From Basketball to Books | Owen Sammarone | 517

Welcome, welcome, welcome.

This is Peter Winick.

I'm the founder and CEO at Thought Leadership Leverage, and you're joining us on the podcast today, which is Leveraging Thought Leadership. Today, my guest is Owen Sammerone. Owen's a fascinating guy I've just recently met, and he has an interesting backstory. He's got undergrad as basketball at University of Rhode Island, graduated magna cum laude with a Bachelor of Arts in PR and General Business Leadership Studies. Then he was at UConn men's basketball. Any of you in the basketball space know that's kind of mecca for basketball. But what's really interesting is he's been a nerd like me that's been passionate about nonfiction books, and that took him down the path that we're going to talk to today. So let's talk about the jock that's a nerd. So there's a contradiction there, right? Give me the— So how did this book thing happen? What's going on there?

Yeah, absolutely. Well, Peter, thanks for having me. Excited for this. Yeah, most people are like, "How do you go from basketball to books?" And to be honest, it's not a crazy transition as most might think. So yeah, long story short, I was a student manager at University of Rhode Island, and then I was a graduate assistant at UConn under Danny Hurley. I'm a Jersey guy, he's a Jersey guy, so I found that kind of home away from home when I was up in Rhodey. Essentially, the experience was amazing. I was trying to be the youngest GM in the NBA. That was the first goal. And then just started to feel what the life could be like for me. I started seeing what the lives were like for the coaches, and for better or worse, it just became a little bit less attractive for me. But what I became to be really, what I was gravitating towards was Coach's self-development habits and just his day-to-day habits, how he was attacking the day. I would go into his office, he had Ryan Holiday, Tim Ferriss books on his coffee table. He was reading blogs, he was listening to Lewis Howes on podcasts, you know, all these things. I was just a sponge for him. And that really just started this like wave of interest and excitement to essentially just know like who I was yesterday doesn't have to be who I am today, and who I am tomorrow can be whoever the heck I wanted to be. So I was just like super excited that I could just change the life I was living. And what's really interesting about my story is I didn't even play high school basketball. I was a lacrosse player, and somehow I have 2 rings at the Division I level. We ended Trae Young's season my senior year in the March Madness tournament. So I've just created this wild life that like no one ever thought I could possibly do it, which is my message to everyone, that really we can create any opportunity we want. But the reason we got into books was the whole idea of following the books that Coach was reading. And then I just started sharing the books I was reading myself and sharing the takeaways on Instagram and named it Unleash the Knowledge, picked a logo— that's not the logo today, there was an iteration beforehand— and, um, started finding this tribe of readers and people that were just self-development junkies. And then that's grown to— stay there a minute.

So this just goes from You know, you, you observe some, you know, some folks that you admire as avid readers, lifelong learners, et cetera. You model that behavior, you start to do it, you start to embrace it, and you're like, well, might as well share some of this, right? So there's no business plan, no, no strategy, no ulterior motive. Let me just share it and see what happens. And now let's fast forward a couple of years and that's your business now, right? Like, so tell me what it is you do and who you do it for. Because it all came, the origin story's awesome. I love the origin story.

Absolutely. The, the vision was to create a community of readers first and foremost, which I always felt like I lacked, like people that were big thinkers. But then I got to about 30,000 followers. A heart doctor reached out in January 2020 and he was like, hey man, you got 30,000 followers. They seem like they're all readers. I just released my first book. It's kind of like a memoir. Great connection with him. Needless to say, he's from a town nearby me in Jersey, so we just kind of connected on that. I had no idea what to charge. I had no idea what was even going on. So it was a business that popped out of nowhere. We struck a deal for $200, $250. I told him I'll share a couple posts of his book. I'll hype it up or I'll share my takeaways. That really just was the aha moment or the light bulb. That was 3 months prior to COVID happening in March, which was also my last season at UConn. My contract was done as a graduate assistant. It was very serendipitous.

You know, when you, when you talk about COVID so there's things that are in your control and things that are out. Book consumption went through the roof during COVID because how much time you could spend, can you spend locked in the house watching Netflix? So, so there's things that, there's luck and then there's skill, right? That's always how it goes.

Absolutely. It was just, you can't write it up. Like some of the things that I think that happen in our lives that are so interesting or so pivotal to like The life we live today is stuff that you could have never imagined. So that's really how it got going. One guy reached out. I realized it was a business on my hands. And then I left basketball on my own decision. I could have stayed, but it just wasn't for me anymore. Went back home to Jersey, lived with mom, and just started reading a ton of books, creating more content for the reader, the follower, and then started having an outbound approach to reach more authors. And 3 to 3.5 years later, we're still at it doing a couple other fun things. But book promotions have been the core piece of some of the— of most of the business.

No, love it. Love it. So, you know, what's interesting is now it is a vehicle, not the primary vehicle, but it's another tool for an author to have when launching a book and getting it out there. And what's interesting is the publishing industry's been around forever, right? The PR industry's been around forever, the book launch, and there's so many other players there. Yet you created this really quirky, interesting, cool niche that is a, I would say, just another tool in the arsenal for an author to have where, you know, they can pay you to optimize or to promote, you know, an upcoming book to your followers. And I think this is a piece that people don't understand, and it's a very similar strategy to podcasting, is you can go out there as an author and try to find the world. That's really, really, really, really hard. The more effective way is to say, who else has aggregated or put together a large population of people with a higher propensity to like my stuff, right? So, I can— anybody can start an Instagram account. Not everybody can get to the number of followers that you have. Anybody can start a podcast. Not everybody can get an audience, right? So, I think people need to be deliberate and strategic and say, ah, okay, who's done the hard work of building the audience? And all I have to do is be engaging, charming, insightful, whatever, to that— to their audience and respectful to their audience.

Yeah. And you're so right. Obviously you've been in this game longer than I have. And a lot of these principles I don't think have changed. It's just changed the medium of what we're using. Take a Super Bowl commercial, tons of eyeballs, tons of attention. If you have a product for the football fan or the everyday person, that's a great place to plant your message. If you got a book and you want to get it in front of readers, I'm probably a pretty good person that you want to engage with. But then again, so you could buy those audiences. That's a part of the phrasing. Borrowing the credibility or the authority of someone's brand. I mean, you, you, I'm sure you watch the D2C e-commerce, just wave of products on TikTok or Instagram as well. These people have audiences that are ready to buy or interested in beauty products or this product or fitness products. So if you have a company with a product that aligns with that audience, why go out and try to hustle to build your own audience? I mean, sure, you should do that in conjunction, but you should also allocate a budget to just getting it in front of those right eyes. So maybe in the past it was newspapers because everyone was getting a newspaper on their doorstep and everyone was reading the same paper. So you wanted to put the message in front of them. But now it's almost easier today because we have like these subset audiences that we can play from. Like if I, again, if I have a fitness product, I'm going to go find a bunch of CrossFit guys who have a million followers, who I know the people following them are fitness junkies. Like now I know exactly that I'm going to be reaching the right person. So Yeah, it's easier, but it's also harder.

One of the things that's interesting, and you and I talked about it when we spoke a week or two ago, is that a lot of authors, thought leaders, etc., need to get out of their own way as it relates to understanding an audience, right? So many, and maybe it's an age thing, maybe, who knows, right? There's lots of reasons. Oh, my people aren't on TikTok, my people aren't on Instagram, my people are only on LinkedIn. And I think you have to test the waters to say, really, is that really true? Right? And yes, painting with a broad, you know, sort of a broad brush, Instagram tends to be more visual. Instagram tends to skewer a little younger. It tends to skewer towards fitness, health, beauty, whatever. But guess what? There are people out there that are looking to read a good book, to look for a good book. And there are fewer people like you that have aggregated that subset on a platform that's not traditionally, I don't know, known for thought leadership, shall we say. Versus others. I think there's exceptions to all those rules.

If you're enjoying this episode of Leveraging Thought Leadership, please make sure to subscribe.

If you'd like to help spread the word about our podcast, please leave a 5-star review at ratethispodcast.com/LTL and share it with your friends. We're available on Apple Podcasts and on all major listening apps, as well as at thoughtleadershipleverage.com/podcast.

Absolutely. And I think the other big piece too is building that trust. Like for someone to go buy your book, they got to know that you're the person who's the expert on that type of material. So a lot of people will try out these social platforms and they're going to try to speak to everyone, which reaches nobody, and they're going to give up after a few weeks or a few months. You really got to have a deliberate plan to stick with something for 6 months or a year, stick to the same messaging to be reaching those folks.

So stay there for a second.

Stay there for a second.

No. Oh, and so I think that's a critical piece in that because we're able to measure everything literally in real time, I can put a post and then go there and see in 5 minutes, look how many people connected with it. In an hour, I see all the data, whatever. But there's this sort of counterintuitiveness to in order to be successful on a social platform, which is all about the dopamine hit and the immediate gratification, whatever, you have to play the long game. You have to have a 6-month plan. And I've seen far too many people, you know, oh yeah, I tried that. How long did you try that? Oh, I did 3 posts or I did it for a month. Or they go on, you know, 17 times a day for a month, like, like obsessive and then nothing. And I like your thinking, not only because it aligns with mine, but, but, but I think it's right. That you have to be patient. You have to say, you know, this is a 6-month play to build that awareness, build that engagement, and then get to the call to action. We can't get to that call to action immediately for everything. One post on Instagram doesn't equal 1,000 book sales. It just doesn't happen that way.

Right. And, and, you know, I'm a big, like, I love reading startup stories from the early days. Yeah. And even my own growth on Instagram, like it was probably 3 months where it was, you know, 0 to 10K. It was, it was a, you know, decent subset of time for me to really get things going. But then you hit that compound effect. Factor. You hit that tipping point and then things start rolling and rolling. I think the other thing to note too is everyone kind of sees the Grant Cardones or the Gary Vs or the Tony Robbins and sees like all their stuff. I'll be the first to say it. One, they're obsessed and they're working on this every single day. Secondly, they have a full team of marketers and social media people behind them helping them create content. But third, they are pumping an obscene amount of paid dollars into boosting their posts that you've never seen before. So everyone kind of sees their post, oh my gosh, it's organic. They built this million-person followers.

Well, but, but add the fourth piece of it. But add the fourth though. Each and every one of them have a portfolio of products, offerings, and services that are very, very, very high margin. Books aren't. So part of the rub for a book for an author is however you look at that, whether it's time, money, energy, whatever, at best, whether you're self-published or whatever, you're gonna make a few dollars a book. Usually the book is not the thing. It's the pre-thing to the next thing, but you have to, you know, you, you can't spend hundreds of dollars on a customer acquisition cost per every book sale of 1995. So there's some math problems there as well. And I think that, uh, you're right. When people look at a Gary or a Grant or a, or a Tony, first of all, they're at it for years. They have probably invested tens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars over the years building that brand. The team that you talk about, some of them are dozens to hundreds. Supporting those people, right? So don't compare yourself with that. I'm gonna have people all the time say, oh yeah, I want to be like Tony Robbins. Okay, you realize he's at this for 40 years? Like, okay, you're in month 3. So that is like me going out to buy a basketball today and comparing myself to LeBron. Like, it's just not gonna happen. Right?

Right. Yeah. It's a simple chapter 1 comparison to chapter 95. We want to go down the book route. And I don't know if you're going this route, but it's a great point that you're making that These guys don't even care for the book sales. Like Gary Vee's pushing— I mean, he did the whole thing with his recent book, the 12 and a Half Whatever, so you could sell those NFTs. Massive project. Tony Robbins, he just wants you into his $5,000, $10,000, $15,000 business mastery or destiny for love. Yeah, like these guys, like, it's a big mindset shift that I— some authors already get it and I love it and we do great work together. Others, it's kind of a conversation we have to have. But if anyone's listening here, Listen, we want to sell books. That's still a focus, but the book, like you said, is the first— it's the first step. It's the first tool. It's a vehicle. You really want to see this further beyond the book. You want to see yourself as a thought leader.

For 99.5% of authors, the book cannot be the tail that wags the dog. You have to have that strategy in place and the business model in place to say, ah, yes, of course I want to sell books. Yes, I'm proud of the book. Yes, it's a high-quality book. Don't fall for one of these book in an hour nonsense. I mean, you have to put a high-quality book out there, But one of the outcomes of the book is to build a business. What is that business? Is it consulting? Is it digital? Is it advisory? Is it a series of apps, assessments, whatever it is? How does one lead to the other? That's a strategy issue. And too many authors sort of ignore that or start thinking about that after the book is published, which is a little bit too late. So before we wrap, I just wanna spend a minute or two because I think I'd be remiss if I didn't say, okay, so give us a few tips. I don't want the 3 hacks because I'm not a believer in that, but Someone's out there now, they're an author and they're thinking, geez, okay, I kind of get this. This is interesting. What might I do tomorrow to start myself on the road to being successful, however I define that, on social?

Yeah, I think first and foremost, you got to be really clear on who you're trying to reach. I think you really need to understand who your audience is, that ideal reader. A lot of people, again, it's for better or worse, they're telling me their reader is everybody. And sure, maybe a ton of people can read your book, but let's get a little specific and just have an understanding of who this person is. What are their psychographics, pains, problems, goals, desires? What, what job are they in? Are they a middle manager in a SaaS company who's looking to grow their book of business? Like, let's get a little bit more specific and then have a diligent plan to kind of go find those people. It's super easy to find those business folks on LinkedIn. You can just search it on the search engine and start kind of connecting with those folks. So the first piece is really to find that ideal reader. I call it reader research. Secondly is to really have a plan of what platform suits you best. I'm not going to say get on every platform. If you're a visual person, you like being on camera, then maybe a YouTube, Instagram, or TikTok's good for you. But honestly, my message in the past 6 months has been go to LinkedIn. I really think LinkedIn's a powerful platform. It's written-based, it's also visual-based, and you can legitimately transact on the business or book calls. I mean, I've done it, you've done it. It's definitely doable. So I would get clear on where are my potential customers, but also find that like 1,000 true fans. If you know, if you've ever talked about the Kevin Kelly famous blog, but it's not about finding the million people to sell to, just find the 1,000 people that could, you know, really latch to your content and then ideally get them into an email list. Because that's the other piece to really discuss, you know, at length. We won't do it here, but to post on social, it's really just to capture the massive net to get a bunch of fish in. But then you really want to get people into your email list where you can nurture them or stay more in touch touch with them or share more, um, you know, actionable advice. So, you know, share a freebie, share free—

I was gonna say, beautiful thing about the email list, right, is, is— so let's say you go fishing on LinkedIn, for lack of a better term, right? And now you're getting people in that email. You have control, because even whenever you post on LinkedIn, there's the statistical odds of the right people seeing it at the right moment are still pretty slim. You have control over your newsletters and your communications there. And I also think there's this habit that authors could fall into of they go silent and then they need something, right? A book comes out, this comes out, whatever. And then they're like, ah, they're all over you. They're everywhere. Versus if you're constantly dripping high-quality content and sharing what you're doing, whatever, in between the times and you need them, you have to be generous and be giving your ideas and your stuff away so that when you need something, you know, it's either 5 or 10 gives to an ask, right? And too many authors flounder. Definitely. I don't hear from you at all. And then all of a sudden you're asking me for a bunch of stuff and I'm like, wow, that's just a little icky. I don't like that. You know?

And, and the true, in my opinion, the true constant between people like a Tim Ferriss, a James Clear, a Ramit Sethi is they have a large email list that they, Robin Sharma, that they build. They've been building this email list for years and years and years.

Yes, they're on social, but not just build it, but, but I think the other thing is you can build it, but you need to consistently connect and communicate.

Yes.

Those people via emails, monitor your open rates. Everything's a test, right? So you mentioned before, if you're comfortable with video, do video. I would say the opposite. If you're not comfortable with video, do video. Why? Because there's a subset of audience that would like to see you on video. Get over what you might perceive as the awkwardness of it, or I don't like the sound of my voice, or whatever, whatever. But I think you need to test other modalities, and you'd be surprised to see the response or the difference in the metrics on things like open rates and click-throughs and all that sort of fun stuff.

Definitely. No, I could stand by that too. I think it all comes back down to trust. You got to build trust. The way you could do that is by being a person of value, showing up every day or consistently. I mean, a guy like Ramit Sethi, I'm getting 8 emails from him a day. Now, he's got the Netflix special and he's got the whatever. I read his book. His book is good and I trust the guy's finance knowledge. Is he a finance guy? Not at all. He's a marketing psychology master's student from Stanford. He's a marketer at the end of the day. But I'm listening to him about my target fund, retirement funds, and et cetera. It's incredible. So I think, you know, that's the over— that's the umbrella. You're trying to build trust and you could do it through a couple ways, but I would say pick a platform that suits you, understand who your reader is, be there every day, but then move them into an email list and don't let the email list go dry. Like you're saying, stay in touch because you're gonna need them. And when you need them, hopefully you're just not coming out of the woodworks, you know, after 6 months of being dark, you're actually been present.

Well, this has been great. I appreciate your time so much. Knowledge and information hero and love it. Thank you so much for spending some time with us today.

Thanks for having me, Peter.

To learn more about Thought Leadership Leverage, please visit our website at thoughtleadershipleverage.com. To reach me directly, feel free to email me at peter@thoughtleadershipleverage.com. And please subscribe to Leveraging Thought Leadership on iTunes or your favorite podcast app to get your weekly episode automatically.