest point of friction in this is not the writing. Like teaching how to write really great email courses is the easy part. The hard, the hard part. And this is where we're going to be challenged to really, like, make the offer super compelling, is teaching people how to sell the offer. Because everything changed for me the moment I basically, like, did two things. One, I super niched down on my ghostwriting service. I said, I only do one thing for one type of person. Like, that was it. And two was I started getting on the phone. Until I started getting on the phone with people, it was really hard for me to increase what I was charging as a ghostwriter. But the moment that I learned how to get people on the phone and go, hey, I'm a real person, you can trust me. And I'm really good at what I do. I was knocking. I mean, I took my income from like whatever I was being paid at the ad. At the ad agency I was working at. I was probably making 50k a year. So whatever that is per month, month, 3 grand a month, 4 grand a month, all of a sudden to north of 20 grand a month, like overnight. I know that for us, it's all. It's going to be all about teaching people how to do that for themselves as a writer. And so I think starting smaller and figuring out, like, what are all the things that we need to create, train on and, and hold people accountable for such that that is guaranteed. Like, that's where I'm already thinking the lion's share of our attention is gonna need to be.

I agree. And I think 20 to 25 people sounds like the perfect amount for that. And so our current goal is to get in the next week, a week and a half, start to reach out to the people we think are most qualified and basically recruit an initial cohort of 20 to 25 people saying, it's like we're holding the draft right? It's like, we know that we can deliver on this. We are reaching out to you. Here's our promise, here's what it looks like, here's our process, here's how to join that kind of thing. And we'll see what happens. Because just to paint where I think the long term vision of this looks like, like what does it look like in two or three years here? To me, it's some kind of someone can join at any time. There's a structured curriculum that they go through on a weekly basis. We have dedicated success coaches that are not us, that are assigned to each person that help them work through the curriculum. And then we say, what are the four or five different topics that people need the most help on? So it's probably doing the actual writing, it's sending cold email or sending DMs cold emails, like outreach. There's actual sales, there's kind of the tech side, like managing different tech pieces, whatever, staying organized. And this turns into a community where we hire coaches who host weekly office hours on those topics. The success manager can then talk to each student and say, hey, you're facing this problem now. Go to this call. You're facing this problem now. Go to this call. And that's coached out over 10 to 8, 6, 812 weeks, whatever we think that is. And then hopefully the back end becomes, look, every single person just knocked down 10k a month email clients. Now they're all making a hundred grand and they want to take it to the next level. We have kind of a backend community around helping people scale an already successful ghostwriting business. If we can nail that entire piece, then we have a really compelling scalable front end, back end everything. And so that's where my head's at is how can we bootstrap that from the very beginning with some live cohorts, really dial in what it is we teach until we feel so strongly about the curriculum and then we can hire a team around it to fulfill on the promises that we're making in the curriculum.

Yep. Yeah, I can already see, you know, it's cool because we already have all the information. We're just going through the steps of formalizing it and creating processes and like build, building it in a scalable way. But yeah, the back end of this is going to be so fun because what every person doesn't expect, and this was the most unexpected thing for me when I was going through it, is once you prove to someone that you can ghostwrite one asset really well, the moment they give you five grand and go, okay, I'm paying you five grand, build me a great email course. And you deliver on that, people are going to throw money at you like you how going from I'm not making very much to oh, now I'm landing a $5,000 client like once every two weeks. This, that's like the first big jump. But going from someone just paid me five grand and then all of a sudden scaling that to 20 grand a month is actually a lot easier because that person already trusts you. And what you will realize as a ghostwriter is once your foot's in the door, they're going to tell you all the other assets they wish someone would create for them. And so then, and this is what we're going to kind of put in this cohort on the education piece is like, then you have this choice. You go, I either stay niched down on one service. So you go, I only do email courses. So you say no to all that other work and you scale doing that one service to lots of different types of clients, or you find one client who loves what you do, and all of a sudden that one client gives you all of the other work that they need. And that one client is your whole business. And they're paying you north of 20 grand a month. And I had both happen. And so it's, it's going to be really cool to help then the, the next cohort of people who are there and have all these success stories of people who are like, I went from 5 to 20 plus grand a month like that.

Yeah. The more intentional we are with this initial cohort allows the future cohorts to sell even easier. Because it's like, here's our proof. We have 20 case studies that make it much easier. And I'm excited to dig into the client acquisition side of like, who are the people that need email courses? And we've talked a little bit about this of like, people who have YouTube channels but no Twitter organic. Like, how do I, how do I take people from my YouTube which is rented to an owned platform? No one is using email courses as the Funnel from their YouTube to their email list. So there's a huge acquisition and education opportunity where we help educate youtubers on the problem of you need an owned audience like your organic, that could be taken away from you at any time. And so we could also help them in some way that we could then bring in writers. Like, there's, there's so many different things that happen. Once we are confidently coaching and training ghostwriters to create these assets, then we can almost have a separate thing that goes out and brokers people to like, we help them find clients. Right. So there's tons. I just want to paint the picture for anyone listening of like, where we're thinking about sequencing this. It all starts with just a single tweet of who'd be interested in this. But once you start to solve new problems for a certain group of people, they're going to solve problems for that other group, and then we have to keep solving those and solving those for both of those. So that's what I'm most excited about right now, is thinking about all the opportunities. Because I'm just assuming, like, I know what's in your head on how to ghostwrite email courses. It's going to work, right? We're going to be able to teach that. I'm already jumping ahead. Like, okay, let's assume we're. This is, and this, all this is happening. Like, what, what are we going to build after that? That's where my head's at. Because, like, to me, this is going to be, this is execution risk at this point. We just have to put the things in place that are already in your head and get them in the heads of other people and make sure they stick to it. But what does it look like to have an army of people who've done all this? And then, you know, that that's where I'm like, second and third order thinking ahead here.

I mean, I put this in, you know, as we were building the landing page this past week, like, true story, we talked about doing this on, you know, our last Espresso Hour episode. And then another big course creator that I've known for years emailed me and said, I saw that you're going to train people on how to create email courses. I need email courses built. Can you let me know when they're trained? I would like to H one of them. Like, I know how compelling this offer is going to be. And the thing, Dickey, that I haven't talked about at all and we haven't even put out there is the credibility statement of everything that we're going to teach has already proven and generated over $3 million. Because my ghostwriting agency made millions of dollars doing this. Like, I, I, I went through this. I know I've sold hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of clients. I've trained to dozens and dozens of writers and editors. Like, I know exactly how this is going to go. It's just, it's all execution risk of we just have to build it.

That's right. And here we are. We're going to build it in public, week by week. Who knows where we'll be next week. I'm hoping that next week we have an almost full cohort that we learned a ton from these ideal people and so we're going to get to learn the process of setting up these calls, fulfilling, doing the sales on them and kind of iterating on the exact type of person we want, the exact type of thing they're looking for. So going to be a big week. All that on top of hosting our ChatGPT webinar on Friday. Right. So as we we tend to take on a good bit. So we're going to have this working in the background. We're going to sprint on at the same time getting our initial paid webinar up and running, see how that goes. We're going to learn so much in this week and the next week, which is kind of the whole thing. It's like our M.O. for the year. It's how can we just accelerate failure and accelerate paying down ignorance tax. That is all I'm trying to do. What do we have an ignorance tax around right now? How to structure and sell a low ticket one off product. Like I'm I love looking at what Dan Co and Justin Walsh are doing because it's completely different than what we're doing with the cohort model. And then another ignorance tax is the high ticket side. And so Here we are four weeks into 2023 and it's like let's pay both those down as quickly as we can because that's what it's going to take to to to get tay figures.

Yeah. I'm super curious. For anyone who attends the chat GPT webinar on Friday or the work, it's really a workshop and a live workshop and yeah what they think and if that's something that people really enjoy, we might end up doing those once a quarter. We might end up doing those once a month. You know, I mean there's definitely a lot of different topics we could touch on now that Ship 30's curriculum is like pretty well crystallized. I think there's lots of other tangential things we could experiment with.

Yeah. So let us know if you want to hear us talk about any of those things. On top of the ghost riding, just keep sending the feedback our way. It's super helpful to hear people are listening to these that they what they're finding interesting. Like I got a bunch of messages on the articulation of the ghost riding levels of leverage. People just liked hearing us jam on all that. So appreciate anyone listening. If you're watching this on YouTube, smash the like button. Subscribe Notification Bell Leave a comment with Biggest takeaway what you want to hear us Talk about next. If you are on a podcast, feed, Spotify, Apple, whatever, smash that five star review, hit, subscribe, let us know and send us a DM that you listened. If you're listening this part, what you're finding the most interesting, what we could talk about next, we'd love to hear from y', all, but other than that, that does it for. I don't even know what episode this is now, but I think the seventh one we've done, eighth one, we've done something like that second one talking about ghost riding. But we're going to keep this going week after week. That's it. Any parting words?

No, I'm just. You know what's cool about this is it almost holds us accountable too. I'm excited to now see what we sprint on and then kind of do the next check in and go, all right, here's how it went. Here's, here's what we're doing. So this is a cool idea.

We're hosting our meetings in public, right? We're just kind of doing. Because this kind of what it turned into. And I think I would love to hear other people do this, talk about their business on a weekly basis, like, what do we do? What do we work on? And even more than that, I can't wait in five years to like look back on this episode. So what's up, 30 year old me? You know what's going on? If you're listening to this again, hopefully you're doing even cooler shit. All right, that does it for this, this episode. We'll see you guys in the next one. Take it easy.