Unlocking Careers Without College | Lawrese Brown | 634

In thought leadership, you need to carefully choose your target audience. If it's too big, no one will listen. But even when you define your audience tightly, it's possible to have a very large potential audience for your ideas. My guest today, Larisse Brown, author of I Don't Have to Go to College, is on a mission to challenge outdated narratives about career success. She's helping students, parents, and educators reimagine the transition from school to work, uncovering alternative pathways that lead to financial stability and fulfillment. In today's conversation, we discuss how to shape an idea for your audience, how to challenge established norms, shift perspectives, and create new opportunities. I'm Bill Sherman, and you're listening to Leveraging Thought Leadership. Let's begin.

Welcome to the show, Laurice.

Thank you, Bill. I'm looking forward to this conversation.

So one of the things that I wanna start exploring with you is writing a book and then rewriting the book, right? For two different audiences. But before we go there, I wanna ask you the question, who did you write for initially and what was the book?

So initially, my current book, I Don't Have to Go to College: Discover Well-Paying Jobs That Don't Require a Four-Year College Degree, was targeted at parents. And it's largely because I came from it from, you know, people talk about the theory of change.. And in my mind I said, okay, well, the information I was finding based on research that was like, okay, if students go to college, how do they get an ROI on the amount of money that they're spent? So it was really this, okay, who's spending the money and also who is most invested? I mean, outside of the student in their, this student, this child going to college, and it was their parents. And I really targeted them from this perspective of, well, how to sell them on your child can be economically successful. Without you paying this amount of money. And it was heavily steeped in research from the perspective of there's a number of students who graduate from college who end up underemployed and disproportionately they were Black and Latino or other underrepresented students. And so really it came from the perspective of if this, if parents knew, and specifically if parents in these demographics knew, would they make different choices? And when I tested that, the answer was, well, maybe, but I had the same struggle that most people have, or that many people have trying to get parents. They're so busy. How do you get them to show up? When I tested it with parents, it was evident that certain parents who already were open-minded towards, well, my child has shown that they have a, a career and technical interest. My child wants to do welding. My child's interested in construction. They already were sold, but the traditional parent felt like, you know what, college, a 4-year college specifically, was their only path. Even if they didn't go to college, it was, that is the American dream. That is the pinnacle of what my child can accomplish. And so, you know, once I got that feedback, I said, okay, maybe this is not the best way to get the change or to at least get the open-mindedness I'm looking for in this space.

So you then talked about having to rewrite that book. For a different audience. Where did you switch to and what impact did that have on the book?

I then switched directly to students. So I had a group of interns that I was working with and I was getting their feedback actually on, um, a little bit of the parent version, but just the data that I had been collecting. And what they helped me do was the students helped me hone in on how to give them the language they needed to make the decision for themselves. So two things. I originally, again, from the economic standpoint, was interested in parents, but I was up against parents' natural blockage that like, okay, four-year college is the pinnacle. One of the things that's different about this generation is that they are more open-minded. So the advantage, the immediate advantage I had was I'm already talking to people who are looking like, I'm open to four-year college, but I'm also open if that's not the best path for me and I can find other pathways. So I didn't have to do any convincing. It was more like take them on the journey of exploration. And so when I pivoted towards students, they were very clear in the information they needed to make their mind. And it was mainly, I don't know what jobs, well-paying jobs are available for me anyway. And like most of us, they wanna do jobs they care about. And so that's when the book really flourished. The first part, of course, was a conversation about if you don't go to a 4-year, let's talk about 2-years, apprenticeship, boot camps, other paths. That, uh, you can go to after high school. But then the, the meat of the book is truly, uh, what are your interests and helping them align their interests, their hobbies, right? Whether it's gaming or art or health, how do we align those to industries with in-demand jobs so that they can see, oh, this is a family-sustaining career for me.

Thank you, Lori. So I wanna go another layer into this conversation. This core idea that college isn't a necessity for every student. As you said, parents have bought into the story, right? There's a lot of institutional momentum encouraging people to go down the path of college. How did you come to be an advocate for alternatives. Why is this a piece that's passionate for you that you talk about?

So two things in my own story, you know, my parents, they were born in 1951 and they were like, you know, if you go to school and you work hard, you'll be successful in life. And I did that. I took that to heart. Uh, so I, I focused on being academically successful. I was 8th grade co-valedictorian. I went to boarding school. I graduated Gettysburg College magna cum laude, and then I went job hunting and I was like, wait a minute, there's more than this. And even more, I got to do a comparison of myself and other members of my class who I knew didn't have the same academic achievements that I did, and they still landed great jobs. And so that first started knocking at me a little bit. That's like, wait a minute, this, this idea that my success or post-secondary success, the most decisive factor is academic achievement. Started to rattle me a little bit, right? I was like, that's not, that's not entirely correct. And then the other factor in that was this blo— like blooming, blossoming, I can see this mushroom cloud in my head, but like this almost volcanic conversation about student loan debt. And then when I really dug into it further, this idea, the idea of ROI on college and not just like, again, that can be, that, that can get nuanced and complicated very quickly in terms of like, your loans and your interest rates. But I think it, but when I fundamentally broke it down, it was like you're making an investment in your future and it's presented. We all know that statistic that if you go to college, you on average will make a million more in your lifetime. And then I started to dig into that and I was like, well, who, who, how do you get that million more in your lifetime when many students are picking majors that are where that lead to underemployment? Meaning they're not gonna get a bachelor level job, right? So some of the liberal arts majors that at one time were more celebrated when there was a smaller group of students who, a smaller pool of college students, but certainly among the millennial generation where, you know, there was an increase in students who've gone to college and there's much more talent competing, you don't have that same advantage that you had before. So just picking a major or saying I went to college doesn't automatically mean higher earnings. Then I looked at it again from my own demographics when again, I looked at underrepresented students and I was like, well, or low-income students, whether they're rural or from urban areas who are presented as this is your path to economic mobility for yourself and sometimes even your family. And you look at the data and low-income students are the most likely to end up paying more for college and then also the most likely to end up underemployed. And so then that conversation, right, coupled with like, wait a minute, academic achievement is not the most decisive factor, which is important to note also, 'cause that's the form of intelligence we tend to put on, on, um, college. And certainly the mark I went through life with, I was like, oh, I am intelligent. So it was breaking that down in the right ways to say, wait a minute, there are multiple forms of intelligence as we know, and people shouldn't be discriminated against because that, because academic learning is not the type of intelligence that they have. So that was one piece. And then the other piece of it was, if this is about economics, which increasingly the path to going to college has been promoted as, then we have to talk about other pathways. We have to talk about opportunities that don't require a 4-year college degree that still lead to family sustaining wages and also continued growth opportunities.

Thank you. That's, that's a really nice in-depth answer. I want to flip and ask this question: what sustains you in this conversation? What is it that motivates you to, to get this idea out there, to speak to parents, to speak to students, to have this conversation?

Why?

I used to think— I used to be Ariet, I was saying that soft and candidly. I think, you know, being academically— my academic achievements made me arrogant. And as one of 6, I have 5 brothers and sisters, and I was proud of going to college. I was the 4th born, but the first to go through high school and college all the way through. And it was great. People celebrated me both externally, but also in school. I got a lot of opportunities from it. But it really blinded me from the reality that most adults who don't go to college and still live successful lives. Like, it put me in this bubble and it gave me this type of arrogance or specific type of thinking that I knew the path to be successful. And if more people just knew about that path and followed that path, then they would too. And as I matured and lived life and met different people and then also took stock of my own siblings and their success, I said, wait a minute, Laurice. I said, you're wrong here, right? Or you're limited here, or you're— this is arrogant, right? To believe you know what is best for everyone to do simply because it fits you. And I think if we zoom out, that's really the message that we've had for the pa— I mean, since the '80s, that the best path anyone could take is to go to college. That is automatically, or that is going to work out for you regardless of what your interest is, regardless of, of what you want to accomplish in life. That's the path you should have. So, When I, you know, brought this book to students, that's the response that I got. It was like, thank you. We don't hear people, our counselors, our teachers, and sometimes even our parents tell us that we are allowed to celebrate our success or to claim success if we, you know, haven't chosen the 4-year college path. And so that brings me joy and also brings me a sense of fulfillment. For students to say they feel like, well, they, they see me as an advocate of them.

I like that word advocate because you're opening possibilities. And I'm thinking even back to my educational experience, there was a conveyor belt that basically went along. You do well in one grade, you go to the next grade. And then you just sort of stair-step along, right? And it's designed to pull you through. And as you talked, I was thinking, going, for much of my educational experience, there wasn't a conversation other than, where are you going to college? It was expected. And so with that I look, look back and say, would I have made different choices if I knew different options right now? Right. I'm a kid of the late '80s going into college, so like that messaging was in full flower at that point that, you know, going to college was the way forward. But if you look at the social contract like you talked about, where you do everything right, you are going to have success because you have this piece of paper. That doesn't necessarily play out in the real world that way. There are no straight paths.

Right, right. That, and there, that formula we sell people, you just go do this and do that. No, no. I, I love what you said, that social contract. I think that's really what changed for me is, you know, this is a little bit —of a pivot, but even in the— beyond students having the option of whether they can go to a 4-year or not go to college, even when they make the transition to work, it's challenging for anyone who's taught that your hard work is the most decisive factor in your success to take a moment to say, to kind of recalibrate and say, listen, I'm not telling you not to work hard. Your work ethic counts. Your, your academic achievement counts, your qualifications count, and still other factors count as well, right? Whether or not you have connected with the right person and that person sees value in you and wants to give you an opportunity, that counts. Whether the timing, and maybe some, you came into an organization right at the time that someone was there a long time and they exited, and so you were right there and at the right time and you got it, right? Or, or a range of things. Go into how we excel or not, especially in the workplace and in life. And, and it, while it's important to have that accountability to yourself, to continue to take feedback and improve your technical interpersonal skill sets, there's more than that.

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So let's expand the lens a little bit. We've talked about the book. We've talked about what motivates you. How else are you advocating this message? How are you reaching your target audience of students?

Social media, which I need to get back on, but I'll say this. So social media, especially TikTok, was an opportunity to hear what students had to say and to respond. And so you, uh, it's a couple things. One of the things I did on social media, on a TikTok account that I have @Larise, is I would take students' questions about not going to college. And largely what I found, some students, again, had already explored CTE, but some of the questions were, well, if I don't go to college and I stop at high school, what kind of jobs am I gonna get? Which to me, we realize it, it woke me up to this assumptions, like these hidden beliefs we have about students who don't go to college or anyone who doesn't take a 4-year college path. It just means, oh, you stopped at high school. And it's opening people up to realize like, no, there's apprenticeships, there's boot camps, there's 2-year programs. Like, or have you thought about the range of ways that you can continue your education that are not at a 4-year college or university? So that was one piece. And then that theme just kept coming back up again, um, from students and parents that was like, well, if I don't go to college, what are some jobs that I'm interested in? How to help explain expand their lens in that direction based on their interest. So social media has been an exciting place. I plan to go back and, and knowing that, or I should say double down and focus, but knowing that the biggest obstacle students face when it comes to barriers to non-college path is awareness. I recognize I need some partners in that space who will help me expose students to jobs that don't require a 4-year college degree. It's one thing for me to say it, it's another thing visually for students to see it. And have a chance to, to visually explore what it would be like to do the job, or even to see how that type of job, uh, whether or not exists in their local city.

And I think that's an interesting piece that ties nicely to the concept of thought leadership. Because when I talk about thought leadership, I often use the phrase making the invisible visible. And so that's exactly what you talked about is how do we make these options visible to students so they can say, oh yeah, I can see myself in that role, or this one's not for me, but this one over here is, I want to learn more about that. So I want to give you a magic wand for a moment here. You have a core passion in thought leadership. What impact do you want to make? How would the world change if your message was heard more widely?

More students would trust themselves. And I want to be clear, cuz trust is one of those words that is, can be ambiguous, but more students would make choices that aligned with what they actually wanted to do versus what they feel like they need to do or have to do based on the pressures they get from, again, students, parents, teachers, or even each other. That's the biggest challenge that I'm up against and is the idea that you only get to claim success one way. So it would look like more, you know, Ideally higher levels of self-esteem, but I think that even for people can feel broad. I, I think it, I know it would look like more self-awareness around how people make decisions, how students make decisions, more consciousness of their values, their values being what they're prioritizing. Some people do prioritize money, some people prioritize flexibility, some people prioritize building relationships. That's also in the book. So that, that recognition of because I value because I know I value relationships. This is what I'm prioritizing and what I'm pursuing. And also recognizing that that will change. There being a respect for individualism, especially recognizing that even from an economic standpoint, this utilitarian thing we all do where like, it's useful to me, therefore Bill, it must also be useful to you. No, doesn't exist, right? Like it's, it's not, it's, Of course we're looking for like-minded people, but how do we build a framework? How do we simply accept that people can do things that are different from us and still, it's still valid even if we don't get it, right? Even if we would never do it, even if we were like, oh, like that makes me like, I'm gonna use, like that makes me uncomfortable. You know, like that there's something to being at peace with people making choices, especially around their career. Where it makes sense for them and it doesn't have to make sense for us. And I would love that for students because if you can, uh, you hear these stories about, I wish I had trusted myself from everyone as they get older. This is the moment that I trusted myself. So imagine if we could cultivate or students could cultivate that trust in themselves, whether it's intuitive or simply from a greater consciousness about what they care about earlier. I think, I believe that would translate into You know, greater fulfillment, but also, you know, I think there's some other societal things people are grappling with as they're looking for their purpose or just trying to navigate what later on becomes personal failures because they felt like they made choices that other people wanted from them, but that they didn't want for themselves.

And that becomes such a powerful question. If we had people doing what they loved, or what they chose rather than trying to match other people's expectations. If we took the burden of regret or the burden of financial consequences off of people, how would people thrive and flourish in their careers? Absolutely. They could choose. I think that's, that's the place where the magic wand really comes to life is the unseen possibilities that we don't see because we've prescribed, if we will, a path for everyone when one size does not fit all.

No, it doesn't. Can I tell you something though, Bill? I, students, I think are finding a way to, I'll say, take more risks, right? Because one of the things, especially for my parents and, and I imagine for you, it was, it was a linear path. You finish school. Ooh, you're 18. See you later. You know, like it was like, okay, you got, you got, oh, you're married now. Go get the house. Right. Or like you're climbing the ladder in your career. Great. Now you go get the house. You know?

So it's like the little board game of life that was step by step on the, on the process. And if you veered from it, everybody looked and went, ooh, not so sure about that choice.

That's a goal.

Exactly. And so the way I believe students at this, this cohort of students, Gen Z and beyond, are giving themselves more space is they don't, they have more runway before they leave. And the reason why that's important is because I imagine when you're 18, like my parents always say, it was like, you can't come home unless you really were like in dire straits. And I think that having that space where this generation is home a little bit longer, gives them space to experiment, gives them space to take some risk, gives them space to say, you know what? And sometimes we don't even like it. People are like, or, or you'll see the headlines that are like, Gen Z is ghosting, or Gen Z's work ethic is not there, right? They are saying, hey, my tummy hurts and I'm going home. And certainly that is one side of it, but I think the other benefit of it is that we do, you know, at this time in work, we do need people who take risks. We do need people who are willing to innovate and sometimes Sometimes, many times, risk-taking or trying something new doesn't work out immediately. You know, there's some— so if a, if a student does wanna be on Twitch or build a blog, that takes time. And fortunately, of course, they can do that alongside work. But if they have the space and opportunity to take that kind of risk early in their career without the same overhead, then I think there's advantages to that as well. So only mentioning that because again, going back to perspective, whose perspective is it? It's easy for people to knock this generation from a space of failure to launch. Without seeing, well, hey, they have a chance to, to take some risks earlier in their career that maybe we didn't have, and, and that's an advantage.

And I think as we begin to wrap up here, one of my takeaways from this conversation is certainly in the practice of thought leadership, not only focusing on your audience, but the mindsets and the context your audience brings. Your assumptions here, right? So like we talked about the expectations for us going to school, right? And being excellent at that may not be the same expectations that kids today have. And so we have to be willing to reframe, reposition, and let others question things that we've already assumed.

Yes. It, it takes a maturity, a, an understanding of yourself. And by maturation, I mean a, a just a mindset to recognize that either this too shall pass or that people have the right to view your decisions how they want. And that could be none of your business, or you could make it your business, whatever way. But that doesn't mean you have to change your decision.

Yes. Larisse, I wanna thank you for joining us. In this conversation today. This has been delightful. Same here, Bill.

I truly enjoyed this conversation. Thank you for having me. Okay.

You've made it to the end of the episode, and that means you're probably someone deeply interested in thought leadership. Want to learn even more? Here are 3 recommendations. First, check out the back catalog of our podcast episodes. There are a lot of great conversations with people at the top of their game in thought leadership. As well as just starting out. Second, subscribe to our newsletter that talks about the business of thought leadership. And finally, feel free to reach out to me. My day job is helping people with big insights take them to scale through the practice of thought leadership. Maybe you're looking for strategy, or maybe you wanna polish up your ideas or even create new products and offerings. I'd love to chat with you. Thanks for listening.