Elevating Others Thought Leadership | Watchen Nyanue Hampton | 546

Peter Winick. Well, you've probably spent some time in the spotlight yourself. Maybe you got a round of applause when you were on stage, or you felt the joy of seeing your name listed as the author of an article or a book. But today I want to talk about the power of shining the thought leadership spotlight on others. Especially emerging talent within your organization. Joining me today is Wacan Nyannou Hampton. She's the founder and CEO of I Choose the Ladder, a boutique consulting firm at the intersection of talent, culture, and strategy. Today we talk about thought leadership as a purposeful strategy for talent, increasing employee engagement, attracting top talent, and planning for succession. I'm Bill Sherman, and you're listening to Leveraging Thought Leadership. Ready? Let's begin.

Welcome to the show, Wajih.

Thank you so much for having me. I've been looking forward to this conversation, so really excited to be here.

We've got a lot of ground to cover, and I think one of the places that I want to begin— you and I have had a conversation of turning to the usual suspects. In thought leadership. And you were sharing backstage with me a great example of how that works to disadvantage. Why don't we start there?

Yeah, so I think that oftentimes, especially in corporate spaces, we want to default to the thing that's easiest, right? So there are a handful of people that we know, and whenever there are opportunities that come up to share perspective or highlight someone, we go to the person that's easiest. And oftentimes that means that there are voices and perspectives and experiences that get pushed to the background that could actually be an asset for the organization or the person if we were able to bring them to the forefront. So I was sharing with you, I was planning with a partner of ours and, you know, Black History Month is coming around. There's always Black History Month programming. And in a lot of these organizations, because the diversity numbers are what they are, there are a bunch of usual suspects that if you need a Black employee, this is who you put forward. And if you need a woman, this is who you put forward. If you need someone who's a member of the LGBTQ community, this is— like, we have our go-tos. But there are other people in the population who also belong to those groups, who have interesting stories, who are thought leaders in their spaces, who could benefit from having that exposure. And so our conversation was, for Black History Month, if we want to tell the stories of Black people within this company, how do we not default to the usual suspects? And actually raise some other thought leaders up to the forefront who have meaningful contributions that they could also share.

I love that because it requires conscious effort and thought and planning because, as you said, it is easy to default to the usual suspects. It's easy to retell the stories we know. And often repetition is a good thing. But it also can be off-putting. And you gave an example of that as well. So I want to hand that back to you.

About it being off— so here's the thing. If you've heard me speak a lot, you could probably tell me the stories that I'm going to tell, right? It can be a bit of like, oh, this is the same song and dance. And actually, it comes across really lazy, right, to the audience and to the people who are there. But it also makes your employees or the people who are who are in the organization feel less valued. So when we talk about people's— what they prioritize is they want to be seen, they want to be heard, and even if you don't make a different decision, they want to be considered, right? And so if there's someone who is in a space and you're giving voice to someone who they feel like doesn't adequately represent them or their experience, it could turn them off to wanting to engage in whatever it is that you're bringing forward. So even if you bring someone up who has a lot of expertise, if they don't feel like that person adequately reflects their experience in their thought leadership, in their conversation, they tune them off. And they comes across as inauthentic, as you just checking the box and not necessarily caring about what they need on the other side.

So there's several things here I want to explore. First one being, how do you expand the lens? And you use the example of the client that you're working with, the partner, where you said, hey, we're going to look more expansively. How do you do that? How do you find the people who might be interested in the opportunity of having the spotlight shown on them but haven't had it yet?

So what I'm going to say is going to be a little controversial, but go with me. You actually have to get to know people as people. You have to know people, right? Like, there is a sense of like— and to me, it's like, it's not rocket science. You can't— if you don't know someone, or you don't know their experience, you don't know whether they want to or not. And I think we have to humanize the ways in which we interact with each other, be that in professional spaces, be that in the clubs that we're a part of. Have a conversation with somebody who may not look like you, who you assume does not have the same experience, but who— If you talk to them for 5 or 10 minutes, there's so many things that you probably have in common. And if you're someone who is in a leadership role, it is your job to know the people who you are leading, right? So that you understand what they need in order to give you what you need, right? It's a reciprocal relationship. And so part of that looks like asking questions, being genuinely interested in people, right? Not what they can do for the bottom line or what they can do for what you need. It's like, watching, who— what are you interested in, right? There are certain things that when you talk to me about, I will light up. But I may not just offer that up or volunteer that information, right? So if you are someone who is— who has the spotlight also, you can defer that spotlight. You can transfer your power to someone else. If you're someone who knows that they're always picking on me, I can say, hey, you know, I've done the last 4 panels. I met with, you know, Sarah yesterday. And I feel like she would be a great candidate for this. You don't always have to say yes. If you are the person, it doesn't make you less than. You can share your power with other people.

Well, and building on that, a call for— a generic call for applications within the workspace saying, hey, we're looking for speakers, fill out this form if you're interested, doesn't have that human touch relevance. And you're probably not going to get the same people raising their hands as if you went to someone individually and say, hey, I know you really are passionate about this topic and you understand it. I think you'd be great for this. And you can either open—

Go ahead. You know how special that would make someone feel? That's like me saying, I see you, right? Not the applications and all. If someone's like, I see that you have this contribution, like that makes the person on the other end feel so special, but then it also makes them want to do a good job for you. And so the level of prep they're going to put into it is going to be different. The pride that they feel in what they share, the value that they see, the contributions that they see that you see, it makes a huge difference in morale. It makes a huge difference in retention. It makes a huge difference in loyalty to the company or to that person. Just to say, like, I see you, something that simple, right, makes— like, pays off in dividends. I'm in those spaces.

I see you. I may not fully understand you and all of the pieces of yourself, the ones that are outside of work, communities that you're involved in, et cetera. But I can see a piece of you and I see an opportunity for you. And I think as a leader, the ability to open doors, whether it's a door that someone might not see themselves for speaking at a place that's like, I never thought of talking there. You want me? To speak there or asking them where they might want to speak about their passions, right? Because the communities that they touch, whether professional or whatever communities they're a part of, may not be ones that you see and that may be invisible to you because the world is wide and wonderful and there's no way all of us and touch all of the communities and groups of interest, any of us can't do it. We need many.

And one of the things— so we used to do a podcast a while back, and we would talk about, when did you know it was time to move on, right, to like a new job, another opportunity? And the answer almost always was, there was a leader who saw something in me that I didn't see in myself who encouraged me to take that step. So part of leadership, part of the impact that you can have in the thought leadership space is seeing the potential that someone has to be a voice, right, in spaces that you may not occupy or spaces that you may not understand. You and I talked about a documentary that I watched on Tyler Perry. And he talks about the executive, right, who— I think Tyler had, like, opened movies at number 1 or whatever. So he goes— he's at a major studio. And he calls in his diversity counsel. And he says, I've never heard of this guy. Like, who is he? Has anybody in here heard of him? And every Black person in the room raised their hand. And no one else— anybody else who was not Black had never heard of him. So that was a market opportunity that was not because he was being malicious, it just was not a part of his sphere, but having other thought leaders in the room who can say, oh, that guy did this or he does this, it's an asset.

Absolutely. And that's one of, I think, the strongest arguments out there for when you're looking at an organization's thought leadership for having many different voices that touch different communities, have different perspectives, different origin stories, because otherwise it's the usual suspects speaking to the usual audience. And like you said earlier, those folks know, oh, in minute 15, this person's gonna do that story with this joke and this twist. Nobody's excited by that. That's not thought leadership. That's sort of like, you know, a canned routine, wind up and go.

Maybe the first time you see it, it's impactful, but by the 10th time, And the level of being so predictable, right? Like, you have a wealth of knowledge in organizations that people bring to the table. And to me, to not find a way to utilize that and use it as an asset is a huge missed opportunity for organizations.

So I want to turn to some of the work that you do because it relates very much to this. You use the phrase that it's a daily choice for an individual to climb the ladder. What do you mean by that? And can you help unpack that?

Yeah, so I'm big on— and not like fake positivity, but I'm big on being intentional about the way that you craft your life and your career and to always know that you have a choice. You may not like the choices that are in front of you. And the choices in front of you may very well be terrible. But there are choices, right? And so for people who are going into work, A lot of times we look at corporate spaces or we look at our job as a thing that is holding us back. But in reality, you're choosing to be there. And so if you're going to choose to be there, you have to figure out how to have that thing be an asset for you as opposed to something that you grudgingly go to every day. Because you're going to have to go there, right? You're going to go to work. You're going to do the things that are required. And so there are things that we all know that things— people are up against, right? And for depending on the demographic that you're a part of, what you're up against while you climb the corporate ladder looks very different. But you can choose at any point to get off the ladder, right? You can choose at any point to go and do something else or make a different choice for your life. But while you are making the choice to be in these spaces, figure out what you need from them, what contributions you can offer to them, and how you can create a life for you and your family that you can hopefully be really proud of.

So— there's a lot of complexity there, right? Because you look at it from an integrated self perspective rather than just, hey, this is me trying to get the next promotion or the next opportunity. You talk about family, you talk about all of the things of who you are when you're not at work and that integrated self. And I think that's a piece too both for someone who wants to practice thought leadership and climb the ladder, as well as for the leaders. You've got to be— again, goes back to what you said— know your people and take time to see them and understand them.

Yeah. And because the thing is, you don't leave parts of you at home when you come to work. And that's one of the things that I think we've seen in the last, you know, 3 or 4 years with COVID and people becoming caretakers and a lot of responsibilities that all of a sudden that we can't hide. When you're on Zoom, people see your house. If you have children or pets or whoever, they're running around in the background, right? And so I think it removed the thought that there's a work self and there's a home self. And there's a— right now, there are parts of your personality that may be more dominant depending on the space that you're in. But you are who you are regardless of where you are. And I think one of the quotes— and I may be getting this wrong— but it says, how terrible would it be to climb the ladder of success only to get to the top and realize that your ladder was leaning against the wrong building, right? So you get all the way to the top. And you're like, what is this? And there's so many people who are not thinking about it in an integrated way. It's what's the next promotion? What's the next raise? What's the next this? And you get all of the things. You get all the accolades. You speak on every panel. You are that default. And then you're still so unhappy. And it's like, yeah, because your ladder was not— that's not the building that you were meant to climb. You climbed it because— for whatever reason or whatever was motivating you at the time. But you have to be— I think in this day and age with all that we've seen in the last 3 or 4 years, I think you have to approach this from an integrated space. And that's what makes you an interesting thought leader because it's not a one-dimensional approach to what you're speaking on. And you have put in different experiences that allow you to speak in a way that is powerful, that is captivating, and that can make change on a larger scale.

And with that, for the people who have climbed the ladder, whether they're leaning against the right building or the wrong building, one of the things is when you reach a certain level, you have the ability to either step in the spotlight yourself or shine the spotlight on others. And if I were to echo back to you, you said it's a choice to climb the ladder. It's also a daily choice either to, for a leader to continue to step into the spotlight, shine the spotlight on others. And if they shine it on others, who do they choose and why? Right? And I've reached a point personally where there's a lot of joy being the person behind the spotlight and go, come on, let's go have a good conversation and here's an opportunity for you. Go after it.

And I think that's a sign of growth, right? Because you realize after a while that the spotlight is just— it's just something extra. Like, it comes with some things that after a while, you're like, I don't really need all of that, right? When you're more junior, middle career, right, there are definite payoffs for having a bright— being that young star. Right. And it's not all or nothing, right? Like, you can decide as a leader or more senior person, this is an opportunity that I want to take advantage of because of whatever reason. But then—

Whether it's personally that you want to take advantage of it, or you were the right person to be in the spotlight. Yeah, there are times where the spotlight is for that more seasoned person for one reason or another.

But you have to be self-aware enough to know when that's ego versus when that is actually the thought leader, like the experience that's necessary. Because sometimes there are opportunities that are not ours, but because of whatever that fuels in us, we— I feel like it's like scarcity. Like, we just want to gobble it all up. But I think a seasoned leader is able to decipher between when this is an opportunity for me versus when this is an opportunity that is coming through me for someone else.

Exactly. Exactly. And the ability to delegate and to hand off is critical to a leader's growth anyway. And it's true also in thought leadership. It doesn't have to be about you.

But Bill, so like, people will say that until it comes to the spotlight, right?

Right, right.

You love to delegate the work. You love to delegate all of the things that you don't like to do. But when it's you being the star— so delegation also goes to thought leadership. It also goes to, you know, the opportunities to be on the panel, to travel to this place and do these things. You've been doing it for 20 years, right? And we love that. However, there— you know, when we think about succession planning, that goes to thought leadership as well, right? If your company is going to be viable and seen as a leader, It can't be like, oh, somebody said this is his 46th time hosting this event. Everybody was like, ugh.

Duh.

Right? You don't want that to be the story around you and who you are when you show up in these spaces. And so that delegation also extends to the spotlight.

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Well, and in the spotlight, the spotlight can be very ego-stroking, right? There are a few things that you can do if you're delivering a keynote or something where you get a standing ovation. There are very few jobs you do anything for 45 minutes and get a standing ovation, right? Or you write an article and all of a sudden you see your name in an article or a book or something. Those are all things that are flattering to the self and the ego. But you talked about succession planning. And I want to combine succession planning with a conversation about retention because those two are in many ways twins or two sides of the same coin. You can't plan if you can't grow and retain your people.

Absolutely. And you and I talked briefly about this, you know, with the market the way that it is right now, sometimes you can't give everybody who deserves a promotion a promotion. You can't give everybody who deserves more money money. And so there are ways to be creative to have tools of retention. And I feel like the spotlight and thought leadership and grooming someone and letting someone within your organization know, I see you, right? I see your potential.

Mm-hmm.

These are the opportunities that we're going to help create for you to step into that potential. It's an underutilized retention tool. I wish more people leveraged this to— to help with morale, to help with loyalty, but ultimately to help with retention. Because if I see that you see a future in me, I'm going to work hard to see that future come to pass, right? And so I feel like thought leadership, speaking, opportunities for more visibility, whether that's internally or externally. So this doesn't have to be they're speaking at the biggest conference ever. Is there a meeting internally where they can present the deck and you don't have to, right? Is there an internal panel, right? So we were talking about my partner. It's a Black History Month event. Can we put different voices there so that leaders— because we know leaders will be in the room— people who they may not work with on a day-to-day basis at least knows their name, knows their face, knows a little bit about them. Those are very powerful, very, very powerful retention tools that I wish more people would access.

Well, and we're now at the top of the year right now as we record. We're in early January. And as— leaders are sitting down with their direct reports, I think it would be an interesting activity to do is to say, okay, in addition to the day-to-day responsibilities, what doors are we going to open for you and what opportunities for you to build your brand and voice are you going to take on this year? And you don't have to know by specific But by putting that into a plan and making it something that you touch on over the course of the year and say, we're going to find 2 internal opportunities of places for you and we'll find an external place, right? And I'll support you. All of a sudden that changes the dynamics of the conversation and allows a conversation of where would be good places, where do you feel comfortable? And the leader can do a little bit of nudging to move someone to the edge of the comfort zone without pushing them off the cliff into sheer terror, right? Because you don't want someone to go, "What do you mean you want me to speak in Times Square to one of the largest consulting firms in the world?" That's not my first opening act for speaking. Let me try something a little bit smaller before I'm in Broadway, right?

Yeah, yeah. And I think too, it's also a great carrot for development. So you find out what they want to do, and if there are areas in their current performance that are weaker, use that as a, as a way to grow, to be able to do that thing. So if they're not the best public speaker, but they want to, you know, if they have aspirations to speak on a panel one day, what are some things that we can incorporate in their day-to-day work that gives them practice at building that muscle, right? So now it's not just something that's independent of their goals. It's actually— it's together. You're working towards a bigger thing, but you're helping them along the way with small developmental steps. I think because going to performance reviews, people have anxiety. Most people don't want to do reviews. They think it's going to be, you know, getting beaten up, getting told what they didn't do, what they can't get, and all of those things. And so if there's a positive element to that that involves like a future where they are, you know, shining, if that's what they want, or if they're helping other people sign, if that's what they want. I think that's very important.

Well, and to your point, in terms of speaking, it may be a question of instead of speaking, it might be where should we write a piece or where should we put our ideas out? There's a million different ways to get ideas out into the world and be a voice without having to be a literal voice, right?

Absolutely.

And you can even— Like you said, in diffusing some of that tension, stress, and fear for the performance review of the, hey, where would you go to speak or to write? What audience should we speak to, to share an idea that we're not talking to? I'd love to hear your ideas as the employee. Come with a list and let's brainstorm. Because that goes back to that whole, we can't all be active in every community. You're probably going to be surprised when that person comes with a list of here are places we could be talking that we're not. And that goes back to your story of the executive is like, who's Tyler Perry? Yeah, you kind of missed the boat on that one, but that person wasn't on your radar, so you couldn't see the opportunity. It's the same thing here. If you're not part of the community, if you're not aware of the conversations that are going on, you're never going to think to engage there.

And I can picture right now someone who works in engineering listening to this saying, but I don't work in comms. Like, I'm not a comms person, right? I'm not—

I can't—

Right, right. And it's like, that's what makes you even more of an asset because as an engineer, the comms people don't think like you think. And so if you have places that you frequent that the comms people don't frequent and you put together a list of ideas and say, hey, Watchen, I know I'm not in comms, but based on the industry and the trades and the da da da, I think we should pitch here or there. Nobody's going to beat you up about that, right? That unique voice and that unique lens, again, is what makes it an asset. And so don't let the function that you work in stop you from bringing forth ideas because, again, it may not be how the other functions are looking at the space, and that would be an asset to them.

Absolutely. I love that you called that out. Because for example, you might have an engineer who's online with a community of engineers who are, you know, it's a board or something like that, that they're just sharing technical information back and forth about, but it's a hub where engineers come together. Has anybody thought talking engineer to engineer rather than through a comms channel, right? And the people in comms probably don't spend their evenings on in that community don't hear the conversation.

Absolutely. And if you are able to conquer that space, what does that mean for attraction of new talent for your organization, right? If they know that you care enough to spend face time with them or to invest time with them or to talk directly to them when nobody else typically is, that does a lot for your pipeline.

Exactly. And so we've touched on 3 stages, really. The talent attraction, talent retention, and succession plan, right? If you want to have the healthy talent pipeline, if you want people who are ready to step into opportunities when leadership says, "We're going to go this way," you'd much rather have a pipeline of people who understand the culture, who understand the business, rather than have to say, "We can't do that because we don't have the people," or, "We have to go find people who can do this." Absolutely.

Or we don't even know who to tap on. We might think we don't have the people, but we do. We just never cultivated that relationship.

And that goes back to, do you see your people or not? And I think in many ways it begins with carving out that time to understand what each of your team brings. To the team and where their passions are.

And I know that depending on the size of organization that you work in, it may be overwhelming to try to get to know everybody, and you don't have to get to know everybody, right? Again, back to what you were talking about, delegation, right? There are people who know people who know people. So figure out what works best for you, knowing that not getting to know people is not an option, right? Like, you have to get to know people, but what ways are the most efficient, the most effective Can you have your direct reports give you reports on their direct reports? Are there ways that you can do smaller, more intimate gatherings where you get to have conversation, break bread with people that's not necessarily tied to the business, it's tied to getting to know and humanizing the corporate experience or the work experience? How do you get to know and also let people get to know, like, and trust you and not you just being that far away person on the stage that they only see at town hall meetings, right?

It's a two-way relationship.

And so that when you say, watch and I see you, I trust what you're saying. I don't feel like it's just like fluff that you're using to play games with me because we've met before.

Well, there's a trivial way of that fake authenticity of I see you versus being present and listening. And it's one of the reasons why I think from a leadership perspective, emotional intelligence becomes essential for practicing thought leadership and nurturing thought leadership among others. You've got to be able to understand the place your people and your audience are in. And you've got to be able, as we said, check the ego at the door.

And you know what the worst thing is? And I've seen this and I won't give the examples that I'm thinking of because they're— I know what I'm talking about. But there's nothing worse than being a thought leader on stage giving advice and the people who actually work for you are rolling their eyes. Right? Because you don't practice what you preach internally, right? So you are this whiz on business, but the way that you conduct business inside the walls of your organization are like, he doesn't follow that advice, or she doesn't do that, right? So you want to make sure that you are practicing what you're preaching when you are in these thought leadership spaces, and that if you're talking to people about succession planning and grooming and opportunities and retention and all of those things, whatever you're talking about, that you are also doing that work inside the walls of your organization. With the actual people who make it possible for you to sit in those seats on those stages.

Yeah, your thought leadership work personally, let alone the voice of the organization, needs to come from a place of authenticity because it's a component of brand. If the brand promise doesn't live up to the reality, people are gonna, as you said, roll their eyes, walk away, or just grumble and say, that's not worth it anymore.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And there's nothing you can do to change that. But if you do it right, your employees become your, your best brand ambassadors.

Oh, absolutely. You don't have to make it. They will reach, yeah, they will reach audiences, friends, family, communities, and be advocates for you rather than you having to rely on classic and more expensive marketing. If you can't persuade your in-house team who should be aligned with seeing the organization being successful and wanting it to succeed, if you can't sell the vision and the idea to them, you got a problem.

Yeah, you should be a thought leader internally before you go externally. He's seen as a thought leader internally first.

So as we transition here, I want to ask you a question.

Okay.

How did you get into the world of thought leadership?

I think I was voluntold. I don't think it's something that I pursued.

Please share the story.

But so I have often found myself being a first and only. And so a lot of the roles that I've had before, whether I'm the only Black person or I'm the only woman, or before I started my company, I was the youngest person to ever have the role. And so I delivered consistently on work. I, you know, education-wise, I've gotten some of the best education that's possible. But I feel like experience matters more. I've also been in lots and lots of therapy. So my self-awareness is pretty, pretty high up there. And so when we came to opportunities, I'll talk more specifically about when I was at the WNBA team here in Chicago. They knew that I could—

Chicago Sky, right?

Yes. And we were champions of the WNBA. I think it was like 2021. But—

Yeah, but Las Vegas Aces and the Sky had a little bit of a rivalry.

OK. So this— we can edit this out if we need to. I was at the game where the rivalry started.

Oh, awesome.

I was sitting behind where her foot did go out of bounds, but the ref didn't call it. And she hit the 3, and we lost. And since then, I've been like, oh, Vegas. But you know what? I feel like women's sports needs that, right? We need to have—

Right.

—the level of energy that that rivalry kind of awakened in the fan bases. But I love it. But so in my space, you know, sports is a male-dominated industry. I knew a lot about business. So when it was time to talk about the business of basketball or selling, all those things, I could talk about that. And so that's where they saw— my boss saw in me what I didn't necessarily see in myself at that time. But I also knew my lane. So if somebody was asking a conversa— wanted to have a conversation about who we were recruiting the next season, I don't know anything about that. Like, that's not— that's just— I would defer that to somebody who maybe was a little bit more junior on my staff, but who lived and breathed basketball. That's not me. I live and breathe business. I can talk to you about partnerships. I can talk to you about marketing. I can talk to you about talent. But who the point guard is, who's going to— eh, you know? But again, it's the self-awareness that goes with, OK, I don't need to be the person who does everything. I need to make sure that there are enough people on my team, just like a basketball team, people in different positions who could do different things. But essentially, there was a need. I was the highest-ranking woman on the team at the time. And so our CEO, who also did not love the spotlight at all, like at all. He did not want to be on a— that just wasn't his thing. And so he put me in position to be able to speak on the things that he knew I was an expert on.

So it sounds like a combination. You use the term voluntold, but I think it sounds like you could also use you had leaders who consciously chose to shine the spotlight on you. Absolutely.

Absolutely. And I think for him, for Adam, who's the CEO of The Sky, he's very well aware of his strengths and where he feels like he's earned the right to be and not be in this season in his career. And he's been doing it for a long time. He was the face for a long time. He didn't want to do that anymore. He didn't want to be the person putting on the suit and doing all these— he's just like, eh, I want to run the team. I want to run the business. I want to do what I was hired to do. And so he put people in place who could fill in the spots where he no longer desired to fill.

That's fantastic. Thank you for sharing that, Wajah. And I want to ask you one last question here. Okay. And this is one that I want you to think for a moment. Okay. Whose work in your field is one that more people should be aware of? Who should more people be following because of their level of insights?

So I would say Luvvie Ajayi-Jones. She does commentary on— oh, and also Brittany. But Brittany's more political. But Luvvie talks about culture a ton and how we create more inclusive cultures, how we create healthier cultures, how we communicate with each other, how we relate as humans. And so if you have not heard of Luvvie Ajayi-Jones, even though she's a 4-time New York Times bestseller, you should definitely check her out. I think her work and how she approaches just working and people in general One of the things that I talk about all the time is like humanizing the corporate experience. And I think she does that on a cultural level. She's a— I call her a cultural commentator. But Luvvie Ajayi-Jones is someone that I definitely think that is worth putting on your radar if she's not already there.

Fantastic. Watson, thank you very much for joining us today. This has been a great conversation about shining the spotlight, thinking about growing talent and retaining talent.

Thank you so much for having me, Bill.

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