Electrifying the factory floor didn't make them money

change over time. I think this is one of those things where you can't just decide and then that's what you believe forever. It's— you need to come back to this, I don't know, once a year and think about— more, more than that, you would say? Okay.

Yeah, because it's dynamic. So, uh, you know, marginal benefit of more money— well, Peter just, um, you know, uh, had another kid. Right. Does that change the value of a marginal increment of take-home pay? Hell yeah, it does. Cause we got diapers and we got nannies and we got daycare and private school and college fund. Right. But you found out you're pregnant today. Tomorrow your math needs to change on the benefit of a marginal dollar.

This kind of reminds me of like, um, what do they call it in health insurance? It's like a major life event when like you're eligible to like add or remove people from your policy.

You get sued. You get sued and you're like, well, I'm going to win, but I'm going to have to pay lawyers. Well, Papa's going to take some more coaching clients.

Yeah. Right.

So whereas last week you're like, ah, I'm good. I don't want the butt pain of talking to people all day.

Yeah. So basically, you know, on a regular cadence, plus at special events, you know, special circumstances, you need to read—

qualifying life event.

Exactly. That's what, that's the lingo I was looking for. Qualifying life event. There we go. I wasn't going to help you, but You need to rerun this calculus for yourself. And the trouble we have as humans is anchoring. You know, we get anchored to the early numbers. And so, you know, when you're in your 20s and you're young and impressionable, making an extra $50,000 a year would be monumentally life-changing. And so that number kind of like sticks with you. And so as you get into your 30s and 40s, and if you have some business success and some investments start to pay off and things like that, it's no longer appropriate to consider $50,000 to be monumental, life-changing money. Now, it still may be something that is worth doing, but you need to— you need to, like, uh, what, what do the Twitter people say? Like, revise your priors. Like, you need to—

if you say so.

Yeah, like, you can't let yourself get anchored to the old figures. And you also need to think like, not only can you not get anchored to the old figures, but you actually need to do a little bit of like forecasting of like, well, this project, if it goes well, is going to be a 5-year thing. What is going to be my number 2.5 years from now? Because I don't want to commit to something that, yeah, technically it makes sense for today, but in 2 years is absolutely not going to make sense, even if 3 out of the 5 things I'm working on go moderately well.

Two things here when you say that get triggered in my head. Which is, and I talk about this and I've written about versions of this before, but the core principle is you also have to look at the cost side. Peter, would you like to make an extra $50,000 a year? Uh, okay. I need you to travel once a week to the middle of nowhere and do something you hate doing. I'm good.

Thanks.

Or Peter, I need you to come on the AppFolio podcast once every 6 months. And by the way, you're allowed to pitch Crane during that thing and we'll pay you $50 grand. You have to look at what the piece out of your ass it's going to take, right? So I think you have to look, not because what people do is they just look at a marginal $50,000 and you're like, yeah, but what's, what's the other half? Is it something I like doing? Is it something that fits with my life plan? Is my wife on board? Is the business going to sustain this? Is it recurrent? Is it— there's all this cost side of the equation that early in your career, it's just the one half, which is how do I make the numerator go up?

And you never think about the denominator, which is what's the return on brain damage.

Yeah. Which is the cost side, right? The cost side. The other thing that I think is important here too, that I think is worth noting is importantly, when we talk about recalibration, you can recalibrate down.

Hey.

I sold the company. I used to just basically half-ass EOS meetings when I was running RL, and I just liked having an office there. I didn't really do much. We sold it or it shut down. It went out of business. Okay. I need to recalibrate and go do things that I didn't do for the last 10 years at RL because I need to keep a roof over my family's head. So I'm gonna run sales calls, and I had a 5-year period where I didn't run sales calls.

So that I think is really, really hard for the average person.

It is, but you, you have to be prepared to step back.

You have to be prepared to do that. And yeah, I think it's good to mentally remind yourself that that is a possibility and to humble yourself enough to be like, yes, I would do that if, if it was required to provide for my family and maintain, you know, the lifestyle that we want to maintain. I will say human psychology, human tendency is That is the most detestable course of action you could almost even think of, to like go backward in terms of like value of your time, status, whatever it is. Um, in fact, you see like executives who commit suicide, they are facing the prospect of this. And like many executives, not just in Japan, but in the US as well, like when the prospect of like global embarrassment or loss of status is like a sure thing.

Yeah.

Many of them choose to end their life. And that's obviously a horrible thing, but that shows you the seriousness with which the human psyche treats a loss of status or a loss of earning power.

You, you, and you know, you see it a lot with venture-backed companies who are like hollowed out. They raised money 4 years ago and it was all flashy or whatever. And now they're making 6 grand a month and their growth prospects are nuked and they, they can't leave it because that means Well, I have to get another startup and it's tough to raise right now. So that means I'm gonna take a job. But I was CEO of a Series A funded company. And it's better from a status preservation standpoint to just fucking ride the ghost ship than it is to say, I'm gonna go eat some humble pie and go ask my buddy for a job.

That's a great perspective. I think that explains a lot of what we're seeing right now, like thinking about property management, like vendors and stuff like that. There's a lot of chatter about like, hey, why are these guys still coming to the trade show? That's why it's clearly not working.

I mean, that's why.

Interesting.

That's why. And the— for the VCs, it's a free option, and then they never have to mark their position to market. They never have to write it. So they can just say, hey, the last priced round was $10 million. They can go raise off that because they never shut it down. They never marked it to market. They've got a guy who's just gonna sit there, right? There's huge incentives to And not necessarily market, you know, write it down to zero basically, because now they can't raise their next fund.

Yeah.

The other thing I'll say, the one other comment I'll say here too, and it's one of the reasons why Christian Ruffe has become one of my very close friends, and there's a few other folks like this, who Christian and I both went from exceptionally high status positions in the government to full ego death in the private sector. Complete and full eager death, ego death. So one month it was like, hey, the president's coming into town and he needs an update on— like the equivalent of that. Or Christian, it was flying around Delta Force in the middle of the night chasing America's most wanted terrorists, to being a handyman in Memphis, Tennessee, and nobody gives a shit and he's making $22 an hour. Full ego death.

That's tough.

And I had, I had something similar, right? And so I think for me, the prospect of stepping back, because I've seen it before, it's less terrifying to me, like, and Christian, because we've been through the, like, I have no status anymore.

I have no status gone through that. And it would scare me. I would have a hard time with it if I'm being honest with myself.

No, it's, it's hard. Yeah, it's hard. I mean, it's for you. It's like when you walk into a room at say, like a summer camp and people don't immediately know who you are. You know, stuff, you know, that would be the equivalent for you. That's just a little version. Yeah, it's a little version of it. But yeah, ego death, or— Yeah, I think looking that in the eyes lets you play the game looser, which I think is really important. Yeah, like looking that in the eyes and you don't play like you have something to lose. You're like, look, my thing is always like, I'm like, hey, Tim, you know, I think, you know, Tim Ludwig, It's like, hey, Tim, you know, that head of portfolio operations seat, you know, if I ever— I'll be there. Then if everything's gonna work out, you keep that seat warm for me, right, Tim? And he knows, like, he's my, he's my parachute. You know, I've got a couple folks like that who just gives me psychological safety, you know.

Back to the money thing. So not only do you need to be clear about I mean, this is like an opportunity cost discussion, right? Like if you, if you take this opportunity that takes 10 hours a week, that's 10 hours you don't have to, you know, work on your own thing or start something that could make you more money. So you have to really think about opportunity costs both now and in the future, cuz everything you do is kind of like a commitment to an ongoing thing typically. Um, and the other thing, once you get, so, so that's in the realm of what I would call like rational financial decision-making, like thinking about opportunity costs and like return on brain damage and like financial stuff that is all with the, around the goal of like, how can I make the most money in 40 to 50 to 60 hours a week with the least amount of pain? However, what you and I were discussing recently is there comes a point at which there is no value in an incremental dollar to above a certain level. So the rational choice is to do no additional work and scale back your hours to what you want to work and say no to everything regardless of how good the opportunity is, because what's the money for? The whole point of making money is not to see numbers on a screen go up. It's to have the life you want to have. Enjoy the freedom you want to have with your family. Go on trips, have a nice home, a nice car, whatever it is. And once you have enough money to do those things, go do them. Stop working.

You know the first place I read this?

Where?

The first place I read this, this, and I have very mixed feelings about this book, it was in The 4-Hour Workweek.

Yeah.

Where he's like, look, there's probably going to be a point where if this works, and you're paying your bills, you're going to look at your week and there's going to be nothing on it, but you're going to have all your material needs met. This is sometimes a very hard moment. Like, this can oftentimes— like, well, what do I do if I, if I'm not getting pulled around by meeting my needs financially? What do I do? And it's a, it's a wonderful question, right? It's one of the core— I think in existential psychotherapy, it's one of the core existential concerns, which is actually freedom. It's one of the core existential things that if you're in an existential therapeutic context that you have to wrestle with, which is effectively freedom of choice. And it can spin people off into existential crises because it's like, time moves on, doors close, and I could go into any number of doors, and it can really trip people from like a very deep psychological perspective. Um, so yeah, yeah, I think it's, it's worthwhile to just note that, that freedom and being again, post-economic could be making $30,000 a year and that's more than enough. Like it's not a number, it's just a, it's a rate like that I think is really important to note that it can be very scary or very confusing or very disorienting because you've spent the last 20 years only thinking about one axis, and now you have 100 doors open to you.

Yeah, it does feel like this is one of those things where you— people go too far on either extreme, and it's hard to find that, you know, Goldilocks zone. Some people just go hard making money nonstop their whole life and just get fully consumed by work, fully, you know, think highly of themselves because they exist in a work context where a lot of people admire them. You know, think about like a lot of the billionaires and famously like horrible family life and very poorly, not well-rounded people. Then the other side is kind of what you're describing, which is like people who just, they get the F.U. money and then they just check out of society. Like they have no interest in giving back. They don't, they're lost. They're aimless. They feel they have no purpose. They may have an existential crisis. And they just kind of wander the desert until they die. And obviously I don't want either of those outcomes for me, you, or anyone listening. And I think the challenge is how do you thread that middle path where you're still in the game, having fun, building something, working towards something, giving back, making the world a better place, but you're not so consumed with the markers of progress along those paths that you're money obsessed and you just can't stop saying yes to everything. And you, you know, your goal is to become a billionaire. You know, obviously this is a very large, complex topic. We're not going to solve it here today. But I think for the average entrepreneur, it's really worth thinking about early and often, which is like, what is the number at which point an extra $100K a year or $2 million in the bank or whatever your number is, wouldn't actually meaningfully change my life. And it might be closer than you think. If that's true, you need to make decisions accordingly about what you're going to do with your time and your attention.

You said a couple things that I think— you did two topics there, both of which I want to engage with. The first one to me is there's like some line about like this, you know, the same people who could retire early are unable to because what it took to get them to retire. And like, I've actually thought of— always thought about that in my mind as like a challenge. Where I'm like, I can do it. Like, meaning like, John, you've posted 25,000 times on Twitter, dude. You're so, you're so sucker. And it's just like the day that I don't need it anymore, I will never write a tweet again. Like I am like, I try to keep like my center as I ferociously work towards my goals, but I'm not a slave to them. Like, And that has always been a challenge to me, which is like, no, man, I'm just going to do the Tom from MySpace move. Or I'm going to just get so passionate about a ceramics studio, and I'm never going to think about the lower middle market post-acquisition value creation. I'm just, yeah, I'm good. No, it was just like an ex-girlfriend. It was great while we were dating, but yeah, I mean, I think of her Every now and then, but like, I don't sit in my room journaling about my ex-girlfriend.

That's a great way to think about it. Yeah. It's like, you know, it was important for a time in my life, but I didn't let it become my whole life. And now I'm at a different part of my life. And yeah, I have nice thoughts about it, but it's, that was my past. And here I am now living in the present, not, you know, and I had the same, same thing with my government career.

And I remember writing a, reading a Duffel Blog headline that like haunted me. And I really liked it. Which was— it's this— it's like The Onion, it's satirical. And it said, man joins Marine Corps for 5 years and doesn't spend rest of life talking about it. Because there's people who come out of the government who they spend the next 40 years talking about that they were— like, I want my biography to be something that is a side note. Oh, so John, you got your MBA, right? And I imagine that you started at one of the big— it's like No, man, I was in the government. I made $42,000 a year until I was like— and that idea of reinvention as you go, to me, has always been a really important part of my identity and not holding on, you know, like to be able to just say, yeah, it was— I loved it. I was good at it. Didn't have a bad experience. It's just a side— it's a footnote now for me. And I've reinvented myself enough that I feel very comfortable with that.

Sam Altman has this line on one of his old blogs about like, Every— everything you get involved with, everything you decide to get involved with, should make the entire rest of your career look like a footnote up to that point.

And I don't know if I buy that. Can I push back?

Isn't that what you just said?

No. Oh, because that to me assumes that, well, I started RL Property Management and sold it for a million dollars, so now I need to raise a fund to do $50 million. And if that works, I'm like, or you could sell RL and play around with your dad's tractor and be around for your kids and do something.

So it's kind of the opposite of what we're talking about.

Like, I, I like, that assumes that you need to go bigger at every stage and raise more and take more risk and have more employees. It's like, now if you define that as a footnote by something other than like classic business definition, like, hey, everything at RL is a footnote to what I do as a father to my two girls.

Sure.

Then I'm like, I'm redefining. It's not like I have to have more revenue at this next startup I do. Yeah. Like, so if you— I don't think he meant it like that. I think he meant it as you should just like try to start a billion-dollar company next, which is not how I think you're right.

Would you?

Yeah. Like he would, he wouldn't say like having a hobby farm is a footnote to selling a company. He'd probably say that that's right.

Do you think it's possible for an entrepreneur who like has a successful exit? I always thought, I've always thought about like, wouldn't it be nice to just like, for me, it would be like running like a little boutique window repair company and it would be like me and like one guy or something. And like, we would work on like one house at a time and we would have like this tiny little dumpy workshop in my basement or something. And like, my question is, do you think it's possible for an entrepreneur to not try to optimize that business? Like, could I actually operate a business like that and not try to grow it and make it super profitable and like get clawed, like responding to my customers? Like, cause that would ruin it. Like, that's not what it is. Like you want to have—

it's like Shop— what's the Shop Class of Soul craft, that book about like the merits of like physical repair, like low leverage, right?

Yep.

I mean, my big question is, is how many, if any, psychedelics has this entrepreneur done? Because it's a lot easier to not optimize if you're enjoying the journey and you've had a little context.

Okay.

Or therapy or breathwork or— like, if you've— if you're deliberate saying, I'm not going to do this, then I think you're fine. I think if you're just like lost, you'll probably fall back into your patterns. You know?

We're going to roll up window repair companies.

Correct.

Flip it.

There's an opportunity here. Yeah. This was explained to me by a doctor who gave me my ketamine subscription that I loved, which was— and this is not only psychedelics, to be clear. But what he said was that your mind has ski tracks through it. And what psychedelics or something similar— it doesn't just have to be that— What it does is it fills in those ski tracks with snow. But if you don't put in the work, you're going to go right back to the same ski tracks. It creates the opportunity to create new ski tracks. But if you just like sold your company and you're like, I've always fantasized about window repair, but you never did the work of kind of reorienting yourself in whatever form that takes, you're going to go right back to like, all right guys, Claude, and roll up and raise money. But if you've done the work to be like, why am I doing this because I believe in the nobility of physical labor. And, and you've done that work, you can set new ski tracks. But I think most people just stay right in the same, same dang ski tracks, right? Which is why I think it'd be hard.

I think vacations, like we were talking about the top of the show, like when you go on a vacation, some of that snow fills in the tracks a little bit. You come back, you have the opportunity to establish a new habit, do something a different way, you know, relate to your kids or your wife in a way that you kind of fell into some bad habits and now you're ready to have a fresh start. Um, so that's, yeah, but you have to put in the work, right?

And again, that could be therapy, that could be medicine, it could be whatever, right? The other thing, a little bit, it's a piece of this discussion that I liked that I want to kind of crack open with you is not every marginal dollar is the same, if that makes sense. And so I'm going to explain what we talked about, which I thought was important, and I'll try to put it in like normal terms, which is, okay, right now I make— I'll use easy numbers— I make $100,000 a year. We have a mortgage, it's paid for, kids are taken care of, family's doing great, everybody's happy, whatever. Okay. The only way for me to feel more, like, to feel better would be if I were to make $300,000 a year, or, or had another $2 million in the bank, or some number, or whatever it is, right? When you're looking at whether or not you should expend that marginal effort to make the marginal money, you need to make sure that your activity matches the scope of the next level. So if you're like, I have all the money I need, I don't want to own a second house, I— the only time that I would feel any different is if I owned a private jet.

That's it.

Other than that, I have all the money in the world.

I can already go out to eat. I already— Correct. Can pay for the nice Ubers. Like I have the clothes I want. I don't care about fancy cars. Like yeah, exactly. Like there's a huge chasm between your current lifestyle and the money it would take to meaningfully make it better.

And it could be the same thing with say, Maybe a side hustle where, look, the only way that this becomes material is this amount of money, and this side hustle is capped at this amount of money. So unless I, unless I can have my wife stop working, I'm just busier, but we weren't able to do the step function change in providing for our collective family unit or whatever it is. And so the reason why I think that's important is because when it ties back to what you're saying about like dry powder and waiting for a fat pitch, which is it is better to not do anything and stay in the game until you identify something that can get you to the step function than it is to say, Peter, here's this great thing. It's going to take up a little bit of your time and you're going to make an extra $10,000 a year. And you're like, the only time I'm going to feel any— I'm numb unless you can get me to this number or something like that. So I think it's a little bit wordy. Maybe you can help me like phrase that better.

I think the other side or the other way to look at this is to come from the other side. People, it's extraordinarily difficult to keep your work hours to like 30 a week or 20. And if you're, if you have got your business or your investments or whatever, to the point where you, you're only needed 20 hours a week, And someone does come to you with an opportunity to make an extra $10K a month. It's so hard to say no to that because you're like, well, I have plenty of time and money's money and why not? But, but I think what you're trying to articulate is you have to say no, you need to leave that space open for the opportunity that could get you to the number that would meaningfully improve your quality of life, whatever that is.

Which is oftentimes, I think it's, I'm gonna try to say this. This might not be right, that oftentimes opportunities come linearly, but when you look at upgrading your life, very often it's a step function.

Yeah. I mean, I was speaking economically there, so I don't know if you were totally following that, but yeah, I mean, that's basically what you're saying.

Yeah, it went over my head.

Yeah.

But you know what I mean? Like, oftentimes opportunities present themselves and they're linear opportunities, but the only way that you're gonna feel it within your life is with a step function increase, not a linear increase.

And so you're rare. Those don't come around every year.

That's why the fat pitches, right?

The ability to say no, no, no, no, no, day after day, week after week, month after month, sometimes for years. Keep that headspace free, keep that time in your calendar free. Then suddenly you get the fat pitch and you have the time and the space and the energy to go after it with what it will take to actually succeed. That's the challenge. The other— Hermosi calls this the woman in the red dress problem, by the way, which is what Like from The Matrix when the woman in the red dress—

oh, I know the reference, but like, what's, what's the analogy?

That like, the analogy is like every new opportunity that comes across your plate is like a woman in the red dress, and you have to have the discipline to say no. And over time she gets hotter and hotter and hotter because you have the ability to make more and more money. So the skill of saying no actually gets— you have to relearn it like every year.

So I'll give a very practical tip at the end here that really, really helped me on this because, you know, we This has been a kind of a, a, a soft, you know, not very kind of like tactical, but I have a very specific tactical thing that I did 2 or 3 years ago that totally made this easy, which was I, in conjunction with my wife, I did the first draft and then I sat down with my wife, which was I created a things I'm never gonna do list. And then I can say yes to any opportunity if it doesn't break one of my things I'm not going to do list.

Hmm.

So as an example, I wrote down, I do not want to regularly travel for business. I don't want to regularly travel for business. I will occasionally episodically do it, but I will not reg— say like every month you have to go to Cleveland for 10 days. Now, when I get presented something and somebody says, John, you can make a billion dollars. I just need you in Cleveland 2 weeks a year. Right now at this stage of my life, the answer is no, no thanks. No, thank you. It breaks one of my 10 or so. I think I wrote them like 10 or so rules, but it gives me a way that as I see these, it's like inversion. It's just like, look, it's not going to have to make me do this. And I'm not going to have to take debt out because right now the mindset of debt-free, and I don't have a bunch of retail investors who are gonna say, as, okay, it didn't break one of these, right? Okay, this is—

yep.

Like, I had certain rules that I've had. I have a list somewhere.

I definitely have a list in my head. I haven't written them down, but—

and do it, do it with your wife, because part of it is life rules too, which is, hey, John, you can't say yes to everything unless you're consistently losing weight. That was one of mine. It was like, not, I don't need to be at a certain target number, but trajectory, because an extra X amount of money per year, if you're not taking care of your body, which you know how to do, but you've said, oh, I was an entrepreneur, I can't take care of my body. We're past that point. So if it comes at the cost of your health, do not go say, right? So it's just like, it's just like, it was just inverting it made it much more practical to me instead of like kind of like a little loosey. I was like, no, no, here are the things I will not do. And as long as it fits in this box, hey, Appfolio, I'll be a consultant, but I'm doing it on the phone and it's not gonna be standing meetings. It's gonna be as needed. And if you can agree to that, I would love to be your consultant because there's some real upside here.

But yeah, that makes sense.

I like that. You're gonna make me fly to headquarters, you know? So that was like a practical implementation tool for some of the kind of softer stuff that we've talking about here that I think is, is kind of connected.

Yeah, I mean, all of this really ties into something I, I just tweeted about. So I'm back on Twitter, by the way, um, just as of like a day and a half ago. I, for whatever reason, decided it was time to come back, and they fixed the algorithm, thank goodness. So you actually see the tweets of people that you follow, and they see you. So it's great, it's been fun already. I'm, I have like a different approach to it now, which is like, I mean, I'm in like, I don't care mode anymore. Like, I'm just, yep, I don't need anything from that platform, so I'm being a little bit more like, uh, it's more fun that way. Yeah, it's a lot more fun. But I just tweeted that, um, working with Thomas— so you and I work with a financial advisor. Ironically, I've learned more about how to spend money than to save or make money from working with a financial advisor. And I think most entrepreneurs and successful executives, they get really good at the money game, meaning making money and investing money, but they suck at spending it. And there is a skill to spending money, like how to spend money without feeling weird about it, how to spend money without feeling guilty about it, how to let other people spend money in your family, how to— like, what are actually the high ROI things you can do with money that make a meaningfully positive difference in your life? Buying a fancy car is not one of those, by the way. Buying a second home might be one of those.

It might be. It might be.

No, it isn't. Bullshit.

I don't—

nobody who's ever bought a fancy car has been happy about it for more than 2 weeks, and then it's just—

no, no, no, no, you're judging now. No, no, I, I don't—

it's nonsense.

So it's nonsense for you?

For, I would say, 98% of people.

Fine. I'm just saying I'm not going to tell people what their version of freedom looks like.

I will tell them what their version of freedom is. So freedom is the only way, as they say, so America But like, there's some kind of basic stuff you can do that a lot of people just don't do. A lot of that has to do with help around the home and like—

Yeah, we've talked about this.

Yeah. And like, you feel so weird about it if you didn't grow up that way, which almost none of us did. But it's the stuff that frees up your time to do the things that you really like doing and care about doing, whether that's extra time with your spouse, extra time with your kids. Quality time with both of the above. Everyone seems to be focused on quantity of time at home with their family rather than quality of time. If you're home 50 hours a week but 48 of those are spent cleaning the house, doing the laundry, cutting the grass, fixing the lawnmower, changing your oil— like, that is not quality time. Now, if instead those things are taken care of and you can do— you can Teach your kids how to play kickball because you love doing that as a kid, but it requires time to set up the thing in the backyard and you got to hire a landscaper, whatever. But like, that's the stuff you can do once you get good at spending money. And I just think most people are horrible at spending money because they're so afraid of being perceived as, quote, bad with money, which we've all seen people who are bad with money. They live way over their means. They buy fancy cars, they go on fancy vacations. Everything's on credit card debt. And like, there's such a stigma around that, and rightfully so, that it prevents people from making— people who are making real money from spending it in ways that meaningfully improve their life.

I'm going to bring this home by quoting somebody who I have mixed feelings about, but I think summarizes this topic very well. And we can, we can wind up with that, which is Tony Robbins, who again, love some of his stuff, hate some of his stuff. I learned from everybody. But he has a great line where he says, Look, if you're in this room, it's because you've mastered the science of achievement, the science of achievement, making money, status, whatever. But what so many people in this room lack is the art of fulfillment.

Yeah.

Which is something totally different. And that's a lot of the things we talked about today, making, spending money to make your life better, saying no, contextualizing achievement in the, in the, in the wider scope of a life well lived. And so I think even just that simple definition of saying, Look, you're not listening to this podcast unless you're good at the science of achievement. Science of achievement, we love it. But the art of fulfillment to me is the other half of that, which I think is what discussions like this at least open up the chest of what's in that and start thinking about. It's a different skill set and it's a different muscle. And I can be the best in the world at the science of achievement and I might be fricking negative numbers in the art of fulfillment. And so, I think that's what conversations like this are meant to do is try to create the space for that discussion, both with yourself and with kind of friends and peers.

It's great, man. I love that. It's a great way to end it.

Thanks everybody. Like, subscribe. We're now on YouTube, so please, uh, slam us a follow. Thanks everybody.

See you next time.