Mindsets holding us back w/ Mark Brower

I pushed go live. Okay, usually it takes like a couple seconds, so I'm just going to start talking. Ladies and gentlemen, Mark Brower, Peter Lohmann, going live streaming across like multiple platforms, multiple channels. I promise you, I promise you, if you listen to this entire conversation, your life will never be the same. Okay, that was my hook.

That's a big one. We'll do what we can.

Your business will explode. You will enjoy greater levels of happiness and joy. All of it's tied together, and Peter and I are going to go deep on this stuff. You do not want to miss this. All right, let's launch into it, Peter. We got a couple topics. What do you— what's up first?

Yeah, so I think we wanted to talk about mindsets first, um, the idea of like, do I deserve to be on this stage? Do I deserve to be associating with these people, do I deserve to be working with these clients or customers? I know that's something that you and I have batted around and talked about on and off for probably a year. Um, something I think you and I have both struggled with in different ways at different times. But the more I talk to people and the more I spend time with entrepreneurs in particular, in impromptu— not impromptu, but in like, uh, private settings, the more I realize that we're all suffering from this to a certain extent, or at different phases, or in different settings. I think it's really worth pulling apart because some of the most contented memories of my life have been at moments when I somehow found peace with my contributions and my status in the world, good or bad, high or low, sort of removing judgment from it. It's very elusive for me, but, uh, so rewarding when I do get to that point once in a while.

I'm going to argue, Peter, to add to that, I'm going to argue that we are never contributing at our highest level unless we're close to that state. Because there's a certain level of desperation. Follow me with this. I went super deep with Claude AI, by the way. One of the fastest trending, like growing use cases of AI is therapy. And I love using Claude for my own therapy. And in fact, I've paid therapists to read my Claude conversations. So that's interesting.

Yeah, 'cause I didn't, you know, that's like, It's like, hey, read this and then let's go from there. I don't wanna rehash a 29-minute conversation.

Yes. And like the influence I just got from AI, like how it's shifting my thinking, like should I be like sus about this or is this like legit?

Yeah. How legit is this?

So this week, so two nights ago, I'm up at like 1 in the morning talking to Claude and I'm realizing that more than anything, I wanna feel like I belong and I deserve and that I've got worth as a human being. And those are different things, but they're connected for me.

Some of the most fundamental human desires.

Yes.

On earth, by the way, is that feeling like you belong, feeling like you're doing things right, feeling like you're— that you're like good by whatever definition your own mind has made up around that.

And why should this matter to property managers that might be watching this livestream? Because it's the absolute foundation for anything we achieve in business and in life. Is this sense of like, what is driving it? And here's, here's something that I learned this week that I— it was fascinating. By the way, one of my, um, one of my favorite ideas about, uh, the truth is what we say isn't the truth, but what we do is our truth. And so if we can get really maximally curious about how we behave and not start with the presupposition that we already know everything about ourselves but that we're actually— one of life's grandest adventures is observing how we approach life and picking up clues about the truth about ourselves. That's, that's a, that's a beautiful thing, right? And so I feel like I'm good at the observing part.

I got that down. It's very easy to me, for me to reflect back on myself in a situation or even in real time, I can observe what I'm doing and how I'm responding. The part that I'm not good at is the, is the removal of judgment, either of others or of myself. That's where I really struggle. Like, I, I feel like I'm, I'm good at noticing what's going on and what I'm reacting to and what's triggering it and everything else, but I have all of this heaviness and, and it's all tied up in I, I don't know if I can explain it very well.

It's like you're too close to it. It's like you're wearing it. It's like on you. It's like somehow like interwoven with like good, bad, like about yourself.

Yeah, exactly.

Super relatable. Yeah. You know, and, and it just— if I could like go one layer out and observe the conversation we're having, I feel like one of the most important things in life is, is the fact that we're never going to reach the final conclusion about the most important questions. And that we have the great honor.

I'm gonna find it. I'm gonna get there.

Once you do, put it in a visual framework and I'll pay you.

I'm gonna share it in Crane. That's what's gonna happen.

Too soon. Okay, so back to me two nights ago. I'm sitting there in an upstairs bedroom at my parents' house, which I'm not going into the reasons why I'm living at my parents' house right now. But it is a moment of transition for me in my life. And I'm sitting there, darker room, talking to Claude and realizing— and here's what I asked Claude. This is me trying to be super vulnerable, not just in a performative super vulnerable, but like actually vulnerable. I said, I drive a Tesla Model S Plaid that does not have the Plaid symbol on the back of the Tesla because I want to bait people into trying to race me so that I will completely destroy them. What does that say about me as a person? And not trying to judge myself, but just to be curious about that. And where I started getting was that I love to win. And I think a lot of business owners love to win. In fact, there's never been a time that I've played any game with my kids that I didn't go 100%. Because why would I disrespect them and bring anything less than my 100%? Like, like I feel like it's a great honor to show up and be measured. And then if we're found lacking, have the opportunity to try to strive to be better in that area. I love to win. I so love winning and I love winning against people that had a false expectation that they could beat me. It's so delightful to me. Now, some people could say, well, that's like super toxic. Like, like you should be ashamed of this. But it's a reality. It's part of who I am. And I think it's connected to the fact that I don't want to be weak. Okay, so there's weakness over here. There's winning that comes before it. And then what's over here before the winning? And what I started discovering, if I can remember it right now, what I started discovering is that winning is important for me. Like, I have to feel like I'm smart. And then I'm successful in business, and these things are kind of interlinked in order for me to feel like I'm winning, in order for me to feel like I'm not weak and I matter.

Well, that's a super relatable found— like, framework that I think many, or if not most, entrepreneurs also resonate with. By the way, the whole like plaid sticker not on the car thing, it's a whole subgenre called sleeper builds. Oh yeah, in the, in the auto world. That's nothing new. That's been around forever. Okay, okay, so you're in good company there with your sleeper build.

All right, so, so since you mentioned it, the license plate SLPRPLD, Sleeper Plaid.

That's right, I remember that. I've seen that. Yeah, so, but yeah, this idea of like winning, being perceived as smart, being perceived as successful, I'm, I'm sure I'm caught up in that as well. And I won't really know for sure until I slip? Like, because right now, like, I'm having a period of successes, and that's not always going to be the case. I know that for a fact. And when I do have a setback, like a major business setback or a moment of public humiliation or something in one of my businesses or with one of my partners or something, I'm going to be really curious how I react. Because what I like to think is, well, no, I'm above all that.

I transcended it.

Multi-dimensional part of my life. I have my family, I have my business, I have my friends, I have all these different things, and just because my business is, you know, I'm surely I'll be able to weather that no problem. I, you know, I've had this mental toughness and I talked to other people about how they should be, and I have this whole idea that I'm just gonna weather it fine when it inevitably happens. But time will tell, so check back in a couple years when I have a major issue. And I mean, I've got some friends and that are going through some major stuff with their businesses right now and major stuff with their family, and I see that's hitting them hard. And these are some of the smartest, most successful people that I know. So I know that it's not the case that I'm going to be immune from some of this, but I do think it's worth being proactive about trying to like diversify where you get your fulfillment and where you self-actualize. So that you're not all tied up in either business or being perceived as smart or being always winning or being athletic or whatever it is for you.

Okay, let me challenge that a little bit because you said the word diversify and, and, and I've been thinking about this as like there's a sure place of worth. And then you just said, well, and I'm putting words in your mouth. I heard you say the way I heard it was diversify where your self-worth comes from.

100%.

So, so there's less risk.

Yeah.

You know, you've diversified the idiosyncratic risk of your self-worth.

That's— yeah. Now that you're saying that, I'm realizing that you shouldn't— the ultimate would be that you don't derive worth from external factors.

There you go.

Yeah, that's the right answer.

And so, and so Warren Buffett calls this the inner scorecard, right? Oh, interesting.

Yeah.

The outcome of my session with Claude two nights ago was I had this big black foam board. It was blank in my room, and I took out my silver and my gold metallic Sharpies, and I wrote all over it these mantras that, that I want to start drilling into my subconscious that can, that can move me hopefully over time from this performance.

Weakness leaving the body.

Yeah, I'm going to put it above my door and slap it every time I walk in and out of the room. So, but here's, here's the rest of that connection and here's how else it showed up for me. And I'm curious if you've ever experienced this, maybe somebody listening or watching this part of the video. Praise you. Thank you. Thanks for being here.

It's like 6 minutes in.

I know it is. It is so hard. But you know what? But the more people that listen, the longer, the better I'm going to feel about myself as a person. So thank you for your contribution to myself.

This is all going right into our self-worth. Yes.

Here's something else that was really like, like, was like, oh my gosh, I've been doing that. And it was really insightful to me. I realized that my success in business wasn't just a nice to have. Wasn't just like, I need to have it for financial reasons. It was, I must have this to matter as a human. And the existential weight that that carries is so much that it prompts desperation. And the desperation— I'm getting the chills right now, so I know this is true what I'm saying. The desperation, the way it shows up for me and the way it's shown up for me in the last 2 years has been, I am desperate to find a savior that will make my business into the thing that it needs to be for me to matter. Yeah. Wow.

Paradoxically, the mindset that shows up when you're in that state takes you further from the goal.

Yes. Yes. And so here's what's happened as I have signaled, and I believe that we unconsciously signal all the time to everybody around us, like, like Yeah, we're so silly that we think that all these games are just showing up in our mind and our heart.

So cold callers have a name for this. I've been watching this cold calling guy on YouTube, he's so good. He says when you show up with that desperation on a cold call, it never works. And it's such a common thing that sales guys do on a cold call that they call it, um, they call it commission breath. That's what they call it in that industry. Um, it's that desperation that shows up and It destroys your status, it destroys your framing, it destroys your credibility, and you'll never make a sale if you show up with that sort of— they say breath because it's just something about the way you're showing up that you can sense it even over the phone, right? Even within 10 seconds.

I've been showing up with self-worth breath. And you know what it did? You know, here's one of the things it did. Than I can point a direct finger to. I hired a fractional chief marketing officer.

I remember talking to you when you hired this guy, by the way.

Yes. Yeah, thank you. Sometimes I'm a slow learner. 2 months in. No, no, no, no. Okay, let's be honest. 2 weeks in, I should have known it wasn't working. It wasn't the right fit. There were some very early significant misses that I chose to ignore. Why? Here's why. He knew exactly what to say to me. It's like I was telegraphing, he was smelling my self-worth breath, and then, and then filling my ears with exactly what I wanted to hear.

Some people are really good at that.

He was masterful. I don't even know if this was intentional or just intuitive for him. Yeah, this relationship went 10 months And not only did I waste the time and money working with him, I also suffered a major setback in my website SEO presence, like lost years of momentum because of a botched migration to a new site. Um, and I lost at least $20,000 on pay-per-click ad campaigns.

So let me divert you for a second because it sounds like you've learned a painful lesson about SEO.

I—

so we're currently on rlpmg.com, RL Property Management Group. I hate it, the domain, it's too many letters. And so I actually purchased— I paid 4 figures for rlpm.com. We own that domain now, it should redirect. Love the domain and I want to switch everything, but from what I understand, if you If you switch domains, no matter how carefully you do it, you lose all your SEO juice and you're starting over. Is that right?

Wow.

Is that what you tried to do?

No, I kept my stinking domain. We just screwed up everything. We just— there was hundreds of broken links. There was like tags that were like, I don't even want to— it's like too painful for me to like be honest.

Never mind. Maybe someone watching this will let me know.

Yeah. Okay, good. So, so, so let's back to this self-worth breath. If I have self-worth breath, that's, that's, I'm getting that from you. Commission breath translated into like the desperation that if my business doesn't succeed, I'm not intelligent, I don't matter, and I don't belong. So when someone can smell that on me, am I more prone or less prone to being manipulated?

100% more.

100%, 1,000% more prone to being manipulated. Am I, am I a more convincing, like, integrated, like, you know, leader that people want to follow or less so? Way less so. It's like, it's like, so, so, okay, well, I've identified the problem. I've identified what I don't want. But sometimes when we think about what we don't want, it just gives it more fuel and energy, right? So, so what is the, what is the north star? I can start, what is, what are the, what are the mantras I can write down on my, on my poster board and put it above my door and slap it every time that, that, that orient me toward the direction I want to be, which is having a grounded self-worth in here's, here's some ideas. Let's riff on this. My divine origin. You know, I'm religious. I believe that I'm a son of God. That doesn't—

burned down, by the way.

Um, well, it was in Michigan, but, you know, I was— that was me saying this.

Oh, okay. This is like, you know what I'm saying? Okay. Yeah, I saw a thing on Facebook. I was like, what the heck?

Yeah, yeah. I, I reposted one of them on my LinkedIn. I thought that's what you're referring to, and I said, this is my church.

Yeah. Okay.

So, uh, divine origin.

Can't—

yeah. That's like the deepest well of worth, right? Like that's always springing up. Guess what? The fact that I'm here, I'm showing up. The fact that I'm willing and committed and that I embrace good values, like these things never— those wells never run dry. Should that be the locus of our worth? Could we shift our worth all the way there so that when we show up in the arena, Teddy Roosevelt, Man in the Arena, one of my favorite all-time quotes: when we show up in the arena, we don't question whether we belong there. We're bringing everything. We're risking everything because none of it matters to our existential reality, to our existence. Your reflections?

I mean, yeah. I think I agree. I think my journey has been— so like, my struggles are a lot different than yours, but they share a similar theme. I've got— right now I'm not struggling with business stuff. It's more personal. It's more about like, am I a good dad? Am I a good husband? Am I— you know, doing everything I should be doing for my family. I think about that stuff a lot, and it really, um, you know, it kind of chews at my soul a little bit. And then what's interesting though is if I reflect back a couple years and I think about the me that existed 2 years ago and what he was doing for his family and how he was showing up, I'm very willing. I'm willing to be so forgiving and accepting of that Peter. And I'm like, no, that, that guy was doing great given everything that was going on, given his, my background and everything else. I'm proud of how he worked to show up and, and do what he was able to do. He did the best he could and that's what happened.

I— can we pause? Can we pause on that for a quick— because I think there's something really significant about that. Um, I think it's an incredible thing that you have love and acceptance for your former self.

It— but what's interesting though is like the closer we get to the present, the less willing I am to grant myself that forgiveness and acceptance.

Is this a rolling— is this a rolling 2 years?

Yeah, it's like a rolling 2 years. So the me of a year ago was kind of a little bit more lazy, a little bit kind of not doing everything he really could have been doing. And the me of today is obviously just completely out for himself, very selfish. A lot of other things you could be doing, ways you could be leading, things you could be— I don't know, it's just an interesting dynamic of like the distance gives me permission to give myself some forgiveness, but it's kind of what I referred to at the beginning of the show. Like, I, uh, I have moments where I do have this radical self-acceptance of the present me, and those things— that happens like twice a year in some, and it's hard to predict what will trigger that feeling in me, but it is, uh, jumpmaster watching this. Um, it is such an interesting phenomenon, and it's a more recent thing. Like, only in the last few years have I even experienced this brief, you know, moments. But, um, what do you think? Have you— how does that hit you?

Well, what— how that hits me, and the reason I, I wanted to stop and acknowledge the, the love for past self, is, man, there's been times when I look back years and I've been like like massive cringe factor. Like, what? Who, who, who was that guy? Like, I am so embarrassed that was me. Like, oh my gosh, I was so freaking clueless, you know?

And you were young, you were operating with the best knowledge that you had at that moment.

Okay, what you're saying right now, Peter, is a beautiful thing. It really is. And, and it's not and it's not anywhere close to universal, and that's why I want to make a point of it. This idea of loving our past selves and accepting our past selves and giving grace to our past selves, I think there's something really important about how that integrates, unifies, uh, that level of processing and acceptance, I think, is, I think, brings a lot of power to the present. But I am fascinated how this is like a sliding scale for you, how it's like the closer you get to the present.

Yeah.

So, so, okay, well, let me ask you this question. Is it possible that there's just a huge amount of judgment in the present and, and, and like, and then it just, and it just starts tailing immediately?

I think that's exactly what's going on. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, bringing it back to business, like The idea of like, because I run into property management operators and small business owners all the time who in one way or another, in so many words, they basically say like, I'm not even sure I should be here, or I, I'll never get to where you are, but, or, you know, I could never do XYZ. That mindset of there's these other people and then there's me. If I could grant one power to every colleague, peer, business owner, person I meet, it would be to level that in their mind and understand and recognize that we're all the same. And the things that some people have figured out and are on stage talking about you also know just as much about something else and could deliver just as much value as the people that you're sort of putting on a pedestal. And so it's, you know, it can be hard to find what that is and figure out how to articulate it in a way that resonates with other people. But the more you spend time with very accomplished, successful people, the more you realize that They're the same as you and I. They're just a little further along, or they figured out something a little earlier, or they found something that worked for them and were willing to go hard on it. Um, so that— I try to really encourage people when I run into them at conferences or when they email me to keep at it, because there was a lot of people who did that for me. And I know you and I have talked about this as well. Yeah, there's people that helped me realize that same thing.. And that was the encouragement I needed to keep going, which has turned into a lot of what people now see publicly. But it started very small and very boring and no one read or saw hardly anything. But there was a couple people that did and just emailed me or responded to my tweets and were like, this is really great. Like, keep going.

Yeah, I know we share one of those people. It's Jordan Moya. When I started trying to post more reels like a year and a half ago, he once He made, he made the effort and, and he and I have not been in constant communication over the years. Like, like I, I helped very early on with some, you know, client feedback for LeadSimple. It was called Lead Connector at the time. And so we were, but over the years, you know, not a lot of contact. And then, and then he popped into my inbox and said, I love that you're doing this. Keep going. Yeah. You did this.

All the people in a room who've gotten like a keep going email from Jordan Mailer, it would be like an all. Time, you know, like best hits.

Yeah, but okay, but I want to challenge this a little bit if you're willing, and if not, let's just, just flip it and we'll go on to the next topic. But what you just said is predicated on this, uh, this underlying assumption that I need to be smart in something to matter, and you're just shifting. And I'm imagining the argument that people are having in their head: no, Peter, No, you don't know me. If you did, you know, I really don't have that expertise in anything, but I'll just nod my head and smile because I want to disagree with you because you're trying to be like, you're trying to like build me up. The whole premise behind this, I think, is weak, that you have to be smart in something to matter.

Well, you don't. All lives have value. Everyone matters. But in the context of a business function or discussion. Now, if you just started your management company 2 weeks ago, like, okay, you don't matter. But what's interesting though is like, there is actually something unique even in that perspective, because beginner eyes are something you can never get back. 100%.

So, you know, you're an expert on yourself, you're an expert on all your life experience that brought you to this moment, which is by far the biggest and most important part of your brand and your ability to serve other people. You're the expert.

Nobody else knows that. Alex Hormozi just put out a tweet or something that was like, the niche is you. Yes, your intersection of skills and experience and perspectives. Like, if you tap into that, that is your true sort of undefeatable niche.

You know what, you know what's really interesting? When you said that just now, and, um, it made me think that just this idea of scaling a business really large, it's almost like We're going for like some kind of a, like, like an out-there solution that would allow growth and scale. The solution has always been internal. It's just how do we magnify that? How do we, how do we scale that in the way that only we can? Like, like, like, like the premise that like there's some knowledge or there's some tool or there's some process or there's some automation or there's, there's something out there that's going to unlock like the recipe that we're all trying to find. Yeah, to scale is wrong, right? It's actually, it's actually mostly predicated on like amplifying who we already are.

Yeah. Um, let's talk a little bit about community. Uh, so, oh, hey Steven! Steven's in the comments here. Good to see you, man.

Also, we got Julian.

We got Julian in here. It's great. Looking up a Keep Going DM he got from Jordan. That's so good. So let's talk a little about community. Um, so Crane applications are open right now. You're a Crane member. You were just texting me last night about Crane member, basically like the insane value that you're getting from Crane, even though you don't even take advantage of everything that's in there.

I know.

Um, I'm— I didn't really set out like— I don't think of myself as like a community guy. Like, I wasn't for years like, it's all about community. Like, that wasn't me. There are people who are like that.

You're not the football coach. You're not—

you're not— way before me. But there is something a little magical that's been happening inside Crane, and I wonder if we could tease apart what's working. About either the offering or the value or the setup that's causing leaders to join and stay and collaborate and meet up, because it feels a little bit like lightning in a bottle. We did not know that it was no guarantee when Wolf and I announced it, you know, prepay for a year. It was a pretty big risk. So I'm curious, as a member, what are you seeing, or what are your reflections on how we're doing this that are interesting and maybe relevant for somebody. Because like, the thing I always think about with Crain is like, what I really should have done is figured out Crain 10 years ago but done it for RL Property Management. Like, community— a paid community for property owners in my— in Central Ohio with the same level of value delivery and same level of exclusivity and same level of collaboration and online-offline component Like if that could be figured out, think how incredible it would be if you controlled the crane of your local real estate investing sphere, which, you know, there's a couple like Mark Ainley comes to mind as somebody who's absolutely killed it with social and media and podcasts and influence in his local area. Yeah. So I don't know, that was a lot of different thoughts and ideas. Tell me what you're thinking.

Well, part of what I think is the lightning in the bottle Um, of course, and I've shared this with you before, is, um, it— well, of course it's you, you know, you and Wolf. It's, it's your ability to balance vision and integration, um, which is really cool to see. Um, I think part of it also is, um, your commitment. Going back to like, like, like where we should base our self-worth, like if we can base it on commitment, that's way better than intelligence or some kind of arbitrary achievement, right? It's your commitment to continuously driving greater and greater value, right? And so you and I, I was in an Uber with you earlier this year in Southern California going to a Crane dinner. And you mentioned to me like, I'm always trying to think, like, it's always on my mind, what could I do to bring more value to the Crane members?

North Star is member value. Which actually, I got to tell you, is so easy and refreshing compared to property management where you always have this tension between owner and tenant. Yes. Like you can move the window back and forth between them, but you can't really make that pie very much bigger. Yeah, there's some triple win opportunities. Hello, Second Nature, great partner. Love you guys. There are a few triple win opportunities. They're so rare we gave them a special name. But with Crane, I only have one customer, and I get to obsess over delivering value for that one specific customer, and I don't have to balance that against this whole other group whose interests are literally directly opposed in, in many cases.

Point made, point made. I'm going to take anybody that's listened this far into this, this recording, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take you to a moment in time. I'm in the bottom of the Grand Canyon with Peter Lohmann. Um, he's walking ahead of me. We're walking at the bottom of the Grand Canyon, literally the bottom of the Grand Canyon, all the way down, all the way down. We're in the bottom of the Grand Canyon, and he and I are walking up this hill that ironically was unnecessary to walk up.

We didn't know that, but yeah.

Because we took the long route. Um, everyone— everybody else took a shortcut that we didn't know existed. We left our packs at a certain point, we had to go back from. So then, so we're walking up this hill and, um, Peter and I are talking about how difficult property management is. And then I think it was at that moment you said, you know, and you've said this to me twice now this year, it's like, who do you want to be the hero for?

And who do you want to serve?

Who do you want to serve? Who do you want to serve? And I think, uh, not a small part of what's unlocked a lot of creativity, a lot of work, a lot of effort, maybe even a little obsession on your part, is you love serving the property manager.

Yeah, I do. So much more than Johnny duplex owner in Columbus, Ohio. So much more.

I know, I know, I know. And yeah, and that love— that— here's the thing, like, and I, you know, it's— I'm like, you know, I'm worried that somebody's like, oh yeah, you know, Mark's getting really kumbaya about this. But that, that love, like, it comes through. It, it comes through. It's sincere. You really— I'm not just trying to like build you up here like for whatever other reason. You and Wolf care about the plight of the property manager, like, like in a way that transcends money, I would say. And, and when that, when that shows through a community you're building, um, I think that if that's the foundation that undergirds everything, and I know it's there because you're obsessing about creating more and more value Like that has opened up your best energy, right, to build something. And I think that's, that's the predicate for everything that follows.

Agreed. And I feel really lucky that I found who I wanted to serve because it's not a given. You know, my first guess was Johnny Duplex. Right? That's, you know, we started the property management company and I thought, yeah, I really want to help these property owners with their properties. And of course I do still like doing that, and the whole, you know, RO Property Management is very much a going concern— 720 doors under management, growing. And I still care a lot about getting those details right, but I've also brought in people who care even more than I do about property owners and tenants and seeing that whole you know, congruence of value. But I care more about property management business owners because I just, I, I resonate on the same wavelength that they do. I'm one of them and I empathize with them and I know what they go through. And I just love, you know, you hear people talk about like property management business owners as being like salt of the earth. They're just hardworking, good-natured kind, you know, type of people who'd stop and help you on the side of the road if your car was broken down. And smart, just don't mess around, no nonsense. It's just, yeah, I just vibe with them. And trying to take a little bit of what I've figured out here and there and make it available in a format that makes sense has been really rewarding.

Do you think Do you think you could have built Crane without building a property management company first?

Probably not. I think now that I've done it, I think I could pair up with somebody else in a different domain who was an expert and we could together build like the Crane of chimney guys or whatever. But I would think you— I think you need— I talk about this with John Matzner all the time, like what's the ingredient that are actually required. Some combination of distribution, influence, and expertise. In what proportion those things are actually needed, I don't know for sure, because I kind of had a little of all of those things, which— but, but I don't think you need all three, and I just don't know which ones.

Like, like, like if you look at Hamden or Entrepreneur Organization, yeah, they're not necessarily bringing inherent, like, niche expertise, right? They're more of a, like a, like a— it's a cohesion of it. You know what's fascinating to me is people volunteer their time for entrepreneur organization.

You know, we've had people volunteer for Crane, like paying members have reached out and said, how can I give back? How can I contribute? How can I collaborate? It blows my mind. Because I already feel like, hey, you guys are paying money. Like, you don't owe us a thing. Like, we owe you. We— to make sure we're delivering on the value and everything else. Like, the idea that they would then feel this obligation over and above that to help out actually broke my brain a little bit the first time it happened. And then it happened again, and that happened again. Wolf and I haven't figured out yet the best way to channel that energy because we do think there's something interesting there. But we, you know, I don't want to like, I don't want to tell people get lost, but I also don't want to be like, all right, well, yeah, I'm going to give, I'm going to assign you 15 hours of unpaid work every week. I'm sure there's some interesting things like there, obviously there's volunteer organizations all over and NARPM is a volunteer organization. So yeah, it's something worth thinking about.

It is worth thinking about. I think it's really worth thinking about. I think it's tremendous that that's channeling through. If anything, that like validates the value of that community where people are willing to not only pay to be part of it, but to pay additionally with their time to build it up and contribute. There's something really significant there. You tried something early on, maybe this is still going and I'm just like clueless, of grouping people within Crane into masterminds. Tell me about that experiment.

Yeah, so once you start to get more than 10 or 20 or 30 people, you start to think, how do I, how do I structure things so that every member gets the maximum value they can out of the group? Sure. Because 180 people in a room, virtual or real world, it's difficult to— like, how do you pair people up? Chunk it down. Yeah. And, you know, there's different ways you could do this. You could geographically group people. You could have like sections of the US, which is kind of what NARPM's done. You could segment people by size, so like 100 to 200 doors over here, 200 to 400 doors over here, and kind of group those people into masterminds. So Profit Coach, of course, has grouped people by profitability, which is really interesting. They've grouped them by profit dollars, not profit percent. So if you make between $0 and $100,000 of profit, you're in the 100K club at Profit Coach. If you make between $100,000 and $250,000 a year in profit, you join the $250K Club, and they will go all the way up to the Million Dollar Club. It's very interesting, and actually it's highly motivating. In fact, I still have— when I joined Profit Coach years and years and years ago, they put me in the $250K Club because I was between $100,000 and $250,000, and they gave me this like trophy thing, and it has sections for these like bars that can be added. And I got like the member and the 100K club and the 250K club, but there was like kind of a shadow behind it that you could see there were these other bars you could add on to get to the 500 and the million dollar club and stuff. And it was so, and to this day, this was like 5 or 6 years ago, to this day I'm motivated by that. I will hit that million dollar club. I haven't done it yet. And, and I'll email them back at that time and be like, all right, put me in the Million Dollar Masterclass.

There's something fascinating here. And this, okay, this connects with the Crane Pen, right? Because there's different colors and you talk a lot about that. And yes, and I want the green border. I want the green border.

The coveted green border. That's a 4-week crane break.

And by the way, like, if I'm going to get too scattered here because I got too many thoughts going right now, but one of the brilliant things that you've done is you've introduced Crane Pass. Which means you are giving back a lifetime half-price discount. It's not a discount, but a half-price benefit to anybody that achieves the green pin, hosts a Crane dinner, and like 2 other things. And I'm thinking like, oh dude, I'm almost there, you know? Yeah. There's something about having a physical object that exists in the real world that has permanence that like, like it carries the profit coach thing. Yeah, that carries significant weight, that tethers us to like a meaningful—

I'm gonna grab it while you chat. I still have it.

Okay, okay, wants to show it. That tethers us to a meaningful idea, goal, outcome. Peter's getting his, um, Profit Coach physical object.

Here it is. Oh, you can see that there's room for more up here. Oh, they gave me a little handout that showed the other ones you can get. I don't know if they're still doing this or not.

Beautiful. I love the way that sounded. I thought those were stickers first. I love that they're not stickers, they're metal.

Oh yeah, it's a really nice thing.

I want that.

It made a huge impact on me, as you can see when I got this.

Holy cow. Yeah, first of all, I've never seen Peter take his headphones off mid-recording and run and get something.

That's Crane Partner Profit Coach. We love those guys.

Yes. Okay. There's something meaningful here. Also, one of the ways my brain went like 5 ways all at once in the last 3 minutes or 5 minutes here was you said you're wondering, you're curious about this idea of like, what would it take to start other communities? It's been such a powerful thing. Profitable, value-driving, passionate, valuable, like all those things, like lots of boxes checked. And is there room for other communities? There's a huge demand for community, right? There's a huge unmet need in community. And perhaps, perhaps there's only a rare few, perhaps. So it's undersupplied, but maybe it's a rare skill set or a rare combination of factors that makes it possible, right? Um, and, and this idea that, that you, like, you're curious that maybe RL property management should have leaned way into community, like, 10— like, what would have happened? The reason that's really exciting and fascinating to me is it may address organically what I see as one of the biggest problems in property management. If we're getting too far off on a tangent you don't care about, pull me back. But let me just share this: the transition from accidental, inexperienced landlord with like, like short-term thinking, not thinking like a business owner, not thinking like a business leader— this is the primary pain point in our business. What if a community could educate itself and police itself and bring not only with social proof but also a little healthy peer pressure people along that path and solve that problem for us?

So we tried, we, we copied the Profit Coach thing and we start, we mailed, let me grab it, we mailed it out to new owners. So you're talking about competition.

Peter's getting something else that he tried to emulate this community idea.

The achievement did not work. I don't think it worked, but we did it for like over a year.

So this is in the graveyard of ideas that didn't work.

So here's the RL Property Management version, like, congratulations on your real estate investment. Here's to your future success. And there's like pin, like same idea, but for different number of units under management. I don't know if I've ever talked about this or showed it. Wow, look at this. Yeah. So like the idea is to incentivize people just like the Profit Coach thing to move up as an investor. And so we mailed out just like Profit Coach did. Every new client got this and they got the appropriate number of, you know, things here.

Oh, I like that.

It really just didn't work. I mean, we never heard anything from clients. We never, No one ever mentioned it, but maybe it was because it was missing the community, the community aspect of it. We had no community anything tied to it at all, unlike Profit Coach. So maybe there is something there in our post-COVID virtual world.

It seems like the groundwork, the soil is fertile for community building like it never has been before.

One thing that's interesting though, and I want to get your feedback on this, is We do get members and prospective members reaching out who are like, I don't have time for something new, I'm not going to be able to contribute, or I haven't been able to participate. And I'm always thinking like, well, it's interesting because they are sensing some type of obligation to participate and give to the community, but I actually don't I don't care if they do that. I love when people do, of course, and people like you and others like really show up and participate and are very vibrant members of our community. But for people who aren't, which is actually the majority of membership, I think, um, all I care about is that they get the value from the offerings that we have. And we have a bunch of different offerings within Crane, like benefits.

We should talk about that before we wrap up. What do you think? It's part in part, Peter, because people know, sort of intrinsically know, that to get the most value from something, you have to give to it.

There must be something there. But like, it's weird because part of what I— how I think about Crane is like, you know, you just got an Amex Platinum or whatever, right? It comes with a suite of member benefits that more than pays for the annual membership fee. Yes, that's how I think about Crane too. Yes, I want the suite of offerings to more than pay for the annual membership fee. And, you know, with Amex, like, you don't feel an obligation to get on the Amex forums or show up to some Amex customer feedback thing. You're just like, no, like, I just get the benefits. Like, I don't need to participate as a member of some community for this to be worth it or for this to be interesting.

Okay, I want to take a quick detour and This is real quick. Enterprise, your latest Crane member. I am super jazzed about this. They are like, because you're layering all this American Express Platinum, or like my son recently signed up for T-Mobile and he's like, Dad, look at all this stuff I signed up for. It more than like covers the cost of my cell phone bills. Like, this is genius. Yeah, this is like, like, uh, Enterprise for Crane members gives the analysis account Okay. What does that mean? Can you break that down?

Yeah. So, you know, enterprise members are familiar, but for those who aren't, just briefly, Enterprise Bank is a huge participant in property management. We use them. Yeah, they're trust accounting experts. And what's really interesting about the trust account products that they have is they have these things called earnings credits, which is kind of like interest, but it's not interest. So you earn credits for the more money you have with Enterprise.

I get like $4,000 a month. It's not a small amount of money.

Yeah, it's— yeah, we're not talking $20 a month. Yeah, $4,000 a month for you at, you know, 600, 700 doors. And you can use those credits to offset invoices for companies like LeadSimple and Second Nature.

Like Crain. Like Crain. It can completely pay for Crain.

Yes. So now not only can your analysis credits pay for your Crain membership, But Crane members specifically have access to a version of that same program, but without the fees offsetting the credit.

So what are those fees usually? It's like a few hundred bucks, right?

A few hundred bucks every month.

Like $200 or $300 a month.

Wolf just told me it's $200 or $300 just for him. And he's smaller than we are.

I think. Okay, so, so this is where, this is where I'm going with this. Me, my business, this one benefit you just added. Completely pays for Crain.

Everything else is gravy.

Twice. Twice. Because I can use my— I can use my enterprise credits to pay for it, which I'm— if I'm not— that I see— how many people do I see at the end of the year like, oh shoot, I gotta— I've got extra credits, I gotta use it.

Exactly.

Okay, so if you've got unused credits, it pays for it. Now you also don't pay the fees for your analysis monthly. Pays for it twice.

It's crazy. And of course they have a whole bunch of other benefits even for non- If you don't bank with Enterprise, they provide some other really interesting offerings as well.

We can, you know, definitely should look at them.

Yeah. In my emails and stuff. But yeah, it's really cool.

Okay. So back to this idea that, you know, people feel this obligation. I just don't have the time. I can't contribute. Like even at the most passive level, there could be tremendous benefit, right?

Exactly. And I want to get that across, but I also don't want to discourage people obviously from participating in the community. So I hope we're offering some of the best of both worlds for people who want to get plugged in and find their people. We have that for other people who just like, hey, I'll take the enterprise credits. I'll do hiring with Sagan twice a year for RTMs for free. That pays for the whole thing and then some, and maybe I'll show up to the cruise once a year or whatever.

By the way, for anyone who, like me, I'm going to share part of my experience. I heard about this Sagan benefit. And I'm not a super detailed guy. I'm like, ah, I don't want to have to figure that out. You know, like nobody on my team's going to figure that out. Ergo, I'm just not going to like, I'm just not going to tap into that. I'm sure there's something there, but I've got somebody, I've got something that, that ain't broke over here where I've like, you know, hired remote talent through this other guy at $13 to $14 an hour, but the placements have been excellent, you know? And, and so I just didn't even look into it. But, but guess what? There's a bridge. There's a bridge. You have Dani, full-time employee for Crane, and I should just be willing to use Dani like a fractional executive assistant.

Exactly. She's there to help members get the value.

Yeah, there you go.

So, so Dani's our full-time community manager. It's literally her job to interface with members.

She's very friendly. Very accessible, very responsive. Like, it's, it's fantastic. It's, it's like you signed up for American Express Platinum and then you have a cell number of someone that, like, not only knows who you are but cares and, like, can plug you into maximizing your benefits.

And she shows up to the live events. She flies up from Mexico. So, like, she's met many, many of our members. She's very tuned into what's happening with property management now because been with us for over a year. Yeah. Let me get your take on this other benefit we just are announcing. We are— we paid— we're absorbing $20 grand, $20 grand a year to get access to the best local regulation tracker that we could find. This company that specializes in like parsing city council meeting notes and like categorizing everything. So you can now— well, shortly you'll be able to subscribe to specific cities or zip codes or whatever. And then any time there is a proposed or passed legislation having to do with landlord-tenant laws or regulations, you'll get an email and you'll be notified like, hey, this is going on. Yeah. And dude, for us, even just for me, this is huge because we have— there's of course the city of Columbus, but then you have all these other cities There's like 15 other little cities around that are all in our service area, all doing their own crazy weird stuff with landlord-tenant laws. Security deposits and tenant screening and all of this stuff. I can't even keep up with it. So I just need to know, like, what are these people talking about? What are they passing? What are they proposing? Maybe we could at least even get in front of it. So I'm really excited for members to be able to sign up and get notified before some of the stuff actually becomes law. Becomes law.

Yeah, um, I think it's useful. I think for me, pragmatically, I mean, I think it varies based on where you're, where you're operating.

Sure.

Yeah, I think, I think operators in blue states, this is like much more value. I'm kind of a purple state here in Arizona, massive county, so we just have like one or maybe two counties to deal with. And there's only sort of like down in Tucson, you know, they're doing some stuff at the city level, but it's pretty rare up here. City of Phoenix passed something that was like, you know, Section 8, you couldn't like discriminate based on source of income. So, so that's important. If I could find a way of like pulling that data straight into a newsletter that shows how connected I am to directly to my clients and, and like proves value.

Totally. So yes, not only is it city and county, but it's state as well. And so you will be able to just take that digest that you're going to get and write into a client newsletter. Here's what you need to know about landlord-tenant law in Phoenix.

Yeah, I think that's valuable.

Yeah, I think we could even— I'm sure, because Wolf is all over this type of thing, he'll probably create two versions of it. One of, one of it will be like for you, the property manager, to read and consume. He'll probably use AI to be like, rewrite this such that it's written for property owners in this county that could be copy-pasted into a property manager's newsletter, and you'll be able to like subscribe to that one too, so that you can have that.

I'm never gonna spend the time figuring out how to, like, the very simplest process of, like, automating that into a newsletter, but I aspire to have a team that can do that.

Oh, that's totally something a team member should do for you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Peter, this has been a fascinating conversation.

Yeah, we're at an hour.

That went by fast. We are. Yeah, it just blew by. We started with, like, existential crisis and we ended with community. So I think we came full circle. That was really good. One more thought I had about sort of this idea of like giving to community. Heaven forbid somebody says like, oh my gosh, the price tag of Crane is so high. And then they show up like demanding like, where's my value? I heard this thing, I think Alex Hormozi shared this like last year at some point. He at one point spent like 20 or 30 grand joining a mastermind community. And he was part of like this incoming class of people. And he pointed out, he made the observation that there were, there were a fair number of people in his class that had this mindset of like, okay, I paid my $30 grand. Now where's my value? Like, like, and, and what he did is he took an entirely different approach. And this sort of correlates with this idea of like the, the, the people feel this need to give. He, he went in thinking like, these are potentially really valuable contacts for me. What can I give to as many people as possible? What's the highest value I can bring to as many people as possible in this mastermind and put a blank check from them to me in my back pocket?

Interesting.

Yeah, right. This is a total paradigm shift. And I will tell you that because of my involvement in Crane, because I know you, because I've put myself in the rooms that I, you know, didn't feel like I belonged in, but I wanted to be in. Um, I've been able to learn from some of the best and brightest minds. And not only are people just generous with their time and their sharing, I've had so many offline conversations directly with CRANE members that were really probably like $1,000 consult calls that were just free to me. But if I do a better job going forward, or if any incoming member tries to contribute as much as they can. Um, like, be active in the forum, give comments, like, like, offer to share, you know, documents that you've created in your business. Like, when, when, when you do that sort of thing, it opens up that reciprocity, and the reciprocity benefit coming back is at least 10 to 1, 20 to 1, 100 to 1, right?

Yep. Awesome stuff. So if you're interested, current applications are open right now. They only open twice a year and they close on October 8th. And we're pretty strict about that. In fact, we just had somebody apply who missed the application window last time by like 2 days. And I felt bad. I was like, I know, but we have to hold to our— we got to stick to our guns just to be fair to everybody. So get your applications in. It's 150-door minimum to apply. And thank you, Mark, for hosting me and letting me have this conversation.

This is a lot of fun. We're going to do more of this next year. Peter's already told me we're going to do more. All right, thanks everybody, take care. All right.