Strategic Leadership Lessons with Cathy Gainer: How Great Operators Think | Peter Lohmann's Podcast

You're, you're very clear about what you want the business to be and where you want it to go. And I think that's an important thing for CEOs. A lot of times they're, they're very reactionary. And when I see a business that there's a lot of chaos, a lot of disorganization, it's really not anyone's fault, but it's a reflection of the CEO's brain. There is so much going on, so many things having to deal with. Where you are very strong at being very clear, very linear. There's a path. And I think that brings comfort to the team. Again, it adds to the feeling that we've got a really strong leader steering the ship. Whether it's you or any other CEO that I deal with, you gotta be laser beam. You can't be buckshot. A laser beam makes you be all things to all people, and you kind of jack of all trades. You're not doing anything one thing really well. Really well.

Welcome back to Peter Lohmann's podcast. Special guest today. Welcome to the show, Kathy. How are you?

Thanks, Peter. I'm great. Things are going well. How about you?

Things are going well. So my guest today is Kathy Gaynor, my former COO of RL Property Management., and we're going to get into all kinds of fun stuff today. We're going to talk about your experience at RL. We're going to talk about your experience prior to RL and sort of what you saw coming into a property management company and what you've been up to since then. I think you've got some really great insights. So maybe to kick things off, I'd love to have you just give like a 2-minute background on yourself just so people have a little bit of context. And then I want to ask you about joining RL and sort of what that was like?

I started out in the day on the buying side for a retailer and decided pretty quick that if I ever wanted to make any money, I had to go on the selling side. So I got involved in wholesale costume jewelry and worked for companies like 1928 Jewelry Company and Klein Jewelry Company. And so then I went on in sales and, and became a VP of sales for Klein Jewelry and really liked that, but Had to stay home a couple years with kids as we sometimes have to make that decision when they were little, right decision for our family. And then when I got back into it, kind of had to start over 'cause retail had really changed and decided I wanted to get involved on the wholesale side as well as manufacturing. So that was the first time I went into a COO role at Bosca and kind of worked my way up there to president of the company over my about 8 years there. Mm-hmm. And then I had my own business for about 7 years. So again, kind of a retail experience. And that's when I learned that I don't like being number one. So we'll talk about that in a little bit. And then kind of continued on the COO side. I flipped back and forth between COO and sales. And one day I was working and decided it was time to leave that company. They were facing some real uphill stuff and just decided it was best for my career and really wanted to get involved in a business that did EOS. Yeah. And so I went online and saw a posting from RL Property Management Company and I thought, hmm, I don't know them, but they do EOS. So you and I connected and really liked the vibe and talked about EOS and all the things and went to work at RL. And it was probably, it was the best experience I think I had career-wise, which is really ironic having it come at the end of your career. But perhaps you don't realize the— you don't realize what makes a good company until you have all these other experiences to compare it to.

Yeah, that makes sense. Well, I appreciate those kind words about RL. So you joined RL at a really interesting time because you joined— when was it? What year? It was 2021?

That's probably right. It was kind of just as COVID was Declining, I think.

And I was just shortly after you joined, I did my first ever month off for June. So that was kind of happening and we'll talk about that. And then you were my first sort of what I think of as like a true executive hire. And at that time I didn't know about using recruiters. And so I just did it on my own. And you were also one of the first hires to go through our full Predictive Index, WHO method for hiring, structured interview process. So I was really sort of, because I was sort of terrified to bring on a high, high-level, you know, executive with a bunch of experience. I wanted to make sure that I found the right person and that I was sort of worthy of, you know, that type of person coming in and working for me. I wanted to make sure the opportunity was good enough. So I was cutting my teeth on a lot of those things for the first time as you went through that interview process. We looked at your predictive index and you, you know, we use those very structured format of questions that they recommend for that WHO method of hiring in the book. But it all worked out. You ended up working, you know, for us for years and really helped get the company into a totally different place. And I think it was a great experience for both of us. At least I know it was for me.

So it was absolutely for me too.

Yeah. The question that I. And I know that you and I have talked about this once or twice before, but it never ceases to interest me. What is, what is property management like relative to other industries? Because you had worked, you know, in retail and you owned your own business. So you had been around the business world for a while in a lot of different sectors. What strikes you about property management, both the customers, the culture, you know, how easy or hard is it to make money or to grow? I love the fact that you sort of came into it with fresh eyes.

Yeah. Compared to other businesses that I've been involved in, which have been mostly consumer goods, I've had some service, but mostly consumer goods. I think property management comes with a layer of compliance, tenant rights, legal obligations that one are on a day-to-day basis, right? So it's not just, I have to create this widget and this widget has to comply to what standards here's what the standards are, and now I'm gonna go make a million of them. It is more a day-to-day oversight of— these things are overseeing your day-to-day business. And it makes mistakes more costly, I think. And scaling isn't just a matter of making more of a widget. The systems have to mature quickly. Things devolve to chaos pretty quickly if you don't do that. So it's easier than consumer goods in there is a direct line to the consumer, to, to your consumer. So you get a really quick feedback. You don't get somebody's problem fixed fast enough, a person, a resident, then you hear about it quickly. If an owner is unhappy, you hear about it quickly. So it's a little different in that way. I think there are fewer moving parts than in a product supply chain. You know, a lot of times you're dealing with other countries, other traditions, other values that affect your product. And I don't think you have that as much in property management. And I think in a weird way, quality control's a little easier because you're so close to the resident, you're so close to the investor, you're so close to your maintenance crew. So quality control's a little bit easier. It's harder in that this is an emotionally loaded business. Property management is— you're dealing with homes and you're dealing with money. And those are the two things that get people worked up the most, right? I think the processes in property management can feel cold at times to the investor or to the resident. They're, they're necessary, but they can have a little bit of a feeling of You're not accommodating me and my issue. There's a really high service expectation. We've talked about this before. It's an Amazon world. People expect everything in an hour at their doorstep. And so that's much more difficult. I talked about the regulations by state government, that kind of thing, local. And we talked about scaling. So I think those are the things that are harder about property management.

Overall. Yeah, I mean, you, you hit on some great highlights there. It's a tough business, and I've continued to reflect on property management at a small scale, which I consider us, you know, still to be a lot, even, you know, since you moved on. And it's something I still think about because there's just a part of me that still feels like it hasn't quite been cracked yet. It seems like there's just there's not an easy replicable set of systems or ways to run the business the way there is for like a donut shop or a tire shop or something. It still feels like reinventing the wheel every time we grow or every time someone starts a new property management company. So there's a lot to it. Specifically with RL, when you came in, How, you know, with this prior experience, what struck you right off the gate that was effective and memorable about RL and then, and you know, some things that you would maybe take with you as you're sort of advising other companies now. And then maybe what were some things that were, this will be more of the fun one. What were some things that were kind of dysfunctional that you tried to fix or that you, you know, reflecting later where you're like, wow, that was not the great way, a great way to do that.

Yeah, I remember when I came in, one of the— before I came in, actually, and when I got there, one of the things that you had said to me was, I want to know what we're not doing as well as other companies, right? Help me understand the things that we need to do to be better. And after about, I would say, the first month, and probably faster than that, I thought, this is the most well-run company I have been involved in. And I tell people that all the time. So it's not just 'cause I'm sitting here today. The first thing that struck me is the amount of trust you had in your team. And that trust is what allows you to do— one of the things that allows you to do your month away in June. Many, many, many owners, I would say the majority of them, it's the, I don't feel like it's done well unless I do it mentality. And what that really does is the opposite of what they want to do. You know, they started a business in order to be able to have control over their lives, their free time. And then all of a sudden the business is controlling everything about their lives and their free time. So that was the first thing that struck me. Also, it was a safe place to learn from mistakes, to learn by making mistakes. You would ask me to do things that I thought of, has this guy lost his mind? I mean, How am I going to know how to do this thing? And you were totally fine if I made mistakes. You would tell me what needed to be done to correct it, or you would ask me what I think needed to be done to correct it. That's probably more accurate initially. And we got it fixed and we moved on. So that is very freeing, I think, to your team and instills a lot of confidence in them. You also provide the tools they need in order to be able to execute well and take that fear of, I'm going to make a mistake, away. So RL was an extremely safe place to learn. I think after my years of not being in that kind of environment, it took me a long time to believe it. I kept waiting for you to explode or annihilate somebody or yell and scream and have a temper tantrum in the middle of the office, and it just never happened. And when I say it took me a year to believe it, that's probably close. Yeah. So old habits die hard on my end of it. I think the documentation of processes is overwhelmingly the thing that can be done by owners to enable their team to do their jobs, do them well, and be confident. So I take that all the time. I can't tell you how many owners I sit with and I'd say, okay, tell me where all your processes are documented, where are the tasks, the jobs? And often I get, oh, well, it's on our Drive, it's in Google Docs, it's here, it's in this handbook. And I said, okay, so no one's using it is what you're telling me. And I often get a look on the face of, but what do you mean? I just told you it's all documented. But if it's not easily accessed and easily updated, just don't bother. Don't have it. So we, we talk about creating a company wiki a lot. I think the, the biggest thing for me, eye-opening, was the cross-training and the task maps that happen. A story I tell all the time is when we had 2 people going on family leave back to back. And it was in November, December, so it was a little better from a, that's a bit of a slower time in property management. But as a new COO, I was like, what am I going to do? How am I going to facilitate this? And it was, it went smooth as silk. We had an RTM who was hired 2 weeks prior to the first person going on leave. They did follow the task map. They were trained. They sat in the role. When the next person had to go, they trained her for 2 weeks. Same person, totally different job, executed extremely well. And then we hired that RTM in when the second person came back from family leave. So I just think all of those things empower the team, make them feel like they can do the job, and if they make a mistake, they know it's not typically fatal to them, their career, and, and you handle it really well. So.

Well, thanks. That was all the good stuff. And I think anyone who doubted if Kathy worked for me for a while is probably all doubts are banished now that you were talking about the value of a company wiki and systems being documented. And then, and that was not something that you were, I don't think that was really on your radar coming into RL.

No, didn't even know it existed. Yeah. Didn't even know what it was. I mean, I came from the, here's our handbook.

Yeah, the old school. Right?

Yep. And that was, that was the documentation. So really to me, the, the biggest eye-opening thing was the documentation, and I use that daily in my role now.

Awesome. How about some stuff that wasn't working? What did you come in and observe that was, you know, dysfunctional, broken, not helping us?

Succeed? You know, I think sometimes the reliance on processes takes the human element out a little bit, and, and it's designed to do that, right? But it does discount a little bit when somebody just gets blasted by a resident or an investor and they're just really having a rough day and then they that rough day spills over into other transactions, other dealings with people. So I, I felt like the EQ piece of the business was addressed a little less, and that was the gap I tried to fill. One of the areas that I thought that I could bring value because of my training in business of people. And, you know, I know that if you don't address those two things in a business, the, not only the IQ, but the EQ piece, then you're gonna have a, a company that does well, but from an employee perspective, it's not as gratifying as it could or should be.

Yeah, that, that's definitely the case. You, you brought a warmth to the office and started to spread it in, in terms of hires and, and coaching. And we've continued that. I think we've enhanced it even since you moved on from RL. And I think if you came and sat in the office for a week, you'd be amazed at how things have warmed up, both in how we deal with customers and how employees deal with each other. So it's, it's def— you know, it's a lasting legacy for RL.

Well, and you map the customer path, right? Yeah.

The customer journey.

Yep. Yeah. So I think that had to be really helpful and, and helped identify areas where there could be more support and those kind of things, both of the customer and the, the team.

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So I am not a person that gets intimidated by change or gets thrown by that. I usually just dive in and do whatever is required. However, in this case, I thought, oh my gosh. I had joined in January, I believe, and this was June 1. So I had just enough knowledge to be dangerous. And you did a great job preparing me and the team. I think that EOS helps clarify priority and goals. So we didn't have to worry about tanking the quarter by not achieving what our rocks were, which is always to me the primary concern that we're not going to achieve what we needed to achieve. You know, the task map in Notion that was set up was invaluable to me because I could review your tasks. I could review the team's tasks. We talked about, okay, what do you typically need from Peter during the month? You had prepped everyone in that way. So a lot of it was disbursements, signatures, those kind of things. You had trained me in disbursements. Thank you so much. I hope I never have to do that again. That is not my strength, but it was very helpful in learning. You know, it was one more data point to help understand how this whole business works. And so, you know, you had that set up and I believe you even called in. You were on, you were in Maine maybe.

Yeah, I was in Maine.

And you called in. Yeah. And we kind of, I did them, but you walked through them, caught anything that I maybe missed. So they went fine. And I think I worked with the team individually to just make sure they were covered on anything that they needed. And I think the first year we, I contacted you 3 times. Were things that I just didn't know what to do. And the second year, I believe, was 1, and the third year was 0. So we got to it, but it just took a little time.

Yeah, and that, that tracks with my memory. So it was actually January. It wasn't even November or December. It was January, and then I was gone in June.

Yeah, I want to add too, I, I think the other thing is because of the way the company is set up and, and all the people on the team are extremely proficient in their roles. They're very professional. The leaders in the company were very confident. They weren't worried about you being gone. There might have been a little trepidation, but overall, they all felt pretty secure in what they did. I think that was another key piece. If you had a lot of people that were worried about wringing their hands, oh my gosh, Peter's going to be gone for a month. It would've been a different experience. But everyone wanted you to take the time away. We all see how involved you are, how many things you have going on. And when I say involved, I don't mean it from a day-to-day basis. It's the opposite. You're involved a lot in thinking about the future. But everybody wanted you to have that time away from the business too. So that was another key piece. Yeah.

And I don't think that's unique to RL. I think that's common in every business where the, The team sees the owner working really hard. I mean, not in every case, in most cases. And I think, cause that's a fear a lot of business owners have is, well, isn't the team going to think I'm lazy and they're going to be so mad that I'm not there? It's like, no, actually quite the opposite. They're looking for a chance to show that they can do things on their own. They're looking for that opportunity to level up in decision-making and just taking care of things. And they probably want you to have some time to relax and think because anyone with half a brain realizes that that's when some of the most important work as an owner is going to happen. Strategic thinking, big picture thinking, vivid vision stuff. You can't do that while you're on the phone with the tenant, you know, talking about a late fee. You have to be away, have some time to clear your head and think, think big thoughts.

So. And I think it helps the team tackle things that maybe they were hesitant in tackling before. I know I had to have calls with investors while you were gone, and after 6 months, did I feel super solid about all my answers? No. But did I always try to leave the investor with the feeling of if I didn't know the answer, I would get it for them? For sure. And I don't think we really had any negative impact from the from the resident standpoint. And, you know, seeing is believing. Once everyone did it in the company, now it's the expectation. Peter takes off the month of June. And what a great expectation to have for you or any owner. And I think a lot of times owners try to hold on too tightly to their business, and that perpetuates the issue of not being able to get away.

Yep.

Couldn't agree more. Yeah. And when I talk, you know, we'll talk about Crane, but when I talk to people that are interested in joining Crane, CraneBreaks always come up.

Oh, cool. Yeah, that's great.

Yeah, I love going on the app and seeing the feedback from people taking theirs. That's got to be very gratifying to you.

So great.

And I love to see the mistakes that were made. I remember somebody posted, you know, I forgot to give somebody access to a bank account. And what great learning, right? Because now on my checklist, if I'm an owner, I'm going to put make sure everybody has access to the bank account.

So yeah, so some of you I should have mentioned, some of you might be thinking, wow, Kathy sounds really familiar. You may have spoken with Kathy during your Crane onboarding process, or if you were checking out Crane and you got approved, Kathy's been helping out with some of the sales for Crane, helping folks through understanding what's involved and hearing more about Crane and what there is to offer there. So, you might recognize Kathy through that context.

One of my favorite things to do. Awesome.

So, I want to ask you about this great phrase that you said early on when we've, probably during our very first interview, you said, "Hey, I'm a great number 2. I don't really like being a visionary. I don't, you know, I don't think I'm great at it. I don't really want to do it. If you give me a clear vision though, man, I'll get after it. I'm going to go execute on it, and that's where I love to be. Now, as a business owner, poof, that's music to my ears. That's wonderful. And it's rare to meet somebody who's so clear-eyed about that. It, it seems like, I mean, in the circles I run in, it's like everyone wants to be number one, right? It seems like, why wouldn't you? That's, that's, you know, but you're like, no, actually that's not for me. I'm, I'm really good. And especially EOS really lends itself to this visionary integrator dynamic, which worked really well with us. And I guess I'm curious, when did you realize that that was what you wanted to be? And it takes a certain amount of honesty with oneself or humility. And was that something that was always present in you, or is that something that sort of came with experience and maturity to realize, okay, I can be most effective here and it's not about being number one?

You know, I think in my 20s, 30s, 40s, I wanted to rule the world, right? That's how we're wired. So when I became president of Bosca Accessories, that to me was, wow, I did it, right? And then I realized though, working with Chris, Chris is really a visionary also. He's probably my first experience with a true visionary. And that's when I realized I loved when he came up with his ideas and I got to go execute them. So that was the first time I started thinking about that. But prior to that, I had also owned my own business. And I realized that I like to be in the here and now. I don't really, I'm not good at seeing around corners. I'm not good at seeing 1 to 5 years out. My partner was, so that was a good combination. But I liked more the day-to-day. I'm a really good figure-it-out person, and I don't mind throwing spaghetti on the wall. I think you and I have talked about that before, where I'd like to sit and brainstorm, come up with these crazy ideas. But I'm not the person, I'm not the visionary who can think 1 to 5 years out how things are going to change, how to either be the company dictating the change or anticipating the change. I'm just not good at seeing that far. So I decided when I left Bosca that I really wanted to be in that number 2 role. I also think, to your point, you need to have a really big ego to be number 1. You just get punched in the face so often that you just have to get up time after time after time. And I'm not wired that way, as you know. One of the best books you ever gave me to read, The Inner Game of Tennis, I believe, was you kind of address some of those things and you know what to do. You just have to believe in that you know what to do. Became very helpful in my golf game, by the way, as you know. But I just don't think I have— I'm not wired to have that ego that you have to have. And I don't say that in a negative way. It's a very positive thing. So I also like variety. I love jumping around from one thing to another, to another, back to the first thing. If I had to think about something too long for days, for weeks, for months, that's just, it's boring to me. I don't want to do it. Yeah. And I think too, as business has evolved, that kind of thinking is encouraged. Before, you were a failure if you didn't get to the top. Now we know you're a failure if you don't live a good life that you design to satisfy you, right? And that thinking didn't exist before. So I think that has been a really good change that, sure, you can be mid-level manager. If that's what you like to do, do it, right? You can be a person who comes to work, clocks in, clocks out, goes home with the kids, with the family. That's okay. You're successful then. So maybe the definition of success has changed a bit over the years.

And I wonder too, like, is this something that everyone just has to reach a certain age and level of experience before they're ready to hear that? Like, if you would've gotten that message in your 30s or in your early 40s, would it just kind of have bounced right off? I mean, for all we know, people tried to tell you that and you're just, boom, right? So maybe that message has always been there. We're just, You know, it's, it's the old adage about when the student is ready, the master appears.

I think that's a really good adage.

Yeah. It's like, yeah, it's okay for you to be number 2, old man, but I wanna be number 1. I mean, I'm actually ambitious unlike you, right? Like, this is probably what, how I would've reacted, you know, when I was younger.

Yeah. It, that's exactly what I thought. I thought, how, what would I say when I was in my 30s? Somebody said that, I would've said, well, you can do you, right? I, that's not what I want. And, uh, yeah.

So speaking of sort of developing more mature mindset on business and life, you and I talked a lot over the years that you worked for me about your training that you went through, and I'm forgetting the name of the programs and the teachers, but you often referred back to this sort of mindset training or people training that helped you move from being super direct. And I don't know, I'll let you explain how you were and how you became— I don't want to insult you, but you really spoke fondly of, of how impactful that was. And I'd love to hear more about that.

Sure. I'll insult myself. I am very honest in that way, as you know. I, I interviewed with Norman Shub at the Gestalt Institute. He ran a program called Business of People. God rest his soul, he passed a few years ago. But that was part of my interview process at Bosco, so I interviewed with him. And he ran this Business of People, which is basically a coaching program to develop coaches that would go out into the community and help businesses elevate their people. And part of that, it was a 3-year program on the weekends, and part of it was addressing your own issues. And Norman gave me a nickname that I fondly recall now, and it was Kathy the Crusher. Because I grew up in the age where you, uh, management was by intimidation. And whoever intimidated the best and the most won.

Get it done or else.

I was super good at it. I'm 5'9". I'm not a little girl. I came in there and, you know, cracked heads wherever I went. And it worked for a while, right? I got to a VP level at 26 and—

This is like the '90s?

Yeah. And I worked, it worked really well. Then it stopped working. And the, one of my strengths is my ability to adapt. And so working with business people, I learned that, you know, how to create change in an organization that's stuck. We can all change anything for a week, two weeks, a month. Long-term change is difficult. And in order to recognize that in other people, you had to recognize what your weaknesses are, what your strengths are. And so worked on that a lot. But what it did for me was made me realize, one, all change is incremental. That's a big Norman phrase. So, you know, I think we all go in thinking that we're going to fix something on this day and it's going to stay fixed. Sometimes the fix takes a year. I was in an organization where we needed to change the culture. They had the mindset of, we've always done it this way. It was a very established business. And when we would go to make change, we would suggest a change, and the answer would be, oh, we can't do that. We've always done it this way. So it took me about a year to create change in that organization. And I knew that I had won, if you will, when I was sitting at a table and the person that was the biggest resistor said to the group, we've got to stop saying we've always done it this way. And I get chills thinking about it now because that person became one of my biggest allies, but was the biggest resistor. So learning how to create change in organization, I think, was super impactful. Learning that People often won't change unless they feel pain, not physical, but any sort of pain, and helping them realize that it doesn't have to feel that way. And how do they envision it if it didn't feel that way? And what could they do more of if it didn't feel that way? So helping people address their own issues in a supportive way. And then the second piece is the— there's the pain piece, and then there's the support piece. And that's what RL is so good at, is supporting the team. If you have people that are afraid to change because they're going to get yelled at all the time, or they're going to make mistakes, and they're going to get called out for it, all that kind of thing, the changes won't happen. But providing people a lot of support so that they can change is really a significant piece of that.

Awesome. And is that organization still around?

It is. Darren Townsend is running it. I met with him a couple months ago. And they get engaged in international things. I mean, Norman was an international thought leader in the space, and Darren has continued with it and travels the world for business people.

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Yeah, I think what you bring is what I'm not good at, and what I bring is maybe what you don't like to do or you're not as good at, right? And it's the, you're very clear about what you want the business to be and where you want it to go. And I think that's an important thing for CEOs. A lot of times they're very reactionary. And when I see a business that there's a lot of chaos, a lot of disorganization, it's really not anyone's fault, but it's a reflection of the CEO's brain. There is so much going on, so many things having to deal with, where you are very strong at being very clear, very linear. There's a path. And I think that brings comfort to the team. Again, it adds to the feeling that we've got a really strong leader steering the ship, whether it's you or any other CEO that I deal with. And I also think the ability to say, you know what, I had this idea, I thought this, but I've evolved over the years. Because getting stuck, like you said, is not a great thing for a business. You do have to evolve with the different climate changes that happen, especially now, right?

Oh, the other thing that comes up for me is, you know, you talked about how our strengths complemented each other. It's easy as an owner to go and try to find and hire somebody who's just like you, right? Somebody who is maybe your same age, similar experience, thinks the way you do, looks the way you do, because naturally you get along with people like that really well. It's easy to, you know, you, you, You just have this natural bond that's effortless. But if I hired someone just like me, I don't think that would've been most effective for the company because we would have, we would've had the same blind spots. We would've had the same desires to be number one. Like, so I think as a, as a business owner, as a leader, you need to have a really clear-eyed picture of what your own strengths are and what your own weaknesses are so that you can find somebody who complements that. And I believe this is also true for finding a business partner. I was talking with a good friend of mine recently about a new business venture he's interested in getting involved in, and he was describing the partner he's thinking about bringing on. I'm like, "Guy, that guy sounds exactly like you. Who's going to be the one that actually does the work? Because you're both like big idea people." He's like, "Shoot, you're right." So just, you know, that's kind of my advice from my side of it is don't go and hire someone who's exactly like yourself. You need to understand what the business needs and what you need to fill in those missing parts and pieces.

Yeah, I think that's very clear-eyed thinking, right? When you go to create a team, you don't put all leaders on it. You have to have some support. And you don't put all, you know, Type As. You need some Type Bs. And so whatever assessment tool you use, trying to figure out how do I round this team out, what does the team need, regardless regardless of what your personal preferences are, is a really key component to having a strong team.

Yep. Well, great. I want to ask you now about something I've never done, which is sort of reach the end of my career or toward the end and move into a sort of a semi-retirement, which is how you've described it. Love to hear sort of what you're doing now and your reflections on, you know, not having an employer, having more free time. Are you going stir crazy? You know, which, what, it's a few years out for me yet, but what are some things I should be thinking about?

That's a really great question. In Ohio, April-ish, May-ish to November 1st, it's great to be retired or semi-retired. So there's lots to do. You get outside. I'm a big golfer. I could play anytime I want. I mean, it's just awesome. Then comes November 1st to April 1st. And we have winter. So I think having a place to escape to in the winter is really important. And I don't mean a home or whatever, just weekends away to break it up if you can. And that's one benefit of years and years of traveling is I have a zillion points, as does my husband, hotel, airfare, so that, you know, we've made great use of them. You know, what I'm currently doing is I help owners increase the value of their company. By focusing on revenue generation tactics and coaching and execution of those and creating and documenting repeatable processes. Where did I learn that? And so, because I've always focused on the rev gen side, but you can bring in all the business you want, but if you're creating chaos on the side that executes, it falls apart. You lose your customers, that kind of thing. So I, I really enjoy that. I knew that I would need to have some work. I mean, I started my first business in 4th grade, and so I've worked a really long time at different things. And I probably will do something until I die. I can't imagine not. That may evolve over the years, but right now I really like doing what I'm doing. I've recently made the same error that I coach my owners not to make. And you have not made this error, but you know, you gotta be laser beam. You can't be buckshot. A laser beam makes you be all things to all people and you kind of jack of all trades. You're not doing anything, one thing really well. So I am evolving to focus more on people who want to sell their businesses in 18 to 36 months, and then increasing the revenue, getting the processes documented so there's an easy exchange to a new owner.

That's a good news.

I got exposed. Yeah, I got exposed to that this past summer. And I'm sorry, this past fall. And it was so interesting to me. And it's really, you know, getting out the pen and paper and what do you do well and what's not going well and really digging into the business and owners tend to be very honest at that time. You know, they're, they want to do well. They wanna increase the value of their business and benefits them. So somebody had coached me into, you know what, I think you're doing too much. You're too broad and focus on this. And so that's what I have evolved to now.

Yeah. I noticed when you said the first, the way you described it, was really clear. You said, I help owners increase the value of their business by X, Y, and Z. You didn't just say, I'm a business coach, or I'm a consultant and help people with their businesses, right? You're— so I love that, and I think, you know, that's going to be really powerful.

Yeah, I, I think it's needed out there. I think a lot of people are, you know, selling their businesses just because of the demographic of age in the United States, uh, and I think it's where I'm very comfortable being. It's execution. And so, identifying and executing on a short time period, you know, 12 to 36 months. So, I work about 2, 2.5 days a week. You know, the challenge is filling the pipeline. That's always the challenge. And then you have people that say they commit and then they cancel, and then you have a day open and you gotta go fill it. But I really do enjoy the flexibility it gives me. You know, I mean, I'll work, to death. I'll sit at a desk for 12 hours a day. And you discouraged that in me, but I just didn't feel I could get up to speed in that industry unless I did that. You know, put me in the jewelry industry, wouldn't do it because I know that inside out. But in property management, that was a totally new thing to me. Service was different. I had worked in another service business before, but it was a combo of service and product, so I got it a little better. But you know, what property management companies do is hard and you just have to have the patience you had with me in getting up to speed. Because if you're thinking you're gonna bring somebody in that has, doesn't have industry experience, but has professional experience, it's gonna take them a good year to 18 months to be able to feel really confident about what they're doing..

And, and I know, 'cause I did it. That's a great message. And, you know, we've since brought in a, a new leader in your role and similar, no industry experience, no direct industry experience, and similar on-ramp. It just, it does take time. And that's a great message for business owners to hear. If you want months off, if you want someone running the business while you're thinking big strategic thoughts, it's going to take some time. I've had great luck bringing folks in who don't necessarily have property management experience, and, but they've had a proven track record of success with other small businesses. I would caution against bringing somebody in from the Fortune 500. It's, it's, you know, any big company, totally different game there. And they're going to come in with all these expectations of support and it just, They, nothing wrong with it. In fact, it's cool. I mean, it sounds exotic and fun to work for a big, you know, national, international type of company, but I don't think it translates well to small business, the realities of running a small business. And I consider myself small still. So yeah, that's a great reminder that you're just, it's a complicated business. There's a lot of moving parts. And so having that patience to work with a COO or a number 2 person, you can't, you can't just expect them to be able to do everything after 30 days or 60 days.

Agreed. And I think owners do tend to think it'll happen faster than it does, but well worth it. The time invested is well worth it. You know, one of the things you do, and we worked on over the years together, is the interview process. That's so critical because you're using the same process for every person that you interview. You start to see trends, you start to to understand what responses fit well into the company culture. You're looking for culture fit. You're looking for professional fit, all those things. So having that repeatable interview process, I think, is really important in identifying these folks, using the assessment tools so that you get a well-rounded out team and you're not duplicating strengths particularly between the COO and the CEO. Sure. And, you know, having somebody that just will keep grinding it out. I will never be over— no one will work harder than I will. I know that is one of my strengths, but a strength also can be a weakness, and that's a weakness. And all of a sudden you have 12-hour days for a while, and that can burn out people, especially in property management business. Yep. So, you know, being supportive as you were pointing out, hey, time to go, you know, making sure you're kind of keeping an eye on that person as they're getting up to speed is important.

Yep. Let's end with this. So you're working with business owners and you've had a lot of experience with business owners throughout your career. What are some of the mistakes that you see business owners and operators making most commonly? Now, we've touched on several of these, lack of documentation, lack of trust in the team. But I'd be curious to hear more from you on where are the biggest opportunities that you see in 2025 for business owners to help make their lives easier, their business worth more, the team more effective without them holding their hand, etc.?

I think the two you mentioned are the top two, right? But I think Prioritization is a third. Not prioritizing the right things. My husband says right action, right order, right? And so making sure you identify really the drivers of the business, the things that are really important. We spend a lot of our time in business addressing things that just aren't important. And I didn't understand that until I went to work in RL. And your ability to prioritize is really important. I work with another CEO the same way. She does a great job prioritizing.

So— You got to know what fires to let burn.

That's right. Fires to let burn. That was your thing. And, you know, initially, every fire seems important when you're new in a role. They're all equal. They're all burning. But the truth is they're not. I think reinventing the wheel, which kind of goes to the process piece, whether it be scripts for sales initially till people get up to speed, processes, documentation, all that kind of stuff, super important. Long aimless meetings. EOS does not encourage that in any way in the format. Sometimes I think a little too strict, but I get it. You know, if you have exceptions to the process, it's not a process. So long, aimless meetings that you come out of saying, who's doing what, when is it due, those kind of things, having people take responsibility for the tasks is super important. Again, I think in a meeting, we tend to try to solve the small stuff first so we can check it off the list for those of us who are list checkers. Yeah. Yeah. And that does not move the needle like it needs to be moved. Here's another Peterism, not getting to the root cause of an issue. I think we all can deal with the top extraneous stuff, but getting really to what the root cause is, is really important. And then no clear direction or accountability for the team. As much as we talk about trusting people and as much as we talk about people having the feeling that they can do their jobs and do them well, and if they make a mistake, it'll be dealt with, there still is accountability, especially to me in the culture piece. I think you used to say, hire slow, fire fast.

Is that right? Yeah, that's not an original phrase from me, but yes, I'm sure I said that.

Yeah, you did say it. Stuck with me. And I think that's important because I, I think in general, owners, when you've got a role open, you just want to fill it. And you don't have the patience to leave a role open for 3 months. But because of if you cross-train your team, if you have task maps that are clear, it's a pretty easy lift to cover for somebody for 3 months. That sounds crazy to say that, but your team does it. I've seen it done. Lauren does it. Tiffany does it. Michael, JD, Alex, everybody. They all have the ability to do that. So not giving clear direction, having accountability for the team, not getting to the root issue, solving the small stuff first as opposed to prioritizing and hitting the big stuff, those are all key in making sure you have a really well-run organization.

Well, that's great. That's some wisdom from years in, in business and talking with other business owners. Thanks for sharing that. This has been awesome, Kathy. I, it's so great to reconnect and sort of reminisce about some of the, our time together at RL and hear, you know, from the other side of things. Hopefully the audience agrees. For anyone who wants to follow along with you and maybe connect with you, where would be the best place for them to do that?

I have a Gmail. I didn't set up a business email.

KathyGainer1@gmail.com.

C-A-T-H-Y-G-A-I-N-E-R-1@gmail.com. Or LinkedIn. Reach me on my cell, which I don't know that I'll blast it out.

Yeah, maybe not. We'll dig up your LinkedIn profile too and link to that.

Sure. Awesome.

Yeah.

Peter, thank you so much. You know, this is way outta my comfort zone and that's why I did it. When I got the invitation, my first thought was, oh heck no. And then Well, you did great. No, I need to get out of my comfort zone. So thank you so much for the opportunity.

I appreciate it. All right. Well, thanks again for coming on, Kathy. Yeah, thanks. If you like the show and want to get connected to the community, you can follow me on Twitter @PSLohmann and subscribe to my email newsletter on my website, PeterLohmann.com. I try to share as much valuable property management content as I can on a regular basis. Thanks again for listening and have a great week.