Beyond Influence: Why Expertise Beats Popularity | Eric Sheinkop | 624

And welcome, welcome, welcome. This is Peter Winick. I'm the founder and CEO at Thought Leadership Leverage, and you're joining us on the podcast, which is Leveraging Thought Leadership. Today, my guest is Eric Scheinkopf. He's an accomplished entrepreneur. He's an acclaimed author, a tech innovator known for bringing innovative solutions to antiquated industries. His journey began with a passion for music and a drive to create opportunities for underserved communities. He founded a platform that became the world's largest community of unsigned musicians, enabling them to monetize their music through brand partnerships, TV and film placements. This platform helped independent music artists earn $15 million, significantly impacting their lives and careers. He's also the co-founder of the Desire Company, and he has garnered prestigious recognitions, including Features in the Billboard's 30 Under 30, Crain's Tech 50, and a whole bunch of other cool things. So welcome aboard today, Eric. Cool stuff.

Thank you very much, Peter. It's great to be here.

Yeah. So tell me how your journey as a thought leader started. Obviously it was very planned, deliberate, and logical and linear, I would assume.

Yeah, right. Like everything in this business. No, it was, it was very organic. It was very much out of a frustration because there wasn't an answer or a solution for what I was looking for. And it really started, the initial thing was that I did a graduate program in music production engineering management. And then at the graduation, it was a hero of mine who was giving the speech. And he was telling all these wonderful stories about the music industry and flying on planes with Led Zeppelin and all these wonderful experiences. And he said, but I don't know what to tell you. That was before the internet. There's no real money in the music business anymore. I would think of it more as a hobby. And this is, you know, he's giving that speech to a room of kids who have dedicated their life and money learning. So at that moment, I realized like, oh, they're not going to solve the issues of the music industry, of the entertainment industry, of the advertising industry. We are going to be the ones to solve it. We understand the nuances of the internet and how people are interacting. So it was at that moment that at least it became clear to me that we had the opportunity to create new ideas and bring them to market to help brands, you know, achieve their mission, whether it's connect with the consumers, sell more products, whatever it might be in more meaningful ways than had previously existed.

Great. So you saw this opportunity and sort of take that all the way through the music side to the Desire Company, because there's a non-obvious through line there that you bring to life in a nice way from our premium?

Sure. I mean, the, the overall theme is I've always focused my companies on creating platforms for underserved artists, really, of all types. Um, and that could be an entrepreneur, that could be a musician, that could be a painter, but giving a platform for them to monetize their craft outside of the traditional ways. So You know, with my first company, we had the largest community of musicians. Uh, we became the largest provider of music to McDonald's, Disney, Viacom, Coca-Cola, ended up selling part of that company to Coca-Cola, which was wonderful. And in this company, what we're doing is we have the largest community of multidisciplinary experts. And so we have everybody from veterinarians and doctors to Olympic athletes to astronauts. So these are the people that are typically behind the camera with a deep experience in a particular area. And we partner with them with brands to talk about a product from a particular use case. And that's resonating with consumers in a way that's never been done through influencer or through your traditional means of marketing.

Got it. Got it. So unpack the Desire Company then a little bit and what's, what the underlying ideas are behind it.

Yeah. So I mean, again, anytime you look at an industry and it's just old and not working because it hasn't caught up, there's an opportunity there for thought leadership. And that's, that's really what we've tackled here, which is reviews are extremely important to the shopping experience, but they haven't been updated since the beginning of reviews, except you're seeing every product with 15,000 5-star reviews. That can't be real. That's not sustainable and it's not helpful.

So isn't the review problem similar to sort of the Lake Wobegon where if everybody's above average, something's wrong, right? So it doesn't take a genius to figure out like, huh, nobody has a problem? Like something doesn't smell right here, which defeats the whole purpose of community-based reviews, right?

You're supposed to be able to trust. 100%. 100%. You're looking for guidance on, is this the right product? For me, for my needs, how do I use it? What do you like about it? Who's it recommended for? And that doesn't exist in the review industry anymore.

Well, and most importantly, you're, you're also looking for that to not to come from people like me, whatever that means. I don't care what the company says. Of course they're gonna tell me that their stuff is greater than sliced bread, but I want to hear, you know, from a, either a stranger or someone I know that says, yeah, this did what it said it would, or here's what I liked, didn't like, et cetera.

Absolutely. And that's exactly the other part of the industry that we're tackling, which is influencer. So that was the whole point of influencers. I want to hear from a third party about this particular product. But now influencer hasn't changed since, you know, its development originally 15, 20 years ago now. And everybody's an influencer these days. So that's a system that's broken. It's not moving. It's not evolving and it's not helping consumers. So there's an opportunity.

Let me just stay there a minute. So the opportunity that you saw is I mean, influencer today is really no different than a spokesperson. So it used to be a spokesperson, the, you know, whatever, pick a company, they paid someone with notoriety to say good things about their product, right? Back in the day, it was, you know, O.J. Simpson running through airports for Hertz, right? Like, okay.

Right.

But now in the social media world, the beauty of influencers is it's niched down, right? So I might look to whatever Kim Kardashian for beauty tips or this one for that, or And then they've got their followers so people can, advertisers can look and say, oh, if I want to go after this type of demographic psychographic, that's an influencer for me. But your sweet spot is going, okay, just because you got a lot of people and you're popular doesn't mean you have a credibility. Like, why should we take Kim Kardashian? I mean, I'm not beating up on Kim, but yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, Kim Kardashian's advice on nutrition, she doesn't have any degrees in nutrition. She doesn't, you know, she eats 3 times a day like I do. So. Your model is really, really cool. Talk about what you've done, which I think—

Yeah, so that's, I mean, that's exactly right. We only focus on people who are accredited professionals in their very specific niche. So you're absolutely right when you talk about what influencer is today. Influencer is a billboard. A billboard served their purpose and influence still works, but it works at the very top of the funnel. It works as an awareness driver. It does not work as the converting mechanism that it used to because everybody is aware of it now. Everybody's used to it. So when you think about it, like what we've done is we've really become the first movers, thought leaders, and trusted expert product content for commerce. And the way that we've done it is instead of using a Kim Kardashian to talk about makeup, we use Kim Kardashian's makeup artist who has 20 years of experience being a professional makeup artist. And then you could get more specific and you could go into wedding makeup artists or runway makeup, uh, television. And the whole idea now too is it doesn't matter how many followers somebody has because the algorithms are going to make you pay if you want anybody to see it. So Meta is very aware of what influencer marketing is and they know that if there's a brand being promoted, they are going to suppress that content unless you pay to boost it. So our whole thing is you could buy reach, but you cannot buy expertise.

And I think that's the key because I think if you think of this from a, You know, sort of on a pyramid or next level, you're saying, okay, yeah, maybe you listen to Kim because her, or whatever, her eyes look pretty or something like this. But then what? Are you really going to take her advice on whatever? So when you think about the experts that one should be listening to, whether they have the reach or not. So what you're really doing is filtering out the expertise to say, whether you know it or not, this is Peter, this is who you should really listen to if you're someone that is thinking about, you know, putting together a home gym. Right?

Because that's absolutely right. That's absolutely right. I mean, for the home gym thing, we have NFL players, but we have their trainers. We have Olympic athletes. We have American Ninja Warriors. And they could talk about putting together their home gym in a totally different way than a celebrity, you know, than a Kim Kardashian is able to. These are the people who do it for the Kim Kardashians of the world. So you do naturally lean in when you hear somebody who's clearly educated on a particular topic that you have interest in. And that's what our content at the Desire Company does. It takes over where influencer leaves off. So influencer is that billboard, hey, this product exists, I'm going to drive some awareness, but then what? To your point, I want to lean in now and understand more about this particular product and how to use it. What are the results that I could expect?

If you're enjoying this episode of Leveraging Thought Leadership, please make sure to subscribe. If you'd like to help spread the word about our podcast, please leave a 5-star review at ratethispodcast.com/LTL and share it with your friends. We're available on Apple Podcasts and on all major listening apps at as well as at thoughtleadershipleverage.com/podcast. Let me pivot a little bit. So now let's take this to sort of bridge my world and your world, right? So here's the world of thought leadership. I don't do B2C, right? So nobody's coming to me asking for makeup advice or nutrition advice or gym advice. Thank God. They might ask me for a restaurant recommendation, but yeah. Right. But that's because I like to eat. But think about the B2B side of this. Right? And I think that's, you and I had an interesting conversation around that, right? So an organization is thinking, hey, it would be good if we learned how to innovate better, how to collaborate better, how to negotiate better, et cetera. How does that play out in your world or how will that be?

Yeah. So we, we are a B2B platform. We are B2B2C. So we provide the content for the consumer, but we do it through retailers and through brands. But I'll just back up and going back into your world and where the thought leadership plays a role and how this evolves to help our business is in, you know, going back real fast to my last business, I was trying to get into Microsoft for years. I was trying to do music for Microsoft for many years, cold calling, knocking on the door. Nobody picked up. Nobody invited me in. I ended up having a book published by Macmillan.

Yes.

Uh, on a marketing thought leadership topic that I, I trademarked called Social Empowerment. Connecting the consumer beyond the product and create an emotional relationship so that they actually talk about your product out in their life, in the real world.

Yep.

So the book came out, became a number one bestseller. Microsoft calls me and flew me out, put me up and paid me to come in and speak to all their marketers. Right.

So stay there a minute, 'cause that's, that is critical, right? So the day before you wrote the book, you were no less smart or smarter than the day after, but what the book, and it doesn't have to be a book, but using book as sort of in your space, but it could be the idea of thought leadership, whatever. Now they're calling you and saying, can you come on in? And by the way, here's a big fat check and we'll put you up in a nice hotel and all that and talk to us. You would have paid, I mean, you couldn't get yourself away. You're, you're probably, security's probably throwing you out the front door before that. So I love that the, that the thought leadership that you developed, that you became known for is the door opener. And by the way, who cares how many books you sold? That one book that got to the one Microsoft executive. Was a game changer for you.

Absolutely. And they do buy all your books to hand out to all their marketers. So that's a good thing. And you know, I ended up doing a European book tour for like 6 months and all these places that I could not get the time of day, all of a sudden were, you know, rolling out the red carpet to have me come in. So that thought leadership angle, it is what people need. The problem that I think exists out there is why should I trust this one versus this one? And that book was my stamp of credibility. Then when Coca-Cola, you know, bought my part of my company, that was, you know, that press just made everybody feel comfortable. Like, oh, okay, this company, I'm going to invite them in. They're going to help us out. And the same thing now exists where it's a challenge in with the Desire Company that people are used to the influencer model. They know reviews are broke, but there's nothing out there. We're coming with, you got to emotionally connect with your consumers. Reviews aren't cutting it and influencer isn't cutting it anymore.

We're going to give you this thoughtful information, but we're still at that early point where I think it's really early because I still think we're living in a world where, you know, you have a conversation with somebody and they'll say, oh yeah, well, and I think this. I'll say, well, why do you think that? And I don't want to get political. Well, I read it. Well, where did you read it? Oh, online. Okay. Well, that could have been somebody's dopey's brother-in-law with an opinion on whatever. And not all opinions are created equal. Like it doesn't matter. What I think about 99% of the things in the world to most people, where there's a little bit of what matters is in my domain expertise. That's where you should listen to me. Anything else, it needs, it almost needs to be, you know, asterisk, just an opinion. Right. And I think—

Fact-check that. Yeah. It's hard.

Yeah. And sometimes someone could have confidence, charisma, energy, a brand, whatever it is. And people are generally lazy and say, well, I heard some, you know, talking head or whatever, or I, I saw this or I saw that, but I love that you're, you're pretty much raising the bar and I do believe you are really, really early in the game. And my hope is that people say, well, who is this? Who, why should I listen to so-and-so and so-and-so? And in your case, they can say, it's not because I've got more Twitter followers than you, but this is my education, my experience, my domain expertise, my, my, you know, this is where I am and what I do. I love that.

Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, we're experts on experts. That's what we do. And we provide a totally different way of going about marketing. As an example, one of our clients there came out with new eye drops and new vitamins for your eyes to help with the dry eye as well. Instead of going to an optometrist, we got them NASCAR drivers and professional gamers. So these are two careers where you are taught not to blink. So for them to talk about their dry eye and, and the, and the use of this particular product, connects with a consumer way beyond even what a doctor and optometrist would be talking about because you actually relate to it if you're hitting the right demographic with that content.

So telling a gamer, here's something that can give you a competitive edge in gaming, is far better than any eye doctor would be like, what's Minecraft? Like, they don't even like this. Those two worlds don't collide, right?

And yeah, and the kids would ignore it if it came from a doctor.

Yeah.

Comes from Derek.

Right.

If it comes from a professional gamer, all of a sudden they're gonna look and they're gonna be interested and they're gonna purchase and it happens and they're gonna enjoy that product because it's got a use case specifically right for them.

Got it. So if someone's out there in a situation where you were, let's say a year or two, three before the book, they've got, they've got passion, they know there's a market for it, but they're, you know, their knuckles are bleeding from knocking on doors, right? It's just not happening. What would you advise them, or in this case, maybe you, X years ago?

Yeah, I mean, I actually sat and I thought about at the point at before the book, how do I do this? What are the steps that I need to take? And I started on panels, just get me on a panel so that I could start voicing my vision.

Visualize the idea, just talk it out.

Yeah, let me talk through it. Then those panels moved into keynotes. I started putting out white papers. Pretty regularly putting out white papers. I became a frequent guest on podcasts and, and radio. And then I was able to take everything from, you know, a good 2 years of putting this together to write the book. And it was really—

you sort of forensically wrote the book, right? So when you talk about a white paper, I just want to be clear. Some people think of a white paper as sort of a faux marketing thing, but when you're talking about a white paper, I'm assuming it's based in research, based in fact, based in—

it's not a little—

and Eric. Yeah. Okay. And I think the market's getting smarter, right? So then you've got all this stuff out there. You're trying it, you're testing. I mean, the beautiful thing about being on panels is the bar's pretty low, right? You don't have to ask to be paid. You could test out ideas and go, oh, okay, that was a question I want to ask again, right? You're testing the ideas in real time, you know, polishing them, polishing them, polishing them, then move it to a white paper. Then when you wrote the book, it was pretty, I, I would say, and tell me if I'm, I'm reading the tea leaves wrong, it was really a forensic activity, right? Let me go backward and stitch together all the stuff I know.

100%. And it was interviewing clients that we had worked with, the aftereffect of, of working with us. And so yes, it was absolutely that. And I'm in the same process now with the Desire Company. So we, we put out white papers and to your point, the white paper that we have out right now and that we're updating is all about the new FTC laws that go into effect next month. So they've been talking about this for years. We put out a white paper a year ago on it, and now everything that's been a recommendation from the FTC around reviews and influencers is becoming law. $50,000 fines per violation. So we're updating our white paper. But again, like, that is just fact.

Yeah.

And, you know, I'm speaking with you. I'm on panels. I'm able— I'm starting to give keynotes. And there will be another book in the future.

I love it.

I haven't worked it all out yet, but that's part of the process is exactly what you said. We're out here, we're talking about it, we're testing, we're seeing what's resonating. And to your point, sometimes, you know, being too early is the same thing as being wrong.

So it's, yeah, sometimes being too early, what you, you know, it's great that you're right, but what you don't want to see is, well, you gave up on it and 5 years later somebody else comes and, you know, which is the, it's at the table, right?

Like, so that's the toughest thing in the world. I mean, my dad's best friend always tells me about it. My, uh, he reminds me at my childhood science fair, I made an electric skateboard. I was just 20 minutes too early. So, and it died. I didn't have any money or anything to keep it going. So, uh, or to develop it. And, but yes, I mean that you cannot be too early for the market. Otherwise it's never going to stick. And then somebody comes around and takes your idea.

Love it. Well, this has been great. I really, really appreciate your time, Eric, and I love what you're doing. Thank you.

Well, thank you, Peter. I appreciate it.

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