Blending Disciplines to Create Powerful Thought Leadership | Selena Rezvani | 540

And welcome, welcome, welcome. This is Peter Winick. I'm the founder and CEO at Thought Leadership Leverage, and you're joining us on the podcast today, which is Leveraging Thought Leadership. Today, my guest is Selena Revzani, who has a pretty extensive bio here. So she is a speaker, a mom, and a confidence creator. She is a, uh, an author. She's written a couple of books, the latest one being Quick Confidence, and then she did another one called Pushback and another one called Next Generation of Women Leaders. She's got a ton of followers on social. She writes for NBC's Know Your Value. What else do we have here? Lots of other interesting things. Let's just dive right in. How are you today?

I'm good, and thank you for all you do for thought leaders and emerging ones.

Thank you. So on that note, how did you, how did you land here? Right? Like there is no linear go here and get an MBA in thought leadership that I know of yet. Maybe there's an opportunity there. So how did, how did this happen for you?

Well, like a lot of things, not in a linear way. I was actually a young management consultant and I had a boss who left kind of quickly and inherited a brand new boss. And one of the first changes she made was All the consultants here are gonna publish 2 times a year. They're gonna write articles, original pieces, and present at conferences 2 times a year. And you need to propose it, do it completely on your own, but it's part of your job now.

So let, let me ask you about that though, cuz I love that, but I'm, I might be a touch biased, but was that tied to bonus comp? Like what was the carrot and what was the stick?

It wasn't. It was— she came from an academic background. She had a PhD, you know, and I think she said, this is what's going to build our credibility as a newer practice. And I'm so grateful to her for it because while I was kind of incredulous, you know, like, you're asking me what? You expect what? I've never done this. I was also deep down a little bit thrilled by the challenge and You know, lo and behold, you know, you write that first article and you get feedback and you, you know, tweak it and it ends up out there in the world. And she really started something. And I'm not sure without her push I would have started when I did. But I'm so grateful because it got me comfortable. It got my feet wet.

So I love that. So what was the reinforcement, right? Because you could do all that. Hard work, put it out there, polish it up, etc., and then crickets. Was there a reinforcement in terms of career trajectory, new client acquisitions, people taking meetings with you that might not have before? Like, what was the— was there a short-term, maybe midterm benefit that you were able to notice?

I did, but it was more personal and maybe less of a direct benefit, which was agency, having a voice, you know, not just being part of a corporation and a team, but suddenly having a unique perspective that you could put out there for people to react to and disagree and agree and build on. And I believe that taste that thought leadership gave me ultimately led me to go off on my own to get up the gumption to do bigger things like write books and pitch publishers and things like that. Yeah.

So after consulting, you're building this thought leadership. Which is, you know, as, as long as you're aligned to the objectives of your employer during the time that you're doing it, it's great. But as we all know, it's transportable. Like, you get to take your name with you and all the things that you've written with you with a couple of asterisks around that. But right. So you, you now have— you're now known. What do you do next?

So I had a kind of untraditional degree for being a management consultant working on people issues. I had a degree in social work, and while that was great for problem solving and looking at people issues, I couldn't really speak the language of my clients who were looking at spreadsheets and balance sheets and things like this. And so I got an MBA.

And most consulting firms are charging exponentially more than what a typical social worker would be charging.

Yes, there's a little difference there. I was definitely able to pay my student loans back better, I'll put it that way. Exactly. But I pursued an MBA in the evening. And I thought, you know what? I love this intersection. It'd be even cooler if I could bring some of what I'm learning and specifically look at women in leadership.

And so— Let me pause you there. So you've got—

Yeah.

Because I'm always fascinated by sort of this cross-pollination or this where the seams are. So you have women, leadership, consulting, and social work, right? So the social work is the one that we don't usually hear in that same bucket. But what's interesting is anytime you can bring some of the frameworks, the principles, the thinking of one discipline, social work, into management consulting with a focus, like you said, on leadership and women, cool stuff happens.

It is. And of course, it doesn't seem that way at the beginning of the story. Sure. You know, you open some wrong doors along the way too. But it does create a hybrid, very cool POV and perspective. I think is great. But I got the thought leadership opportunity of my life while getting that MBA. And that is I got the chance to direct a piece of research on my own that I could propose needed to be accepted. And I had one female professor at Johns Hopkins. She said— I said, I know just what I want to do. I want to interview C-level women leaders at the top of their game. And she said, you can do it on one condition, Selena. You have to go for the giants, the women that you think will never entertain an interview. And sure enough, I did, thanks to her. And so many of these women said yes, and those interviews changed my life to the point that I pitched it to a publisher. I said, I'm not that unique, this could help other kind of ambitious professionals. And that was, uh, such a, a gift on a silver platter.

So let's stay there for a minute because there's, I'm this, I'm loving this conversation because one of the benefits of thought leadership is the relationship development, right? So you had no reason to speak to any of these C-level rockstar women.

Yeah.

As a management consultant, right? Like you, they probably wouldn't, probably wouldn't be in meetings with them, right? But now because you're doing a piece of research on something that is of interest to you and obviously a of interest, of concern, a passion to them. Now they're taking those calls and it's the beginning of a relationship. They wanna see how the article comes out. They wanna, who else are you talking to? Right? So I think that concept of conflating relationship development slash business development with thought leadership content development is one that not a, not enough people in my opinion really look at strategically and say, ah, this is an interesting way to, kill two birds with one stone.

Yeah, you're so right. Especially because you're kind of enlisting them in a cause more than even a piece of research. You know, they had a clear connection to like empowering the next generation of women. And those that said yes tended to say yes pretty quickly. I think because it spoke to something they already like to perpetuate.

And then there might be a generational piece where they're supporting someone a bit younger and—

Yes, yes.

—the glass ceiling and yeah. Now, how many of those women that you interviewed— how long ago was this, 10 years ago?

So this was 2009 when I got my start. When that book published in November of 2009, I quit the world of management consulting and went off on my own to speak full-time. And all my gratitude to that MBA professor who gave me the push because that book became a second book. Yeah. Became a third, a mission. Really a life that I'm so grateful, you know, that I get to work on that.

So how many of those women are you still or were you in touch with for some period of time after the article was published, after the academic research was done?

I would say about two-thirds. Sometimes I'll get feedback from them, even if somebody is not especially responsive, just kind of like keep up the updates. Like, I like hearing how things are going. I love that. So that's even appreciated.

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Or then what? Either one. Uh-huh. Yeah. Okay. You know, I wanted to explore these issues more. The book got out into the world and I started speaking and getting some speaking experience and confidence, which, as you know, is its whole own different animal than writing and learning to pitch your writing. And that was a thrill to go to some places. I, I didn't even charge money initially. I said, Harvard Women in Business Club, will you have me? You know, I have a book that I think is really relevant to your audience. And did work like that with law firms initially. And thankfully didn't need to do that for too long in an unpaid capacity. But I think having—

How does it go for you? From unpaid to paid. And what I mean is there's a couple ways that could happen. One is you made a deliberate focus on high-profile strategic unpaid and then went into the market. Or sometimes, you know, I've heard the story of, oh, and then someone called and offered to pay me for that. You know, like, how did that happen for you?

Yeah. So name recognition is meaningful to the people I was speaking to. Yeah. Because many of the women I interviewed came from recognizable companies. And I was speaking to a corporate audience. So not all women, not women entrepreneurs and women in government, right? I was really speaking to a more niche audience of corporate women professionals. And so that's who was the most responsive in, in wanting to hire me. And as shaky as I felt initially saying, answering the question, what is your rate, which they inevitably asked, I started at a probably obscenely low number. And I, like, I wanna say like $800 or just something that sounds hard to maintain and pay your bills. And people said yes. If they didn't, it wasn't personal, you know, like I, I think I feared it would be like, oh, you asking for that? I don't think so.

It was more like, well, one of the themes I'm hearing from you is, is that you're not afraid to ask, right? So I think it's probably harder to sell yourself to these senior women that you're reaching out to than it is to sell as a speaker, right? So I think a lot of folks, you know, are allergic to or having a, a, a negative reaction to sales, but when you break it down and say, well, That was actually a sales job that you did, right? Like talking to those women. And then marketing combined with sales is really how you position yourself as a speaker. And you have to also be thinking about how do I differ— I'm a product in the marketplace, right? How do I differentiate? That's right.

And that there's a value to this original research I've done, just like there is for anyone else who goes out there, sees a need, says there's not much material speaking to this particular audience. I'd like to fill a gap. You have to value that. You can't just say, uh, anybody coulda or woulda. There is a value to that. And it's funny you bring this up about the business development part because it's what spurred my second book, which is about women and negotiating. I was suddenly doing so much of it and of course, preaching that you've got to value yourself. You've got to own your authority. Ask for what you need. Don't settle. And yet I found plenty of challenges too in doing it. So I enlisted a new group of 20 C-level women to say, how can people accelerate their path with doing this? Because there's so many tripwires.

So now what's the next phase for you? So you've got a great business, right? You're doing the stuff that you love, you're writing, you're doing all the things that you dreamed of doing. Dozen-plus years ago, 15 years ago, whatever, when you started. What are the things that you have yet to conquer that you'd like to conquer?

I want to keep an experimental mindset. You know, I didn't have that, Peter, the first many, many years. It was like a book and speak and write and you speak. And those were the possibilities kind of in front of me. I feel so differently now. My latest book, Quick Confidence, came about from a newsletter that went viral. So that wouldn't have happened without some experimentation. You know, hey, I think there's an idea here. I think there's an audience that will appreciate this and, you know, use this.

Let me ask you on that. So I've heard variations on that theme as well where, you know, one way to write a book is here's my idea, here's the book, and I'm gonna lock down and, you know, spend 2 years and da da da da da, and then release it into the wild and see what happens, right? Pretty high risk, right? Yeah. Yes. But it's very polished, it's very well done, et cetera. The other way is you're constantly throwing stuff out there in whatever format you'd like. It could be a quick video, it could be an article, it could be whatever. And what I have found is we are really bad judges of what will resonate most with the market. Sometimes it's the The stuff that you were almost embarrassed to hit send, like, that's not even— I'm not really sure, but I love that experimental mindset because by definition, some experiments fail and some succeed. It's not a reflection of you are a failure or you are less than. It's like, oh, okay, that idea that I thought would have been kind of cool, nobody cared about, but this other thing, like, everybody's all over that, right?

That's such a great way to put it. And I love how you said it because you're right. You're you're putting more shots on goal, you know? And that's how I think of it. And same thing with going into TikTok. I heard a business thought leader say, whatever you do, don't go on TikTok. Um, and yet that's been a really fruitful, positive place with lots of professionals seeking information, great conversation. Spokesperson opportunities have come out of that. So again, without that experimental mindset, I'm not sure that would've been there. And for me, that's That's winning right now is to continue trying things. And by the way, I don't want to make it out like they're all home runs because I had what I call this year a flopportunity. I tried a particular product that didn't work. So that's in the mix.

Say more about that. What was the product?

Yeah, that's in the mix too. It was a kind of paid community. Okay. That would go on in perpetuity. So versus like a program that's 6 weeks or 2 months. This was an open-ended program, and the traction in it wasn't what I hoped for initially. But you either win or you learn. Yep. And that's kind of how I need to think about it to keep the experimental mindset.

No, I love that. And so, you know, sometimes you say, well, why didn't that work? You know, it's— I, I designed a great program. This would have been a rich experience, whatever. And then maybe, and I, I don't know, maybe, you know, maybe the answer is, hmm, distribution, sales, marketing. Maybe it's that side. Maybe it is a great product. I just haven't figured out how to sell it yet. And you might take that off the shelf in a year or two or three when a light bulb goes off and say, ooh, that would be a great strategic distribution partner, whatever. So sometimes it's not that it, it's a, you know, failure is not necessarily binary. It's, I, I didn't succeed at doing it the way I tried right now.

Yeah. Nothing's wasted. Yeah. And I think that's an important part to the approach because you're right. Oftentimes in the moment it's like, oh, this was a complete waste of ingredients. But later you do pull it off the shelf or you refine it or you integrate 25% of it that's valuable into something else.

So often what I see thought leaders do is, you know, they, they create stuff and then the stuff has a life cycle that is a function of their attention span, right? You just get bored of By the time you have a book out, it's kind of 2 years old in your mind. Yeah. Right. And then you're already on to sort of the next thing. So sometimes it's worthwhile to sort of go big picture and say, let me, let me look at all the assets I've created, whether they were failures or successes, and see if there's a way to bring them to market differently. Or maybe there's things changing in the marketplace. Or I was talking to somebody the other day, actually yesterday I was interviewing for the podcast and they said, you know, yeah, I was running this agency and, and, you know, we had been 150-person agency. We've been remote for years. And it was part of our story, but not a big part. And then COVID came and everybody was fascinated and he put a book out really quickly that hit. There was a moment in time, right? That moment's gone away, but there was a moment in time where like something that was sort of somewhat interesting, a part of who they were, everybody went to, how do you do that? How do you do, you know, like whatever. So I think you have to revisit your stuff and say, is for some reason now, because the market's changing, the world's changing, whatever, a time to try it again.

I think so. And you often need people outside of yourself, I think, to look at those with you and say, here's an angle we haven't considered. Here's an untapped area we've not experimented with because you can get a little bit tunnel vision. Yeah.

Well, it can be lonely being a thought leader, right? When you're getting that outside perspective is helpful. Well, this has been great. I really, really appreciate your story and your journey and all the great things that you're doing. Thank you so much. Thank you.

Thank you, Peter Winick.

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