Simplifying Complex Ideas Using Thought Leadership | Jeffrey Wheatman

Welcome, welcome, welcome. This is Peter Winick. I'm the founder and CEO at Thought Leadership Leverage, and you are joining us on the podcast today, which is Leveraging Thought Leadership. Today, my guest is Jeff Wheatman. He's a cyber risk evangelist. So he is regarded as a foremost expert in guiding public sector clients and Fortune 500 companies in connection with their cyber risk, which is obviously a big deal today. There's a whole bunch of other interesting things in his bio that I'm going to ignore because he's sitting here and I'd rather just talk to him. So hey, Jeff, how are you?

I am doing well, Peter. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, somebody else wrote my bio. It's all true, but they definitely make everything look much more interesting than it has been to live it, frankly.

Well, you should read it. You'd probably be impressed with yourself.

You know what? My wife wrote it for me. I'm sure I sound very impressive.

There you go. So let me ask you this. So, you know, cyber is big, cyber risk is big, cybersecurity is big, et cetera, et cetera. And sort of snarkily, I'll say, so what, right? You know, meaning from a thought leadership perspective, because there's lots of people doing what you do and it's a market that's growing and all that. Let's take this down this sort of path of thought leadership. How are you and have you and do you plan to effectively use thought leadership to stand out from the crowd?

Yeah, so it's a great question. It's actually been a core of what I've really been doing for, for a long time. And I think a lot of it is we have to take the things that happen and that we do in cyber and in third-party risk in this sort of all this landscape, and we need to turn that into language that the business cares about, right? In a nutshell, business executives care about 3 things: money coming in, money going out, and if something bad happens, who's going to take the blame for that. So we need to take all the things within cybersecurity and sort of contextualize that. So like, as a very quick example, we know ransomware is a big problem. We know that ransomware in your third-party ecosystem, your supply chain, is a big problem. But if you go to your business folks and say, hey, we are worried about ransomware in our suppliers, they go, okay, whatever. But if you go to them and say, look, if they get hit with ransomware, they're down for a week based on what our business executives are telling us, We're down for 2 weeks. You folks okay with that? And generally they're not gonna be okay with that. So then we can start to have that business-anchored discussion rather than a bunch of technical people stuff that most people don't care about, frankly.

So how are you and the organization using thought leadership? And let's sort of map the use of thought leadership against sort of maybe traditional sales pipeline, awareness, a prospect qualifying? Do you think about it in those terms, or how do you— what's your plan?

So it's interesting you asked that. I don't think about it in that terms because I've never been a salesperson. I've always been a management consultant kind of, okay, uh, resource. So what I always do is I always sort of work backwards and say, okay, so what, what are your business goals? Like, what are your hopes, dreams, and aspirations? Then let's talk about what the dependencies are, and then we can talk about the potential impact. So as third-party risk, expanded ecosystem supply chain risk, as an example, we may be doing a perfect job doing security, but our partners, we don't know what they're doing. So we need to understand that so that we can then go to our enterprise risk team, our executive leadership, and help them understand all of this stuff falls together under this big giant risk umbrella. So how do we then go about balancing investment, right? The need to run the business with the need to protect the business. We're hearing from a lot of executives— I'm sure you're hearing this too— that with the economy potentially turning, although who knows now, people are willing to accept more risk. Well, how do we build that in, and how do we then go out and—

give me a specific example then. So I understand that, but give me a specific example of where thought leadership comes in? Is it you going out at conferences and speaking? Is it, you know, original research? Is it writing and commenting? How do people know that you and the firm can punch above your weight because you're smart by observing the thought leadership that you're involved in?

Right. So I'm a big believer in focusing on business value, and then all the other stuff comes from there. So what I've been doing a lot of— so I just got back from Toronto I did two presentations at a CISO conference. I didn't talk about BlackKite at all, right? I talked about how you can communicate with executives that don't know anything about IT. I talked about how you can understand where your risk is within your third-party ecosystem.

So stay there for a minute though, because I want to dissect a couple of things you said. So you didn't talk about BlackKite at your company. Most people have been trained or think they've been trained to say, "Oh, if I'm going to a conference, I've gotta deliver the infomercial on why Blackkite is the greatest company ever and we have offices here and here's our logo page." And like nobody cares. That's when people take out their phones during a, you know, during your speech or go to the restroom or go grab another cup of coffee. So I love the, and this is where I was trying to get to that thought leadership of, you know, how do you effectively communicate to non-technical people? Like, okay, that's a universal piece. That if you can give someone a nugget or 2 or 3 and say, well, this guy Jeff's pretty smart, like I dig it. Oh, by the way, what does he do? Like you almost intentionally bury the lead and it's counterintuitive, but it's more impactful because I'm sure, you know, you just went to Toronto. How many folks came up after you and said, oh, tell me more, could we grab a coffee or how might you help?

Tons. And what's funny and you nailed it, someone came up to the booth and said, that was a great talk. I don't know what you guys do. Can you tell me more?

Right.

And that was— that's the value. And when I came on board here, I told them I'm not going to go out and be a walking, talking commercial. That's not what I do. I want to help.

But I would argue that you are.

I would argue—

and I don't mean this— I would argue that you are, but you're doing it your way. You're doing it in a more authentic, less icky, don't feel like I need to take a shower kind of— like, I want to share great ideas and thinking. With this population that can be helpful. And I know good things will happen, right? Like, like, it's not, you know, rainbows and unicorns. You're in front of the right group, giving the right message to get people to lean in. And I'm sure there were 6 or 8 or 10 other presenters that week or that, that weekend at that event, right? How many of them took the path that you took versus were more self-reporting?

Every other vendor puts a marketing person on stage.

Got it.

That's— yeah, but I love that. Yeah, again, back to that. Yeah, the, the thought leadership. So here, here's something that I've been talking to people about. So people talk about vendor risk management, third-party risk management, supply chain risk management, and I said, you know what, it doesn't matter what you call it. You have risk because you do business with other people. Let's look at what that risk is, and you can call it whatever you want. And it's getting people to think differently about the problem. We talk to people in the US federal government as an example. They don't know anything about third-party risk management. They know supply chain risk management. But unless you know who's in the audience and who you're talking to, you know, there were people public and private where I just came from. So, you know, I think that's just one small thing and it's not even brilliant, right? It's just let's take the things we know and compartmentalize them so that it actually makes more sense and lands with the widest range of audiences, right? We know good movies are the ones that hit your heartstrings and then maybe there's some action and some characters. So let's hit the widest range audience. And to me, that's what thought leadership comes down to, right? Can you say something short, pithy, and easy to understand that makes people go, hmm, never thought about that before. And would it hit the widest range?

So we talked about— If you're enjoying this episode of Thought Leadership Leverage, please make sure to subscribe. If you'd like to help spread the word about our podcast, please leave a 5-star review at ratethispodcast.com/LTL and share it with your friends. We're available on Apple Podcasts and on all major listening apps, as well as at thoughtleadershipleverage.com/podcast. You know, a conference, an event that you just went to and gave a good example there. Give me examples, if you could, of other modalities, because that's one modality, right? There's lots of other places that those same ideas could live, whether it's video or blogs or Where else do you put your thought leadership out there to get in front of the people that matter to you?

Social media obviously is, is one of those venues. LinkedIn is really sort of the de facto business one. And, um, I try every day to put out one of my own ideas, and then I also try to comment and support other people's ideas. So, hey, somebody posted a cool link. Oh, you know what? That's interesting. Have you thought about this implication?

So let's stay with that other piece because I love that. I love that because most people think, wow, this is a lot of work. I gotta come up with all these ideas. I've gotta create all this stuff. I've gotta write, I've gotta this, I've gotta that. And I think the reality is if you think about this a little bit differently, if you say, wait a minute, I know who the client base is or the potential client base is that I'm trying to reach, and I know who they are and I know what they think and how they think, and I know who else they follow. You could elevate your brand by commenting and people think, really? And it's like, actually some of the more interesting conversations, particularly on LinkedIn, happen underneath the posting. Someone can put up a post and as long as we're mindful and respectful, every, every now and then people get stupid. It's not a place for that. But if you can be really thoughtful in your response, it could be, you're almost hijacking the audience and the value, right, of that engagement. And I think people underestimate 'cause it's far easier to go in there, read an article, takes you 2, 3 minutes and go, "Ah, I have an opinion on that." Right?

Well, you know what they say about opinions, everybody's got one.

No, I have a good opinion that might be valuable to the community that I serve.

No, but I agree. And I think sometimes your opinion can go counter to the original post. Sure. And I think it's okay to do that To your point though, you don't want to get snarky. And yes, unfortunately I've seen a lot of that. You know, people go, ooh, this is a dumb idea. Okay, you may be correct, but what's your idea that's better, right? You can't just say that.

Well, and I think that's exactly right. I think that you don't need to just, you know, hey, you know, I think some of the dumbest comments are, that's awesome, I agree, wonderful. Like, okay, that doesn't show any thought or insight. So whether you agree or not isn't really the point. If you disagree, do it respectfully. And say, actually, you know, I hear what you're saying, so-and-so, whoever wrote this. I have a little bit of a different take, and here's why. So I think X is a better way to handle that because I've seen it A, B, C, and D. That's a fine way to have, you know, a civil discourse. Remember those? Remember when a civil discourse was sort of a—

I vaguely have some recollection that those used to exist.

So I love the commenting, and I love that you also have a target for frequency. I want to put out one new idea a day.

Yeah, that's my target. I, to be honest, I don't always hit it.

That's okay.

But we, we try to get out there. And, you know, I know through my career I've met so many people, and so many of them have great ideas, and I'm trying to get those ideas shared too. So not even just commenting, but, hey, you know, my friend so-and-so just posted this really cool thing. They're not connected to a lot of people I am. So instead of— everybody hits the like button, and that's great, but that's not—

that's kind of lazy.

Yeah, I'll pass that across and go, hey, My friend just put this up. I think it's really cool. Let's talk about it. Yeah, that's valuable as well.

So let me go a little bit of a different direction. So you're posting a lot, you know who your, your audience is, so you know what they care about. You're not posting about, oh, I just had a great, you know, veal parm at a wonderful Italian restaurant last night. Nobody cares. Maybe your friends care, right? How are you evaluating the post that you've created to give you insight on what you should do more of and less of. Because I always look at every time, I think you have to have a mindset, this is my opinion, that every time you put something out from a thought leadership perspective, other than a book, that's a heavy lift. It's just an experiment, right? It's just, you know, some of you, if you're putting out that quantity of ideas, some of them are gonna be crap and that's okay. But what's your system and processes to learn from what resonated or resonates from the things you put out in the world?

So it started off very ad hoc, to be honest. But over my— so I've been in my role now for 10 months. So over that time, I'm starting to figure out sort of what works. I think some of it's a total wild card though. I've posted stuff that I think is nothing and a bunch of people engage. And then I post something and go, man, this is the smartest thing I've said all year, and you get nothing. But I look, you know, I look to see whether other people are commenting.

Sure.

You know, are there any ads there? And then on the back end, I can actually find out from our marketing people who's clicking through to the website looking me up. But truthfully, Peter, the best way that I see that it's working is I get people looking at my profile, I get people following me, and I get people offering to connect. And that to me is the best judge, right? Because I want to be able to engage with as many people as, as possible. So, you know, we were talking about the conference. I got off stage, I had 35 inbound LinkedIn connections as a result of the two presentations I gave. And that's— that means the message landed. And now—

well, and those 38 connections, because of where they originated from, weren't, you know, your, you know, whatever, mother-in-law's friends from Canasta, right? These are real viable connections. So I love, I love a lot of what you're doing in terms of the committing to consistency and frequency, knowing who your audience is, multiple modalities. What about, um, you doing anything where you're collaborating with others that are in this space or tangentially in the space to do things together?

So that, so the great thing is coming from Gartner for so long, I have a lot of people who have since done what I've done. So I've actually been doing a lot of work with them. Uh, buddy of mine who I was just up in Toronto, he just changed jobs. He and I are gonna do a roadshow up in Toronto and Ottawa.

Nice.

I've been on a bunch of other podcasts from, you know, former colleagues, and, and the one thing that I'm working on is trying to figure out what this evangelist job actually is, right? At its core, I think and I talk. Okay, that's great, but there are a lot of people doing this kind of role. They don't necessarily have that title. So I've actually been reaching out to those people, and I'm going to be starting to build a community to say kind of you know, what, what works and, and what doesn't. Uh, we do a ton of internal collaboration as well at Blackfader. I write blogs with our chief security officer. I'm actually building a presentation on AI and security with our head of research. So that's part of what I'm doing.

I love it.

Yeah, but you know, some of the other things too. So a blog is a great example. When I first started, I was dictating my thoughts to one of our writers. You know what? She's a great writer. She's not me. So I now have started writing my own blog with my voice and my weird sense of humor and my sort of, you know, geeky kind of nerdy core. And it's definitely resonating much, much more. You know, I try to throw in one reference that someone should ask me, what does that mean? Because I'm trying to, you know, you want to get people thinking.

And then we're also finding Finding and embracing your own voice with its quirks and all, because that's what attracts people to it, right? If you're just the outcome of a ChatGPT, you know, whatever, yeah, I might get the quote information from you, but I'm not getting that emotional resonance and I'm not looking forward to, you know, wow, Jeff, you know, people do look forward to it, right? Like we've had clients say, oh, I don't know, I don't get anything out of the thought leadership, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, and then They, you know, let's say they publish a newsletter every 2 weeks and they miss it 1 week, right? And all of a sudden they're getting a bunch of inbound. What happened? What happened? They like, you don't realize that people are actually like looking forward to hear what you have to say.

Yeah. Well, I have a good friend of mine who's not even in this field. I've known him forever. So all of my blogs close with Wheatman out, right? Which is sort of an offhanded sign of, you know, Ryan Seacrest. So he sent me a text. He was like, Wheatman out with smiley faces. I had no idea he was reading my blog. He doesn't do what we do. He's not in our industry. He runs a plumbing supply warehouse. It's a great job and it's important for that. But the fact that he's even interested in hearing, and Frank, I've known you for so long, he's not all that interested in hearing me, but I think you're right. And one of the things is I love, like my wife runs her own company. I love when she cross-posts my stuff, which I'll ask her to do every once in a while, 'cause then people who never saw that stuff and are not in security start to ask questions. And that's the key thing, right? Let's get people to ask questions and let's engage. And to me, that's true thought leadership. It's not about whether what I say is smart or unique. It's about whether what I say gets people thinking and engaging and asking questions and providing their perspective. To me, that's the value of thought leadership. Everybody can get up on a podium and go, "Ooh, look how smart I am." As an example, people refer to me as an expert. I don't like that. I am an experienced practitioner. I know what I know because I've made a lot of mistakes in my life.

But if others are referring to you as that, it's one thing for you to stand up there and say, I'm Jeff Weedman, I'm an expert, because now I'm already thinking jerk, right? But if somebody else sort of bestows that to you, that's a signal of respect, of acknowledgement, and it's not blowing your own horn, right?

Yeah, I suppose. I think maybe I, like a lot of people, have a little bit of imposter syndrome. So yeah, welcome to the club. Yeah, yeah, maybe, maybe that makes me feel uncomfortable for, for that reason, but I have to learn how to take compliments, frankly. Other people say, oh, that was really smart, and I go, oh, okay. But it's—

yeah, exactly, exactly. Cool. Well, this has been a lot of fun, Jeff. I appreciate you sharing some of what you're doing, some of what's working, and, uh, good stuff, good stuff. Thank you so much for, for spending some time with us today.

My pleasure, Peter. It was great to get to know you, and, uh, yeah, thanks for having me. It's been, uh, it's been a fun way to start off my morning.

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