Creating Your Own Path to Leadership | Tony Martignetti | 569

And welcome, welcome, welcome.

This is Peter Winick. I'm the founder and CEO at Thought Leadership Leverage, and you're joining us on the podcast today, which is Leveraging Thought Leadership. Today my guest is Tony Martinetti. He is a recognized LinkedIn Top Voice in leadership development, organizational development, change management, executive coaching, and speaking. I don't know if you'd call it a tagline, but his core thing is keeping leaders, helping leaders stay grounded in chaotic times. I'd argue times are always chaotic depending on how you look at that. He's a podcast host, he's an author, he's been recognized by Thinkers360, and he's lowered his standards to join me today for about 20 minutes. So thanks, Tony.

Oh, I love joining you. This is great. I appreciate the opportunity to be here with you today.

Thank you. Yeah. So tell me a little bit about the journey of Tony, right? Because there's certain professions where it's, hey, I want to be X, so therefore I'm going to do Y. However, in the sort of thought leadership world, most people then never wake up one day and say, I'd like to be a thought leader, and therefore I'm going to do that. So how the— how'd you get here?

Yeah, sometimes you're thrust into this world and not necessarily, uh, you know, kind of, uh, driving on this path. You know, I came to this from a place of working in industry for about 25 years, working in biotech, particularly working in finance and strategy roles and realizing that I wasn't doing what I was meant for. And so it's a long time to be working in a field and then realizing, gosh, there's something missing. There's something that's not—

But what does that mean, not meant for? Is it getting the job done, doing a decent job, but going home going, kind of not like, what was the point of that?

Well, yeah, there was a missing piece. And let me kind of go even further back to say that when I was growing up, I was an artist. I was known for drawing and painting and doing a lot of work that was more artistic in nature. And then I decided to go pre-med, which, because that made sense, because a lot of people in my life said, you better find a job that's going to serve your family, provide for your family.

My last cardiologist was an impressionist, so that obviously makes sense.

Of course. It's a good combination nowadays because now there's a thought about like how art and medicine, they actually are good bedfellows. So, yeah, you know, that's a tangent for another day. But I decided to go pre-med and then switched from pre-med into business because I realized that that wasn't for me. So I felt like a lost wayfinder all of my life. This feeling of like, okay, like, this is good and I'm good at it. But I realized that there was still something always that was searching for.

So stay there for a minute because I think that, you know, on the one hand one might say, well, that's a weird path. Artist, pre-med, business. Like, okay, those three things usually not on the same menu. Mm-hmm. But I've heard, not the exact story, similar pieces where like, I kind of fit here and I got a little bit of this and I love improv, but I'm also a, an engineer. Like things that like once you sort of look at the totality of the person, and they say, well, I don't fit here and I don't fit here and I don't fit there. So you got to kind of create your own path. And that's where either entrepreneurship, thought leadership, the combination of the two, because, you know, I'd imagine you had a great career on the business side, but it probably, like as you said, wasn't hitting all the notes for you. Yeah.

And this comes back to this place of like, well, if you don't know where you belong, sometimes you have to create the place where you belong. And I think that's where you start to thrust yourself into a place of Well, I may have to forge my own path to belong to myself, to borrow a little bit of a Brené Brown.

Hey, that's scary. It takes a lot to give away the steady paycheck and insurance and all that sort of fun stuff. And then the other piece that I've seen, and I'd love to hear your take on this, is a lot of thought leaders say, okay, great, so here's the path that I'm going to take, right? So I'm going to go this way, whatever. But they do it a little bit too sheltered, myopic, whatever, because there has to be that intersection of what am I really great at? What would jazz me? And oh, by the way, would anybody pay me for this? Right?

Yeah. Yeah.

So how did you, how did you like thread that needle? Because that's really hard. Yeah.

I think first of all, and this comes back to a model I often tell people about, which is about expand your vision, narrow your focus. You know, I had to curate and think about like the things that I, that do light me up. And that is about exploration and curating and thinking about the things that really do make me come alive. You can't go in and focus and say, I'm going to do X for Y and, and do it this way. I had to first get expansive and say, okay, what's possible first, right, before narrowing down and saying, this is who I'm going to serve and how. I had to—

was part of that getting to what is possible for you, testing the marketplace, because that's where I was going before. And I think sometimes what happens is thought leaders might be a little bit introverted, introspective. They, you know, they spend all this time thinking, thinking, thinking, thinking, and then they're afraid to road test it versus sort of the classic entrepreneurial mindset is ready, fire, aim versus ready, aim, aim, aim, aim.

You know, one of my favorite things to tell people about this is curiosity conversations, which, you know, this is something that Brian Grazer talks about in his book, The Curious Mind. But curiosity conversations are these conversations where you just don't come in with this, this is what we're going to do, but it's more about exploring and figuring out, well, what are some things that are on your mind? What are the things that are your problems, your pain points? And so I think that's what led me to the path of figuring out what I wanted to do is just talking to more people. So conversations unlocked a lot of the things that I did. It wasn't through just introspection.

Let's fast forward. So, you know, in the introduction there are a lot of things that you've got, right? I'm an author, I'm a podcaster, I'm a keynote speaker, on and on and on.

Yeah.

Tell me as if I'm a 7-year-old, which some might argue I am, who pays you to do what?

Yeah. So the people who pay me are usually tech leaders, people who are in the innovative space who want me to come in and help them to become more clear and more impactful in the work that they do.

Wait, so stop there for a second because when you give me your background, yeah, we have artist, we had pre-med, we had business, right? But now tech is the place that values what you have to bring to the table and it's not because you're the founder of a tech company or you're a, you're a coder or whatever. So that's inter— like how did you land on tech? 'Cause I wouldn't have guessed that.

Yeah. The reason— the way I landed on that is because these are people who think differently, like me. I think very differently. I have a very expansive view. But what often happens is when you think differently, the first reaction people have is that, oh, this is too out there, this is too different, and people don't necessarily want to hear it. So you have to find ways to connect with that audience. And that might mean, how can I bottle this up, create ways of connecting with other audiences, and make sure that I'm connected with the people who have to execute on the things that I'm doing?

Now, did you have to kiss a bunch of frogs in terms of other industries before you landed on tech?

Oh, absolutely. And I still, I still to this day spend time on, uh, in tangential industries. I've, I've done work with Warner Brothers and, you know, with insurance agencies and things like that, which are fun. And I think that I learn a lot through that. But ultimately tech is what I, I realize this, this is the area that I most enjoy. Okay. And these are the people who get the most value from me.

Got it. So we just heard the word insurance agency and fun in the last sentence. I don't remember the last time that's happened, but I'm truly— so, so you landed on tech and, and what, what's the inter— what are they they paying you for? What's the before and after? What are they hoping to achieve by working with you?

Yeah, first of all, there's a lot of frustration and, um, feeling this, like they're just not being heard and feeling like there's more to be done and that they're not really getting through, their voice heard in the room.

So a lot of them, when you say they aware, so I want to double, so they, yeah, implies a certain level in an order. Who's the they, or typically the day?

Usually they're, they're chief technology officers, um, chief science officers, or chief strategy officers, which I know is not a common thing you hear, but they're definitely in that space of people who are, you know, dealing with technical issues and they're having to voice them to a broader audience. And there's people on their team that they also engage in this, uh, process.

So I love the laser focus there. And then the way that you help them is what, a combination of coaching advice, like what's, what's the ways that support that, that client base? 'Cause I love that we went from tech to no chief tech, like, you know, laser focused who the folks are. And I think, you know, a lot of thought leaders come from the school of, well, so many people can benefit from what I have and every, and it's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Because now the next time a CTO calls you, you have incredible credibility. You can say, I've worked with 20 people just like you in these type of situations. And without having to say it out loud, it's therefore I'm your, I'm your guy, right? There's, this is a no-brainer versus if one day it's a CTO and one day it's a, you know, I don't know, a creative director at an art agency or an ad agency and you know, like on and on. So gimme a sense of the sort of the, the types of problems that you're solving for them.

Yeah. I mean, one of the, the biggest challenges I've just recently started to work with is this idea of breaking down silos in their functions.

And sure.

You know, there's a lot of challenges of dealing with different teams trying to do different things. And how do you get people talking together? And so I kind of see myself as the person who breaks down the barriers in terms of communication between groups. But it starts with that leader coming to me and saying, hey, I know there's more we can do, and I know there's more we can impact in this organization by really getting people talking together. And, and I need your help to come in and help me facilitate that process. Okay. So I'll come in as an advisor and a coach. As you said earlier, it's not just coaching, it's advising too, and working with the team as well to the extent that that's what's needed.

If you're enjoying this episode of Leveraging Thought Leadership, please make sure to subscribe. If you'd like to help spread the word about our podcast, please leave a 5-star review at ratethispodcast.com/LTL and share it with your friends. We're available on Apple Podcasts and on all major listening apps, as well as at thoughtleadershipleverage.com/podcast. And how much of the work that you do requires Tony to be in the room or the Zoom versus derivatives of your thinking and thought leadership that could be licensed or productized?

I love, I love the way you think, Peter. You know, most of it right now at this point is, is a lot of in the room and, and being, um, um, engaged with the team, which I think is good because, you know, uh, by me being there with them, it allows me to see the interactions, ensuring that the teams are together and creating that space for connection. I think that's really important. But as time goes on, I do want to find ways to productize that to an extent that allows them to say, here's the structure, here's the process, you can follow this path.

Got it. Got it. And I want to touch a little bit on the place at least from my experience, where most thought leaders, authors, advisors, coaches, consultants struggle the most. And that's on the sales, marketing, business development side, doing the work. Like if I were to magically just pick you up and say, oh, tomorrow morning at 2, here's a CTO who's having this problem, blah, blah, blah. You can knock that out of the park, right?

Yeah.

But the whole part about finding clients and marketing and positioning, hmm, I don't know. Lots of thought leaders, like that's where they choke, that's where they struggle, that's where they have a tough time. How, how do you wrestle with that?

Yeah, I was just writing an article about this and, and, uh, it's something that I, I struggle with, but that's why I wrote an article about it because, you know, you have to write what you don't know.

Well, there's, there's, um, a piece I'm about to do on, it's not a self-help book, but it was a book that helped me. Like, why does someone write the book they do? So I love the idea that you're writing an article on something that you're struggling with. Yeah. You might as well put it out there as well as thought leadership. But anyway, go back to the question. Yeah.

So first of all, it's about— I call it affiliate, associate. Sorry.

Article. And you'll get back to me on the third.

Exactly. I'm still working on it.

Generate. Only two-thirds done, obviously.

Yeah, they're all eights. But I think that the key thing here— so when it comes to affiliate, I mean, first of all, knowing that— collaborate was the word I couldn't think of.

Okay.

So affiliate comes down to this idea that we have to find other people who are doing have skill sets and expertise and bring them to the table, the more we can refer other people, curate resources, then that becomes a golden tool to bring into other businesses. So I'm a curator of experts, I like to say.

Excellent. Yeah.

By doing so, that becomes like a great way for me to enter an organization and say, hey, I have a person for that. I have a guy, I have a girl for that.

That's, uh, there's a technical term in New York we use for that. It's called got a guy, right? Yeah, exactly. Right.

Associate is figuring out what, what groups are you part of that are actually gonna help you to, to unlock not only your own, um, you know, the network that's going to, to give you referrals, get you the business you need to, but also your learning and your, um, professional and, and personal development to keep you on your edge. And this is hard because a lot of groups out there can be really crappy. So you have to go through a lot of kissing some toads before you get to the frog. And then the collaborate, I think highly of this quote, which is that amateurs compete and professionals create. So when we collaborate with others, it's about finding ways that two people coming together can collaborate and make something even bigger together.

Love it. Love it. And I think the, the other sort of thread to that that I would add is the mistake that lots of thought leaders make, at least early on, is, okay, I don't like the marketing and sales thing, but I'll do it a little bit. Then I get some clients. Now I'm really, really busy, so I don't have to do it. Right? Mm-hmm. And then the projects dry up as they inevitably do. And then you come up for air and your P&L looks like, you know, the EKG of a cardiac victim, right? Like that you have to constantly do it and the amount of marketing and thought leadership that you're putting out in the world shouldn't be an inverse to how busy you are. It needs to be done even when you don't need it today because we always need it. So how do you, how would you respond to that?

Yeah, I mean, I won't say that I've completely figured it out, but I think that's one of those things that we need to, from time to time, step away and say, okay, where am I balancing my load? Where am I keep creating that sense of, okay, connection to what's going on next. I came from a finance background, so I realized that there is a sense of looking ahead and planning for the future and knowing that if I don't spend time on those things, then I will be in trouble. There's a sense of planning for the next while also living in the current.

And I think some of that requires tools and other things to make sure that the content is getting out there and the thought leadership is getting out there and those marketing things are happening, irregardless of, you know, does Tony have a busy day or a light day today?

Exactly. Which, you know, I didn't mention the last of the things that I was going to say, which was generating content. I think it's so important to continue to generate content that plants seeds for the future and consistently doing it.

Yeah, 100%.

So key because those are the things that also can plant seeds for future opportunities.

When I like what you said earlier in that, yeah, I was struggling with that, so I decided to write an article about it, right? So I love this idea of, you know, we're all lazy, but we don't have to keep things in separate buckets. You could conflate content development with business development. You can create, you know, connect it with something that you're struggling with. It doesn't need to be, you know, I'm spending 2 hours on creating great thought leadership. Than a different 2 hours on business development. Like I would look at all the different things that you have to do and say, how can I connect the dots here? Right? Yeah. And if I'm struggling with this issue, others might, and it might be an opportunity to relationship build. Let me reach out to some folks and get some quotes for the article. Like I love that, that way of thinking as well, Tony.

There's 2 words that come to mind when I think about what you just shared. And it, and it actually is something that drives me a lot is connection and leverage, right? Yeah. Leverage is really about finding ways to do more with less.

Uh, yeah.

Not, not more to make more impact.

With less.

And that might mean taking two things and doing them at the same time because they create more of an impact by doing them together. You know, writing an article that actually solves a problem for you or collaborating with somebody else on something that is going to drive the needle in your business. And, and connection is a very, very big part of this. I've recently started to see connection as like we need to connect with some people who we haven't talked to in a long time. And say, like, where have I not really closed out or connected with people who I need to talk to? I've recently been talking to some people who I went to my MBA program with, like, you know, 20 years ago or so. And I, I've found that that's actually something that I felt bad about, but also has been fruitful. You know, we've been having some great conversations and saying, like, how are we going to work together?

Well, and I think that's interesting is that people tend to think of different phases of their life as different chapters, as isolated. So now, I love you thinking like, wait, my MBA cohorts, do they know what I'm doing today? And how could they be of help to me? Because even though we had this relationship, might be 20 years ago or whatever, I could re-spark that. Chances are someone that was getting an MBA 20 years ago, 20 years later might be someone that you'd want to be of interest, whether you lost touch. And usually we lose touch with people not because we don't like them anymore or care about, just life happens, right? So having the courage to reconnect and say, hey, I'd look to Update, you know, give, tell you what I'm doing. Cool. Well, as we start to wrap, anything, you know, you've been at this quite some time now. What would you say to someone that is in the situation you were in, you know, whatever, when you started down the thought leadership journey some years ago, 10 years ago or something? What would you tell them in terms of advice?

Yeah, first of all, have more conversations, talk to more people. And even the people who, like, just getting out and having conversations with people who you wouldn't normally expect open up a door to new learning. If you go in with an open mind, you might find that they have connections that would create momentum for you. The most unexpected places. And I'll just share one thing that I learned early on. Some of the most unreachable people are reachable. You just have to have the courage to say, hey, I'm fascinated by what you do, and I would love to see what I could learn from you.

I think that's totally true. People think some of the folks they follow, some of the followers, oh my, they're in the stratosphere. They love their stuff. So if you reach out to them in a really thoughtful way, they tend to be fairly generous. Most. There are a couple of jerks out there, right? But they tend to be really good and generous. And want to engage in that intellectual sparring and great conversations. I love that. And that feels better for most people than, oh, I've got to put my salesman hat on today. Right? I'd love to have great conversations around a topic with an expert in that domain. So this has been great, Tony. I appreciate your time and I appreciate you. And thank you for joining us today.

Thank you so much. It's been a lot of fun.

To learn more about Thought Leadership Leverage, please visit our website at thoughtleadershipleverage.com. To reach me directly, feel free to email me at peter@thoughtleadershipleverage.com. And please subscribe to Leveraging Thought Leadership on iTunes or your favorite podcast app to get your weekly episode automatically.