Building Resilience: A Thought Leader's Guide to Thriving After Tragedy | Nina Sossamon-Pogue | 626

If you practice thought leadership, you take a risk of public failure. What if people don't receive your ideas well? What if no one leans in? Today, I want to speak with someone who personally experienced public failure and tragedy. And we'll discuss how she built thought leadership based on her reflection and her analysis of her experience. My guest today is Nina Sosamun-Pogue. Today, she's an author, speaker, and resilience advocate, but in her past, she's been a gymnast vying for a spot on the US national team and a highly recognized television news anchor. A warning. Today's episode tells the story of severe accidents and injuries to young people. It's essential to this episode, but some listeners may find the story unsettling. We have a candid conversation, Nina and I, around finding meaning in tragedy, as well as how failure interacts with thought leadership. I'm Bill Sherman, and you're listening to Leveraging Thought Leadership. Ready? Let's begin. Welcome to the show, Nina.

Well, thank you for having me. I've been looking forward to this conversation.

So today's conversation is going to be around the journey of thought leadership and also a conversation around resilience. And let's level set by talking about how you got into the practice of thought leadership? I think it began with speaking and then evolved in your speaking and also then into writing. So how did you get into speaking?

Yeah, it all— several things converged at once. So I was a journalist, so I've written and researched things for many, many years. But then I wrote my first book in 2019. And so being a journalist and anchor, I was always out there speaking. Writing my first book made me organize my thoughts in a new way. And I was on this own journey of self-discovery on what did I really have to offer to the world? And, you know, if I could do anything I wanted to at this point in my life, um, my kids were off in college. I had had my own big successes and I thought, what do I really wanna give back? And that's when I dug into this and said, I truly want to learn more about why some people get stuck in life and can't seem to move forward. And others not only survive trauma and difficult challenges in their life, but thrive through them and have even bigger success on the other side. So since that had been my story, the bigger success on the other side, and people would come to me asking for suggestions on how'd you do that? Give me some tips, how you keep reinventing yourself and finding new levels of success. I chose to really dig in and come up with real answers. More so than just, hey, this is the book I read and the way I think and the science and the stoicism and the stuff, all my own little mashup here.

So in terms of speaking, you work internally to begin with on like user conferences and an IPO roadshow. What was the difference between being the internal voice versus then going on stage for yourself? And being the speaker brought in?

Yeah, very different. Very different. So when I thought about going into this, I'll be very honest with you here. When I thought about going into it, I thought I did 3 shows a day for 20 years on TV, and I'm a vice president in a tech company, and we just took the company public. And I, I helped craft the roadshow deck, and I, I've helped craft all of our keynotes for all of our user conferences, for HR tech conferences. I've spoken at these things on the Affordable Care Act. Like, I know I'm a good speaker and I know the stuff and I can just do this thing. And when—

Wipe me up, put me on stage and I'm—

Exactly. Just wipe me up, put me on stage. I totally got this. I'm not gonna be nervous. I'm in front of a bunch of people. And it wasn't that piece of it at all. It's really exactly what you do here is what is thought leadership? What is gonna be my thing? It's gotta be my thing. It's not somebody else's. So the IPO Roadshow decks, are always the story of the value that something brings or something new coming into the world and the people who made it happen and the great green pasture out ahead that we're going to go take. That's always the story that they are. It's not my story. And then when I talked about the Affordable Care Act, that was 907 pages of somebody else's thinking that I would condense into some good thoughts and very enthusiastically and with some analogies and fun stuff share that. It was hard to come up with what is my thing I'm sharing. And it took years. Even when I started speaking, I got to the word resilience through my first book and through some research, I figured out, oh, this is the word I'm looking at. And this is pre-pandemic before it became kind of the go-to word for everything. But I got to that word and it hit with me. And the definition of the word that I lean into is a person's ability to learn and grow stronger and adapt in a positive way. To whatever happens in their life. So that adapt in a positive way is what I really lean into. What does that mean to adapt? It's not persistence or grit. That's not adapting. It is very— it's something very different when you make a change and adapt. And what does it mean to in a positive way? How do we define that? So that's where my research led, and it became really difficult. So writing for someone else, doing the news each night, somebody else's story, doing an IPO roadshow, a company story, a CEO, a founder story, the chief technology officer's story, like how they came together and made the thing. Very different. And anytime I had spoken, I had stepped out there and done fine. I had learned my content and then spoken. But this was backwards because I was ready to speak, but I hadn't learned my content well enough to one, stand out there and do it really effectively, and two, to sell it. Very different. So I, kind of a long answer to your question, but I thought about doing this and came up with some ideas and said, I really, I realized I didn't know what I didn't know about the speaking industry. And having been the vice president of marketing communications at a tech company and run conferences, you know, I had an events team. I reached out to someone who we had hired to speak, who I had really admired on the stage, who I really liked. Uh, his name's Josh Linkner. I'll give him all his flowers. He's an amazing speaker. I'm a good, like, I just love the guy. I, I think he's He does it right. He was really well prepared. He was easy to work with. He stepped on the stage and, and handled himself really beautifully and, and stepped away and sent follow-ups. He was just the kind of speaker I wanted to be. So I reached out to him and said, hey, will you be my mentor? Will you show me what the speaking industry looks like? Because I think I want to do this. And as much as I think I'm ready, pretty sure I don't even know what I'm stepping into.

I want to explore a little bit deeper something that you referred to You asked the question of what would my thing be? What's my body of work? And you described a little bit of hesitancy. Sometimes that's imposter syndrome. Hey, do I belong on the stage? Am I the right person to give this message? And sometimes that's content insecurity. Is this idea good enough? Is it worthy of elevating to this level. Can you talk a little bit about your experience and some of the things that went through your head as you were trying to figure out what is my topic and what is my lane?

Yeah, it was definitely the second for me is, is, is this topic worthy and, and are, do I have some meaningful way in which I can help other people? So I had gotten to a point in my life where I, when I decided I was gonna get outta corporate and do this, thing, thought leadership thing, write some books, put something bigger out into the world. I did that because I had become the go-to person that people had come to when things went horribly wrong in their life or they were really struggling. And having worked in a corporate world, sometimes that looked like just someone scheduling a sync on my calendar. And, you know, and because somebody, you know, there was hundreds of people who reported up through me and up to me, and then there's thousands of people in the company. So sometimes it was somebody putting a sync on my calendar, maybe somebody on one of my teams, often people who didn't even report to me. And I would step into the little glass cube in a corporate office and say, hi, um, what are we meeting on this sync? With no description. And they, it would be, I heard you were really great to help people through tough times and I am having panic attacks. My wife's pregnant and I'm pan— having panic attacks when I come over the bridge. Or one time it was a woman whose husband had passed away and she's like, I don't even wanna go on. And, you know, the first thought in my mind was always, I'm not HR. Should I even be answering this question?

I'm not the EAP plan. How did I get signed up for this, right?

Yes.

I'm Marcom. Talk to me about the roadshow.

Yeah, exactly. That's very different. But I had become this person that people trusted to come to, and the word had gotten out. I had helped others, and I was saying things and helping people. So I knew I was helping in a meaningful way because I was having these conversations and people were doing better. And sometimes it was people in my neighborhood. I had a neighbor knock on my door and standing there with two beers in his hand with tears running down his face. And he's like, I just lost my job. I don't know. I can't go home. I don't know how to tell my wife. I don't know what to do. You know, and, and I said, well, come on in. Come on through. We sat on the end of the dock. We worked through it and then he was fine and he handled it beautifully after that and then went on to do bigger, better things. But I helped him with that conversation and how it was going to go and what he was thinking. So I knew that I was helping in a meaningful way, and I had to sit down to my— and really think through what is this thing that I'm helping with, and is the way that I am thinking and relating to people any different from what other people have done? And you know, when you get— and you get into the weeds of it, and I'm like, this is a little bit of Emerson and Dr. Seuss all rolled up into one. Like, it's all the same thing. There's stoicism, you know, you have Marcus Aurelius who says something, and then years later You know, Emerson says the same thing. And then one day you open a children's book and Dr. Seuss is saying the same thing. It's nothing new. They're just saying it in different ways. And so I decided, you know something, I'm gonna say this in my way because obviously me with my life experience and the type of relatable person I am, I'm doing a good job of getting through to people and I think I can reach a larger audience and really make a difference. And, uh, that was my struggle at first was, was this different enough, my own mashup of, as I say, science and stoicism is my own mashup with that, along with my life experience, which we haven't really dug into, but varied life experience with really high highs and really low lows. That's what set me on this journey. And I knew that I had gotten through these things and I had found the commonalities in what I had done and what others had done to get through tough times. And those commonalities were worth sharing.

So it's interesting that you mention Emerson in a conversation on thought leadership because he is one of the individuals the Oxford English Dictionary attributes as being first called a thought leader in the 19th century.

Really? I didn't know that. Taught me something new now. Wow.

The phrase in the article refers to Although he's older, he still retains the wizard power of a thought leader. And it goes on. It's lovely 19th century prose.

I have to go find it. That's fabulous.

So we've talked around the concept of resilience, but there's another piece to your story, and this goes to the concept of public Failure. And I want to begin exploring with you how you went on the journey of learning to understand what is public failure as a piece of thought leadership, as well as the resilience. So let's start with the US team, and please set the table for the audience.

Okay, well, setting this table takes us back to Nina's childhood. So I was, uh, like so many young girls, I was, I did gymnastics when I was little and I was very good at it. I was built for it. I'm short and strong and, and fearless. Uh, always have been. And so I was built for the sport and I had real success early on. So I move away from home at 13 and move into the Olympic Training Center. I'm, and to try to make the US team and I actually make the US team at 14 and I travel all over the world and Japan, Hungary, Germany, Australia. And these are the '80s back with Mary Lou Retton and that group. Uh, and so I am on the US team and traveling and on the COVID of magazines and like as an Olympic hopeful, like that's the world my, where I was living. And then I don't make the team. So my first big public failure was, uh, you know, having to walk through the halls of my high school after not making the team after Everyone knew, like, that's all anybody talked about leading up to it. You know, it was a lot of, uh, of watch Nina on ABC World of Sports this weekend. And, you know, it was always in the announcements. And here I was, a failure at the ripe old age of 16 for not being—

And that was tied to an injury, wasn't it?

It wasn't. This one wasn't. This was, I just bombed a, a meet. I bombed one of the qualifying, and back then you bomb one, you're out. So I bombed a qualifying meet. I'd grown a little bit and I just wasn't the best that I was And even if I had done my best, I may not have made it. There were a lot of very talented young women on the team that year. So I, so I don't make the team. First big public pain. And back then, well, it was—

everybody is consciously afraid of public failure in high school.

Oh yeah.

This one comes with a cover of a magazine piece.

Right. And then newspaper articles that I didn't make it. And then all of the things and just embarrassment and shame, all of the things that come with that as you're a teenager. So that was at the ripe old age of 16. And I did come back and I competed at LSU in gymnastics after that. And I had some, you know, one of the top gymnastics programs in the nation, big D1 school, full scholarship. And I went to LSU and then I blew out my knee. That's the injury you were referring to. So I did blow out my knee my freshman year in a competition, very publicly failed once again. And it was a career-ending injury. It had been my third knee injury and it was done. So that was a career-ending injury. And, and I'll share this because now I've had the teenage Nina and then the little older teenager, I think was 19, and I blew out my knee and I lost my identity. So my whole life had been tied up with gymnastics. It was who I was, how I identified. Speaking of the public part of it and where it really plays forward into this thought leadership is I was doing this very publicly at a young age and dealing with that. Back then, front of the, the Reveille newspaper had a picture of me in my fall and said, another one bites the dust. So I was dealing with that public embarrassment and shame, you know, a couple of times early on. Nowadays, all these kids, there is no such thing as private pain. Everything we do is on social media. So this concept of public pain is out there because it's— they all identify now. Then it was my bumper sticker and my sweatshirt. That's how, you know, I was a gymnast. But now it's their Instagram and their, you know, their Facebook and their TikTok and all of their things. They don't have Facebook anymore, but their TikTok and all of their things.

That's a grandma grandpa thing.

Yeah. I just threw it out there for your, your listeners so they could identify too. But you know, it's, it's their Snapchat and they're, they identify as this. And so you lose that identity at a very young age and have to reinvent who you are without that sport. And I really spiraled at the time. It was one of the lowest lows in my life. On crutches and working in the laundry room. I used to joke, I was at LSU and I used to joke that my claim to fame almost became washing Shaquille O'Neal's jockstrap because they had me working in the laundry room. So I'm glad I didn't stay there. So the lesson in that is it's okay to not be okay. What I always say, it's just not okay to stay that way. So I had to find a way forward. So this message of resilience you see starting here.

And let's continue forward. And the next low, that was a very tragic and public at the same time. So I want to ask you to share the story. And before I do, I want to let our listeners know that I warned that this was a story that would have sensitivity. Feel free to move along. And we'll include a timestamp of where to pick up.

Okay, so that sounds good.

Go ahead, Nina.

Well, I will share before we jump to that, because I— that was like gymnastics was my, you know, teens. And in my 20s, I found television and regrouped and had some big success. I was Charleston's favorite news anchor for many years. I won an Emmy for best newscaster in the Southeast. I've had big successes, but also in my 30s, I had some big, again, very public failures. Went through a divorce. Everybody— I was on TV. Everybody knew it. So my marriage fell apart and then I got let go from a TV station. They went younger and blonder in a big corporate-wide layoff, very public and very embarrassing. And then I, I, so I had my, my thirties had its own times. And then at 37, uh, I was on television still, very popular news anchor, um, doing really well for myself. I'd won an Emmy for best newscaster in the Southeast. It was like all over the advertised and stuff as part of the TV station. I was really close with my, you know, my co-anchors and my team. And I took the day off one day to go be a normal mom and pick my kids up from school. So I'll preface this with, yes, this could be a triggering story and I don't always share it, but we spoke beforehand and it's something that your audience, you feel would benefit from. So I'm always willing to share it. I wrote my first book around this, so it's not anything that I haven't shared before, but it's a story where I almost didn't want to go on after this. So I take a day off of work, uh, to go be the normal mom like all the other moms and to go pick up my kid from the school bus. And I have 3 small children, my, and, and I get there early and my co-anchor and his wife lived in the house that was on the corner where the school bus came. So I went and spent some time with her. She was a good friend. Um, and she had, they had a new baby and we were playing with the baby and hanging out and the school bus comes and lots of other moms and siblings at this, you know, suburban corner lot school bus. Like, if you can picture it on a gorgeous fall day in Charleston, South Carolina, lots of kids, uh, pile off the bus and lots of people and moms around. And so we're all visiting and it comes time to go and I say, you know, come on, get your stuff, grab my, my son, put him in the car, buckle him in, how's your day, here's a snack kind of thing. And then I go to pull out of the driveway, and in that commotion of that, you know, hectic fall afternoon with all these folks coming and going, no one had noticed that my friend's sweet little baby boy had crawled under my car. And I backed up and he was badly injured. Now I will jump forward for everyone. He's alive. He survived. He is in college. He's a really cool kid and has had a really inspirational valuable, amazing life. Um, but at the time, we weren't sure if he was going to make it. There were days and weeks and months where it was touch and go. Um, he had, um, skull injuries, facial fractures, and it was really devastating, obviously, for his family and for him. And on my end, I mean, they have their own piece of the story. It's not all my story to share, but my part of the story was I I didn't want this to be part of my world. I didn't know where to put this in my head. I wanted to be everybody's favorite news anchor and this world-class athlete. I didn't wanna be the woman who had injured her friend's baby. It's just not who I wanted to be in life. And I had gone from reporting the news to this being the headlines in the news and to news trucks on my front lawn and prayer vigils being held throughout the community. And it was very much front and center. And so I just, didn't see any way in the world where, um, I would ever be happy again or be seen as, you know, a positive person in, in the universe and in my community and in that positive light on, you know, in the world. And, uh, I just didn't want to go on. I had these 3 small kids. I thought they'll be better off without their really sad mom. I had just gotten remarried and I was like, he's only been here a year. Like he can go, like he'll be fine without me. My parents have other kids. Like I really had made my decision like, this is, I'm okay with just being done now. Um, and I even, when I had, they wanted me to go back on the air and I remember standing there with my husband's razor in my hand thinking it'd been a few weeks and he was outta the hospital now. Um, so he was outta the hospital. His mom and I had held hands and walked down the hall of that hospital, said, we're gonna get through this together. His dad and I had talked and met and I'm like, okay, I'll go back on the air first and then you come back on the air because there'd been weeks. Where no one had, you know, the morning show people had done the evening news. And so I was, it was my day to go back and I stood there with that razor in my hand and I thought, if I just slice up my face, then I won't be pretty and they won't want me back on the air. Like I was just wanting a way out. And then I took it a step further in my head and said, what if I just was done now? And luckily for me, I had some good people around me and a wonderful therapist at the time. Uh, and I, took it. I, I, his little, his voice was in my head and I put down the razor and picked up the phone and called him. And he said, Nina, we have a plan. You are gonna, it's not always gonna feel like this. The world's gonna move on. Everyone's gonna move on. You have a whole life ahead of you. Just keep day by day, just stick to the plan that we have in place. And, uh, the script that we'd created and the ways in which we were trying to get through the, through the world. And I did, and I listened and I listened to him and I put that down and I went and did the news. And went back on the air for a year with my co-anchor, and the world moved on to a new story. And this beautiful young baby healed, and our community saw it as, this is how you lead with love and get through an amazing thing, and the power of prayer and lots of other things, and amazing doctors and miracles. So many positive things were assigned to the story that it became something very different. Um, but that was certainly a turning point for me also when I look back. When I got to this point in my career, my 50s— that was at 37, um, and I— it's so scary now to think, my kids are such amazing humans, I'm such a big part of their lives. What if I hadn't been here? I mean, it's so frightening to think about, um, but when I got to my 50s and started this journey of, of what is the thought leadership I'm going to put into the world, the lessons from that, the way in which as a human, as as a parent and a spouse and as a patient, um, and as a news anchor who's communicated the way in which I managed through that was valuable for other people to get through it because everything is public pain now. These people who have 5 minutes of pain, 5 minutes of fame, you know, whether it's good or bad on online, these, you know, they do one stupid thing in their high school and they are labeled with it for forever now. 'Cause it's, all over TikTok and everywhere. So it's such an important message, I think, that I have on life and life is long and how to manage through the really difficult public things that you go through, that we all go through.

So absolutely, there's an evolution that we are all in front of the camera now in an entirely different way. And I think It is an area of thought leadership built on a personal journey and experience, and I want to thank you for sharing that story as preface for some of the questions I'm going to ask next.

I think it's important to share, and the more I've shared it, the more people have said to me that they've had either these dark thoughts or they've gone through something, sometimes something similar, sometimes something worse. I mean, We all have our struggles, and it's important to know that if you're out there struggling, you are not alone. And there's a way forward no matter what. And unless some of us talk about how we got out of those things and got forward, it's, it's not out there.

And it can be isolating and lonely and terrifying. If you're enjoying this episode of Leveraging Thought Leadership, please make sure to subscribe. If you'd like to help spread the word about our podcast, please leave a 5-star review at ratethispodcast.com/LTL and share it with your friends. We're available on Apple Podcasts and on all major listening apps, as well as thoughtleadershipleverage.com/podcast. So my question for you, you're now in your 50s-ish as you start reflecting on this. Talk about the process of reflecting on your own experiences and then building the framework that you've created to talk about living through public failure as well as resilience. Because you didn't just sit, go out and tell your story again and again. You wanted to understand it and create sort of a tool, right?

Right. And, and that was the difficult part. Now, when I started this journey, when I worked in tech for those 12 years, people didn't even know this story of what had happened with me. They just knew I was tough as nails. You could throw anything at Nina and she can handle it. No one knew the Nina story. So many people had moved to Charleston to be part of this company. And we had offices in Hyderabad and Manila and lots of remote folks and teams in other parts of the country who did the AI stuff and data analytics. So it wasn't all here. So no one even knew this about me. I was really in a different mindset 10, 12 years after this had happened. I was 15, 15 years after this had happened. I was in a very different mindset when I went on this journey and I wanted to write a book that was just positive motivation. You know, let me show you how to get yourself, like reset your mindset and get moving forward. And I got into my cohort with the group that I started working with on the book. And she looked at me and I remember we were on a Zoom call and she said, and there was about 10 of us on the call. And she goes, and Nina, and she goes, yeah, the book you wanna write is not the book you're going to write. Let me, I'm gonna tell you what the book you're going to write is. And she said, you're gonna go back and look at these big failures in your life and figure out how you got through them and share that. And I was like, uh, no, I do not want to relive any of this. Uh, you're wrong. And I got off the call and I told my husband, and I like sat on the end of my dock and was really grumpy for about 24 hours and went, I just want to be happy and talk about happy things. Uh, so I, I really was a struggle. But then I sat down and thought, what is it? And I remember in the next 48 hours after that first very difficult challenge, put it forth by her, writing down my lows and then trying to find the commonalities and going, holy crap, I actually did these similar things all the time. And then I started picking up, and within that, that started this. Then, wait a minute, how did other people get through it? How do other athletes who fail and come back? How do other famous people who've almost gone under come back? And companies like Lego and, right, like different companies, like, like almost got to the brink of failure and then come back. What are the commonalities there? And then once that fascination was turned on in my head, I was like, now I have to know. Now I, now I have to know. Now I have to find the answer and I have to share it.

So let's stay on the framework for a moment. What commonalities did you identify? And then how did you test that framework with others?

So when I wrote my book, it wasn't commonalities. It was the, it started with the 7 steps. Do these 7 things. And it was some, a lot of cognitive behavior therapy and stoicism and books I'd read and things that I had mashed up. So it had 7 chapters of do this, cuz the book was really what I was looking for when I was in that space and wanted to end my life. It was, I, I just wanted a book to say, do this. Uh, and there were big workbooks on PTSD and other things and other people's stories. And I was like, I am in my own worst nightmare. I do not have time for somebody else's bad story. Just tell me what to do, you know? So that's what the book I wrote was, and it got to 7. And I had 7 areas that I knew, um, were things that were so important when you were in this space that I knew if I hand them to somebody, it would help them get through it. But then I looked at commonalities just for people who are going through what I call a, a big challenge or change. Um, whatever this is in your life, um, that's why it's called This Is Not the End. Your this is different from mine. I'm not gonna pretend I know what you're dealing with, but whatever this is, this big thing, this big gnarly thing that's in your head that you wake up thinking about. You go to bed thinking about it and you can't figure out how to get past it and you just wanna be on the other side of it. Whatever this is, let me help you get through it. And I started doing that homework and looking at commonalities and I got it down to 4. And getting it to 4 took about 2 years, 2 years of thinking it differently, reading new things. I sometimes joke I'm the victim of the last book I read. I get so excited when I learn new material. You're like, oh my gosh, this is so great. But I was reading so many books in a week. I was like, okay, now I'm all over the place. But it was, it was really interesting to get it down to these 4 and then to go and I started my own podcast and I started testing it there. And I would talk to people. I'm like, did you do this? Did you do this? And I found that the people who had become paralyzed or lost a child, these all also very difficult stories, worse, worse things than, than I can imagine. They had all done these, these 4 commonalities. They all played out in their lives. And then I started looking at corporations and individuals who have overcome, you know, great challenges and seeing in their stories where these things have also had these commonalities. And that's where it came together, and I could see these 4. I wanted to get it down to a smaller number. I mean, just selfishly, I didn't want to say, here's a framework of 8 things. It just seemed too much. So getting it down to 4 and finding the words for these 4, because some of them kind of doubled in together as they, as I, the more I dug into them, like, ah, it's a little bit of this and a little bit of that, but if I call it this, they both fit there. So it took about 2 years to get it down to not just a manageable, because that's part of what I wanted was a manageable framework, but I, I also wanted something that truly was simple. Simple is hard. You know, I always say it's hard to write a short book. It's hard to come up with a simple framework. I wanted it to be elegant and simple and repeatable. I looked at books on change management and, um, because, you know, corporate change management and how all the different ways in which people handle change to see the commonalities there too. And I really wanted to be, to look at it because I worked in software as a, for a while, almost like an app. I wanted to be able to write the requirements for it and say, this is how you do this. Thing. Like, if you run it through this process, it will make sense in a new and different way for you, for your this, which is not the same as anybody else's. So I started looking at it, looking at it as if I was developing a new product and software and, and going through the, the poking holes in it and A/B testing it and coming up with different ways that people could, you know, confirm or deny my thinking.

Beautiful. Thank you. So my next question, you've shared your story, but I wanted you to look inward for a moment. What is it that today still fuels you to practice thought leadership?

I am still learning. I'm still learning. Just this week, I put some new things out into the universe that I've been noodling and thinking on for about 4 months now, and I thought, I don't have a word for burnout that I like. I don't like the word burnout. I don't think that fits everybody. People ask me to speak on burnout and I'll put together the, you know, the symptoms and the, the outcomes and, and solutions. And I've done keynotes on it, but it didn't feel right. And so just this week I put, I finally put it out into the world. Excellence exhaustion. 'Cause it's not burnout. I don't have the, you know, it's not the malaise and the repeated stuff. It's, it's always raising the bar. The world we live in. Is constant connectivity. And if you're in technology, it's constantly advancing. You're never going to be finished with it. And you never get to be off the hook. It's 24-hour, 24/7. We're connected globally. Like, it was, it was coding around the globe, you know, chasing the sun, you know, and passing. Like, nothing stops anymore. When it— this is a very different type of, not burnout, it's a very different type of exhaustion. Because for those of us who are high achievers and people like you and like me who are doing a lot with our lives and trying to make a difference and be purposeful, we are constantly raising the bar. We set targets, we hit them, we go higher. You work in corporate, you had your KPIs or your target metrics you have to hit, you hit them, and then as soon as you're done, you get the new ones. If you're in sales and you carry a bag, you know, you, you get your number, you hit your number, and then it get a new one. So it's this constant connectivity and what gets measured gets done that we didn't have 10, 15 years ago. It just wasn't here. And you know, AI is Even, you know, adding insult to injury on this a little bit because here's one, here's a, here's a great one that you asked why I, I'm always fascinated because things like this go through my brain, uh, when I just walk through the world. Uh, have you been on vacation? Uh, you or one of your listeners, have you been on vacation, Bill, in the last few years? Like on a plane? Yeah. Go on vacation somewhere. And so you, you leave this beautiful vacation that you look forward to. You're excited. You saved money for it. You put away time for it. You, you know, packed, you got excited, you went and did this thing, and then you get on the plane on your way home and you're still kind of in the glow of vacation mode, a little worried about what you're getting back to, but in the glow of vacation mode. And then you pick up your phone and it says, after you do your checkout, did you enjoy your time here? Yes. Here's a survey, this, this, this, this. And then as soon as you hit submit, it populates through AI, it populates and says, well, here are 5 other vacations that people like you are taking. Don't, you know, book now or you're going to miss out. Like, I haven't actually had to sit and appreciate the vacation I just did yet. You're already telling me I'm missing out on the next one. So it is this, it just, we never get a break. It is this new kind of exhaustion from wanting to achieve, wanting to be more and do more and learn more and not wanting the status quo. We are on this constant journey of learning, which is good. And we want these people, we need our best and brightest. The reason I keep doing this is 'cause I truly feel like there are people that are a whole lot smarter than me doing things that can really change the world. And they're in this same exhaustion. And if I can help them get through the exhaustion, then maybe that's the part I need to play. Because the people who are the best and the brightest, the ones who are really starting to burn out through this constant excellence exhaustion, this constant framework.

And this, if we stay there for a moment, I think excellence exhaustion and the fear of public failure also tie into the tightrope of practicing thought leadership, right? So if you're on stage delivering a keynote or you're putting out a book or you're, you know, leading a seminar it is a very public and vulnerable space. And I think one of the things that happens, not just to people who practice thought leadership, but since it's a thought leadership podcast, is the fear of failure or the exhaustion of always, you know, doing the Spinal Tap turn it to 11 catches up with you. And you say, Maybe 7 is okay right now. Maybe I don't need 11.

Yeah. I think there's a point when you are working in this thought leadership space where you have to be authentically you. You have to put the pieces together in your own way and argue and be okay with being wrong. Like, I'll get into discussions with folks who disagree with me. I mean, there are speakers who talk about bucket lists, and I just disagree. I don't think life is about a bucket list. I think there's bigger and more meaningful things to do with your life than have a bucket list. But, uh, and I, I, it's just my opinion, but it's an educated opinion. And I, I believe the, the way in which our brains are wired and we have evolved as humans and the behavior, you know, behavior, behavioral science. I think there's more to happiness than a bucket list. I just will have that argument, but you have to be comfortable and, and authentically being you. And comfortable with being wrong. Maybe I'm wrong. I might be wrong, but if I don't have the conversation, I won't really know. So there is a point where I have to be able to put myself out there and have that conversation. I think the hardest part for me right now in this space, and I'm being super honest with you, the speaker space has changed. There's a lot of, you have to do, you know, shock and awe and wow everybody and do You know, something, a lot of like call and response.

I would say, do flat backflips. You know, that you're one who actually probably could, right?

I don't know, it might hurt at this age. In my head I can. I'm not sure my body would follow suit. But yeah, so there's a lot of showmanship to speaking right now, which is fine. And I always did 3 shows a day for 20 years. I can stand up there and put on a show, but I don't want to. I don't want to have a shtick. I don't want to have something I walk out with on the stage and something that I'm like having to play music or do something while I'm speaking. I want to really connect and pose some tough questions and get people thinking and get them really excited. And I feel like I can do that. But a charge for me and a part of me or thought to be a thought leader is to go, I actually want to do it my way. I did work with a group last year who wanted to do a rebrand on me, change my name, change my, you know, a lot of the way I dress and a lot of stuff about me. And I thought, okay, where does this end? Do I have to like get a face tat and dye my hair purple to make a difference? Just not going to do it. I'm just not. I truly think my life experience as an elite athlete, as an Emmy Award-winning news anchor, as a person in tech who was part of an IPO roadshow and was part of that tech leadership I think those, along with more importantly my big failures that I've overcome, because that's who really makes you who you are, I think that should be part of my volume of work and that should speak for itself. And that, uh, I don't— shouldn't have to have a shtick. So I don't know that the thought leadership, I'm hoping elevates, uh, my message to where I don't need that to get booked and really share and make a difference. Because I know when I do speak, when when I do write and I put stuff out there, I know it makes a difference 'cause I get the response. I know people are like, wait, I hadn't thought about that. That's super helpful. And, and that's all I'm trying to do.

So as we wrap up, Nina, I wanna ask you a question. You have a magic wand, it's 3, 5 years into the future. What will you experience as success personally? And what will change for the people that you're touching through your message? Anything is the limit because you've got that magic wand.

Yeah, my measure of success and how I'd like to make a difference, um, continues to evolve, continues to evolve. Uh, my first thought in my head always goes to my kids. Long— you're only as happy as your saddest child. So my— all three of my kids are thriving and doing amazing things. Um, then my success meter year is high. But it— for my message, uh, to have it be kind of like, you know, Simon Sinek's Start With Why. I want to get this framework that I put out there, my Resilience Route Navigator, this GPS to reset where you're headed. I want it to be something that maybe not as broad as is in 3 to 5 years or wherever you put that timestamp out there, but I'd like it to be something that people can refer to. And I would love it in, in my heart of hearts, I would love it to be in college space. I think that putting this in front of these college students who are so driven and so exhausted and, and frustrated and, and scared about the future, the, the suicide rate's really high in the 15 to 25 space. I'd like it to be in that space. I'd like to be a framework that people can use this. I call it my Resilience Route Navigator. I hope that name sticks. It may have to be shorter. It's a GPS. It's like a GPS you can download into your brain. So when you get to where you're going, want to go, you get stuck, you know, it can go, oh, you're here, you're trying to go there, use this to reroute you in that direction. Just like it, like a GPS would. You're here, you're trying to go there, let's use this, it'll reroute you to get you moving forward again. Because you hit a roadblock.

Whatever your this is.

Yeah. Yeah. So that would be a goal. Or if I wave the magic wand, this would be something that was widely accepted. And that others had poked holes on and made better. I'm not saying it's perfect. So if others can poke holes in it and make it better, I'm loving that. But it's widely out there and it becomes something that people who are struggling and having their toughest times can have to like a go-to. It's second nature and it just moves them forward. Uh, because I don't, the thought of the rate of suicide and the rate of people just giving up on life, even if they don't go in that direction, just giving up on their dreams. Is so bad right now. The mental health in America is so bad right now. I feel like this can really move the needle and make it better. I just need to get it out into the world in a meaningful way. Uh, so that is what success looks like. And it's not necessarily me standing on bigger stages and doing fancier things. I've had my own success both on TV as, you know, big fish, little pond famous. And financially after the IPO, I had plenty of money. So it's not on that. I truly want to put this into the world and see it make a difference and know that the work that I've done and that others have added to and poke poke has made a true difference in the world.

I've talked to many people who practice thought leadership, and one of the patterns that I've heard is almost when it comes to talking about the ideas, they are, they talk about the ideas that they've brought into the world as very much raising a child. And you want that kid to go out and do amazing things, whether or not— hopefully they write a letter back and forth or stay in touch. But at the end of the day, go forth, do amazing things, build your own legacy. And your piece of— I hope that when people need these ideas, they will be in the ecosystem for them, whether they're in college or whatever phase of life they're in. Being part of the general lexicon. I was thinking as you were talking about it as the stages of grief, and that's something which I think in some ways parallels your work in terms of relevance and that others share with people going through the journey. And so aspirationally, that's a great use of the magic wand, and I wish you luck on the journey. Thank you for joining us today, Nina.

Thank you so much for having me. This has been a wonderful discussion, Bill. I appreciate being on here with you.

Okay. You've made it to the end of the episode, and that means you're probably someone deeply interested in thought leadership. Want to learn even more? Here are 3 recommendations. First, check out the back catalog of our podcast episodes. There are a lot of great conversations with people at the top of their game in thought leadership, as well as just starting out. Second, subscribe to our newsletter that talks about the business of thought leadership. And finally, feel free to reach out to me. My day job is helping people with big insights take them to scale through the practice of thought leadership. Maybe you're looking for strategy, or maybe you wanna polish up your ideas or even create new products and offerings. I'd love to chat with you. Thanks for listening.