Aligning Leadership and Empathy | Hortense le Gentil | 622

And welcome, welcome, welcome. This is Peter Winick. I'm the founder and CEO at Thought Leadership Leverage, and you're joining us on the podcast today. My podcast guest today is Hortense Legendil. She's got an amazing background. She's an executive leadership coach and author. She's a world-renowned executive leadership coach, a speaker, an author. Her latest book, which came out last year, is called The Unlocked Leader: Dare to Free Your Own Voice, Lead with Empathy, and Shine Your Light in the World. That was published by Wiley. And instead of me telling you how amazing and interesting she is, I'd rather just talk to her directly, given that she's, she's here with me. So welcome. How are you today, Hortense?

I'm very good. I'm so happy to be here, Peter. Thank you for having me. So yeah, so tell me about you know, your journey and your path.

And there's a bit of a horse story in here as well, I think.

There are some horses around, yes. So I took the singing roads because to arrive where I am today and to really find my calling, what I call my calling, everything started. I was in France because I was born and raised in France, as you can say. With my accent, and I was surrounded by, uh, by horses, and my life was all about horses. And I was a competitor also. I was a show jumper. And then I think that now when I reflect, you know, on the past, when I look back, I understand that at that moment I learned a lot about leadership. I learned about empathy. How to talk to this horse, uh, that doesn't, doesn't talk, uh, how to make it jump, how to make it one with yourself, and how, how you can do all that. And especially when you are, when you, you work on show jumping and you want to, to jump, so you have a lot to work with. You need to communicate correctly, you need to be one with your horse. And this is like, you know, 3 steps before the obstacles. You can, even if you don't, even if you, I don't know, do you ride?

No, no.

No, okay. But I can explain very well. It's, you know, it's all the work you prepare your horse to be in front of, you know, you exactly, you know where you want to go. And then 3 steps before, you don't move anymore. You let, you trust your horse. Your horse is going to Jump. It's not you. It's your horse. And then it's exactly the same with leadership. It's not about you. It's not about you.

It's what about— I just find it fascinating, people's origin stories and where they take lessons from. And to them, it seems so glaringly obvious that that's a leadership lesson. Right. So I, you know, I think there's a shorthand way of describing what you do on the executive coaching, executive leadership side. It says, you know, starts with a horse and you prevent people from being horses' asses. Right. It's like using empathy, right? So tell me a little bit about— I feel like on some level today, everybody says they're a coach and there are coaches and there are coaches. You're a coach. You're actually a real executive leadership and development coach. What does that— give us an example of who's hiring you, maybe not by name, and what are they hoping to get out of a coaching engagement?

So I'm not going to, sorry, I'm not going to answer directly to your question. Because, because just, I wanted to jump on what you said and I agree with that. So there is a lot of coaches and then I think everyone is different and why they are different because it's a question of human being. It's a question of, you know, what is important for you and what you want to teach and the empathy that is and how you connect with your client. And then in my case, I, I work for large corporations for, for years and as an entrepreneur for more than 2 decades. So I was not born a coach. And then I just discovered that I could help others, you know, only a decade ago. And it was when, you know, I've been through all my journey. I learned, you know, what I learned. And as everyone, you know, has up and down difficult moments or whatever it is. And then this is, you know, when I was asked by a friend who told me, you 'Can you help my friend with an entrepreneur or so? You just love, you know, so much, you help people.' And I said, 'Yes, of course I will.' And this friend told me, 'And by the way, you should be a coach.' And Peter, I just told him, 'I don't know what is a coach about. I'm not a coach, but I'm going to help your friend.' And so, right.

So I, but I think that's interesting because your objective in that scenario was a friend asked you to help someone. You said, sure, happy to be helpful. And they put this label, this put you out of put you. So we'll call that coaching and you're like, okay, call it what you will. All I care about is really helping them, which I think that's really important because not every coach has that worldview or that perspective.

Yeah. This was mine. And then, you know, the first, you know, when I have that, you know, that, that but fun at that moment. I put that hat and I just discovered that, yeah, everything I learned, I could, you know, give back and help others with that. And then after, and I will answer your question, but, and then after, it's because it's a journey, because this is you, and because it was me at that time, what I learned in my life was you need to be aligned with yourself. So either it's your way, it works, and the doors are going to open, clients are going to come. Oh, it's not your way and this is fine because I was not looking for that. And then what I did is I realized that I was good and what was important for me is to tell people about leadership, be human as a leader, being vulnerable is okay, but you need to connect with yourself. You need to unlock yourself. You need to have the courage to lead by yourself. So it's, it's your way. And then I started this, you know, this mission, let's say. And I wrote the first book and then the second book on, you know, how you align yourself, how you connect with yourself, you know, what is important for you, how you want to be remembered as a leader. And then to answer your question, sorry, it was long. But people, people come to me because of very often they are CEOs or young CEOs or not young CEOs. They are in transition or they are senior executives. And they feel that it's not about anymore doing. They did it. It's about being. We are human beings. We are not human doing, and like the horse, like, you know, the metaphor of the horse, you know, it's not you going to jump, it's your company, it's your people. Then you have to take care of your people, of your horse.

Because some would argue that on the one hand, if I am a young or not so young CEO, what kind of coaching would I need? I get everything there needs to be. I, you know, I'm at the top of my game, right? The board has entrusted me. To run the company. My compensation is great. I've got a strategy I'm executing. I've got a leadership team, et cetera. And then you're saying sort of, well, yeah, but that's the point of your life. It's almost sort of Maslow that you have the luxury of saying, okay, well, what else? Right, right. So obviously you have the, the, the strategic thinking skills and the critical thinking, and you know, you're in just like, they're not coming to you to say, I don't know how to set strategy, or I don't know how to, I don't know the ins and outs of the nuances of my industry. It's very personal and it's also not something that they necessarily know how or want to engage with their team and their group with.

Yes, exactly. Exactly, Peter. This is exactly that. And because at one point, nobody teach you, you know, to do that. You don't know, but all of us as human being, we are in a journey and we are in a journey. And then at that point in this journey, you know, you change, you change hat, you change suits, and it's not anymore, yes, you know, you know everything about strategy and whatever, or you are plenty of other consultants who are going to do that. This is not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about exactly what you said is, okay, how can I evolve? How I can, you know, do something for others? How can I? Makes, you know, this company much better. And by the way, you will be more successful and much more happy, by the way, because, because this is another, another way. It's another thing.

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So I can take an example of, you know, this was years ago and I was, I had a client who was expected to be the next CEO of the company. Okay, so it was succession time. And then in order to do that, you had to interview with, of course, you know, the board members, right? And then out of the blue, his behavior changed completely. He talked all the time. He didn't listen. You know, he was another person. And so everyone was surprised and said, what happened to him? And then he came to me and he told me, I absolutely don't know what happened to me, but can you help me? And I said, okay, so we're going to figure out. And then revisiting his life, he remembered a time, a long time ago, when he was a student and he was in, you know, in order to, to have to pass an exam in order to be graduate. And in front of, you know, this panel of teacher, professor, he had to talk. And one of the teachers didn't let him talk. He just interrupted him all the time, cut him off all the time. And then this young guy, can you imagine, you know, 20-something, who prepared, was an average student, couldn't express himself. And then it created a trauma. He was not aware of it, but trauma, because he was, you know, he was shocked. And the second thing is, because it was not enough, the teacher told him, you know, young guy, I don't know what you're going to do in your life, but I can promise you, you will never be a CEO because we can see all your emotions on your face. Then imagine this young guy leaving, you know, this room. Well, he graduated, but with success, but a trauma. It was a shock. And then voices would tell you, you know, promise you, you will never be a CEO. Then in his unconscious, when he was in front, the first time he was in front of the situation to be, you know, to be expected to be a CEO, his unconscious told him, okay, talk. Don't let anybody interrupt, cut you, and tell your story, tell what you have to say. And then it was not appropriate, of course, but he was not aware of it. So we worked on that. He was trapped. It was, you know, what I call, you know, the mind trap in the book. He was trapped. He was there. So we had to, we found the source and then this voice. And then in order to escape to that, he had to be aware of it and then to challenge the voice. Is it true? Is it true you cannot be a CEO? Obviously it was not. Is it true that you, is it helpful today? No. So you ask, you know, those questions. Is it true? Is it relevant? And is it helpful today? And he said no, no, and no. So I said, okay, so what about let go? And then, and then we work on let go. And how to let go, by the way, Peter, is not that easy. Because let go means, you know, you are in peace with that.

So, I mean, very easy to say, very difficult to act.

Very difficult to do. And then we did that. And then, just to finish the story and to explain you what could happen, is because he was completely himself, he was like, he was unlocked. He felt free. He was ready to write his own story. And then we worked on, okay, who are you? What kind of leader do you want to be? How you want to show up for your team, you know, and how being vulnerable, being vulnerable. Yeah. As you said, a lot have been said about why we should lead with empathy, but not much about how we do that. Where do we start? So the book and my work is about that. Where do you start? Where do you start? And where are the boundaries? Yeah.

Yeah. I want to spend the last few minutes that we have together talking really about sort of the business side of thought leadership as it relates to your work. So there's publishing, there's coaching. Tell me maybe some of the things that you've learned from when you started to where you are now about the business side of this, because coaching on some levels is not an easy business, right? It's typically time for money, you know, or some variation of that. And writing books, we can debate whether that's actually a business model or not, but give me a sense of sort of the business landscape that you've observed. Yeah.

What I observe is more and more when you coach, you feel exactly where you are good at. And then, you know, focusing on that, you will be recognized for that. And then, you know, the business model is, is more, you know, people are talking about me. It's more about the ear and mouth. And then it's coaching and it's workshops. I do workshop. I do, I don't do keynotes. I do fireside chat because, because I don't believe in keynotes. I think keynotes, you know, people are going to sleep. Uh, or, uh, but, uh, but yes, you know, interact with the public. And then that is fun. You learn a lot, you help a lot of people and you're like, you, you hear, you know, just, and you change, you know, the environment change. And then, and then you spread the word, uh, because at the end of the day, why are you a coach? I don't know for everybody, but for me, I know, I know it's because I would like to help you to unlock and to understand that is important.

So go back to the fireside chat, because I think there's something interesting going on in the marketplace in that. It used to be either you're a keynote speaker or you're not a keynote speaker. Right. And now, and maybe COVID accelerated this, who knows? Right. So, you know, COVID happens and now keynoters who are known for their stage presence and their command of the audience and all these sorts of things have to change the way that they deliver and they resort to Zoom and figure that out. But a lot of the skills and abilities that they have on stage don't work on Zoom. Right. It's not about being big and loud and charisma or whatever. And I think the fireside chat's an extension of that, right? Because I've seen more— I just got back from Europe and saw a lot of this, an event with a client where when it's a keynote, basically what we're saying is Hortense is the most important woman in the room right now for an hour. She's so brilliant and so this, and then just shut up and listen. Right. And maybe there's 5 minutes for Q&A. And that's really— first of all, it's really hard to keep an audience, particularly a large audience of 1,000 people riveted when their phones are in their pocket and, you know, whatever, to everything you have to say at every moment. And now this fireside chat thing, whether it's you sitting down with the CEO or the head of HR or even professional journalists or something, there's something— I don't really have the word, but cozier, more authentic, more intimate. A, because it's not staged. Sometimes you see the same keynoter 3 times and you know at minute 3:11 they're going to talk about their flight and you're like, oh, okay, this is This is like, you know, going to the same Broadway show every night. Tell me how you're experiencing the Fireside Chat.

Oh yeah, it's really me because, you know, I like to connect with people. So, um, you know, you, you can, you have this empathy, you can, you can feel people, you can adapt the conversation. And it's more conversation for me, you know, I prepare, of course I prepare, prepare, prepare everything, but it's more about you. It's more about, okay, Peter, you are here. So we're going to talk about that. Let me explain. Uh, so somebody is going to ask me questions. Okay. We can explain and introduce a concept of a mind trap and mind shift and mind build. And then, okay, I make you work, right? Even, even if it's 1,000 people, I say, okay, so talk to the person near you and do that. Then it's interactive because you talk about something. Okay. Let's try. Okay. And after you, you, you can answer the question or whatever it is. And then it's, I think it's more powerful for everybody, more powerful, more fun. And then you learn really something, at least one little thing, you know, even if you are very like, I don't like, okay, I don't want to, well, you don't come to, you know, to the workshop if you don't have been, are interested in it, but I mean, you have something.

Also give you an opportunity to tune into the vibe, for lack of a better term, of the audience better in terms of, hey, if you're doing a fireside chat and you're very high energy, you say, listen, this has been a hard year for Company X. I know that you went through a CEO turnover and you lost market share and the stock's in the toilet. Like, this has been a bad year. Let's talk about that. Or congratulations, you've achieved— like, versus I think oftentimes with the keynote, everybody gets the same This is the same energy. It's all great. Well, it's not always all great. Sometimes organizations are struggling and they're having issues or, you know, successes and issues, right? They're going through digital transformation, but they're behind the curve, whatever.

Yeah, exactly. And especially, you know, today. And then it's, yes, it's handmade. No, telemade, you said. You said telemade, didn't you? It's telemade. And then, yeah, so we can talk about their fears or if everything is going very well. Well, so what next?

And I also think the last point I'll make on this before we wrap is, you know, a big piece of your work is about authenticity, is about empathy, and about being connected. And I love what you said. I like doing the fireside chats better. It's more me. It feels better for me. So you're delivering something that's more aligned with who you are. Oftentimes what we see with a keynoter is it's almost like the person that gets on stage is a caricature of the real human that they might be if you were having a glass of wine with them that evening. It's not a creation, not a fictitious character, but they have to be in this certain mindset, this certain role for 43 minutes when the lights hit on stage.

So yeah, yeah, exactly. I believe in impressing.

So there we go. Well, I appreciate this has been a fantastic conversation. I appreciate your work and thank you. Thank you for spending time with us today.

Sure. Thank you for having me, Peter Winick. Thank you. Have a lovely day.

To learn more about Thought Leadership Leverage, please visit our website at thoughtleadershipleverage.com. To reach me directly, feel free to email me at peter@thoughtleadershipleverage.com. And please subscribe to Leveraging Thought Leadership on iTunes or your favorite podcast app to get your weekly episode automatically.