Building The Personal Brand Is the Trojan Horse| Kait LeDonne | 709

And welcome, welcome, welcome. This is Peter Winick. I'm the founder and CEO at Thought Leadership Leverage, and you're joining us on the podcast, which is Leveraging Thought Leadership. Today, my guest is Kate Luedahn, and Kate is a personal branding expert for aspiring thought leaders, which obviously caught my attention. And she's got lots of other sort of cool, interesting things going on that we'll, we'll get into as well. So welcome aboard, Kate. How are you?

I'm good, Peter. Thanks for having me.

So what does an, uh, a personal brand expert for aspiring thought leaders do? What is, what is that? That's one of those jobs that we didn't look at when we were in college to say I want to, you know, on career day, right?

Yeah. If somebody ever told me I'd be making my money doing this, I just would have had a blank stare on my face. Um, yeah, well, you know, it really depends on the day of the week, but I'll say it like this: 90% of what I do is helping people figure out their messaging, because if you do not have that down and it is not radically clear, everything else you build on top of that is just a house of cards.

So stay there a minute because it, it just seems so, so obvious. Mm-hmm. Right. But in practice it's not right. When you look at some of these thought leaders are out there, aspiring thought leaders are out there, you know, I look at it on a continuum, you know, on, on one side of the, the continuum is like, here's 87 things I'm really good at. And I'm like, okay, I'm really confused. I don't know. And then the other, it's, it's, they can't get it down crisp and tight. So that it, it resonates with who they serve, what they do, what the outcomes are, and what the benefits and why them are like, that's so where, where do you start in your process working with folks?

Well, it's, it's okay. Now we're gonna double zoom into what the latter part of what you just said, who they are, what they do, who they help. There's so many components of a good message.

Yeah.

And it's funny because when you look at a good message, you're like, that is so simple and concise and clear. And within that, there are probably 10 different variables that are a trapdoor to go wrong. Number one, sure. You just haven't gotten the target audience of the message clarified well enough. Maybe you're too broad. Maybe you are picking the wrong people to— that don't have the right pain that you are really helping. And so usually I start with, okay, well, who do you wanna serve? And if somebody says, I mean, theoretically everybody, I'm like, oh, okay.

So Oh, that's nice. That's my favorite worst answer.

Yes. Yeah, it's really, um, it's really great. Uh, and, and so that is the first trapdoor. The second trapdoor is understanding the real pain you're trying to solve. Because I heard a quote once, and I really need to remember who I'm attributing this to, but it was such a great quote, and it is pain pushes until vision pulls. I think a lot of us aspiring thought leaders are thinking, all right, well, I'm just gonna have this beautiful message and it's gonna call people forth into action, and I don't want to be a fearmonger. But the reality is that people are more apt to act if they're being no— negatively motivated. And marketing tests prove this again and again and again. People are going to respond. Yeah.

Yes. Stay there. So there's fearmongering is extreme, right? Hey, if you don't hire me by tomorrow, you know, the world will end. You'll be bankrupt, homeless, and living in the streets. Like, that's fearmongering.

Yes.

I think that's one way to do it, not a way I would recommend. But I think the reality is when we think about it, your first job as a marketer is to get people out of the trance because, you know, I think we create, create these sort of visions and these platforms and such. In a quiet time, in a thoughtful time, and wherever I'm like, okay, well, when are we gonna break through to somebody? Well, the reality is they're standing at Starbucks, it's really loud and noisy, and they're skimming through TikTok and, and you need something that's gonna grab their attention to at least get them to pause for 2 seconds and go, huh?

Right?

Like, that's just the world we're living in is it's noisy, it's crowded, it's fast, it's this and that. Like, how do you shake people out of a trance? And there's only a few things that really do that effectively.

Yes. Yes. And I would say that pain is one of the better ones. Now that doesn't mean you lead with pain, but it does mean if you fundamentally don't understand the pain you're solving, any message you put on top of that just isn't gonna click for somebody. Not in the way that, to your point, is really gonna shake them up and get them into action. So if you think about, you know, really sticky messages, we'll go back to Uh, let's take the one that's in the zeitgeist now, like Mel Robbins, let them. Yeah, sure. Theoretically, it's very— Peter's eyes just went so wide. Um, theoretically, it's very motivational, you know, let them, acceptance, stoicism. But underneath of that is the pain of you are feeling more and more out of control in a world that you desperately want to control, right? And that's why we hear it.

But what, but what Let Them signals, yes. Is, wow, that's a great way that I could choose to release this, whatever it is. My sister-in-law drives me nuts. The, you know, pain, my, my coworker spits sunflower, whatever it is.

Like, yes. Yeah.

It's sort of universal. So the way I sometimes like to think about it is one way to connect to a pain point Or, or by, by properly connecting to a pain point, it shows empathy. It says, I see you. Like, yes. Hey, you're an author. I work with a lot of authors. One of the pain points that authors have is they get really depressed 45 days after a book comes out because all this, like, whatever. And they, they'll look at 'em and say, oh my God, no one's articulated it in those words. But that's exactly where I'm at. Right?

Yes. Like, yes.

So pain, I think, when it's smart, is a symbol, a signal of, I get it, been there, done that, I see you, I get you, let's talk, right?

That's correct. That's correct. So figuring out who you're helping, the pain that they're dealing with, but then, you know, and I'm sure you see this all the time, Peter Winick, within the pain, there's then a few other trapdoors. Are you saying one thing in a way that they would never say it? So for example, I was working with someone and she was saying, well, my target audience, they get really stuck on decision-making and I need to talk about decisions. I'm like, is that what they're saying at 3:00 AM to themselves? Are they saying, wow, I'm having a hard time making decisions? Is that really how they're identifying and relating to the pain? I would venture to say no. That's never something I say to myself at 3:00 AM. Like, wow, I can't make a decision. I would say I'm plateaued. I'm not getting recognized at work. I am freezing on the spot in meetings. I am embarrassing. It's only a matter of time before people find out I'm not qualified to do this. That's what they're saying to themselves.

Yeah. Love it. So let's go to a little bit meta here. So you, your expertise is this lane of expertise, right? And then you're helping people do their thing. Talk about your path as a thought leader.

Um, like many great entrepreneurs, it was ass backwards and building the plane on the way down in so much that I was working in corporate in a marketing department and we were swallowing up companies left, right, and center. Yeah. I mean, we were really on an M&A path and when you are on that, you get a really quick training on how to fold brand stories into one another because you have to get a whole new portfolio of clients to understand what the brand is. So I did that, but I wasn't passionate about the service. No offense to anybody that's in finance. And so I started taking that methodology and helping smaller businesses in and around Baltimore where I started my business. Well, when I was doing that and working on the corporate brand side of things, we found that the fastest way to get people to buy into a brand was putting their founders front and center. And one of my favorite examples of this was a quick-growing bagel chain that had a very loyal following. They were in a college town. It was like the hangover spot. Everybody went there after to get the bagel. And it, it was good, but they had these three young— ready for this— Italian brothers, not Jewish, Italian brothers. Like, that was the first bagels. Yes, selling bagels. Um, and they were really, really recognizable. And so we put their story as three cousins who came over from Italy and took the art of Italian bread and really immersed themselves in the world of bagels in America. And started this whole thing of like the Italian Brothers Bagel Empire, and people really bought into that. They were like, wow, I mean, we're on board. And so within every other company I was really developing, naturally the founder would take front and center. And it all came to a head when one of my clients, who was an engineer in venture capital— she was in her 50s— got a license for a marijuana dispensary, and we thought that was the most hilarious thing ever, just like a suburban mom peddling pot, right? But it was a burgeoning industry, and she thought, I could— I can really, you know, become the voice of this industry and talk about where it's going from a medically ethical standpoint. And so we wrote a book, they got on the Today Show, the book went well, the website crashed because of all the traffic, and then they started headlining industries. Whereas 2 years ago, they would have been like, you shouldn't be at these industries, you haven't grown pot, you haven't understood all of it. But when you get that, that pathway from a thought leadership perspective and you really find your lane and own it, and for them it was, hey, if mom says it's okay, it's good. And we're approaching this from the medical side of things. If you, you know, are dealing with having seizures, you should come look at this. Then it felt safe and it was a lane they could own and own confidently.

Well, and that's interesting because the connection to a mom in their 50s versus a college kid getting weed from a dealer in a dark alley.

That's right.

Maybe a little autobiographical for me back, back in the day. Okay. There is a reason that someone's parents might say, well, I don't trust the product that kid's giving you. I don't trust the intention. I don't trust the integrity of it. It's, you know, like that's different, right? I wanna flip that a little bit because in a lot of the work that I do with thought leaders and, and, and authors and keynoters and all that, I'm sort of breaking what you've built from the standpoint of saying, okay, this entire thing is about you. Your name's on the COVID of the book. Your website is your domain name, whatever. And ultimately for a thought leader, that's good until it's not. Meaning, hey, they've built a great practice. But ultimately, if you think about sort of a maturity cycle of a thought leader's business, right? It's moving it from a practice to institutionalizing it and making the IP the star. Yeah. So it's like, it almost goes from, it's the Kate Show to Powered by Kate. And the dream should really be, who the hell's Kate? Like, we don't really care. That's— no.

And you know what?

It's damaging to the ego because like, I'm so important. Right?

But it— yes. And if somebody understands that 3-phase from the beginning, they're all the better suited. Your personal brand is a Trojan horse for a successful exit of IP. Yeah. So, you know, you get in there, everybody loves to follow a person, but then ultimately, let's take the case of Five Dysfunctions of a Team and Pat Lencioni, cuz you and I have talked about that offline. I venture to say a lot of people who read that and know the Five Dysfunctions and the pyramid model that came from it. If I said, well, I really love following Pat Lencioni on LinkedIn, they'd be like, great, who the hell is that? But they know the 5, the 5 lovers of the pyramid.

But that's a compliment.

It's the ultimate compliment because you have come up with an— you were the face, you were the thought leader, then the thought became bigger than you, then the thought became franchisable and instillable, and you quietly exited. Great. You know what that means? Now you have capacity to bring another one up. I mean, yeah, well, now that I think are familiar with Let Them know that it was the 3-second rule or the 5-second rule before that.

Yep, yep.

And that's good. I mean, exit the 3-second rule. That's well enough known separate from her that people can instill that even if she didn't come up with these things. And then she has room to now make her face and her voice and her podcast the, the conduit of Let Them, and then back out of that one. And you're right, that's the deal.

Well, but go backwards. So, so go backward on Mel. So that's on the consumer space, which is a bit different. She knows who her market is.

Yes.

Right. And she's really smart and really talented. And I'm sure there are 10 other things that she could have come up with that are as good, as insightful as Let Them. But then she had to put it through a filter, which a lot of thought leaders don't say, but what does my market really want? Right? Who is my market? It's mostly female of a certain age, of a certain education, of a certain demographic, financial, you know, ethnographic, whatever. Oh, this is, it's definitely first world problem. But if I position this in such a way, right? So is it a chicken and an egg, right? Like, was that designed to meet the audience? Then you say, oh, is it a pain point they have? And then why would the hell would they listen to me? Because if I were to flip those two and say, let them, which is, you know, runaway bestseller, 7 million copies sold, whatever. And the author was Pat Lencioni.

Yeah.

Like, I, like, you'd be like, what? Like some, some old white dude that's, that's a business author wrote this? Why would I believe that?

Now, so true.

Right? But so I think it's where it comes from.

Yes.

Matters as well as a thought leader. And I think that's what happens with certain thought leaders. It's like, wait a minute, the world has, or a subset of the world that matters to you, really, really deep trust in you for a thing.

Yeah.

Right. And that thing is really, really narrow. Right. And when you go outside of that thing, you can go maybe one concentric circle a little bit out. But if all of a sudden, again, not to beat up on Pat Lencioni because that's not the intent, he came out with a line of, I don't know, whatever, 1,000 thread count bedsheets. Huh? Like Egyptian cotton and Pat, where did that come from?

Right.

And you think about, like, Martha Stewart did that because that made sense, right? Like, she's someone that you allowed her work to be in your home and in your kitchen and your bedroom and whatever. So where do you have permission to play? Is it in the relationship space on the consumer side? Is it in leadership? Is it management? Going back to Pat on Five Dysfunctions, in 20 years, I believe that will still be taught. In 30 years in the marketplace.

Why?

Because it doesn't matter if he's dead at that point.

That's right.

Old or not, didn't grow up in social, you know, there's 100 things that don't matter, but it's like, is it still relevant? Is it still evergreen? Do the, you know, we're never gonna cure these dysfunctions. We're always gonna identify them.

Yes.

In our teams and in our organizations.

That's right. Yeah, absolutely. It's also interesting cuz we're talking about this from, in, in the hypothetical example of Pat there, you know, then launching Egyptian cotton sheets.

And by the way, if you do that, Pat, we want a royalty. You heard it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It started here. Um, we're on record. It's interesting though, and I'm sure you see this a lot too, the inverse of that, right? So let's take an example. Andy Dunn, the founder of Bonobos, he, you know, exited Bonobos quite well. Uh, Walmart acquired them, does not own them anymore, but you know, whatever, that happened after his time. And then he is a serial entrepreneur. He's an entrepreneur's entrepreneur. Monica and Andy spin off all these other consumer product brands. And so then you have the lane of thought leadership where they had product companies and were known in that, but then want to own a cause on the other side of things. And so for Andy, that was Burn Rate.

Yeah.

And how I built a business and almost lost my mind and talking about mental illness and entrepreneurship.

Yeah.

And so I think the, we, you and I probably trade in and deal with a lot of thought leaders who the brain is the tool and the idea is the thing. But it's also interesting to me when you have the consumer product good and more of that traditional like B2C company, and then you're like, you know what, I've been growing this company, I've been behind this company for a while, but there's something else that I have to say. And I love seeing the inverse of that too. And I'm delighted more and more of those— I'll say like consumer product good CEOs are stepping out and thinking about that too.

Yeah, I, I think two things on that for thought leaders. Number one, many of them said to me when we really get into it, sort of, I wrote the book I needed. I needed to write and I needed to read.

And that's right.

The fact that I wrote it, mission accomplished. Then it went on to be a success or whatever the case was.

Right. Right.

And I think that's really important. Right. Yeah. Like, like, you know, and then the other is in many instances it's without saying it out loud, it's their own stuff. Right?

Yes.

It's their own journey. It's their own whatever it was. And they realize, get over yourself. You're not that unique. Right? When you think about imposter syndrome, or you can go on and I can name dozens of them for you. Well, I had that. I didn't know it was a thing.

Yes.

I've created a model and frameworks and definitions and then realized, because we didn't talk about it out loud, a lot of people.

That's right. And that's how it was so funny you say that because his book starts with him punching his mother-in-law in the face. I mean, complete manic breakdown.

That's a mother-in-law.

Yeah.

Did she strike first? I don't know. I don't— just saying.

I've had the pleasure of interviewing him, and she seems like a lovely lady. He was in the middle of a manic episode.

I think I just had the pleasure of punching my mother-in-law in the face. Yeah.

It's a hell of a way to start a book, though. And miraculously, he's still married, and everybody has a great relationship there.

Oh, what's a few restraining orders over Thanksgiving dinner?

Yeah, the hatchet is buried. But all that to say, to your point, I'm sure when you're in the middle of a manic episode and you're locked up at Bellevue, which is what happened to him, you're thinking, this is the Scarlet Letter. I can never talk about ever, ever, ever, ever, ever. Like, if people found out about this, they wouldn't invest, they wouldn't buy, blah, blah, blah. And then you move far away enough You move far enough away from it, and to your point, you realize over years, and the more confident and vulnerable you get, like, oh wow, no, a lot of entrepreneurs have mental illness issues, and, and I have this story and I should, I should share it because it's my stuff. I would have loved to have read a book that said, hey, you're not—

I mean, well, and I'm an entrepreneur and I'm competitive, and it's like, oh, you're depressed, huh? I was institutionalized.

Like, yeah, right. I'm always going to be the best at what I do.

Yeah, right. I don't do anything halfway. I didn't just knock it out of bed one day. I was institutionalized. Like, hold my beer.

Yeah, no, he literally said he thought he was like Batman or something. I don't forget the particulars, but it was like full-on mania. And he's such a thoughtful and grounded and mindful person. But you know what, Peter? You're absolutely right. He realized this thing that felt so isolated to me and stigmatizing, it's actually not just my dirty laundry. Like, my version of it is really extreme, but a lot of entrepreneurs feel this way. So you're spot on when you say it's really those two things. When you get a founder who then says, you know what, I'm ready to start to, to beat this, this drum and talk about this.

Yeah. And you realize there's a market for it. Well, this has been A lot of fun. This is, I didn't know, I never know where these things are gonna go, but I certainly—

Punching mother-in-laws in the face. That is, if there's one thing to take away from today, it's if you wanna become a thought leader, start there.

Well, there's the clip. You put it on your site first and then we'll follow up and, and promote it. I appreciate your time. Thanks, Kate. This is great. To learn more about Thought Leadership Leverage, please visit our website at thoughtleadershipleverage.com. To reach me directly, feel free to email me at peter@thoughtleadershipleverage.com. And please subscribe to Leveraging Thought Leadership on iTunes or your favorite podcast app to get your weekly episode automatically.