The Playbook for Scaling Thought Leadership | Daniel Harkavy | 679

And welcome, welcome, welcome. This is Peter Winick. I'm the founder and CEO at Thought Leadership Leverage, and you're joining us on the podcast, which is Leveraging Thought Leadership. Today, my guest is Daniel Harkavy. He is amongst other things, the founder of Building Champions. He is an author. He's a CEO. He's a coach, and he's an all-around good guy. So welcome aboard, Daniel. What's going on today?

Good to be with you, Peter. Good to be with you. Appreciate it.

So tell me about the journey. How did all this happen? How'd you get to where you are today as a thought leader, as a business leader, as a coach, CEO, author?

Yeah, that is, uh, you know, how much time do we have? Because You know, first off, I'll say it's just a big God story. I can't believe I'm here.

Right.

But the way I look at it is, you know, if you were to look at kind of the genesis where I, I look back at all the breadcrumbs along the journey, all the trail, I was first told that I had influence when I was probably 10, 11 years old by an aunt. And it was because I was an awful kid. And she flat out told me, she said, Daniel, you got a lot of influence. And my concern is if you don't figure out how to use it for good, some bad things are going to happen in your life. You're going to hurt a lot of people. And I remember that as clear as day. I can remember where I was standing, where she was in the kitchen. So let's go from there to, okay, I figured some things out.

Mm-hmm.

Not all that quick. It took probably another decade or so. I was always hardworking. I got into mortgage banking at the age of 20. I was given an opportunity to lead and build a branch at 22. Because the first 2 years had gone really well for me.

Mm-hmm.

At 22, uh, I now have an opportunity, P&L responsibility to build an entity that would be a micro entity amongst a macro corporation. It really did well. It was me and one other employee. And, uh, through a style that I would now call coaching leadership, I attracted some really good, hardworking, honest, amazing young men and women. And, uh, within the ensuing years, my one office represented more than half of the overall organization's volume. And there were 17 offices. At about age 28, I was given the opportunity to lead all of production. So now I'm overseeing all the offices in the Western US at 28, 27. Uh, there's talk of me becoming the next CEO as the company had just gone public in In the backdrop, I'm married at 22. I start at 23. I start having kids and I am just a work machine. Age 30, I have some sort of a crisis of faith where I just realize I'm chasing the wrong things. I take a 1-year sabbatical. I leave the whole mortgage banking career, which was an insane move because the, uh, the, uh, compensation was more than I could have ever dreamt of as a young man.

Right.

I had the homes and the the nice cars and yadda yadda. But I took a 1-year break during that 1-year break, really just through prayer and trying to figure out who I wanted to be when I grew up and how I wanted to love my wife and my kids. What happened was a lot of my old employees and colleagues, they started asking me for input. They wanted to have these one-on-ones like I had had with them really from the age 23 through 30. And, uh, back then, that was 1996, Peter. There was no such thing as coaching organization. But, uh, I started charging to speak to ex-teammates to help them to start companies, to help them to improve. And, uh, you know, here we are 30 years later and Building Champions is one of the two entities that I run. But Building Champions is an executive coaching and leadership development organization. Where through listening, through synthesizing, through being curious, a lot of what I learned when I was in my 20s, which was all about helping people be the best they could be when I was in mortgage banking, I created a career around it and then I created—

so stay there for a minute because in my work, working with lots of different thought leaders from around the world, a lot of what I hear is, you know, the name dropping of the prestigious universities they attended. The research institutes, the, you know, fill in the blank, right? Like all the, like, whoa, that's pretty cool and impressive.

Of course, that's why you're here.

But here you are, like, here you were like some 22-year-old dude working your butt off, cranking it out in mortgage broking. Not the most sexy business out there. Not the most glamorous business out there, right? It's not McKinsey. It's not, you know, it's not a lot of things, right? But you weren't taught a framework or a methodology to say, this is how to coach people. Something in you just said, Hey, I'm just doing this thing. And then, you know, fast forward the 10 years or plus, whenever it was after you start to write, you start to not just coach people, 'cause coaching is sort of, um, what's the word I'm looking for? It works in flows, but now you've codified the methodology and you, and you actually paused and said, let me actually write this down. 'Cause a lot of this stuff lives between my head or in my heart or wherever. Tell me about where, what, what called you to do that and like get it on paper and codify. 'Cause that's ultimately what Building Champions is about now, is teaching people how to do the things that you did intuitively.

Yeah. So when I first sat down to map out what Building Champions could be, it was side by side with two other businesses.

Mm-hmm.

And I was thinking, all right, how do I want to invest my days? And I actually had this vision that, you know, I could probably build something where I go deep into mortgage banking where I've got a name. And you're right, there is no prestigious pedigree with me. I went to a community college, never graduated. San Diego State, which back at the time was the biggest party school around, turned me down. So, you know, they—

You weren't a big partier? You got turned down?

It was party because I exceeded expectations of partying.

I was— You're an old guy.

But, um, you know, there's a lot more to that story, but what happened was I saw that if I could effectively help the industry that I understood the vernacular of, I understood the frameworks and what a day in the life was. I, at that time in 1995, '96, when I was dreaming about this, I thought there's 5 businesses that I could go in that are all adjacent.

Sure.

And a day in the life of a financial planner or an accountant. Yes. Or, you know, somebody in real estate or insurance. They have similar realities than do mortgage bankers.

Sure. Both of you, agent or anyone in sort of solo production kind of stuff. Yeah.

Yeah. So I thought, hey, proof of concept. Well, at the time I'm 31 years old and I've never held a CEO job. I was VP of production for a company. But, uh, you know, what happened was I started coaching originators and then branch managers and, and it started to grow. And I had somebody who believed in me, a guy named Todd Duncan, who I think you know of. You know, Todd puts me on a stage in front of people and all of a sudden, phew, I got people lined up. I put a few clients up there and they tell their stories of impact and transformation. And next thing you know, there's more business than there can be just for one person. And I saw that coming. So what I did was early on, to answer your question, early on, I read that book, The E-Myth Revisited by Michael Gerber. And I remember that, you know, checklists and and really how to build the business. And I did that as a 31-year-old. I, I brought a guy in who was a former CFO. I brought him in as a consultant and I said, hey, build a database for me. I know how to use ACT, customize it for a coach. And then I said, okay, now this is what I say and this is what I do, and here's the framework. And we started to build checklists for it. So what I did was I built Building Champions, this leadership and executive coaching company in a binder. Where I had checklists for every step of the way. And I was a complete, complete disciplined individual with regards to how we use that playbook. And I then, as demand came, I would have, I'd have a 6-month wait. I started hiring clients.

So stay there a minute because this is an interesting part of not just your journey, but others that I've seen there.

Okay.

So you've got this gift. It's yielding results, it's yielding opportunity. You're making a living, you're helping people. Life's great, right? Then you're at capacity because even if you are a monster in terms of a workaholic, there's only so many hours in the day, right? There's only so many people you can work with and there's only so many planes you can get on and, and, and all this other stuff, right? So now you have to transition a little bit to say, okay, if I want to scale this, if I want to leverage this, right? Whether that's to generate more income, which is cool. And/or to increase the impact that your thinking and work could have because me talking to me right now, you can't talk to 5 other people. So how did that click happen for you?

Well, so I have always been motivated by making a difference in the lives of people. So the premise of Building Champions, we exist to use and build our God-given gifts to make a positive and lasting difference in the life of each person we coach. The way I look at it is a leader You know, and I, I grew from like loan officers to branch managers to then CEOs. And then you fast forward to 2008 and now I'm in, I wrote Becoming a Coaching Leader, which was really my story up from how I built my whole coaching mindset, framework, et cetera, in banking. And I was now selling that in corporations, but all of a sudden now we're in all sorts of different businesses. So the thing that shifted or that I just took, you know, I took advantage of was it just flat out worked. So if it works, you have demand. And I believed that if I could find people who were somewhat like me, you know, and I had a profile for what I was looking for, I figured I could train them. And I started building a team and training coaches and, uh, you know, I think you look 30 years later, there's probably close to 30 coaching companies birthed out of my one company and we're still a team of 30 and it's a much different business today.

I'm going to assume, and tell me if I'm wrong, that the journey wasn't always, you know, up and to the right, linear and perfect.

And we've had near deaths, Peter, like, yeah.

So tell me about some of the, you know, and, and one is, let me, let me back that up a little bit. If you're coming off of the mortgage banking industry, mortgage brokerage industry, that by its very nature is cyclical. So I was round Todd and all that stuff back, back in the day. Then '08, '09 hits. That's not a business you want to be in, right? Like in '08 and '09. But tell me about, you know, some of the things that didn't work out so well, either on the macro level that were beyond your control, like the market crash of '08. Or things that, decisions that you might have differently?

So there's a few near deaths and I can tell you what I did and how I got wrong and then how I got right. So the first near death was 2001. And what happened was John Maxwell had taken an interest in me and he and I were doing these events around the country. We were having these things called Real Teams and we were sitting at dinner tables talking about merging companies and we were talking about You know, him promoting Building Champions at a simulcast where we'd have 2,500 leads.

Sure.

Well, I built everything, like I doubled down and invested. I trained 18 coaches who were not employees of mine yet. I upgraded our system from ACT to SalesLogix. I mean, I was deep in getting ready for a tsunami. And then things happened in his world and the simulcast didn't go like we thought. And, uh, And it almost tanked us. Mm-hmm. Almost tanked us. And, uh, it was a humiliating time. 2001, I'm 5 years into the business. I'm probably 36 years old and I'm questioning everything. Like, what the heck?

Mm-hmm.

Then you go to 2008. Well, in 2005, one of my clients at the time was Michael Hyatt. Yeah. And Michael Hyatt was the publisher, uh, the business publisher at Thomas Nelson Books.

Yes.

And he was a, a great client, turned out to be a wonderful friend and He, you know, as I'm mentoring and coaching him, he's telling me, Hark, if you got a book in you, you've got to write a book. Yeah. I wrote Becoming a Coaching Leader. Well, it came out in April of '07. August of '07 is really when the market crashed. Yeah. And my book is now in the hands of all sorts of different business leaders. In comes Chick-fil-A. Chick-fil-A reads the book. They had tried to do business with us in 2001. I said no. They wanted something that we weren't. 2008, they read the book and they say, hey, would you reconsider working with us? They fly out. They spend a day with us. We, we map out a possible plan. Today, they're still a wonderful client. You know, we've coached maybe thousands in that organization and I still get to work with their executive team. So, right now, 2008, Generations, uh, it's been wonderful. That was a near-death, uh, 2008. The mortgage banking industry dried up. We were launching Becoming a Coaching Leader as a certification, a train the trainer in businesses, had to shut that down because everything really, the spigot turned off and it took a while. We had a Chick-fil-A to come in and consume some capacity. Yeah. That was a near death. We had a near death in 2019 for other reasons. You know, last year was tough. Last year after some really great years, last year was tough because we allowed one client, a global client. To consume too much of our capacity. They faced headwinds. I knew it was going to happen. I always had a diversity barrier, but we let it go through. And then they had to make some pretty significant changes. And, you know, we were upside down in 60 days.

If you're enjoying this episode of Leveraging Thought Leadership, please make sure to subscribe. If you'd like to help spread the word about our podcast, please leave a 5-star review at ratethispodcast.com/LTL and share it with your friends. We're available on Apple Podcasts and on all major listening apps, as well as at thoughtleadershipleverage.com/podcast. So I want to have you sort of Tell the, or think about the journey now, Len, through the lens of technology. 'Cause if a lot of things that you talk about here, I'm fluent 'cause I've been around the block a couple times here, but like simulcast, what was that? Right? You know, back of the room. So you started in the days of Todd and all that. Back of the room literally meant someone would speak and in the back of the room they were selling other products, offerings, and solutions, usually in a tiered structure, right? If you came in for the day, that might be $50 and the next thing's 500 or then 5,000, like whatever. Simulcasts were literally through, you know, I think that was sort of Maxwell's creation, simulcasting through the capacity in churches, which tend to be vacant on days that aren't Sunday. Right. Right. So tell me what you've seen on the technology side and, and you had to stay in the game there because that's, that's changed and it's changing now once again with AI and, and big time, lots of other things.

Big time.

Yeah.

So I was always the, the fortunate recipient. To where I was always a guest. I never hosted, I never produced a simulcast. I was just a fortunate guest where through divine relationships, I started working with some of the most well-known influencers. You know, I started coaching Patrick Lencioni, Donald Miller, John Maxwell's executive team, Kevin Small.

Yeah.

You know what, next thing you know, I'm doing, I'm collaborating with Dr. Henry Cloud and we're doing things together. So, you know, and then Michael Hyatt, I helped Michael go from his career and then spent time with him helping him sitting in office for a day to craft the Michael Hyatt organization, which is Full Focus.

Yes.

So, you know, I look at the journey and how we've had to adjust the stage, whether it was in person or whether it was simulcast. What it did was it gave me an opportunity to talk about the impact that takes place when you have one-on-one transformation. So it was just a really loud megaphone. Our coaching company was started with just phone-based coaching. We never traveled. Other than me going and speaking, but we weren't live with clients. Well, today, a third to half of our business is us being face-to-face with clients in the executive team room. My next call here, I will be Zoom watching a team, an executive team function, and then debriefing with the CEO to help him and the team to improve. And I'll watch them every month, take notes, then I'm with them. So, you know, technology, when COVID hit, it forced something that I always saw happening, which was we're gonna move to a Zoom world. I mean, this is so much better than talking on the phone. And it works. It's not as good as us spending a day together and breaking bread and having a glass of wine at night, but it works. And it's a, it's way better than just the phone.

So, well, I think just it, it works, but I mean, part of what you were alluding to as well, it's not a binary world. So I'm sure most of your bigger clients you have had a glass of wine with or, or, or whatever.

Oh yeah.

So you have broken bread with them. And now, you know, maybe it's 80, 90%. This is a compliment. Yeah.

It just complements the, the relational stuff. And that's the thing about business. I mean, it's always gonna be, business will be about relationship. It'll be about competence. It'll be about trust. Now let's talk 2025 and beyond. Let's talk AI. Yeah. This is different. And yes, it's still going to be all of that, but it's gonna commoditize so many different businesses because it's so highly effective. Yeah, I think what's going to take place, and I've got a dear friend who has been just investing, she runs a PE firm out of the Pacific Northwest, and for a decade she's only been focused on Pacific Northwest AI and ML companies, and she's part of my CEO roundtable. And, you know, a term she shared with myself and my colleagues a few years back is for those who of us who are in businesses like ours or those who are listening to us or watching us, what we need to do is we need to make sure that we are masters in how we leverage our copilot. If you don't have a copilot being AI and you don't master that copilot, well, you're gonna get smoked. But if you know how to use that copilot, it will make you even more effective and more valuable as you go forward.

Well, and I think that's a key point because I think 18 months ago, the debating, which was kind of a silly debate, was I'm not using AI versus I am using AI. That's over. The question is we're all gonna use and are using and have to use AI, we have to figure out how to use it in a way that aligns with our integrity, aligns with our brand, and serves our clients well. Because I mean, do you want to, would you work with someone as a coach where they said, no, I don't, I don't do that AI thing, right? Like, I don't do that internet thing. Like, no, 'cause that's a Luddite. Like, that's not someone, you know, now how you integrate it in your business might be similar to how I'm doing it, or it might be different, but it's a great separate conversation for us to have. Hey, what are you doing? You know, Daniel, and in terms of serving your clients better or polishing your IP or whatever it is, creating new programs, whatever. There's a ton of things that you can do. And I think the, the, where I'm learning a lot is what people have learned not to do with it because it is not the Swiss Army knife of everything. Right. You know? Yeah.

Yeah. For, for people who are following you, you know, it's thought leaders, it's consultants, it's co-hosts, correct?

Yes.

So I think the, the opportunity for all of us is there's 3 areas for us to really take a look at how do we leverage AI. The first area is in the back of the house. How do we use it to optimize everything from accounting to marketing to any of the processes that if we were to just make 'em faster, make 'em better, we would actually have more margin. That's number 1. I think the second way that we need to be using it has to do with how we get our message out there. So how do we use it for brand enhancement? And I think that that is, that's evolving so quickly that I feel somewhat concerned for my agency friends.

Yes.

Who, you know, it's already making a pretty significant dent in their world. Then the third area is how do we use it to be better in it is what we do? We are just better. Our IQ increases as a result of this lightning-fast resource center.

And that's, I, I like the way you framed that. And that last piece is the place that I'm fascinated with because I was talking to a, a, a buddy, uh, 2 weeks ago. He's got a new book coming out, whatever. And to make this book better, he created his own advisory board of Jack Welch and Ty, you know, it's like the old, if you could have 10 dinner with 10 people and it's like, who Actually better. You can have a conversation with those 10 people anytime you want. And, and he had Simon Sinek on this, but like all the, the dream team of who would I like to tap in on and you seeing them cross-collaborate. But ultimately, you know, the key is it's just input, right? Just because the chat said do this, do that, whatever. Or the Jack Welch chatbot said this and the, you know, whatever. It's just a way to, to spark the neurons so that you as the thought leader, 'cause there's a leader part of thought leader. That too many forget about that, you know, you are leading your thoughts in a different direction to new markets, et cetera. So all the input, whether it's AI or people, wherever you're doing it, is just input. Your name's on it, right? Your name's on the damn book, so you gotta stand behind it.

Yeah. And that's why I say, you know, I like what— plug for Heather Redmond, the, the one that invests with Flying Fish AI and ML.

Yeah.

Copilot.

Yeah.

Not the pilot. Yeah. The pilot's in charge of making the decisions. The pilot's ultimately responsible for flying this thing. That's, that's me. It's me. Now, what kind of a copilot do I have and how masterful am I in using the copilot? So, you know, real, real world stories. I was with a board a few months back, probably first quarter of the year, and in the board meeting, I'm helping this board come together so they can really better govern the organization and they're amidst a significant transition. They're doing some rapid succession work and, uh, and they weren't all that seasoned together. So I'm helping them to align and we're running through all sorts of different exercises and we're using AI real time as they're putting their responses up on the board. I'm having, I'm taking pictures and downloading that into AI, having it synthesize so that we're coming up with the best common themes. So, yeah, I mean, it's real time. What would have taken me 4 hours on the plane to put together, 2 minutes live time, and then we've got it. Now we move on. So now I'm more effective as the coach for that board. I'm like, hey, this is what y'all said. Now I don't need to schedule another meeting. I can actually just—

You go here, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. Well, this has been fantastic. I appreciate your time and your transparency and sharing the story and the journey with us today, Daniel. Appreciate that.

Hey, bud, thanks for having the confidence in me and allowing me to share with you. I'm grateful.

Thanks.

Good to see you. Thanks.

Good job. To learn more about Thought Leadership Leverage, please visit our website at thoughtleadershipleverage.com. To reach me directly, feel free to email me at peter@thoughtleadershipleverage.com. And please subscribe to Leveraging Thought Leadership on iTunes or your favorite podcast app to get your weekly episode automatically.