Beyond Retirement: Building a Legacy of Generous Leadership | Joe Davis |651

And welcome, welcome, welcome. This is Peter Winick. I'm the founder and CEO at Thought Leadership Leverage, and you're joining us on our podcast today, which is Leveraging Thought Leadership. Today, my guest is Joe Davis. He's an award-winning author and speaker on a mission to bring generosity to leadership. From 1987 to 2025, he was at Boston Consulting Group, BCG, where he served as managing director. And senior partner. Joe led BCG North America and founded its Center for Inclusion and Equity. He's got a book which is called The Generous Leader. It offers a 7-part guide to heartfelt and collaborative actions that transform the reader into a generous leader. So without further ado, how did this happen? So one stellar career at BCG, and now, you know, in the good old days, you would've been off playing shuffleboard and they would've given you a watch and said, good luck, Joe. Right. But, but you established yourself as a thought leader. Right. So how did, when did that happen? How did that happen? And, and now it's, how is it different now post-BCG life?

Well, that's a, the second half of that question is a very rich question in my stage in life. Well, the first half, you know, it's, you're right. 'Cause my gosh, 35 years of BCG starting running offices, opening businesses, running North America, you'd think I'd be on the golf course. About during COVID actually it was during COVID when it was a great time. If you were a leader with some empathy and all that and able to listen and connect, it was a great time to be a leader, obviously, because everybody was uncertain, et cetera.

Hold on a second. I don't know if I've ever heard anybody say it was a great time to be a leader during COVID I said, if you're one who led with empathy, able to connect with your people and a good listener. Cause those, you know, we've eliminated 96%.

Okay. Oh, well, whatever. But those, yeah, I guess the famous videos are like Arne Sorensen, the Marriott CEO who was giving a talk to his employees about, I'm not sure when we'll open while he's dying of cancer and he's bald from it. You know, those are the moments. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. They shown at that time. But anyway, following that, people, friends of mine at BCG said, you should write a book about that, you know, that leadership experience. Kind of funny to brief. I started the book, a lot of COVID in it, shared it with one publisher. The editor said, no go. So what do you mean? She goes, nobody will want to read about COVID the COVID times. I mean, unless you write it right now and it publishes this minute and it takes them 2 years to publish a book, as you know. Right, right. So I expanded it across more of my life and I interviewed a lot of clients, well, CEO executives at BCG, I knew through BCG. Who I consider ones who lead the way I've described it. I wrote this book. When I was writing it, I also, it's funny, I said to a friend, I said, I don't know, you know, Brené Brown's got a million copies and so and so, what the heck am I going to be, another guy? He said, Joe, if you move 8 people to maybe change their leadership style a bit, it'll be successful. Now, the other reason I did do this is, you know, maybe you're not, surely you're not there yet, but you know, you start to think about, okay, what is the next thing? And if you don't start to set up the next, like, what's my post-PCG life, which could be golfing, right?

And I wanna stay there a minute 'cause I've been fortunate to work with what I call sort of these legacy executives, right? So these folks that have had stellar careers and most, as you say, would play golf or travel the world or get the fancy toys and all that sort of stuff. But one of the things, not the thing, but one of the primary things they want to do in that next phase when they don't have the operational responsibility and the board meetings and jumping on, you know, 3 planes a month to, to Asia and all that stuff. What really drives them? 'Cause you're at a stage where you can do anything you want and anything might be nothing or buy a vineyard or whatever the hell it is. But this is, you, this is something that is so authentic that you're so passionate about that you're spending your most valuable resources, which is your time at this stage in life, in essence evangelizing this way of thinking. Right? So I, I've worked with lots of CEOs, not enough.

There are more and more that, that are sort of thinking about it.

And when the ideas start to happen is not at the dinner where they're all roasting you or whatever the case is, but probably 2 years before, maybe 3 years before you start to, so tell me about that. Like when did it start to, well, an idea that said maybe this will be what I'll do?

Yeah. I mean, I was fortunate. There's a program at BCG called Act 3. We, it's, a coach, you know, and he, 50 to 55-year-olds there, which there's not many, that many of BCG, think about what would be your act, your next act. And they really, they, this fellow encourages you to think, okay, you know, to start thinking that through. So it sort of began then, but I'm also, I shouldn't say I'm no dummy. I've read enough books, like, okay, what is the next thing? And just sitting around, all you start to do is die. Oh, I hate to say that, but that's, you know, you slow down, deteriorate, you die. So, so you could see to your point, and you also think about what was my purpose? What is your purpose? And I, I mean, it's not funny, but for me it was, okay, really help others to grow and thrive at their full potential. That's what I like best at BCG. When people ask me, what do you remember most? I can say name clients. I can name businesses that, you know, took off or turned around. But the people who said, you know, Joe, you said this to me and that just changed my trajectory. That, yeah, you're smiling. Yeah. You think that feels good, you know?

Right.

It started, yeah.

It's funny that you, that you say that because you're not, you know, you, you, you sort of go backwards in time thinking about that when you're in your 30s or 40s or whatever. Most would say, oh, it was that quarter I got the million-dollar bonus or the first time I got the big office or the whatever, the accoutrements and, and, or I really, really, you know, I turned that company around and that's a brand that you would like. Something like that. It's none of that. Not that none of that matters. It does. Right. But it's, it's getting connecting on a one-on-one level and getting someone to light up and say, I see you. I hear you.

I get you. Well, yeah. And I'll tell you, I think Peter Winick, most of none of that does matter. I mean, let's be honest. I mean, Steven Jobs will be remembered for the phone, but I read somewhere, will he be remembered 4,000 years from now? Who knows what's, you know, that's a long, but you know, Procter and Gamble, you don't know their name, but they founded, but there's like, I mean, Jack Welch is remembered for GE falling apart. I mean, no offense to Jack Welch, but he was good. But there aren't many that are remembered for all that stuff, you know, and you're going to read. I read, well, I read, just was reading Strength to Strength, you know, the Brooks book. And it's a little funny, but he said, you know, you shouldn't be collecting those things. You should be thinking about what is your eulogy going to be? Even at 30, what do you want? Now that's possible for a 30-year-old to think like that. What do you want someone to say? Not even your retirement dinner, because you're there. So it's all bullshit. You know, they're all going to tell you you're wonderful. What do you want the world to say about you? You will not talk about the third Ferrari or even the great trip you had around the world that was very meaningful and exciting. But that's because that's for you. It's not for anybody else. Right, right. I love it.

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My life.

And the reason, uh, I'm asking is I think there are a lot of senior execs, CEOs, leaders in their 50s or 60s or whatever it is, and they're thinking, yeah, that would be kind of a cool next chapter, but what does it look like? Because I know now what it looks like. I know I've got my strategic planning meeting in the fall and the this tour and the, like, I know the stuff and the rhythm, but geez, what, What time do I wake up? What do I do? Like, what does it look like?

Well, that's, you know, I mean, let me just say, if you're really going to try to give back, help others, you know, teach and all that, what it looks like will vary for you. I mean, I'm discovering more and more, you know, something I sent a note to a friend of mine, hey, would you coach an ex, a guy at BCG, would you coach me? I said, sure, let's book once a month for an hour and we'll cancel a third of them because you'll be busy, not me. For me, it's, you know, actually people reach out or you reach out to them, would you want to be coached? That's the most satisfying because it's someone that really wants you. I, you know, I mean, I wrote the book partly, let's be honest, books are calling cards to do things like podcasts, talk, you know, talk to groups where I can manage.

But stay there a minute with the book because I would argue that yes, a book is a calling card and a book also is a forcing mechanism to get you to get your ideas.

Yes, there's a lot of good things.

Yeah. So there's a lot of selfish reasons to write a book, whether anybody ever reads it, right? Get your thinking tight and all that other sort of stuff. But I would argue based on your personal career, BCG, et cetera, you wouldn't have a problem being busy if you didn't have a book.

That's the second half.

Okay.

The other thing, yes, I vote now. I've actually board interviews to be on boards. I just had the first small startup want me to be a strategic advisor. So that kind of stuff. But either you make all that happen early or it starts once you say you're retired, because then they believe you have time. No one believes you have time until the day you're out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, right. And the calls start coming and that's where you have to be careful. I had a board member friend, maybe 30 years ago, he was the board of a client and he said, you know, I worked hard when I was working, but it's worse now because I'm on 9 boards. My wife's furious because he had no control. You know, if you are the CEO, you might work all the time, but you have control. I am going to go home right now. See you all later. You know, you can't do that if you're on 9 boards. And that's the thing you have to be careful about. It's your point of the question because you could fill yourself, oh, this will be cool to be an advisor here. Board member there, help this company and coach 7 people. And then when you have to wake up at 7 o'clock, I will tell you, you're pissed. You say, wait a minute, I am now supposed to be able to wake up whenever I want. It could be 6 o'clock today. It could be 9. Well, not 9, that's hard, but whatever it is for you. So you do really need to think hard and not— everyone said to me, now we're getting ahead. Do not take the first thing that comes along. Do not take it. Do not. Maybe it's the most incredible thing in the world. You gotta think about it, but do not take it because other things will come. And you'll put yourself in whatever.

So a little bit, I've seen two different categories, if you will. And it's not like I've worked with hundreds of CEOs, but enough to be able to sort of have an understanding. So one category says yes to everything. And, and to your point, you know, they wake up 6 months later and they're like, geez, I'm on 5 boards and doing this and I'm teaching at the university. And I'm like, ah, this, this is, this is hectic.

They've lost the control.

And then there's the other ones, and one I'm thinking of in particular that, that would say they're complete and utter failures as retirees where that quote retirement period might last. In one case it was a weekend, another it's 6 months, and they dive back in and take another similar role. Or maybe they go to a startup if they were at a Fortune 1000 or whatever. It seems like you've stuck to the plan to some degree. You're not tempted to go back in the deep end, right?

Well, yeah, I know when I was, I talked to a search firm guy in like September. What are you quitting for? I said, I'm 67. He said, Joe, you got more energy coming through this Zoom than most people. You, you could, I said, well, come on, buddy. I can't. Oh no, no. People would love you as a 5-year, 5-year, you know, short-term team. So I was intrigued, but I thought, wait a minute, that's not what I want to go back into. 37 years of BCG. I don't need to go back to that. But I will say to your point, Peter, you know, some people that my brother-in-law and another very good friend of mine, this oldest friend, his wife's actually now the head of North America. He was on his, he's on his third CEO gig. And I said, what are you doing? He said, well, you know, Joe, I'm just not ready to get out of the game. And he's not that old, but so if you're not ready to get out of the game, stay in the game for a while longer. That, you know, if that's what's— yeah, yeah, yeah. I had no problem. Now if you just, oh God, I can't, I'm useless and I'm nobody unless I'm a fancy leader, then yeah, you should go get some help. Sorry, but that's what you should, or read every book about it in the world and read and pay attention to what you're reading.

So, so let me ask you what might be a silly question. As a CEO, at some level, it's really easy to measure success. Did we hit our goals this quarter? What, you know, did our stock price go up? Did our revenue go up? Did our sales go up? Did our, like, there's maybe 6, 8, 10 numbers that matter at, at the end of the day. So at, at one level, although it's not easy to achieve those goals, what they are is fairly straightforward. Right? What is it now? How do you measure success?

It's funny you ask. It's very complicated.

It's very complicated.

So it's funny you ask that because I said, okay, I want to— I mean, this book's now a year in, it's still selling. I thought, oh, should I have a goal for the book still? And I said, I want to give talks. So should I have a goal for how many talks I should give this year? I'm writing this shit down. I wrote it down and I thought, you know, it doesn't really matter. That's not the stage of life I'm in. Exactly. But I— now this is where it's— what I have to know is, am I getting up? It's really difficult what you've asked, Peter. I mean, am I feeling good about what I'm doing? To me, I'm thinking, am I actually slowing down and not feeling like I deteriorated? 'Cause I was go, go, go, go, go, go. I mean, I'll tell you one thing I'm measuring, not measuring, but I have a 5-year-old grandson. I have 8 grandchildren, but he's just so close to me right now. And how many times do you see he just sit right there and cuddle a 5-year-old boy cuddling? Now I don't count that, but when that happens, like, ah, today was a good day. Now that was a, you know, that's when you get to that spot. Now, if you need to work and want to work, work, it's okay. But not if you're gone 24 hours a day. You know, we've all heard the good friend of mine, Art Peck, BCG, was head of Gap. He was on a plane with somebody and the guy was talking about their talk and they're both working hard. He's maybe 62 at the time. He said, you know, my wife said to me something yesterday. She said, you know, honey, you have 17 summers left. How are you spending Summers. Yeah. God. Well, you know, if you think about it, you think that way and you go, is this what I want to do this Christmas? Is this what I want to do this summer? And now, but this is really hard for people.

Well, that would make me nervous because what if you get to your 18th and 19th summer and your wife says, well, you're in extra innings now. We're going to have— I was only counting on 17.

Well, I don't know how good the marriage was. What's the person next door? It wasn't Art, but— Anyway, the point, of course, is, you know, you got— now you have this, you know, there you had forever time. You're 30, you got all the time in the world, unless fluke.

But that shift in mindset, right? That shift, that's hard, right? Because you don't get to the positions you've gotten to at BCG by not having a plan, by not being able to execute, by not being able to—

and I, yeah, I know. I mean, I was— well, two things. Yes. And I was lucky that I had the book because the book just opened. I can be on podcasts, I can give talks. So at least I've, if I need to feel like, oh, someone thinks I'm important, you know, now I've started to shift it. You know, I had a bit of a plan, but yeah, it can be a major mindset, mindset shift. I had, BCG does something else. It doesn't matter what the 2 years bridge path you say in 2 years, I'm quitting and you'll get 75% and 50%. It is a gift. I mean, if you're a CEO and want to give a gift to your fellow executives that are 55 plus. Give them some version of a ramp out because that's the way I just wanna make sure I understand.

So it's not binary. That's, you know, Friday's your last day and Monday you go to zero. So you go from 100% exact to 75%. That's brilliant, right? No.

Yes, it's brilliant. It's brilliant. And so really at 75%, you're still, well, the way BCG does it, you have to still generate revenue. The 50% year you don't generate revenue.

So you're kind of not Wait, if you say a consulting firm and you don't generate revenue in the same sentence, oh my God.

Yeah. Well, but you're, you gotta be around 25 years of good stands, all this stuff.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. However, that I can, I attribute a lot of the smooth ramp to that ramp instead of spending, you know, I had another friend that said to me, oh, Joe, be careful. Cause he just quit. He said, 6 months, you'll do your honey-do list, your own honey-do list, not me. Yeah. And then you're out of things on the list and you say, now what am I going to do?

Everything's done. I mean, how many times could you clean out the garage?

Right. That's exactly the point. That closet that drove you nuts forever. So yeah, I quickly realized let the closet be full. Really does. It just doesn't fucking matter. I shouldn't swear. Doesn't bloody matter. You know, it's just a closet.

I love it. It's been great. And I appreciate your candor and transparency. And I think there's a, there's a lot of wisdom here, right? No rapid fire wisdom for 20 minutes, but it's, uh, Yeah, no, and I think most importantly, you're having a blast, you're having fun, you're doing good stuff, you're teaching people things. And I would argue if you didn't like it, you'd say, I'm out of here, I'm going to go figure something else out.

So, of course, yeah, actually, that's the big thing. People should take away that too. If you jump into something, I know I like, I'd like doing this, do not do it. Go do the next thing. Somebody will want you to help out somewhere, you know, there's no shame.

Well, I appreciate it, Joe. Thank you for coming on. Thank you.

This is awesome.

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