From Consulting to Content: Turning 40 Years of Wisdom Into a Book | Jeff Fierstein and Ric Shriver | 659

And welcome, welcome, welcome. This is Peter Winick. I'm the founder and CEO at Thought Leadership Leverage, and you're joining us on the podcast today, which is Leveraging Thought Leadership. Today we've got two for the price of one. So we've got two guests who are co-authors and co-founders of Leadership Whack-a-Mole. So we've got Rick Shriver and Jeff Fierstein. So I could go into their bios, but they're actually pretty long and intense, and I'd rather just chat with them directly than tell you how wonderful they are, but they are wonderful. So anyway, welcome aboard, gents.

All right.

Thank you, Peter.

So give me, give me the short version of maybe let's start with the, maybe on the personal side, how you two connected to go down this, this path together.

Yeah. Rick, why don't you tell that story?

Well, we actually connected the first time, probably when was that, Jeff? 42 years ago when I, uh, visited his facility up outside of Chicago. I was working at the corporate office for Hospital Corporation of America and asked to go up and visit the hospital that he was located in. He was the head of education, training, and development in that facility. And so I think he says we had lunch. I don't remember that lunch. I'm not exactly what it had. I think he, I think he was doing the beer steamed thing instead of the beer steamed thing. That's just my thought. But, uh, Anyway, we, uh, we wound up working together at the corporate office about a year later. Jeff moved to Nashville and, um, we wound up working together for a year and then we restructured a little bit and Jeff became my boss.

Wow.

Okay. Boss.

Yeah.

He was a tough boss, but he understood my frailties and helped me develop my performance. So we worked together for about 4, 4 and a half years.

Um, right.

But he reorganized again and, um, I wound up doing some consulting work. Brought Jeff in to help me out with that as he had moved out to Phoenix. And a couple times Jeff and I worked together on a couple projects where I was the project lead, but we've maintained our friendship for all the years and shared many stories and opportunities together. So that's, that's my side of the story.

Peter, if I can just throw something in.

I was going to say, you get a rebuttal. So there you go.

Over the 40 years that we've worked together, we've both worked internally and externally. In organization development and human resources. And it's been really interesting because we've had a chance over all that time to really talk about leadership and organization. We've talked about our own experiences together. We've talked about places that we've worked and people that we've worked with. So we've got quite a history that led to writing the book.

Yeah. So, you know, one of the things that I'll, that I'll just sort of comment on there is in this world of thought leadership, I find it's pretty common that the relationships endure the roles, meaning, hey, we started, he was my boss, or this person was a client or a vendor or whatever. And just the titles change and the dynamics change. And it could be, you know, he worked for you and then I worked for him and then, or we started this thing together. And I think the reality is that when you're exposed to another person's thinking, their way of ideas, the way they operate, Not that the roles don't matter, they matter in the context of the scenario, but you're like, that's somebody I want to do stuff with, whatever stuff is.

Right.

And I've seen that so many times where, you know, the origin stories where, like I said, whether they're coworkers or someone was someone's boss or whatever. So I just wanted to point that out because it happens more often than you think.

Yeah. Yeah. And, um, I never planned on writing a book, but Rick called me up a couple of years ago and said, you know, we've got so much experience together. We've seen so many successes and setbacks. We really ought to write a book about it. So I thought, uh, okay, I'll, I'll let him think we're gonna write a book and eventually he'll forget about it. But no, we, we actually did.

So is that giving him credit or blame for getting the book?

This'll void its credit.

Yeah, maybe, maybe.

Yeah.

So what was, so what was the spark? To get the book done? Just, hey, we should, we should have a format to put our stuff in, or what was the, the genesis of that?

Well, I probably had the original thought, and it, then that thought came across my mind probably 10, 12 years ago. It were more of a kind of an emotional desire I had to catalog and document some of the, some of the challenges that I went through personally. And that's what I originally shared with Jeff. But as we got to talking about it, As Jeff just said, we shared so many common experiences and challenges. Our thought process kind of moved to, okay, let's talk about those challenges. And we both have enough experience and enough knowledge in this area that we could put together, I think, something that would help leaders in any number of different businesses at all different levels really access what I, what I like to call a field guide, a resource. Dealing with those challenges in a practical way. And I think that's the other watchword here for us is that, you know, we dealt with these things. We know what works, what doesn't work. And so we were able to document some of those stories and challenges, of course, changing the names and faces to protect the industry. But, but then to be able to, to outline some current thinking in terms of advanced thought about how to deal with those challenges. But then in reality, how we approach some of those things what worked, what didn't work, and our conclusions about maybe addressing those challenges in a, in a, in a more effective way.

So writing a book, A, it's, it's, it's difficult. They often say it's a lonely task, but when you're doing it collaboratively is different. How did you come up with the, I would, let's, let's call it sort of the, the division of responsibilities, the rules of engagement, the how are we gonna do this? 'Cause it's not gonna be every, I write a sentence and then you write a sentence, right? It's not that, like, how did you divide and conquer the deliverable part of this? 'Cause there's work that needs to be done. The concepts I get, but like, how'd you actually break it apart?

Yeah, we, we kind of jumped in, I, I think, and we started writing about different topics and, uh, as we went along, we got more organized, uh, made some decisions about what should be in the book and how it should be laid out. And basically we, we set up this format where, uh, one of us would be the client, the other one would be the consultant. And so, uh, just for example, Rick would write something as the client, and then I would respond as a consultant to what he had written. And so it worked that way, and we really liked it because it just was a continuation of the conversations that we had been having for 40 years.

So I, I wanna touch on that. So it's, there's sort of a, a role play piece, and I'm assuming the scenarios that you were talking about were things that you both knew 'cause you were both involved in, in, in the, the actual events.

For the most part. I mean, there were some, Jeff, there were some situations that Jeff was exposed to in his consulting capacity that I was not directly involved in, but there were common themes.

But I like that role. So you, you're looking at, so here's a situation. One of you looks at it through the role of the client. One of you looks at it through the role of the expert, because those two perspectives, and I think it's kind of interesting in this world, is, are often pretty different, right? So the consultant comes in and says, well, it's obvious that this is what's broken, right? And then the client's looking, they're going, no, no, it's fine that our, you know, turnover's through the roof or our profits. No, no, no, it's nothing to see here. That's all good, right? You know?

So I'm like, from my perspective, it reflected our styles too. Jeff is very much a highly analytical, very structured individual. I discovered that early on in our working relationship. I sometimes can get a little off the wall. On the DISC scale, I'm a high I. You know, I tend to be out there with some creative thoughts and Jeff has to reel me in from time to time. But it was a good relationship because as a client, you know, I would come up with these thoughts or ideas and Jeff was always good about challenging those and saying, yeah, I'll get you back down to earth. Which worked well in the relationship that we had.

Very cool.

So now you get through the hurdle and the challenge and the blood, sweat, and tears of writing a book, and now it's gotta be released into the wild, right? So just when we thought writing the book is the hard part, right?

Oh yeah.

The next part, tell me, 'cause, and this I think is critical because writing a book is so hard, right? And you know, it could take so long and you're always questioning, did, should I have done it this way or that way? Is this would've been a better story, whatever. Then it's done, right? So you hit send or publish or whatever. Now you got— is a whole different role that you have, right? In terms of being somewhat promotional and, and, and the marketing and, and all that. So what's that journey been like? Because I think a lot of authors don't think about the other side of after it's written.

Here's the role I'm playing. That's right. Yeah. And, and we did think about that. We've done a lot of self-education. During the time we were writing the book. And we realized that the real key is not the book, it's the marketing. We have a great book, but unless people know about it, it's not going to reach their desks. So we've learned a lot on our own about marketing, marketing through social media, marketing through email, marketing. Well, here's a podcast that I think is a great example of how people can spread the word about their thinking or even a book. So yeah, a lot of self-learning and there are so many people out there, as you probably know, Peter, that have their own ideas about how to market it. And we've gone down a few blind alleys.

If you're enjoying this episode of Leveraging Thought Leadership, please make sure to subscribe. If you'd like to help spread the word about our podcast, Please leave a 5-star review at ratethispodcast.com/LTL and share it with your friends. We're available on Apple Podcasts and on all major listening apps, as well as at thoughtleadershipleverage.com/podcast. So stay there for a minute, Jeff, because I, you know, I like the idea of starting with sort of that beginner's mind saying, hey, We've never marketed a book before. Let, let's learn how to do that. Right. Let's figure that out. And then you go and it's not the world is flat, the world is round. There's probably 32 perspectives or whatever. So how do you, how do you synthesize that? How do you process that as a trial and error? Like what are some of the things that you did that you wouldn't do again? And what are the things that are surprising that like, wow, that thing that sounded like maybe silly is really effective.

Well, you know, one of the things we discovered early on is that while we thought we had a very creative title, and I think the concept behind it still makes a lot of sense, the whole notion of the whack-a-mole game that, you know, you hit one thing and 14 other things pop up. Just the whole open systems, holistic organization perspective. But unfortunately, when a book goes out on, for example, Amazon, and people are doing keyword searches, they're not they're not gonna, they're not gonna type in whack-a-mole games.

And so, well, but I, but I would push back and argue there's good and bad to that, right? So nobody's Googling, I need a book called whack-a-mole, right? Unless they're playing whack-a-mole, whatever, right? So, so on that standpoint, I would agree that would be, let's call that a negative, whatever, that might be a challenge. But if I go down the path of looking up books in the space, then it's a differentiator in that it stands out because there aren't 87 books on the whack-a-mole theory of leadership. So that's a balancing act, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think we thought that, didn't we, Jeff? We were kind of hoping that's where people would get to is, and we did a lot with keyword searches. You know, we did the, the marketing campaigns in Amazon with the KDP keyword searches and spent, spent a lot of money, haven't gotten a lot of results with that. But we've also then recognized that we need to start making these connections We're talking to you, we're doing the podcast, we're reaching out to people that we know in our discipline, trying to connect with them. We're gonna be looking at a potential conference coming up early in the fall.

Right.

And so hopefully make it a presentation there. But it's a, it's a long—

stay with that outreach piece because I think what you, you tapped into there is critical.

Yeah.

There's a school of thought that's, well, we gotta market this book, so it's gotta go out to the universe, right? Strangers, people that don't know us, do whatever. And to me, that seems so silly and ridiculous as a first bite of the apple because you both at this for 40 years. I'm assuming you might have come across some people over your careers that might like you, that might admire you, that might respect you, right? And most people don't think of flipping the typical SEO thing because SEO by definition means I'm trying to find a stranger to come my way versus how do I deliberately and strategically target my network to say, hey, we wrote a book. Like, you know, when I have— I'm the recipient of that, I'm excited for that person. Like, I'm like, I want to help them. I want to spread the word a little bit. So how did that— what was the reception to that messaging?

You know, Jeff, you've had some good experiences with that.

Yeah, we actually started out working with friends and relatives and people in our networks to let them know about the book and to ask them to spread the word. And then, uh, we, we've looked at a number of different methods for doing the marketing. We've tried, uh, we're still doing the social media, which is getting us some benefit. We're now getting into email, which we think will be much more effective. And, uh, we're reaching out to people that we know or people that we've been led to in universities, uh, where they might be able to use the book. In corporate entities where they might be able to, or might want to, actually use the book for their own training. So we're, we're spreading out and we're trying a number of different things that we, we hope and expect will be productive.

So how do you get over— a challenge underneath that for some, not all, is they get that. That's a rational approach, right? I'm going to go after my network, et cetera. But then when it comes down to it, there's anxiousness or reluctance or, oh, I don't want to be salesy. I don't want like, ooh, this does like whatever. And they can't kind of get out of their own way enough to hit send or pick up that phone or do that thing. Was that a challenge for either of you?

Yes, it was. And actually we're both doing a lot more what you are calling selling, where we're going out to people and actually selling. Not necessarily an individual book, but like I mentioned before, selling opportunities to train other folks.

So how did you get over the hurdle? Because again, for some it's second nature, for others it's like, ooh, I've never had to do that. I'm, you know, I'm the academic or I'm the writer. I'm the, you know, not that they feel cheesy, it's just an unknown domain. It's still either, how do you do that? Or I've, you know, selling has a bad connotation.

Yes. Yes. Peter Winick, in all the years that I did consulting as an independent consultant, one of the difficulties I had was in selling. But what I found with the book is I believe in it so much, and I believe that it has so much potential for people to learn and to improve in their leadership skills. That's really getting me over the hurdle of being able to pick up the phone and call somebody. And, and sell.

You know what? That's the million-dollar answer. And it's a lot. I give a version of that advice to a lot of my clients saying, you wrote the book. Yes. How much time and energy did it take you? Oh my God. Months, years, thousands and thousands and thousands of hours. Do you believe in it more than anything else? I'm like, okay, you have a responsibility then to shepherd it, to evangelize it, to get it out there. Not go asking your friends for money to buy your granddaughter's Girl Scout cookies. Like, that's kind of annoying, right? But like, I love the way that you frame that, Jeff, is that you know that in your heart of hearts, when you get that book in the hands of the right people and they read it, they're gonna get far more value than the couple of bucks they pay for the book by being exposed to these ideas and stories.

I agree. Yes.

And then I think a little positive reinforcement, you know, little wins is what I always say, right? You know, do that a couple of times. As we start to, to wrap here, what are the biggest surprises now that you're on the other side of this, you're more in the marketing mode, good, bad, or ugly that, that you've had in terms of trying to get the book out into the world?

Well, I think, you know, one of the things I didn't realize is just how many books there are out there and what that competition looks like and, and the varying quality of some of those books. I mean, there are all kinds of people that think they have good ideas, what could be put in print and distributed. But I, but I had no idea just how big that, that field was. So when you get a ranking, for example, on Amazon and you're not past the 2 million mark, people go, what? That can't be the case. But there are lots of, and fewer than 1% of the population actually ever writes a book. And that's surprising too. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Jeff, and for you, Jeff?

For me, I think it's been all of the energy, the effort, the, and, and the love that went into putting this book together. And when the book was done, I, I didn't expect to kind of crash from having it done. It was completed. And so now we needed to jump into the marketing. And so the whole routine, it was very new for me and very unique for me.

Right.

And very challenging too.

No, I love, I, I love that because I think there's, sort of a couple of, I call 'em not crash points, but okay, the manuscript's done.

Yeah.

Wow. Let's celebrate. Then it's like, okay, here's the next journey. Let's start marketing. That, that's never quote complete. You know, when a manuscript's done, that is, that's complete, done. Can't be undone. Right. When do you finish marketing your book? I would say probably sometime after you're dead. Right. Because at some level, you know, books are not seasonal. It's not like, you know, the florist is probably pretty lonely the day after Valentine's Day, right? You don't have that phenomenon with a book and the degree or the volume by which you're in that mode changes. But I would argue, particularly with your sort of mindset around it, you'll probably never stop and you'll probably never want to stop exposing and evangelizing those ideas.

Yeah, I think one of the things that I realized is that, and both Jeff and I are pretty much retired from our formal roles in business and industry consulting. Is that this keeps our minds alive, keeps us invested in and engrossed in those things that really we were passionate about in our separate capacities. Every week we're writing blogs out on our website. Good, good articles. Jeff wrote one this week. It's awesome. Check it out. It's, you know, talk about top of the line thinking, but it's all about the whole notion of holistic thinking and suboptimization. And so we're challenging each other with that. And hopefully we're going to start getting some connections and people are gonna start recognizing this as a real resource for them.

Yeah.

It's a marathon, not a sprint. That's what I—

That's right.

That's right.

Yeah. Great chatting with you both today and I appreciate the transparency and the passion and wish you all the best. Thanks so much, guys.

All right.

Thank you, sir.

All right, Peter, take care.

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