Culture in Marketing | Marcus Collins | 544

And welcome, welcome, welcome. This is Peter Winick. I'm the founder and CEO at Thought Leadership Leverage, and you're joining us on the podcast, which is Leveraging Thought Leadership. Really excited about today's episode. I've got Marcus Collins here. He's an award-winning marketer and culture translator with one foot in the world of practice. He's the chief strategy officer at Wieden and Kennedy, small little, uh, agency. And then he's also a marketing prof at the Ross School of Business at the University of Michigan. He's got a couple books out. We've got a new one. And before getting into all of the minutia of his bio, I'd rather just talk to him because he's quite unique. So welcome aboard, Marcus.

Thanks for having me, Peter Winick. Good to be here.

And I will just mention, although this will be dated, is we're recording this the day after that team in Michigan won some sort of a football game. So there's a little bit of gloat going on here. Because Marcus is also a Detroit native. So there's a little—

We call it zeal.

Zeal. Oh, there we go. They call it zeal, said the marketer. Okay. So, so let's start with, give us the short version of your backstory because what I always find from a thought leadership perspective is you've got, you know, one camp of academics and one camp of practitioners and never the twain shall meet, but you've met.

So indeed. So I, I consider my career is really about bridging the academic practitioner gap. I spend a majority of my time on the practicing side, uh, working in marketing and advertising. I'm from Detroit, born and raised. Is, you know, I start that way because I feel like I'm a product of the city. Went to go study engineering, realized I didn't want to be an engineer, end up writing love songs for a living, much to my parents' chagrin. Went back—

as do most, as do most engineers. That's what we do. Yeah, that's the— right, right.

End up going back to school to get my MBA, worked at Apple. Moved to New York, ran digital strategy for Beyoncé, and then really found a home in the world, in the world of advertising. And along the way, I started to explore the social sciences, like to understand who we are as a species, people, and what are the underlying physics that govern what we do. And as a marketer, that's very compelling because our job is to get people to adopt behavior. So understanding why people do what they do and the invisible forces that swayed them became really compelling for me. And in that, in that pursuit, not only did I start learning more about us, but my work got tremendously better, like infinitely better. And I said, oh, that's the, that's the, the cheat code. Understanding the theory, understanding the, the academic side and applying it to, to the practice. So I went and got a doctorate and not like you make it, you know, sound like I just went and got one, but I pursued a doctorate.

Right. You say I went on and got a doctorate like it was a weekend. Course at, you know, whatever.

So I pursued a doctoral degree at Temple University, and now I sit in the world of academia firmly as a full-time professor at the Ross School of Business, University of Michigan, most recently at Wieden Kennedy. And I use my, you know, my experience as a practitioner and my understanding as an academic to help brands, people, institutions, organizations, entities politician, activist. I help them get people to move. Like, that's really what the, the crux of my work is. How do we get people to move by understanding the cultural subscription to which they subscribe that ultimately governs how they show up in the world?

Got it. And you're, and you're still doing, obviously, even though you're, you're full-time professor at Ross, advisory work, consulting work, et cetera there. So it's not like you're only academic, right?

I'll never only be an academic and I'll never only be a practitioner. It's the, the bridging of the two. It's the convergence of the two where I think I'm at my best. So I do what I call a professor in residence, uh, with other, with other companies to help them leverage this thinking. Not only have the provocation, which the book provides, but how do they integrate into their work? So I spend a lot of time working with companies to do that.

Got it. So tell, tell us about the latest book.

Yeah, so the book is called For the Culture: The Power Behind What We Buy, What We Do, and who we wanna be. And it makes a, what I think is a clear argument that there's no external force more influential to human behavior than culture, full stop. And when people hear that, they go, yeah, totally. Culture is very influential for sure. But if you ask 5 people to define culture, you get 55 different answers. That's a problem.

Yeah.

Because if we can't define a thing concretely, how do we ever leverage it? How do we ever harness it? How do we ever operationalize it? So the book takes the first step to to not only provide this provocation, but to create, create a, a Rosetta Stone, a translation, a verbiage vernacular that we can use, shared language that we can use leveraging what we know from the behavioral sciences and then take it.

But, but so, so that, but, but that being said, then, uh, you know, ask 20 people what culture means, you get 40 answers. Define it for us then.

Yep. So at least, so I think about culture through a sociological lens, particularly looking at the world. Uh, through the lens of Émile Durkheim, one of the founding fathers of sociology, who referred to culture as the system of conventions and expectations that demarcate who we are and govern what people like us do. It's a system of systems. It's the governing operating system by which we carve out our identity in the world. And then what is expected and expected and acceptable for people like us. Right? It's anchored in our identity, who we are.

Yeah.

Right? And because of who we are, we see the world a certain way, right? Like for some, a cow is leather, for others it's a deity, and for some it's dinner. Which one is it? It's all those things depending on who you are. And because of who we are, we show up in the cert— in the world a certain way, right? If I think of cows as dinner, I eat meat, I eat beef, right? But if a cow's a deity, I interact with a cow differently, right? For instance, I'm a Collins, right? It's my identity. We believe family and church come first, therefore Sunday mornings, I'm in the church sanctuary. I'm a Michigan Wolverine. We believe that Ohio State sucks. So every time I have a chance to defecate on Ohio State, I do it because they suck. I'm joking. Right.

But, but the idea there is that, but are you, but are you really joking?

Eh, jokingly serious. Here's the interesting part. Before I came to Michigan, cause I went here undergrad and for my MBA, before I started teaching here, before I came to Michigan, I didn't really care about Ohio State. And when I got here, I developed a disdain for the school because that's what's normal. That's what's expected here. Now this is the interesting part. This is what I think is like really, really interesting that when my identity shifted to becoming a professor, my perspective on Ohio State has shifted. Ohio State is an institution full of really smart people who do meaningful work, right? It's just another institution. Like, and because I'm both an alumni and a professor, I'm constantly battling that duality of my identity. And how I see these people, this group of people, this institution, right?

So if you, if you're, so if you're identifying and in the moment as, uh, reflecting on when you were, you know, 20 as an undergrad, right? They're the bad guys.

They're all right.

Whatever. But now as, as an academic saying, well, but here's 3 or 4 academics over there doing similar work to I, that I really would love to collaborate with and appreciate and admire.

Exactly. Exactly. And that's the thing, you know, the, the big takeaway of the book in my opinion is that things aren't the way they are. They are the way that we are, right?

Yeah.

They're not the way they are objectively. They're where we are subjectively. And because of how we see the world, the world manifests a certain way. And because of how we see the world, not only does the world manifest a certain way, but we then behave in the world accordingly. And if we understand how people see the world, that we can engage them in such a way that gets them to adopt behavior, which we know is to be the core function of marketing.

So I wanna stay on the marketing piece, but I wanna sort of take a different twist on it. So this is not your first book, right?

Well, so I, I did an anthology before, but this is my first solo book.

Okay. First solo. Okay. So that, okay. So if, if, if the other one was an anthology, I'll make the assumption that you probably didn't put, you, you weren't totally responsible for the marketing and, and all that stuff.

No, not at all.

Contributed your chapter.

That's right.

What is it about the way that you'd like to market this book or your approach to marketing this book, given that it's your first, right? That's different or unique because as, as you know, marketing books is just not easy.

No, no. And thing is what it, what it became for me, it, it really, it, it really was like a moment of truth in that I approached, I had to approach launching the book like I would launch any product for any client. That's a very hard thing to do when you are the client. And it was an industry that I didn't understand very well either. I didn't know the publishing world very well, so I had to learn the industry, learn the players, learn the consumer behavior around it, and then design based on the congregation of people I wanted to interact with. And what I ended up doing is I literally went to market with the book the way that I tell brands to go to market. That is, Start with who are you? How do you see the world? What do you believe? What is your own culture? Yep. Who are the people who see the world the way you do, right? People who subscribe to the same point of view that you do, and you go preach the gospel. And if you do that, if you activate those people based on the shared, the shared conviction that you have, yeah, then those people will go evangelize on your behalf.

If you're enjoying this episode of Leveraging Thought Leadership.

Please make sure to subscribe. If you'd like to help spread the word about our podcast, please leave a 5-star review at ratethispodcast.com/LTL and share it with your friends. We're available on Apple Podcasts and on all major listening apps, as well as at thoughtleadershipleverage.com/podcast. So stay there for a minute because I, I, I think there's some brilliance in that, in that a lot of people, when they get a book out, they'll say something like, well, everybody should read this book. And this book applies to everybody. And it's like, okay, great. Problem is you don't have the marketing budget to reach everybody.

That's right.

And it's really, really expensive to be in the conversion business. So step one is, you know, if there's a whole group of people that believe the opposite of what you do, or it's not important, okay, good luck to them. Right? Let me find my people. Let me find my tribe that really will lean in hard. And then it's, they, you don't even have to tell them. They will organically or naturally evangelize and say, oh man, I just picked up this guy Marcus's book and hey man, I know you're gonna love it because I know we think similarly. And, and similarly doesn't mean bland, right? Like we have similar perspectives. Our perspectives might be totally out there and bizarro.

That's right. But we share that exactly in that way. Yeah, exactly. And, and that's the thing is that when we, when we approach marketing, going to market in that manner, We find that people don't tell other people because they love you. They tell other people because they love their people and they end up preaching the gospel about you evangelizing on your behalf as a way of projecting their own identity. Not because of what, who you are, but because of who they are. And people go and tell other people about the book as a way to saying like, hey, hey, hey Pete, like, you know, Peter, you and I, like, I know you're gonna love this because we always talk about this. Or dude, this is right up your alley. And by sharing it with you, you go, Marcus, thanks so much, dude. Like, that's exactly what I was looking for. You know me so well.

Well, and there's a piece of that, and, and I think there's a piece of that, that if I subscribe to the beliefs in the book, whether I, I've thought about it that way and I read the book and go, oh yeah, hallelujah, this guy's on the money, right? When I give that to someone else, I don't have to say, this is what I think. I'm giving to them and say, hey, here's a guy that's much smarter than me. He's a prophet, Ross, and da da da da da. Look what he thinks. By the way, happens to be what I think, right? Or I wouldn't give you the book. That didn't, right. But it all, but it, it's sort of a weird way of validating my belief system and, and my worldview.

It becomes a, a means of social currency. It's like sharing, you know, like telling your friend about a funny movie because by telling them about a funny movie, it means that you have good taste. Right. It means that, that you know what good humor is, or you know what a good restaurant is, or you have good taste when it comes to travel or whatever we recommend. We recommend these things. So that we can strengthen relationships with our people, right? The product in this case, the book is just, uh, it's just currency by which people exchange to bring each other closer together. And thinking about the book that way, it's, it's a humble thing to do because this isn't about you, Marcus. This is about the ideas becoming a way by which people peacock to the world who they are and find people like themselves. So I build the, the launch in that fashion. Like, who are my people who see the world the way I do? Luckily, I had been teaching for roughly 10 years, so I said, I want to reach out to my students, people who take my class, my favorite students. People who already know the gospel, they already believe it. And perhaps—

but I think you buried the lead there, by the way. Professors do have favorite students.

Yeah, right.

Period. And if you don't know who they are, it's probably not you. Just saying, right?

I reached out to some of my favorites, not all of them.

Some of the most favorite. There you go.

There you go.

So Marcus didn't reach out to you.

And what I know is that I really, I reached out to the ones who not only knew the gospel because they did well in the course.

Yes.

But they believed the gospel from the courses that I, that I taught.

Sure.

And they probably tried to institute the thinking in their work since they've taken my class.

So stay there for a minute because again, this is one of the quirkinesses of marking a book, if that's a word, which you're marketing the book, but you, but it's sort of only one thing that you're marketing, right? So the book is one place that all these ideas live, right?

Right.

In a, in an easy thing you can grab for $25, $30, whatever it is. But the reality as a thought leader is when you're marketing a book on some level, yeah, you care about book sales, but on other levels, there's other things that you want to happen as a result of the book. Maybe they book you to speak, or they hire you as a high-paid consultant or whatever. So it's sort of marketing once removed, right?

So what I find is that the, the, the most important part about the book is just scaling the thinking. It's getting the thinking in the hands and the minds of more people. Correct.

So one, so where I was going with that, if I were you going through list of my, you know, favorite students, right? They might be more favorite if they happen to be the CMO at a company that looked like one that you might wanna do business with. Theoretically than if they were working at an underfunded nonprofit. You know, bless their hearts. But if you, if one of your objectives was to drive your business, then you gotta say, ah, hmm, these people are in positions that can really be helpful to me. The book is just sort of the first bite of the apple, if you will.

100%. One, it, you know, I, I liken it to artists today who release an album so they can go on tour.

Right.

Yep. So I reached out to some of my favorite students who not only understood the gospel being empirically evidenced in their performance in the course, but also, you know, that they believed it. And I reached out to them and I said, hey, I wrote this book. Like, it's going to be very— it's going to seem very familiar because it's all things that I've taught in class. And what I've asked you to do, what I'm asking you to do is just tell your people, tell the people you think who would benefit the most from it, tell the people who you believe would like it. Right. And I, and we had a very uniform way, which we're going to do it where we'd have, we asked them the day that the book come out to take a picture of themselves holding the book, just the book cover. Sure. Like, they don't, and if you look at all of my socials and that, that's like, that's the picture that I use to promote the book. Me, of course, just like reading the book. Right. And, and I asked all my students to do that to create a network effect. And the hope is that there are people who go like, like, 4 of my friends are reading this book. What is this book? Now they're gonna lean in, right?

Or like, what do they see that I don't? How do I not? I gotta be, I gotta get this. Everybody's online for Krispy Kreme, right?

Like, I gotta get online for the Krispy Kreme because nothing draws a crowd like a crowd. And yeah, and this is really one of the foundational principles in the book is that, look, belief and belonging, it's core to what it is to be human. You know, we, the way we see the world, our beliefs are the way, the way by which we translate the world and ultimately navigate the world and belonging. We have a, we have a, a, an inherent bias to belong. And if our people are doing a thing, then we are inclined to do it so that we stay in concert with our people. Like we're evolutionarily wired to do that very thing.

Right. Right. So what, what does success, you know, let, let's say we, we schedule time to talk, whatever, 6 months from now, right? So you're post-launch and the dust is settled and all that sort of stuff. What are you hoping, what does success look like for you? What do you believe it will look like for you relative to the book?

That the book and its ideas become adopted into the cultural zeitgeist. And that is love it. The way people talk about culture, it's much more concrete because they use the language from the book. The way people talk about each other, right? Instead of saying, yeah, those people are crazy. Say, no, those people abide by a different meaning-making system than I do. Right.

And, and that language piece, you, you know, when I look at, at the thought leadership and you look at sort of that, the fundamental layer is one of the way, one of the reasons it gets adopted is giving people in whatever the domain is, language models, methods, and frameworks to be able to concisely communicate an idea. Right? Because culture, like you said, you know, challenge anybody that's listening to this, go out and ask 5 people what culture means. You will get 5 different definitions. None of them, or unless they read the book, as tight as the way Marcus defined it. Right? So there is value in, and I think, you know, this is sort of the curse of the expert, getting it down to, okay, what's at the base of the pyramid? We need to have some, you know, if I were to say to you, Marcus, let's meet up for lunch the next time I'm in Michigan, you know, that's a midday meal. You know, that's when I'm in Michigan, right? I'm, I'm not gonna show up at your doorstep at 2 in the morning. There's a set of expectations. Expectations.

Yes.

You know, then I might say, well, I'm vegan. He'd say, oh geez, I can't take him to my favorite steakhouse. Like, whatever.

Right?

Like, so then we, but the queuing of that, it goes on. And I think there's an, there's a lot of value in that, even though we might not articulate that we need it when it's given to us. It's like, phew, that's a relief. That just made my life easier.

I think that that's actually the most important part is that, yes, I look at this and I approach it, interrogate it through a business lens, through a commerce, through a marketing lens, right? That's only to illustrate the ideas. I illustrate the thinking. What I'm really trying to get at is that this is not a marketing book. It's a people book. And the hope is that if people see that, oh, someone abides by a different meaning-making system than I do, a different cultural makeup than I do, i.e., they're vegan. I'm, you know, I eat steaks. Then I go, okay, that doesn't make them wrong and me right. Nor does it make me right and them wrong.

Right. So now there's a line between the principles of marketing and sociology and philosophy and civilization. Like now it's like, whoa, where are we going here? Right now?

Exactly.

Now you're flexing your academic Yeah. Chop, Cheryl.

That's the powerful part here is that the world isn't objective. It's subjective, which means that, that your truth is just as true as my truth, even if they don't align. And so long as your truth doesn't mean my oppression, then, oh man, we can rock. Right?

Yeah, exactly.

We can rock. And that to me, I think is, is an idea that's worth spreading. It's an idea worth scaling. It's an idea worth consuming.

An idea worth spreading. Are you pitching a TED Talk?

Is it an idea worth spreading?

Are you just— Are you pitching that? There you go. Cool. Well, this has been awesome. I appreciate your time and, and, uh, your insights. Lots of good stuff here, and I wish you the best, uh, with the launch of the book, Marcus. Thank you so much.

I'm grateful. Thanks so much for having me.

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