CEO Branding | Raoul Davis | 472

Welcome, welcome, welcome. This is Peter Winick. I'm the founder and CEO at Thought Leadership Leverage, and you're joining us on the podcast today, which is Leveraging Thought Leadership. And today my guest is Raul Davis. He is the founder and CEO at Ascendant Group Branding, and we're gonna have some fun today because he does a lot of work with PR, corporate branding, CEO branding, etc. So there's a little bit of an overlap in terms of some of the things that we do, but I think more importantly, there's an alignment around a lot of our thinking based on a call we had a couple of weeks ago. So welcome aboard, Raul.

How you doing? I'm great. Glad to be on.

So give me a sense of what— when we go back to the personal branding movement and then building on that, we've got your corporate brand and the importance of all those things there. Touch on that as it connects to and relates to thought leadership today, because I think ultimately that's where it's pointing to?

Yeah, I mean, so I think where this idea of kind of CEO and executive branding stems from is that we saw all these marketplace examples where you had CEOs who, based on how they communicated, it made you kind of like the company a bit more, right? It made you want to kind of really connect with them, right? I mean, what was the original—

or not, or not, or not.

Yes. So What was the initial advertising market for Tesla? It was Elon Musk, right? And that's a very extreme example, but the more kind of practical nature of it is that when you have a CEO who is communicating passionately and you can tell they believe, it makes you pay a little bit more attention to that company because you're saying to yourself, "Well, he's bought in. Maybe there's something there." Right? And so if you can carry that through from an expertise perspective where they're talking the substance of the business, and then that is helping the marketplace understand, well, what's different about this perspective? And then how could that tie back to the company? I think that's where it all stems from.

So let me give you— as you're talking, there were two examples that came to my mind. One was Benioff at Salesforce, probably more so a few years ago than maybe today as much. He's less active as a CEO, whatever. And the other was Schultz from Starbucks, which is more product. Right. So give me maybe compare and contrast or—

Yeah. So I think the difference is that with Salesforce, this is obviously B2B, right? And so you are like an entrepreneur communicating to entrepreneurs many times, or he's talking to high-level business leaders at major companies. And the common ground is there's so many tools you can choose from in terms of like CRMs, right? So in a sea of, you know, hundreds, and many of them are good, what's going to differentiate you? So I kind of think of it like NASCAR. All the cars are high performing, right? All great pit crews. They all have millions or hundreds of thousands of dollars put into them. What's the difference with every car? The driver, right? And so if you're able to feel that connection and see that difference, maybe you say to yourself, okay, that one stands out to me a little bit more, so let me give them a shot, right? So I think that's where it matters from that perspective. And on Starbucks, I think, you know, people like Starbucks, and then to know that the CEO is someone that you feel cares, you see his vision behind him, it makes you that much more connected to the brand versus Southwest, right? Everyone loves Southwest. And then there's this major travel issue over the winter of 2022. All of a sudden, the CEO fails to communicate proactively, ends up being very kind of reactive, and the federal government has to step in. And then they start talking about all the great things they're going to do for consumers. Yeah, after the federal government's forcing you to. So that's a big hit. And that's a CEO brand that could have led and chose not to. And that's going to have some repercussions on her business.

Yeah, and I also think that specific instance was a violation of what we had come to expect from Southwest. Everybody was like, it's airlines, there's weather, things happen. It's whatever, whatever, whatever. But that was just a debacle. Anyway, I want to move this slightly differently. So if we agree that there's incredible importance around the CEO having their brand that supports the brand that they are the shepherd of, and like you said, it's the passion. You could You can understand some of, you know, Howard Schultz's A, love for coffee, and B, some of his passions around healthcare for workers. Like, there's some things sort of embedded in that that you're like, you know, I kind of feel, I feel better about that brand than maybe Dunkin' Donuts or something that's, yeah, got great coffee and maybe it's a little bit cheaper and whatever, but do they stand for anything? I don't know. It doesn't appear to it, you know, on my end. But think about it for the other 99.999% of the world. That's not a CEO, what is it that I should be thinking about as a young professional, as a high potential executive, as an emerging leader, et cetera, you know, as a senior leader? How do I start to, and when do I start to build my thought leadership that allows people to get an understanding of who I am and what I'm about before we have a meeting, before we get on a call?

Yeah. And Peter, I'm sure you have this conversation all the time with your clients is that Thought leadership should be institutionalized within any organization, right? Because it gives you this ability to demonstrate leadership in an organic way. And it's so much more powerful than advertising because it doesn't stop the moment that you stop paying for the ads, right? It lasts forever. People appreciate seeing something that was organically won, that has earned its way in terms of whether it's a TV interview, an article, or look like even your blog, like, if you are showing thought that I can resonate with, it makes me feel more connected to you, right? And that's why it's valuable before a meeting, because if I'm already resonating with something you say, or I already feel like you're an expert, you've demonstrated that expertise, you've already improved your positioning versus the next 10 people I might be meeting with.

Well, and, you know, I love the way you're sort of framing that. I think there's another argument to be made on top of that, which is, cost-effective, right? Think about the cost of paid media. And as costs go up, credibility on the receiver's end goes down. Like, does anybody— Super Bowl commercial, here's a, you know, whatever. Ford will spend $100 million to tell me their pickup truck's great. Do I believe it more or less because I saw a slick commercial? Probably not. Now, if there's somebody at Ford on the electric vehicle side talking about the environment and the, you know, all that sort of stuff that I'm following that's maybe an engineer, I'm probably more tuned into what that person has to say and why they're saying it and what they believe and what they see than a celebrity driving around in a pickup truck telling me how cool I'll look if I buy it.

Yes, absolutely.

So if you and I agree, which appears that we do, that it's important, how and when do you start it as an exec? Because you're, you're starting at the top down mostly in your world, right? Working with CEOs, helping them, et cetera. And I'm just sort of for the sake of conversation.

But I think a young professional can start it, right? It's like, what are you planning to be an expert in? Take some small piece of that, right? And begin to be best in the world for that one small aspect of it, right? So what is a subcategory that you can begin to own, build your expertise around, articulate that expertise to the world, and then have that carry through on your LinkedIn, on your other social platforms, you know, hopefully media, right? But it can always be done at some level. And if you are in your early 20s and you start doing that, you are on a natural pathway by the time you get 4 or 5 years in your career to be so far ahead of all of your peers, right?

And I like that you said—

it's a trajectory thing.

Yeah, I like, you know, he said to get it out in the world and be best in class. And I would say if you're earlier in your career in the world might just mean internal in your organization. Yeah, be the guy inside your company or gal that everybody goes to to better understand X, whatever X might be. And you could broadcast that internally, build up a rapport, build up a relationship, et cetera. Guess what? That's gonna put rocket boosters on, on your career trajectory. If you suddenly have access to SVPs, managing directors, whatever stuff that, uh, uh, you know, early career person typically wouldn't. As an equal, as a peer, as someone they trust and admire. If you're enjoying this episode of Thought Leadership Leverage, please make sure to subscribe. If you'd like to help spread the word about our podcast, please leave a 5-star review at ratethispodcast.com/LTL and share it with your friends. We're available on Apple Podcasts and on all major listening apps. As well as at thoughtleadershipleverage.com/podcast.

And then there's another tie-in with that, right? By mastering it for yourself, it can put you in a position where you can potentially be sponsored or asked for a mentor hire in the organization and then start doing it for them, right? And then that will really help your career as well.

I think one of the things that I find is one of the benefits of doing something like this, right? So we've been doing this podcast for over 5 years, 450 episodes, whatever. So there's lots of benefits, but two that we don't talk about a lot are one is relationships, right? So everybody that's on the podcast, I have a call with before, and I've made some wonderful relationships, both professional, personal resources in different spaces that I didn't know. And then the other is access. Like you and I might not be talking if it weren't for my having this, this little platform here. So I think that's another piece too, that when you're creating thought leadership, when you're developing, be it article, video, podcast, whatever, you have access and you can use that access to strategically and deliberately build relationships that you might not be able to without that.

Yeah. I mean, so, you know, we just worked on a, a book release for Joe Hart CEO Dale Carnegie and one of Dale Carnegie's principles is talk in terms of the other person's interest, right? And so that in many ways is what all relationship building and even thought leadership is about, is like how you're communicating is, is this gonna provide value for the reader, right? And that's why thought leadership is a more effective avenue than any other kind of corporate PR strategy there is, because These media outlets are tired of just getting corporate press releases that say the same thing and they go into virtual trash, or they'll send you to the advertising department and ask you to spend for it, pay for it.

Or go to the other end of that is, and people ask me this all the time and I think it's almost a silly question, "Well, what about influencer marketing?" I'm like, "Okay, well, let's talk about that." By very definition, they're trying to influence you to do something that you probably didn't want to do, wasn't going to do, et cetera, whether that's buy this bottle of perfume or click on this or whatever. I think there's something a little bit more authentic around thought leadership. Like, hey, I just want to share what I know, what I'm passionate, what I'm about so that you can benefit from it. Yeah. If there's stuff that we can do in business, that's all great, but it's not as contrived as some, you know, I'm an Instagram influencer peddling a brandy or something.

Yes. And no offense to influencers, but your point is 100% right.

If there's a lot of black women listening, sorry, like, whatever. They'll get over it. They'll just look at their bank account versus mine.

And go live.

Yes.

And they'll live. Yeah, I'm not starting a telethon for them. But yeah, but I think that's the whole point is that there, yes, some of the objectives of thought leadership can be to open people's minds, to change their thinking, to get them to embrace a different way but it's not in, I have 17 seconds to do it on Insta, right? Like it's—

Well, it's that, I don't know if you ever saw the movie Inception, but the idea is that you can't like tell someone what to think. They have to have the thought be inspired, right? So thought leadership allows that space for inspiration. Yes, I'm reading what someone else is saying, but I'm choosing to read it. It's not shoved down my throat. And then there can be something in there that I can adapt and take as my own and benefit me, right? So that's why people like thought leadership because they're looking for inspiration.

Yeah. So let me ask you this. Oftentimes in many companies, the sort of culture is let's not do anything to rattle anybody. Let's just keep everybody calm, cool, and collective. Let's not stand out. Let's not be controversial, whatever, whatever. And I think that's kind of silly, right? Because to shake people out of the trance that they are in, to get their attention. You don't have to light your hair on fire, right? And be controversial for the sake of being controversial. But I think you need to be authentic and be credible. And when you put your thought leadership out there, say, hey, here's what I'm thinking. And it might be a little bit different than what you're used to, or I'm going to add to the conversation and you may or may not like what I say. It's not a popularity contest. So how do you sort of thread that needle where, yeah, you know, anytime you put something out, guess what? 5, 10, 15, some percentage of the population might go, I don't agree with you, Peter. Actually, I think you're an idiot. Actually, I disagree. But that's not necessarily bad.

Well, I mean, I think one of the most interesting things about it is on social that plays out, right? And it can actually be beneficial to you because most of the people who see your responses will end up agreeing with you and they'll like the fact that you're engaging back with the person, right? And people get too caught up on just the replies. But like if you're on Twitter, a lot of these other platforms, There's thousands of people who have also looked at it and agreed with you, and they decided we're going to now look at your next post. They just didn't give you the feedback. So you get rewarded for being bold. So I think that that's a very important lesson.

Well, and that feedback piece, I think that's an interesting piece that you bring up is that some of the metrics that folks obsess on, on social are actually silly. I don't have the right language for it, but I think it's easy to look at I put up something on LinkedIn and how many views did it get and how many comments and whatever, whatever. But there's this other immeasurable metric, if that's a thing, of how many people are just lurking. They're watching the conversation. They don't get involved. They don't post. They're watching, they're watching, they're watching, they're watching. And then all of a sudden out of somewhere or something stirs in them a reason to reach out to you and say, "Hey, well, you know what? I've been following you for years." And you're like, "Who is this dude?" and they quote back to you things that you've written or can mention, remember that post you did last June and so-and-so jumped all over you and I love the way that you handled yourself. You did that with grace, you did that with dignity and whatever. What do you call that? Because I just see it all the time and I don't know how to describe it better than I just tried to attempt to.

Yeah, I mean, I would just frame it as your silent supporters, right? And I think that we even see this like in our politics that we get too caught up on the loudest sides of the room, right? And then we forget that they represent a minority, a much smaller part of a population. 80% don't get that hyper, right? Like, so it ends up creating this false effect. The loudest are typically the minority opinion. So that is what you always have to be careful of. And from a branding perspective, I've seen it happen in business or politics where you derail your agenda because you're overreacting to a small set of a population. Yeah.

And it's also bad form to try to convince someone that they're wrong via comments on LinkedIn. No one's ever conceded a very strong belief, pro-life, pro-choice, whatever, like, "You know what? You're right. I changed my mind." It just gets louder and gets personal and gets, you know, it gets icky for lack of a better word.

Yeah, I mean, I think that, and I think this role, this plays on two levels. One, to that comment you just made. Number two, to this idea about when you have a culture that's more closed within an organization.

Yeah.

If you kind of will roll with that 80% and then you make a one or two extra points that is kind of your 20%, that is a way you move the needle, right? You have to demonstrate understanding and agreement to some degree and then think about, you know, the 1 or 2 points you want to make that are designed to stretch them a bit. So that's how you typically do that. And I think probably any husband would agree with that point as well.

If anyone is not sleeping on the couch, that is, right? Interesting. So as we start to wrap up, any thoughts or recommendations for someone not yet convinced or on the fence of, yeah, I get, you know, I get this thought leadership thing, but dot, dot, dot.

Yeah, I mean, so it's one of those things where the trend line is very clear, and this trend line has been, what, about 15 to 20 years, you probably say, right? In terms of this incrementally going this direction and at times accelerating towards it. And so ultimately, if there's a tidal wave, you have two choices. Either you just stand there and it hits you, or you take out your surfboard and you ride it. So I think this is one of those things where if you don't get on this wave, others around you will, and you just won't get the benefit out of it. So if you can't be convinced just purely on an intellectual analytical basis, do it as a matter of your own self-interest.

Got it. That makes a lot of sense because by the time the tidal wave's there, if you're not prepared, not a good outcome, right? Right. Maybe I don't get it and don't have all the justifications, but I should probably get in the water. I should probably, you know, do it. So this is cool. I appreciate your time and I appreciate you sharing your thoughts with us today, Roel. Thank you so much.

Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

To learn more about Thought Leadership Leverage, please visit our website at thoughtleadershipleverage.com. To reach me directly, feel free to email me at peter@thoughtleadershipleverage.com. And please subscribe to Leveraging Thought Leadership on iTunes or your favorite podcast app to get your weekly episode automatically.