The Science of Success: How High Achievers Think and Win | Dr. Ruth Gotian | 632

How do you take an idea, nurture it, and turn it into a thriving body of thought leadership? Dr. Ruth Gotian, expert in mentoring and high achievement, has done just that, translating deep academic research into practical insights that help individuals and organizations succeed. In today's conversation, we unpack the essential role of mentorship, the power of persistence, and how embracing the habits of high achievers can transform your career. I'm Bill Sherman, and you're listening to Leveraging Thought Leadership. Ready? Let's begin. Welcome to the show, Ruth.

Thank you, and greetings from New York City.

Good to have you here. I want to start with a question based on a story that you told me a while ago that I think most people don't get asked early on, but you did. You were asked in grad school about your thought leadership. How did that come about? What was the question that was asked?

Yeah, so I was 43 when I decided to go back to school and get my doctorate. And I was doing it while working full-time and raising my family and having an insane commute of an hour and a half each way. And in between classes one day in the hallway by one of our multipurpose rooms, and a classmate asked me, "So what are you gonna do when you finish your doctorate?" And I was so focused on just getting through the day that I hadn't even thought of a few years in advance when I would finish the doctorate. And he said to me, "Well, what are you a thought leader in?" And my response was, "What's a thought leader?" And he responded with, "What are you uniquely qualified to talk about?" What do you have expertise in that other people come to you for? And I said, whoa, this I know about. And that was the beginning of the journey.

So let's stay in that moment. How did you respond to that question after you got the definition? Did you have a moment of clarity as to what your area of expertise in thought leadership would be, or did you have to sort of receive that question and process it?

Well, the good thing about getting your doctorate is you have to hyper-niche on a topic and a population. So I was studying success and I was studying extreme high achievers. At that point, I was studying what are called physician scientists, those who have the MD and do research simultaneously. So I knew I was studying success and I knew I was studying high achievers. I wasn't quite so sure what I would do with it yet, because again, my goal was just to finish this doctorate. But once that seed was planted in my head, it took root and it's still there. It is stuck in there and it's kind— it's growing and growing and growing because you know what? There's always more to do. And there are always people who I have now learned want to hear about that thought leadership about success and high achievers and how we can all become one, because I believe we can.

And I think that's a foundational question, right? It is not what is the world as it is in terms of were you born with the right set of genes. But like you said, everyone can adopt elements of these high achievers and success. And that's a message that has appealed in different ways to different audiences. If I go back to Stephen Covey, you know, Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, it wasn't Seven Habits of People Who Were Born Highly Successful. Right?

That's right. In fact, most of them were not born with a silver spoon in their mouth. They learned through a lot of trial and error. Look, one of the people who I interviewed was Apolo Ohno, the most decorated Winter Olympian. He was raised by a single dad. He was actually— he started in different sports. He was athletic, but he was actually a swimmer first. But he didn't love it. And it took him a while to figure out what it is that he loved. And ultimately, once he did it, he doubled down on it. You could be born with all the talents in the world, but if you don't use them and use them for good, you might as well just be binging Netflix on your couch. So the question is, how do you identify what your superpowers are? And then how do you leverage them for good?

So let's stay there on the silver spoon and responding to adversity. Right. So you've shared with me a story of someone who became very successful in the astronaut corps, even though at the start you wouldn't have predicted it.

Yeah, it was a very, very bumpy road. And you're talking about Dr. Peggy Whitson. This is an incredible story, and I hope anyone who's listening and multitasking will pause and focus on this story because I think This could be a launching pad for everyone. Dr. Peggy Whitson is a biochemist. She worked in a lab. Now, not everyone who works in NASA is an astronaut, and she worked in NASA as a biochemist, and she would see the astronauts coming in and coming out, and she was actually a trained pilot. And she said, I want to be an astronaut. And once they started letting women become astronauts, she applied and she was rejected. And she applied again and she was rejected. And she applied again and was rejected. Now, Bill, I don't know about you, but I would not apply for the same job over and over again if I was rejected. But Dr. Peggy Whitson applied for this one job that she wanted to become an astronaut. Over and over and over again for 10 years, a full decade, a full decade. She applied for the same job. Well, ultimately she got accepted. She became an astronaut. She spent more days in space than any American astronaut of any gender. She also became the first female commander of the International Space Station. A role she held twice. And ultimately, this woman who was rejected for a decade from the role she wanted most of being an astronaut ultimately went on to become NASA's chief astronaut. So that is to me one of the most incredible stories. Now, what is so fascinating was I asked her, I said, Dr. Whitson, why don't you just give up? Because nobody would blame you. No one in their right mind applies for the same job over and over and over again, especially while they're still working at the organization. I mean, they're saying they don't want you. And she said to me, the question was never if I was going to become an astronaut. The question was how. What do I have to prove to them that I haven't figured out yet? Because I need to show them what they're looking for and I need to figure out what that is. So she said, challenge accepted, and off she went.

That's a fantastic story. And you've talked about ambition, and I think one of the things from that story is you could say there's ambition there. There's also focus and discipline, but you talk about planting ambition. What does that mean?

Look, planting ambition is when there's a mentor there who puts an idea into your head and now you can't get rid of it. The ambition at its core is there and they help to propel it forward. And I think that's so critical and we all need people like that in our lives. We have it, but somebody needs to get that lighter fluid out there and really push it forward.

So to borrow a mythological or quasi-mythological example, to be a Johnny Appleseed of ambition, right?

That's right.

And I think about your example of a grad school colleague who asked you, what are you a thought leader in? Because that seems to me that was an example of someone who was not in a formal mentorship role, —produced a question that planted ambition in you. Absolutely.

And that's what peer mentors are all about. These are people who are at your level. They're going through what you're going through. They can understand what you're going through. They might be a step ahead. They might be a step behind. They might be at your level, something that I call friend-tors. But they can ask you questions and you don't even need to have the answer for it yet. He certainly didn't know what my thought leadership was. I didn't know what it was, but it got me thinking about it and it got me planning for the future. And that, I think when someone plants that seed, as we said, planting that ambition, now you gotta take it and run with it.

So an aside question, that friend who asked you the question, are they practicing thought leadership now? Or was that a well-timed question that just landed with you?

Uh, that person is off in Hollywood now.

Understood. Different form and different journey. Yes. So let's talk about your journey of thought leadership, right? Yeah. So let's talk about the process of book writing, 'cause that's you and how you and I started talking. Getting that first chapter written was a bit of a challenge, wasn't it?

Yes, that was for the book, The Success Factor. That first chapter was rejected by my editor 3 times. 3 times. That is— talk about a slap in the face. Now look, I'm an academic. I'm used to rejections and this stung because usually I take the rejection, I take the notes, I'm able to fix it. But getting rejected over and over again, I said, I'm never gonna get this book done if I can't get chapter 1 done. What I had quickly learned was that I was writing like an academic. Nobody wants to read that. And the editor said to me, "Your superpower is translating academic theory into action that every person can use. Write that." And I did. And I spoke with a friend of mine, I guess you can say another friendtor, who recently published a book. And I was whining to him how chapter 1 was rejected 3 times. I'm never gonna finish the book and what do I do? And he said to me, well, what chapters are you most excited about? I said, oh, that would be chapter 4 through 7 when I talk about the 4 markers of success. And he said, start there. I said, I don't need to start with chapter 1? He said, it'll get published in order, but you don't need to write it in order. So I started with chapters 4 through 7. And then I finished 8 through 10, and then I went back to chapters 1 through 3. And at that point they wrote themselves because I was so ingrained and I figured out how to write in this style that I was less accustomed to at that time. By that point, it flowed so easily. And I said, oh, this really is my superpower to make this translation. And I was excited about it. And once I wrote it, I couldn't write it in any other way, which is why I started after that publishing in so many lay journals, such as Harvard Business Review and Fast Company, because I realized nobody was translating this academic research into actionable tips that people can understand and use immediately.

And there's several things there. I listened to you. Through this conversation and your area of professional or areas of professional interest. What drives success? How does mentoring work? These are things that you have studied, that you've written and published on. Enter into this conversation with a level of energy and joy. They're woven through your examples, right? And I think I think there is a distinction on that academic practitioner divide where there are some of us who will start with a Google Scholar search or an online search to see what can I find in terms of what's the lit out there. But most people don't get excited by reading methodology sections. Most people want to know, I have 15, 20 minutes. What's something that I can digest and start applying? And academic writing is not written for that audience.

Nope. Nope. You know, it's— I don't know how many academics are listening, but you always know an academic when we give an academic talk, the people in the audience are quickly looking on their phone to look at the academic papers the speaker has written. That happens. You see that on the phone. Everyone's just scrolling, right? And you need to have that in order to have that credibility. But at the end of the day, so many people who I talk to are everyday people who are not reading academic literature. And they want to understand, how can I elevate my success? How can I be a better mentor? How can I be a better mentee? And being able to share that with people so that they can improve in their own professional journey and they can create their own thought leadership is one of the most inspiring things I've ever been able to do. And the more people that I am able to reach that way, that's that ripple effect we all want to have, right?

So I suppose there are the academics who are lit, lit up by doing the actual research, right? Forming the hypothesis, figuring out how they're going to test it, tease out the confounds and all of that, and come up with something that advances knowledge. Or sometimes it confirms what we know instinctively, but we didn't have data for it. And adding to the discussion, you seem to have taken delight in the role of being that translator and impacting an audience of non-academic practitioners. What does that light up within you? Why does that, you know, get you excited to— yeah, you know, work on the book or give another talk or do a podcast interview? What fuels you?

Well, you know, it's I don't believe anybody wakes up in the morning aiming to be average. I think people want to succeed but have never been given the tools how to do so, the process how to do so. And I've done this research. I have figured it out by interviewing. I do qualitative research. So by researching Nobel Prize winners and astronauts and Olympians and NBA champions, and I figured it out, which means I can now teach it to others. Look, just this morning on my commute, I was talking to a 2-time Olympian and he just won an individual bronze medal at the Paris Olympics in August. And this was the— while we were texting, this is our first phone conversation since the Olympics. And I said, oh, congratulations on your medal. And I said to him, what's the next goal? Now, to most people, that would say, wait a minute, he has just won the Olympic medal 2 months ago. Let it sink in. Let him process it all. And I said, but I know high achievers. On his flight home, he was already thinking about his next goal. That Olympic medal was in the past. Now it's time to think about the future. And I knew it. And of course, we started discussing about his next goal, et cetera, et cetera. And that's why if you talk to Olympians, they don't have their medals on display. It's usually tucked away somewhere. Being able to share that with other people, share those stories, because so often people see the success, those medals, but they don't see the work that goes into it. I have a very unique opportunity to see the work that goes into getting the medal. The frustrations, the opportunities, the mindset. And if I can share that with other people who, you know, someone who got rejected by a job that they wanted and I said, reapply, apply again. Because if Dr. Peggy Whitson can apply for the same job for 10 years, you can too. And the Olympian who I spoke to today didn't get an individual medal at the last Olympics. He got a team medal. This time he got an individual one. So there's always more to do. There's so many lessons from these incredible people, and it's my privilege to be able to share it with people. And as excited as I get about it, I know their face lights up when they see anything is possible. There just needs to be a process to be able to do it. And I'm happy to share that process with people.

If you're enjoying this episode of Leveraging thought leadership, please make sure to subscribe. If you'd like to help spread the word about our podcast, please leave a 5-star review at ratethispodcast.com/LTL and share it with your friends. We're available on Apple Podcasts and on all major listening apps, as well as thoughtleadershipleverage.com/podcast. Beautiful answer, Ruth. And as I was thinking about that, in the journey of thought leadership, there are few competitions that are as clearly defined as the Olympics or as clearly defined as an appointment to be the commander of a space station, right? We take our wins and our moments of success differently. And have to carry them to sustain us. And on a note of personal experience, the one thought that came to me, it's not related to thought leadership, but it relates to that persistence. 2014, I was diagnosed with heart failure and I couldn't walk across a room. And fortunately, through good medical treatment as well as then a pacemaker implant, and a whole lot of persistence, I was able to run my first 5K. I'm now, as of November 3rd, 2024, running my first full marathon. But here's the thing. If you ask me which of my race medals, as I've stepped up from first 5K all the way up, I think the one that's going to hold place of privilege for me and the one that I am most proud of is not the couch, not the Couch to 5K, but the hospital bed to 5K. Oh yes. And so there's value in the signifiers that we assign meaning to. And I think one of the things that I take from this conversation is not only the perseverance, but recognize what fuels you and be able to engage with that, even if it doesn't mean anything to anyone else. That's right.

That's right. It's a personal journey, isn't it? Yeah. And you need to find people who, as I said, will be that turbo booster for you and really push you forward and not be envious of your success, but be encouraged by it. And there's a big difference. And I think having those people around you is so critical. Look, we each need to have our own goals. No one else can define our goals but us. And we also have to decide— it's our decision when to walk away from it. That goal is no longer fitting for me. And there should be goals that are no longer fitting for you because you're not the same person at 40 that you were at 20. So your goals probably don't fit when you are 40. Right.

You're hearing a little bit of— I'm hearing a little bit of Marie Kondo. This goal no longer brings me joy. But it's true though, right? Right, right. So, and I love the example of especially like the early question that you were asked of where is your area of thought leadership that has fueled you? Okay. One of the things that I think also thought leaders don't have support on, or people who practice thought leadership, are people who understand what the journey is. And you wind up doing a lot of hand waving towards friends and family, and they're like, oh, you write books. I guess I'm going to support you on your next book. And it's like, that's part of what I do, but that's not all of what I do.

That's right. That's right. That book is really a big business card because part of the thought leadership is creating content that's digestible, that people can understand. And I believe that sharing content and education should be democratized, which is why I really push to share in different formats. So I don't just mean the book should be in print and an e-reader and Audible. Absolutely it should, but for those who don't want to, or can't, or don't have the time to read a full book, there are articles, there are podcast interviews. I've done LinkedIn Learning courses. I've done webinars. There's so many things. If you want to learn, there is thousands of books, articles, webinars, and podcasts that I have done. Since my friend asked me, what is your thought leadership? So it is out there for those that want to take it in. I've put it all out there for you. Now the question is, what are you going to do with it? Absolutely.

And I think one of the ways that I identify someone who is actively practicing thought leadership is they are constantly sharing their their insights with others from a place of persistence, passion, and generosity, right? Yes. That it is in many ways getting the ideas into the hands who need them. Because if you truly believe you have an idea that can make lives better for individuals or organizations and teams or patients or wherever you're defining your audience, It's hard to stay silent.

Yeah. Yeah. And people want to learn, which is why I'm excited that I can put this all out in print form and LinkedIn Learning courses and whatever, but I can also go into organizations and give keynotes and the workshops and teach people and have them ask me questions live because that is fun. And sometimes I know the answer and sometimes we need to work it out together.

That's really cool. So I want to ask you a couple of questions here. When we started this conversation today, you told me about a bit of recognition that you had heard about today. Okay. And I know this is sort of like asking, you know, the Olympian about their medal, but I'm going to do that as setup for the following question. So what recognition What did you receive today? What did you hear about?

I just found out that my latest book, Financial Times Guide to Mentoring, which I wrote with Andy Lapada, that it was shortlisted for one of the top 10 leadership books in the world. So as someone who got her doctorate in adult learning and leadership and wanted to make her mark and get that thought leadership out there, to have the book that Andy and I put our heart and soul into and worked so hard. And by the way, we live in two different continents. Being able to get that out there and have it recognized with being shortlisted as one of the top leadership books in the world, I'm still, still blowing my mind. I'm not, I'm not ready to say what my next goal is. I'll come to you. Right, right, right.

It's the moment on the podium. Like you said, for the Olympian. Yes. They're thinking about it on the flight home. But there's a moment to celebrate, right?

I am still in that celebratory mood. And we still have, you know, the finals.

Yeah, exactly. So what I would say is, if I were to come back to you a few weeks or a month later and I were to ask you, What challenges do you want to tackle next with your thought leadership? And I'm not asking you that question now, but I think based on the themes of today's conversation, you would have an answer that would be clear on that. You'd be moving on to the— Oh, you do? I have an answer.

Yes. Are you comfortable sharing? Sure. So two things. One, I don't know if there's gonna be video here, but for those who are watching, you see all those Post-it notes behind me? Mm-hmm. Those are all articles that are in progress. So definitely doing more of those. And I think I have been getting many requests, not only for more books, but also courses around the ideas in the book. So I'm beginning to, to think about how to develop that.

So one of the challenges with the practice of thought leadership is you reach a point where you get more inbound requests for your insight and time than there is of you, right? Yeah. In some ways it's sort of like grad school. How do you sort and prioritize? How, how are you determining how you can make the most impact and where you put your time, energy, and passion?

Look, um, my mentor told me 6 words that changed my life. He said, do something important, not just interesting. Because when you do something important, you're looking at it in a new way, in a way that other people have not looked at. And when I interviewed Dr. Tony Fauci, Peter Winick, who led the COVID response here in the United States. I asked him, I said, how do you pick which infectious disease to pursue? I mean, there's so many. And he said, I do what's important, not just interesting, because when it's important, you can positively impact millions of people you will never have the opportunity to meet. And that has sort of been my guiding light. Do something important, not just interesting. One of the reasons that I'm able to put out all this content is when somebody asks me for something, I can't have a half-hour conversation with every person who requests it. But if they have a question about something, I can send them the article. And that really, that really helps. And I think for speaking opportunities, it's good that I have an agent. So that helps with that.

So couple of questions as we begin to wrap up here. The first thing I want to do is offer you an opportunity based on your work, your research, knowing that many people who are in our audience are practitioners of thought leadership. Yeah. What advice would you share either around success or mentoring, which— and think of this as sort of a meta important, because the way I look at it is, and this is pretty much aligned with my career and work, the more I help people who have good ideas get them out into the world effectively, the more impact I'm able to make, even if it's not my idea. So what advice would you give to those practitioners to do the important things and create impact based on your research?

So I think you need to surround yourself with a team of mentors who believe in you more than you believe in yourself. And by reaching out to those people when you have an idea, so as a litmus test, will this work? Will this not work? What are the challenges? What are the opportunities? What am I not thinking of? That'll— present opportunities to you and open doors that you hadn't even considered because now your mentor knows that you're interested in something and they say, "Oh, I think you should speak with Jane. Let me make that introduction." You didn't even know Jane existed before. So this creates opportunity, this creates this movement for you. And I think that'll be incredibly helpful. And you know what? Astronauts, Nobel Prize winners, Olympians, NBA champions, they all surround themselves with a team of mentors. And if it's good enough for them, it should be critical for us as we are trying to advance and move forward as well.

That's a beautiful answer. My last question for you is one that I want to ask around whose work do you follow in thought leadership that you think more people should be aware of? So this is a chance to give a shout out to someone's insights and research that light you up, but maybe not have reached the spotlight yet.

Well, I think there's so many. With the adult learning, I think you should look up Stephen, with a PH, Stephen Brookfield, who is my academic idol. I think when it comes to looking at failure as part of success, obviously look at Amy Edmondson. And if you want an incredible story, how you take advantage of every opportunity and learn what you can from it and push it forward and move forward, read the autobiography of Dr. Robert Lefkowitz. He won the Nobel Prize in 2012 in chemistry. And fun fact, he shared that Nobel Prize with one of his mentees. And he told me that I, when I asked him if he was envious to share that Nobel Prize with his mentee, he said, are you kidding me, Ruth? He said, that is the biggest honor. Of my life. That's how I measure my success.

And we'll leave it there. That— I want to thank you, Dr. Ruth Gotin, for joining us today. It has been a wonderful and enlightening conversation. Thank you so much. Okay, you've made it to the end of the episode, and that means you're probably someone deeply interested in thought leadership. Want to learn even more? Here are 3 recommendations. First, check out the back catalog of our podcast episodes. There are a lot of great conversations with people at the top of their game in thought leadership, as well as just starting out. Second, subscribe to our newsletter that talks about the business of thought leadership. And finally, feel free to reach out to me. My day job is helping people with big insights take them to scale through the practice of thought leadership. Maybe you're looking for strategy, or maybe you wanna polish up your ideas, or even create new products and offerings. I'd love to chat with you. Thanks for listening.