Interview with Sunnyside Founder Nick Allen - Nir And Far

Hey, everyone, this is Nir Eyal and welcome back to the near and Far Podcast. With me today is Nick Allen, CEO of Sunnyside. Sunnyside is one of my portfolio companies. I invested in this company a few years ago and it's just such a great example of how we can use habit forming products for good. So I wanted Nick Allen to come on the show and tell us more about the product. So. Hey, Nick, welcome.

Hey, thanks so much for having me. Really excited to be here.

Absolutely. So why don't we start out with telling us kind of, you know, what is Sunnyside? How does it work?

Yeah. So at Sunnyside, our mission is to. Is to help anyone who regularly drinks alcohol build a happier and healthier life by being more conscious and intentional about when and how much they drink. So unlike most of the other kind of products and services out there in the market today, kind of focus on people working on their drinking. We don't focus on complete sobriety, but rather help people kind of bring drinking into. Into balance and push back on those negative habits that ultimately lead to regrettable decisions around alcohol consumption. And so for us, we're using habit loops to kind of push back at what is a pretty common and can be very destructive loop around, kind of over consumption of alcohol and helping people ultimately enjoy drinking more by being more mindful and intentional about the role that it plays in the context of their overall health and wellness.

Enjoy. The part is the part they're doing more, not the drinking more per se.

Totally. Yeah. So by helping folks kind of cut out those drinks that they don't really want or need and that maybe they're drinking just due to kind of habit or kind of ingrained loops, we can help you actually concentrate on the ones that you really do intentionally want to have and ultimately kind of increase enjoyment while minimizing the downside effects that alcohol can have on our health and wellness if we're not being thoughtful about the role that it plays in the overall health picture.

Yeah. So there's so much I love about this company. I'm guessing that frequent listeners are now realizing why I invested in Sunnyside. You're fighting habits with habits. You're displacing a bad habit that doesn't serve you with a good habit around using the Sunnyside app. So how does the Sunnyside app do it? How do you actually moderate drinking in a way that serves you as opposed to something that you feel like is hurting you? How does the technology do that?

Yeah, so the Sunnyside design really starts from kind of an understanding of what is a pretty common loop when it comes to individuals and their drinking habits. And so what we find is that there are a number of these kind of habit loops that ultimately lead folks to drinking really out of automated routine, Rather than about kind of making an intentional choice. And so we find things like getting home after a hard day of work or ending the work week and kind of trying to transition from work mode into relaxation weekend mode. And what we find is that ultimately, for a lot of people, the action that they're taking is grabbing that first drink, and the reward that they're getting is kind of that feeling of relaxation, of kind of, okay, now I'm after work. I'm kind of in my relaxation mode. And that ultimately then leads to kind of this cycle where they finish one, they automatically kind of move on to the next one. And over time, that loop becomes really deeply ingrained, and that kind of external trigger becomes an internal trigger. And folks end up finding that they're drinking more out of automation Rather than out of intentionality. And so at sunny said, what we try to do is really bring a more intentional focus and awareness to the act of drinking by unpacking those kind of ingrained habits and helping to replace them with healthier triggers. And that starts with really just kind of bringing intention and disrupting those automated routines that are kind of pushing folks through this loop over and over again. And so there are two kind of core components of the sunnyside experience that I think really lend themselves well to your teachings and kind of the habit loop kind of science, ultimately. And so the first is this idea of upfront planning. And so every week, our customers come together on Sundays, and they're presented with a series of recommendations about kind of target drinks for the week ahead. So what we do is we consolidate decision making about the week into a single point in time, Often when willpower is kind of at a high towards the beginning of the week, kind of after a recharging week weekend. And we really kind of push our members to take a pause and to reflect on and anticipate kind of the points along their week that might end up being challenging. And that might kind of lead to a point where that kind of automated habit routine might kick in. And so just this active kind of. And actually, this borrows a lot from indistractable. Ultimately, the idea of kind of time boxing, Using that weekly reflection experience and actually kind of creating a pre commitment to. Towards kind of a healthier intention for the week Allows us to kind of create an accountability roadmap. With which to work with our members over the course of the week. And so now Tuesday comes around. You had a really hard day at work, and normally you might go and kind of grab a glass of wine. Sunnyside works with you with a series of kind of tailored and adaptive nudges to help you kind of stay accountable to the plan that you created for yourself up front. And so that Tuesday comes around and instead of us having to tell you like, hey, you shouldn't drink today, which often can feel judgmental, or a little bit of like a screw you, I'm going to do what I want instead, what we can do is actually remind you about the intention that you had for yourself and help you to kind of stay accountable to that goal. And so Sunnysight acts as kind of a third party system of accountability to help you stay in line with the intentions that you set for yourself when you weren't in this moment of kind of depleted willpower and a point where kind of you might be susceptible to those automated routines kind of creeping up and kind of overcoming your intention for healthier drinking goals. And so that's really kind of the core of the product experience, is this upfront planning and then intercepting those automated routines over the course of the week to help folks stay accountable to the targets and the goals that they've set for themselves over time. We help members to build new ingrained habits and to build new associations about when they hit that point in the day where kind of alcohol maybe was the. The reward that they would give themselves. We help members to replace those rewards with kind of healthier alternatives. And we take a series of automated routines that are not serving you, replace them with a series of routines that are helping and ultimately help folks to not only decrease and reach a healthier level of drinking, but most importantly, maintain those habits for the long term. Sunnyside is really built to be a lifetime utility. It's built to be something that as long as that temptation exists to drink, both through kind of internal triggers and kind of external triggers, which there are, of which there are many when it comes to heavier drinking, Having a third party accountability system in your pocket to help you stay on track with your goals is something that now tens of thousands of members that have used Sunnyside or that are currently using Sunnyside have found really, really valuable in kind of building a proactive routine around healthier drinking that really fits into their existing lifestyles.

Yeah, it's interesting that I think most people are familiar with kind of the black and white model of alcohol consumption. Either you're sober or you're not. Right? It's, like, very binary. And you see that a lot with. With technology as well, right? The conversation is, you need to stop using social media. You need to stop doing this, stop doing that. And I'm curious, like, you know, my philosophy is that that's kind of unrealistic and.

And.

And unnecessary. But I'm. I'm also curious, like, why you didn't design an app for that. Like, why. Why not just help people quit alcohol altogether?

Yeah, it's a great question. And ultimately, this is kind of stems from my own lived experience when it comes to my relationship with alcohol and kind of my familial history when it comes to kind of alcohol overuse. So I'll start by just saying that I have the utmost respect for those who decide that alcohol doesn't have any place in their lives and kind of go the completely sober route. My parents are both in recovery from alcoholism and have been sober for most of my life, and that had a profoundly positive impact on my lived experience growing up. My parents also helped me, when I was starting to explore my own relationship with alcohol, understand the risk factors that kind of ultimately led them to a point where alcohol got really out of hand in their overall kind of lives, and they decided that moderation was not a realistic goal for them. And so what that meant for me is now, over the last two decades of exploring my own relationship with alcohol, I've always understood that I have some of those similar risk factors, and that if I'm not being conscious and intentional about the role that alcohol plays in my health, I know that it can sneak up on me, and I know that it can kind of become pretty quickly out of balance in my overall kind of health and life goals. With that said, complete sobriety has never really felt like the right fit for me. And there just haven't been options for folks who have been like myself, who have been interested in making a change to their drinking habits and learning to manage drinking in the same way that we've learned to manage diet and exercise and mindfulness as components of our proactive wellness routines. And so the whole thesis behind Sunnyside is that while sobriety is definitely the right choice for a meaningful portion of the population, there are many, many millions of others who are not open or interested in the idea of complete sobriety, and yet who could still really benefit from bringing kind of more intentional and more mindfulness to their relationship with drinking overall. And so it's not to say that we're here to replace Sobriety as an opportunity and as a choice. We just want to provide more tools for more folks who are starting to have that inkling that, hey, maybe I could benefit from being more mindful and intentional about the role that alcohol plays in my life. And we're seeing this huge shift in consumer behavior towards more mindful everything, alcohol included. And for many people, if we're able to provide tools and a vocabulary to manage drinking proactively and in a positive light, we really believe that we can prevent a lot of the most negative consequences of, of unchecked alcohol use and ultimately addiction with a solution that's about prevention and about being proactive rather than kind of waiting until we spiral out of control and have some rock bottom moment and then kind of deciding that we have to go cold turkey or we have to go all or nothing. It really is about balance. And for many drinkers, moderation is a realistic goal. And yet up to this point, there haven't been tools to help build a system of accountability and build the right habits to not only achieve healthy drinking habits, but also maintain those habits for the long term. In the absence of a tool like Sunnyside, people are using flaky personal systems that are effective as long as your willpower is kind of there. And as soon as that willpower ebbs, you go right back to the norm. And so just having a third party system to kind of help for the long term made a huge difference in my life with kind of the first little tool that I built for myself to change my own drinking habits and now has helped many thousands of others kind of achieve those goals as well.

Yeah. How well is it working? Do you have any stats on how people are working with it and how effective it is?

Yeah, definitely. So it's been working extremely well. We've been working with a team of independent researchers from Brown and Hofstra Universities to really understand and validate the efficacy of the program. What we found is that we're driving a statistically significant 32% reduction in weekly total alcohol consumption in the first 12 weeks of the program. And more importantly for us, and what really kind of gets us excited that we're achieving the mission that we really set out to achieve here, is that when we look at folks who are now in the second and third year of usage of Sunnyside, of which there are now many, we're seeing that those gains are maintained and that folks are actually kind of holding on to these newly built habits for the long term. And that's really the magic that we're seeking to achieve and the societal impact that we want to have when it comes to shifting the frame of alcohol use treatment from one that's kind of reactive and somber and wait until you have a big problem before you do anything about it, towards one that's proactive and positive and about making an investment in your wellness for the long term. And that's really what we're seeing when we start to look at the data of kind of how the program is working for folks.

Can you walk us through the hook model that you implemented?

Yeah, definitely. So as I mentioned, we were using SMS and so it's actually kind of another funny story. I was reading Indistractable in the kind of early days of starting to think about changing my own drinking habits a few years ago and you cited a study about kind of SMS interventions for tobacco use, which really stuck with me. And so we're leveraging text messages to create external nudges to help folks kind of stave off those existing automated routines that tend to not serve them well when it comes to alcohol use. And so the core sunnysight experience is really built around tailored and adaptive text messages that create new triggers around the time when internal triggers for many people tend to take over and kind of push folks towards mindless drinking ultimately. And so we're using kind of SMS very actively and it's a two way text message experience where folks can kind of engage with us via text message. And we kind of fit into that existing routine of checking your texts as a way to kind of create the association between that time of day, that like five or six o' clock window, and making intentional choices in that transition from home to work. So that's kind of the key external trigger that we've created is this SMS based kind of engagement system. And the action that we're asking folks to take is to log their consumption as they're starting to kind of drink. And so on a drinking day, I should say, so we have a whole system for logging non drinking days, which is probably another conversation about kind of the non habit tracking, which I think is also quite interesting. But on a kind of planned drinking day, our members are building the association between having that first drink and sending us a message to actually log their consumption. By sending us that message, they're basically between each drink. So as soon as you finish a drink, we're creating this association like finish the drink pause to track with Sunnyside. And that active tracking creates conscious interference between finishing one drink and kind of moving on into the next drink. It creates a moment to stop, reflect, take a deep breath and check in with where you are and then decide if you want to have that next drink or make a choice that kind of serves your longer term goals. And so the reward that folks are getting for tracking is they're receiving a response via text message. So they're getting an immediate kind of check in on, hey, this is where you are relative to the goal that you set for yourself. And we do a nice little like green light when you're on track. And it kind of creates this really nice self reinforcing, like simple game basically within the act of having a drinking session. And that tracking is also an investment in the product experience as well. So basically each time that you're logging your drinks or logging your dry days, you're filling in the next bubble, you're getting this kind of like fun gamified progress element that kind of persists week to week. And you're also loading up this kind of dashboard of data and of interesting insights about the impact that healthier drinking is having on virtually every other area of your health, whether it's money saved or calories avoided, if you're interested in that, or sleep quality improvement. And so basically we've got this kind of tight loop around logging consumption, which is then making the dashboard and the experience better. It drives a deeper and more personalized kind of experience of the product over time and ultimately kind of leads back through that same loop. And the longer that you're kind of working on building that external trigger association of getting the text to taking the action of logging your drinks and then ultimately kind of getting the reward of the feedback, both in kind of the weekly game as well as kind of like the longer term progress that's ultimately kind of how we're, we're helping you hack back on those existing automated routines around drinking that for many are very subtle but very pervasive and deeply ingrained.

Are you finding that people need those external triggers? Like how effective are those external triggers in the time? So if I understand correctly, you say, okay, I plan to go out Friday night, I don't want to drink more than three drinks, let's say that night. And then are you finding that that external trigger that reminds people, hey, you know, you said you're going to drink three drinks tonight. When, when did you start your first something like that? First of all, did I capture that properly? And, and if so, how important is that external trigger versus the person remembering, oh yeah, it's Friday night, I gotta remember to log my drinks.

Yeah. So I would say that it kind of the importance of those messages evolves over time. And so for members who are in the early days of usage, having that nudge and you can actually configure the time that you receive that nudge. So taking that moment to understand, like when am I kind of facing the temptation, when am I starting these sessions typically, and kind of trying to time that reminder as closely as possible to the point where you're actually kind of having that internal trigger to start drinking is really effective for folks. And so what we're doing is we're starting by kind of prompting the relationship. We're starting by kind of pushing you the message to remember your mindful drinking intention. And over time, as we see people kind of engaging with the system, a lot of this starts to kind of happen automatically. And so the external edge becomes less important because folks have this now ingrained habit of as soon as I pick up the drink now I'm going to start tracking and I'm going to kind of understand and ingest the feedback that I'm receiving back to kind of help me stay mindful and accountable towards my goals. And so as you can imagine, in the early days, we're kind of pushing and over time, members are kind of pulling the information out of us and pulling that accountability out of us because they've kind of got those natural associations in place. And so that's really kind of the transition from external triggering into more of an internal trigger experience. And folks that have been around for a really long time, they associate Sunnyside with drinking. And that's a really great association because we can actually help you in those moments, especially when you're waffling or not sure or feeling the temptation or the craving, you know where to turn to kind of get the help. And I think that becomes a really powerful system of accountability for our members.

Yeah, that's very typical. That you see, the external trigger is almost like the training wheels to create the association with the internal trigger. But it's interesting that, that that Sunny sun is helping people not do a behavior by adding a behavior. So every time you drink, send a message to Sunnyside. But it's interesting because most of the products that I've seen and work with, it's, you know, you're, you're reinforcing that behavior that you just did. I could see a situation where you're either incentivizing the drinking in a weird way, which I know you're not doing, or incentivizing non reporting, like maybe just not reporting that Third or fourth drink? I don't know. How do you, how do you think through that?

Yeah, so there's a really interesting kind of set of features that we've built around the non action logging, right. So like one of the key pieces of Sunnyside and where we help folks is actually building non drinking days, right? And so many members sign up and are drinking most days of the week, you know, some more than others. And obviously that we're excited to work with you no matter where you are on the journey. But for that daily drinker, the key for us is actually to kind of build a path towards non drinking days. Right. And so the way that we do that is we're using these nudges not only to remind you to track your drinks, but also to remind you when your intention for the day was to not take that action. And in that moment we're actually kind of suggesting alternatives and helping to kind of help you work through that typical kind of craving response loop that often leads to consumption, even when it's kind of planned to be a non drinking day. And so that where we celebrate you most in the product experience is logging that zero the next morning when you have not had a drink and getting the feedback where you actually stayed on plan with that dry day. And so zeros and non drinking days are critically important to the Sunnyside system. Even though we are forgiving enough platform where we also celebrate when you stay within your drink thresholds on drinking days, on the drinking days, the system is kind of reversed from what you might imagine when you're trying to reinforce a new habit. So instead of celebrating you for each time that you're logging, as you're approaching your kind of your goal for the day, we're really helping you to take those pauses and to extend the time between taking the next action and helping you fill that space between one drink and the next. And so the system actually works where you start to get those yellow lights when you're kind of approaching or over your plan, and ultimately kind of the red light when you've kind of exceeded the target that you set for yourself. One thing that's really important is that the system is not punitive. And so despite kind of getting the red light, the product doesn't break because you started drinking. Your tracking streak doesn't start over. It's not about being perfect, it's more about doing your best and continuing to try every single day. And so when you're logging those off target days, which definitely happen for most members, we're picking you up. We're not saying you failed. You have to start all over. You've got to kind of go back to zero and rebuild everything from the ground up. Rather we say, hey, you did your best, let's try again today. Here's your target, let's keep going. And Sunnyside members really love that about the product experience is that we never make you feel guilty, we never judge you. And so we don't incentivize non reporting or false reporting because it's all about just kind of reinforcing and helping you make your best effort every single day. And so that kind of helps to avoid the under or non reporting action. And what we see with the combination of text message and this really constructive and positive language that's really kind of defining of the Sunnyside brand is that our members are extremely deeply engaged. So we've got like 85% of people tracking at least five days every single week. And I think that the combination of kind of positive nonjudgmental reinforcement and selective nudges that kind of fit into your existing routine of checking your text messages allow us to achieve that in a way that doesn't feel overbearing or judgmental. Which is definitely one of the problems when you look at some of the kind of sobriety focused apps out there is as soon as you have that drink, everything has to start over. You go back to zero. And that relapse is really difficult for many people to bounce back from. And so because we're not focused on that all or nothing binary, we can create a much more forgiving system that helps you continuously pick yourself back up and keep going on the journey, even if you're not perfect.

I really like the sense of agency that it, that inspires in people of, look, you know, you said what you were going to do and you did it. And I think, you know, we see this a lot with, with indistractable as well. Is that just that practice of saying what you were going to do and doing it, even if you fall off the wagon later on, you can always refer back to, yeah, but I did this before. Like, I know what it takes. I can do this so that any time. And the more you prove that to yourself, the more you prove, hey, you know what? I said I did this and I did it in this area of my life. That does expand to other areas of your life. Because so much of what we do, we justify by saying, I'm powerless against it or there's nothing I can do. But if you have evidence, actually there's a lot I could do. See, look what I just did. That grows over time as well.

Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. I think it's a really important reflection. And so part of that weekly planning process that we talked about is looking backwards and then looking forwards and kind of reflecting and refining. So a lot of kind of your language baked into that product experience of let's take a look backwards. Let's see when we did what we said we were going to do and let's see when we weren't able to do what we said we were going to do. And let's use that to kind of refine and improve our approach for the upcoming week. And every week that you go through that cycle around drinking and then ultimately, to your point, easily can be extended into other areas of your life. The better you become at doing what you said you were going to do, right? And the more indistractable you become. And so that really is kind of a core component of the product experience is, you know, creating a self reinforcing system of personal accountability that would be really difficult to recreate without some kind of third party, I say enforcement, but that's not really the right word here. Without kind of some third party nudge to continue to push you in the right direction.

Drinking is so closely associated with internal triggers, right? If I'm feeling socially awkward, I drink. If I'm feeling lonely, I drink. If I'm feeling isolated, if I'm feeling bored, if there's just so many internal triggers associated with with drinking that drinking numbs away, how do you replace those or how do you help people deal with those internal triggers? That must be a pretty tricky part. What kind of tools and options do you give them?

That is one of the trickiest parts of this area of health basically is that there are some kind of those deeply ingrained tendencies and they're everywhere when it comes to the internal and kind of external triggers to kind of drink as a way to fill a gap, right? And so the first thing that we really coach is avoiding drinking to kind of address negative feelings and negative emotions. And so I think where a lot of people end up kind of feeling regret about their drinking is the boredom, the stress drinks, the drinks that come after a really hard day of work, that ultimately it's like drink for release. But when you take a step backwards and when you actually look at kind of the impact that those types of drinks have, they're often creating kind of a reverse reward loop, right? Where you get this kind of short term hit the short term reward, but you often end up feeling worse the next day or guilty or not great about those decisions that you made. And so one of the key things that we do at Sunnyside is we really try to help you zoom out from the immediate reward of, or the immediate release that having a drink in hand might at least kind of feel like it's giving you and to rather kind of refocus on longer term outcomes and your longer term goals. And so when folks are kind of working with us in terms of dealing with a craving or wanting to stay on top of a dry day when things are feeling tough, we can step in there with human coaches, actually, which I didn't mention as a core part of the experience, to kind of help provide encouragement and alternatives and really just remind you that you're not alone and that there are other ways to get the same benefits or actually get, really get, get those benefits without kind of the, you know, the, the, the false release that, that I think alcohol often provides for people. So there, and there are also really interesting things that, that you, you find as you start to work on this mindful drinking journey. For example, just opening some beverage and have, you know, whether it being a sparkling water or a hot cup of tea, just having some beverage in hand often gives a lot of the same release that alcohol does. And so what you start to learn as you're kind of unpacking these habits is like, maybe it's actually not the alcohol itself that is kind of helping me to lubricate social situations or release boredom or stress. It's actually rather this idea of having something in your hand and that natural kind of routine around opening the drink is kind of the way that you join the party, if you will. And so we coach a lot of folks with replacement and with, with kind of mindfulness habits to push back, recognize first of all and push back on the cravings and then replace the rewards with kind of healthier alternatives that you feel really good about and you start to recognize are actually giving you a lot of those same benefits with a lot fewer downsides, basically.

Yeah. Makes sense. Tell me about the human coaches.

Yeah, so our human coaching team is a really awesome component of the program. Coaches are basically recruited out of the Sunnyside member base. And so we're bringing folks who have been successful on the Sunnyside platform into the opportunity to help other members on the mindful drinking journey as well. And so this actually becomes something that's self reinforcing for the members who kind of graduate into coaches in that they're able to kind of spread their learning and provide kind of support for members who are looking for kind of help earlier on their journey in a way that provides benefits for both parties. And so the coaching team is incredible. They're incredibly high empathy and they're available via text message whenever you're in need of a, a little extra nudge in the right direction. And so, you know, the automated system goes so far as kind of providing the nudges, helping to kind of, you know, remind you of the, of the intentions that you have for yourself. And the human coaches can step in when you need a little bit more. And so same same SMS thread as simple, you know, always just a text away basically there to kind of help you get through those cravings, those challenges and lend a listening ear when things are feeling tough. Many of our members don't engage with the coaches at all. It's definitely not a required part of the program. Some people do actually prefer to work on this in kind of more of a self serve option. But, but for the folks that need a little bit more kind of help and a little bit more of a push in the right direction, we've got that layer of support available for them.

Very cool. Maybe we can switch gears a little bit. I'd love to ask more about the journey of building the business and kind of what's been your experience helping to run the company? What's been the greatest challenges? I'm guessing I know, the greatest rewards. Right? It must be amazing to help so many people gain control over their drinking. But what's been kind of some of the bigger challenges?

Yeah, I mean this is a mission that strikes extremely close to home for both me and my co founder as well as many other Sunnyside staff. So we're loving coming to work every day and having the impact on families like our own and on individuals like us who are being proactive and making an investment in themselves to improve their lives and to improve the relationships and the lives of those around them. So there's nothing I'd rather be doing. And I'm excited to dedicate the rest of my life to pushing this mission into kind of changing the societal kind of norms and paradigms around alcohol in the context of our health. Running a startup also, of course comes with challenges and that means figuring out how to acquire the next customers and building a product experience that keeps people around for the long term. And we're spending a lot of time thinking about consumer distribution as both a challenge and a really interesting opportunity for us because we actually believe that the best consumer health experiences or the best end user health experiences kind of require you to be this close to the customer. Right. Require you to really understand and empathize with the customer journey in a way that selling through businesses and kind of being very removed from that end customer would be really, really difficult to achieve. The level of understanding and the level of empathy that I really feel like we've built for our customers. So the challenges are opportunities for us to learn more about who it is that we're serving and to build something really meaningful that kind of reaches the right customers and finds them in moments when they're open to the inkling or that consideration of maybe I could benefit from a change to my relationship with alcohol that doesn't necessarily preclude that I admit that I have some drinking problem or go down some of the stigmatized pathways that exist today. And so it's been a really fun journey and I think we've got a pretty clear place in this market that is resonating really well so far.

Well, I think I told you before, but I wish all my portfolio companies did as an amazing job as you do of these investor updates you give. You're so methodical and strategic about how you serve your customers and how you find them and how you make sure that they're getting a great experience. So I know the company's killing it. You're doing great and super proud to be involved. So thank you so much. And I also, before we go, can you tell everyone how they can find out some more information about Sunnyside?

Yeah, definitely. So you can check us out at Sunnyside Co or on the App Store. We're live in the iOS app store today, so yeah, that's a great place to get started as well. And really, no matter where you are on your mindful drinking journey, we're really excited to work with you and it doesn't require you to kind of have some rock bottom moment to get started. And the benefits that you'll feel of more healthy drinking are really profound. Virtually any other area of your health that you're interested in improving, like alcohol, can be a great keystone for improving habits elsewhere as well. So super excited to work with anyone out there who's interested. And yeah, check us out at Sunnyside Co and Nir, thank you so much for having us and for being involved with the company. I hope that you can see that your kind of writing has really deeply influenced the Sunnyside product experience and also kind of my own understanding of building products that can be additive and helpful to society and to people's health. So super proud to have you on the journey with us.

My pleasure, my honor. Thank you so much for. You're doing the hard part, right? I just wrote the book, but you're actually implementing it, so that's the tough part. So really admire what you're doing over there. So keep up the great work. Thanks so much for joining me.

All right, Thanks a lot. Talk to you soon.