Why Great Speakers Need More Than a Great Talk | Martin Perelmuter | 712

And welcome, welcome, welcome. This is Peter Winick. I'm the founder and CEO at Thought Leadership Leverage, and you're joining us on the podcast, which is Leveraging Thought Leadership. Today, my guest is Martin Perlmutter, and he is an unapologetic idealist. He's passionate about people and ideas. He's been in the speaking business for about 30-plus years. He was a co-founder at Speaker Spotlight. Before that, he was a corporate lawyer, but we'll, we'll let him get away with that. He's got interesting views on the speaking industry and is a past president and served on the board of governors of the International Association of Speakers Bureaus. So here's somebody that sits sort of at the center of what's going on in the speaking world. So, uh, glad to have you aboard today, Martin.

Great to be here, Peter. Thanks so much for the invite.

So I've got so many questions and I'm gonna just fire away if I could. So yeah, as you know, you probably know better than I, there's so many people out there that say, hey, I wanna be a speaker. Right. And sometimes it's because their Uncle Melvin told them they're so funny and they do great wedding toast or whatever. What does it really mean to be professional, to practice the art, the craft, to make a living at speaking? What are the, Obviously there's the stage piece, but what are the— give me sort of the totality of what that world actually looks like.

Yeah, I mean, there's so many parts to it and there's different types of speakers. You know, there's those who have maybe accomplished something great, they won an Olympic gold medal or, you know, climbed Mount Everest or whatever it is. So they have something that they've done that—

an Olympic gold medal, like the kid, like the American hockey players?

Just— no, not gonna go there. I'll just say you're only supposed to have 6 Skaters on the ice, right? 5 skaters and a goalie. So when you put 7 or 8 on and it doesn't get called, it's a little unsafe. We won't go there. Okay. So, you know, so there's people who, you know, who have some type of claim to fame, a platform that gives them the opportunity to speak. But, you know, for most mere mortals, you know, it may be, you know, thought leadership. It may be experience that people have in their professional careers that give them that platform. And people get invited to speak at conferences all the time, as you know., you know, often within their job and those might not be paid events. So, you know, they're, they're acting on behalf of a company that they, they work for. But to go out and, you know, speak and, and charge fees and do that, you know, is a, is a different animal. And so, you know, obviously you need to be a great speaker and great on stage. You need to have deep subject matter expertise. But then there's other factors as well, you know, like, like any, any business, you know, you need to be able to market what you do. And so there's different pieces to that that, you know, if you want, we can unpack some of that.

But yeah, so let's talk about the, the marketing, cuz I think everybody And, and I'm not downplaying the importance of the stage presence, but frankly, that's table stakes, right? If you're not good, if you don't have a story to tell, if there's not a lesson to be learned, let's, let's move on, right? But the marketing piece is, I think, where a lot of people struggle because, A, you're selling you, right? You become sort of the product and how you position yourself, whom in the marketplace you're positioning yourself. Pricing is so weird, right? Because if you and I were to go shopping today and I were to say to you, oh, well, what's your budget? Right? That's gonna dictate where we go. But with speaking, like, you could have an amazing speaker that's $10K and someone that's not as great of a stage presence as a multiple of that. So talk about the marketing pieces. If I was starting out today, what would you be advising I think about?

Yeah. I mean, to just take a quick step back. So for, like you said, the thing you really need is you need to be great on stage. So, so like, it is table stakes, but it can't be, overstated how important that is. Yeah. Because I think sometimes people think I'm just gonna create some great marketing and I'll figure out the, the speaking side of it later. You, you need to be great. And a lot of speakers I know have gone out and done dozens, if not hundreds of free engagements just to get their, their reps in, right? To really hone the craft. But once you've got that, once you feel like you've got something that's really excellent, yeah, if people don't know about it, it doesn't really matter. So the most important thing is video. These days, that is the most important marketing piece. So, you know, to give you an example, you know, I have clients that I've worked with in some cases for, you know, years, even decades. And, you know, they trust us. And if we say, hey, you know, this person's great, they're going to do a great job. They'll be like, look, I trust you and I know you wouldn't steer me wrong, but I have a board of directors or I have a committee that I have to convince. And I can't just say that this guy that I know, you know, who we've worked with says he's great. I need to show them something. So having a really strong video presence is super important. And to me that means, you know, you have a speaker reel. So that might be like 3, you know, 3 minutes long, maybe, you know, 3, 4 minutes with just some highlights. It basically tells a little bit of story, kind of, it's sort of like your business card and audition tape rolled into one. Sure. Right. So, and then, you know, having other clips from different talks is helpful too, but without having video footage of you actually on stage delivering a talk, doing what you do, it's, it's really challenging unless you've, you know, flown to space.

So let me, let me ask you a couple things about that because over the years there have been various, let's call 'em templates that people have followed for the speaker reel, right? Open with you opening, show the logos, audience reaction, somebody smiling. Like there was sort of the piece. Now, how are you thinking that's changed as evolved post-COVID, given that when we talk about speaking, 30, 40% of that might actually be done remotely today. How do, how does a speaker convey, I could do this remotely and do it well, not just the stage stuff?

Yeah, I think, you know, I see a lot of reels these days where, you know, you've got some clips of the person on stage. There's also some of the virtual talks. Well, and you know, and that's important if you, you know, like I'm looking at your background right now, like you have a set there, like people have a studio, home studios. And so, you know, being able to show people, again, this is my remote setup, but we're, you know, we're finding about 80, 85% of events are in person now. So in person on a stage is definitely the most important thing. And, you know, having really good quality footage of talks that someone's done is great and having different talks. So one might be in front of 2,000 people and one might be in a smaller, you know, a boardroom in front of 20 executives. Like if someone has that versatility, it's good to it's not just about having huge stages. Yeah. So stay going different. Yeah.

Stay there a minute because I think a lot of speakers get enamored with big, how big the audience is. And, and clearly it's a skill, right? To, to be able to garner the attention of people and, you know, 1,500 people. Not everybody can do that.

Right.

But, you know, to what you, what you said was really interesting, showing them flex in a small audience because it might be an executive offsite, it might be, a VIP event or something, and it's a different skill to be able to connect because sometimes when it's like 1,500 people, the audience are almost objects. Right. But if you're in a room with—

it's more of a performance.

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's right. So, yeah, I wanna go now. So, okay. So we've done the marketing, we've done the wraps, we've got it all down. Where I see a lot of thought leaders and speakers sort of miss some opportunity is not having the playbook that says, okay, here's the, here's the gig. It's gonna happen in such and such a city in such and such a time. What am I doing 30, 60, 90 days before? What am I doing on site? And what am I doing post? Not just to be a great speaker, cuz again, you're, you have an obligation to, to do that for your client, but to, to thread in there ways to grow your business, which may include things that are not just speaking, advisory, consulting, learning, et cetera. So how do you, how do you advise a speaker to sort of map out those various touchpoints?

Yeah, I mean, I, you know, I come at it from a unique pers— or a specific perspective, which is, you know, we're really focused on like we're providing a client with a speaker for, let's say, a keynote for, for an hour at a conference. So our whole focus is everything we can do to make sure that that hour is as good as it can possibly be for the audience, for the client. So in terms of the prep, I mean, you know, we obviously that you do pre-event calls and so forth. And you know, there's a speaker we work with, Peter Katz, and he has a saying that before the first pre-event call with the client, he says the gig starts now. Like, right? It's not like when you show up on site, it's like you have that first event with that client. You don't do it, you know, running through an airport, like on a cell phone or whatever. It's like they're starting to form impressions of you at that moment where you have that first interaction. So. You know, I think it's really key that every touchpoint with the client is really high, as high quality as possible so that by the time you show up on site, they've gotten to know you a little bit.

So they know you. Stay there a minute. Yeah. So there's so much good stuff in that. I think Thought Leader, you know, listen, they're on the run, they're on airplanes, they're running through there or whatever. It shows a level of, I don't know, maybe it's lack of respect on not being professional, whatever, where you're doing a pre-call, you know, hold on, I'm going through TSA, gimme a minute, you know, like, It's like, wait a minute, we're paying you a lot of money. Can we have your undivided— like, it's— if it was a job interview, and it's not a job interview, but you're not making them feel like the most important thing in the world to them. Right. And you're not conveying, I'm here to make you, Mr. or Ms. Client, as successful as you can be. Tell me what I need to know, because showing up and sort of throwing up, like, just doing the same old show, it's not about the speaker.

Yeah. And that's the thing. I mean, I think that the You know, taking the time in those pre-event calls to take the, you know, the care to listen, to understand what their needs are, their objectives, and making sure that you're aligning your message is key. So, you know, everybody's busy and has things to do, but if you're just kind of doing it like on the fly, it sort of sends the message like, yeah, yeah, yeah, this is just sort of a necessary evil. I have to do this pre-event call with you. And that's not what it is. It's really, that's where the valuable information comes out so that by the time the speaker shows up on site, they're really well prepared. Cared. So, you know, I think that that's a really important part of it. You know, if you have, if you're a thought leader and you have other services, you provide consulting, training, coaching, whatever it is, you know, my, my, this is just my perspective is if you deliver an amazing keynote, those opportunities will present themselves afterwards, right? You want people like after an hour going, wow, that was amazing. What else do you do? Because an hour wasn't even enough for us. We want more of what you do.

Let me push on that though, because I get it and, and Coming at it from the bureau standpoint, that makes total sense. Right. But I think there's this phenomenon that happens where up to the point of the event, the client always makes the time to talk to you, to speak with you.

Why?

Because the event's coming up and then the day after the event, and it's not a reflection on you or your performance, your personality, your ego, whatever. They're on to the next thing, right? They're planning the next thing. So even, even just getting a, hey, can we get a debrief call set up within 2 weeks of the event? I wanna get the feedback. How did I do? How did that resonate? Whatever. Those are harder to get. But if you start earlier from a process standpoint, say, hey, would you like me to create a little 2-minute video to send out to the participants in advance to set the tone? I can send out an online, like there's some other little goodies and treats that you can do that are value add.

Absolutely. The, the, what the thing I guess that I'm, I would be wary of is, you know, I've known speakers who we've got a keynote booked for them and they want to get on the phone with the client beforehand. The client's all excited cuz they're like, great, we're gonna talk about the event. And they're actually trying to sell them other services. Right, right, right. And it's like, hey, we haven't even done the keynote yet. Yeah. And you're already trying to kind of upsell me. Maybe that's not, you know, fair, but that's, I think, the way it can be perceived. So yeah, I think the value-added things like the video messages and things like that are great. But if there's other things that you, you know, you can provide beyond the keynote, I just think the important thing is nail, you know, just nail the keynote, do that as well as possible. It can possibly be done. And then you will have, you know, it's, you know, some speakers almost look at it as almost like a paid audition to do other things, right? Like, and, and that's, you know, that could be, I don't necessarily see it that way, but it's, you know, it's true. I mean, we've had speakers who've gone and delivered keynotes and it's turned into, you know, large opportunities that have rolled out over years, but it all started with that first event. So that's, to me, that's where all the focus.

And, and doing, doing the work where I think the worst thing a keynoter could do would come in and you know, the basics. They use a term customer when the client uses client, right? They say, hey, the insurance industry is great, but they're in front of financial advice, like, whatever.

Yeah, it's just losing audience. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Understanding that common language is so important, right? And, you know, if it's credit unions, right, they're members, they're not clients or customers. And if you go and speak to a group of credit unions and you're referring to like you've lost them already, right? And you may have amazing content and amazing message for them, but not having that shared understood language is, is so critical. So yeah, getting, you know, those questions that you ask in those pre-event calls are critical to really understand what the objectives are, what the organization's going through. And then yeah, are there things to steer away from and not to, to mention, or the things to really focus in on? So, you know, that the keynote I think is often, right? Broken in before it even happens in the way that the speaker prepares for it.

So I want to get your reaction to a trend that I've seen over the last, I don't know, 5, 6, 7 years, whatever. And it's less, right? It's— it used to be the standard keynote was 45 minutes to an hour, maybe an hour and 10 Q&A, like whatever. And I could recall not that many years ago, clients calling me freaking out going, oh my God, you know, they, they only— they're only giving me 30 minutes. They're only giving me 30 minutes. Only give me 20 minutes. And I say, okay, well, hold on, timeout. Let's take a deep breath. Like, You're getting the same fee. In most worlds, getting paid the same to do less, people would celebrate, but it's harder to get it there less, right? If you're used to having a certain cadence to build up the storyline or use this favorite piece of yours, whatever. But I think there is a trend where, you know, you're not gonna get an hour on stage or you're not always gonna get that hour. And how could you be punchy and effective? What are you seeing there in terms of that trend?

Yeah, I think it started with TED Talks, right? TED Talks, 18 minutes. And I think up until then, people thought 18 minutes maybe wasn't enough to deliver a talk. And then people get, you know, people obviously consume a lot of TED Talks and they start getting used to the fact that, hey, a talk should be, you know, 18 or 20 minutes. So we do have some clients, but you know, the majority are still in that 45 to 60 minute range. And you know, I saw someone did a post a while back saying like the 60 minute keynote is dead. And I think it was just supposed to be some type of hot take to get reaction. 'Cause certainly from what we're seeing, it is not dead. It's alive and well. But I think the key is, you know, as a speaker, you gotta be able to hold the audience's attention for whatever amount of time you're given. And you know, frankly, some are better at it than others. But you know, it's funny, we have also had clients who are like, oh, we only want 30 or 20 minutes. So they want to reduce fee. And it reminds me, I think there's an old story, but I think it's Mark Twain, right? Who said, You know, I was gonna write you a short letter, but I didn't have enough time, so I'm writing you a longer one.

Yes.

It's like, it's, it's almost easier, you know, if you're used to doing a 60-minute talk, that's easier. If you gotta turn it into a 30-minute talk, you gotta start taking things out. And it's actually more, in some ways, more challenging to, I think, to deliver the message in, in a shorter period of time. But it's, it's doable. And as a speaker, you know, within reason, you do what the client needs you to do. And so if they only have 20 minutes on the agenda, If you don't think you can do a good job in 20 minutes, you shouldn't take the gig. But if you take it, then, then you do it. And, you know, and then the key thing is you gotta take things out. 'Cause I've seen speakers go, okay, I only have 30 minutes, so I'm just gonna talk twice as fast. Right? And they try to cram an hour into 30 minutes and it never works. So you gotta be really deliberate. And if you got 3 main points in a talk, maybe you only have 1 or 2 and you figure out what the most important things are.

So the, so the answer is not to have 5 Red Bulls before you get on stage and try to fly.

Right.

Exactly. Probably not.

Yeah.

So I, I want to talk a little bit about, there used to be sort of a, I was a rule or just sort of happened where if you're a speaker and then you were a speaker that had a book out and then you're a speaker that had a book out that was, you know, acclaimed New York Times bestseller or whatever, it, there was a direct and almost immediate connection to your fee. And I, I don't know, I'm not so sure that holds true to the degree that it once did? How do you, how do you respond to that?

Yeah, I think books are still important. And as a, as a big reader myself, I, I, I like to think so. And certainly getting on, you know, New York Times or Wall Street Journal bestseller list can help, but it's not like, oh, I'm on this bestseller list, now I can charge X. Like, I, you know, I, I studied economics in, in my undergrad, which was a long time ago, and I don't remember much about undergrad or economics, but I remember the supply and demand curve. And I always think like, you know, in terms of pricing, if someone's really busy that they're basically having to turn down work and they're doing more than they want to do, that's probably a good indication they should increase their fee. But, you know, if someone's not as busy as they want to be, just because they have a book out now doesn't mean they should increase the fee because it's probably not going to make them busier. In fact, it'll probably be the opposite. So I think you should let the market dictate what you should charge. And, you know, I know some fantastic speakers who have not even published a book and are charging really high fees. And I know some bestselling authors who are not charging huge fees for whatever reason. And it's a number of factors, obviously. And fame is one of the factors for fees, without a question. Yeah. Bestseller lists can add to fame, but at the end of the day, to me, it's all about value. And are you delivering, you know, the value that people are paying for?

So as a fellow undergrad economist that sounded like, on the one hand, on the other hand, I forgot who, who was the quote of get me a one-handed economist.

That's right. That's right. Exactly.

Cool. As we start to wind down here, any other thoughts or things for folks to consider that are either in the space or thinking about being in the space, or, you know, you also find the longer you do this, that sometimes there's people in the, in, in the space, like they're like, I've lost my mojo. Like, you know, like what can I do to remain relevant? Like what, any, any Final thoughts?

Yeah, that's a tough one. I mean, it's, you know, I always say the speaking industry is a really easy business to get in because there's no barriers to entry. Anybody can claim they're a speaker or an expert in whatever, but it's a really difficult business to stay in and to endure over years and decades. And so, you know, I think constantly just refreshing your material, your content, your delivery, constantly renewing yourself is really critical because if You know, if you're speaking on the exact same thing you were speaking on 5 or 8 or 10 years ago, um, there's a good chance you're going to get bored of telling the same story, you know, for the 400th time. And certainly if you're bored of the story, the audience is going to be bored. So it's just a matter of just staying relevant, staying on top of trends, understanding like what is going on in the world, what your expertise is and how it relates to whatever happens to be the current situation. Things are obviously changing really quickly between technological changes in AI, geopolitical changes. Like the world is really changing now rapidly. And as a speaker, you know, and as a thought leader, obviously you've got to stick to your core expertise, but be able to apply it to a, you know, rapidly changing world. Yeah.

I think that's a great point because I think every thought leader has embedded in their work, you sort of evergreen principles that are the same regardless of what the stock market did today, what's going on in the world today. But then to stay relevant, they might have written a book 20 years ago. So I'm just making this up on trust, right? Well, we didn't have AI then. We didn't have remote work then. So how do you connect the bridge to things that are people staying up today in a way that says, well, actually the principles that I wrote about X number of years ago, here's how that connects to a remote workforce, or here's how it connects to feeling threatened that AI is gonna eat your job or whatever the case may be.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that, that's the key and it's just, and that, you know, it makes it more, the work more interesting for you too, right? Like, you know, you want to be able to, to me, you know, staying current and trying to anticipate where things are going and understand where, how your expertise can help whatever, you know, the organization or company you're speaking to is in the context of what happened, what's happening right now is, is really interesting. So I think that that's it, just staying relevant, constantly learning, constantly looking for ways to improve and, and, and renew yourself and refresh what you do. Is the key. And there's speakers who have done that really well and they just, you know, it doesn't matter. Age is, is a number, right? Like it's, sure. I know people who are, you know, 30 years into their speaking career and they're as relevant now as they ever have been because they're tuned into what's happening in the world.

Love it. Well, I appreciate it. I appreciate your time and, uh, so much good stuff there. Thank you, Martin. Appreciate it.

Thanks, Peter. Yeah. Great chatting.

To learn more about Thought Leadership Leverage, please visit our website at thoughtleadershipleverage.com. To reach me directly, feel free to email me at peter@thoughtleadershipleverage.com. And please subscribe to Leveraging Thought Leadership on iTunes or your favorite podcast app to get your weekly episode automatically.