#199 How I Created a Multimillion Dollar Coaching Program to Empower Women Physicians

Hey everyone. Hope you're having another great week. It's been a little crazy for me. I spent the last couple days traveling across the country, meeting people, ending up at different conferences. I'll share about it a little bit more in my newsletter. Definitely check that out. But it's been fun meeting amazing people like you, doing things like taking time out of their day to try to create, learn, grow, build their ideal lives. And it's been so inspirational. Look out for meetups in your area soon. But for today, you're going to hear an interview between myself and my great friend, Dr. Sunny Smith. She's a physician coach that runs the group Empowering Women Physicians. You're going to learn more about her and how she built this amazing business trying to impact the lives of our community, us physicians, to help us live better lives, figure out what we want, why we want it, and how to make it happen. So stick around and enjoy. Welcome to the Passive Income MD Podcast where we talk about creating your ideal life through multiple streams of income. If you enjoy hearing about this stuff, make sure to hit subscribe. Now, let's get on with the show. Sunny, how you doing?

Hi Peter. So good to see you. Always so good to talk to you.

Yeah, I love talking to you because your journey, first of all, is ever evolving, I'd like to say, but it's also the beginning of it. I still can't get enough about how you came to be, you know, who you are today. But I first want to start with people. Maybe I didn't do it justice. What is empowering women physicians? Just tell us exactly what is that group?

That is a great question. So we can be known at for our Facebook group. So we have a Facebook group that anybody, any woman physician can join. And we also have a podcast, retreats, a coaching program, etc. All of our programming is regarding, we say stop sacrificing yourself for others and finally enjoying this life you worked so hard to create. And so that looks different for everyone. And what we really want to do is to help people to know that they have autonomy and agency and self efficacy and they are not stuck and they have so many options because we are sort of indoctrinated in this medical culture that is very linear and leads us to kind of develop a learned helplessness. Like you can want something but the system won't change. And so you just have to show up and keep doing the same thing till you're 65, see more patients, da da da. And we're like, hey wait, you really have a Lot more choice than you realize. And so when you realize that you have choice, that alone decreases your suffering because you're like, okay, I'm choosing this life. I can choose something else anytime I choose, even though I don't know what it is right now. Like, a lot of people watching this probably are like, I don't know, it's overwhelming. There's so many things. But even if you just realize you have a choice and you can make a different choice either tomorrow or next day, next week, next year, or even start toying and experimenting with what you want in your life, then I think it opens a lot of doors. So we pursue physician wellness through that lens.

I mean, I know you had this really successful academic career. That was probably the path that you were on. When did all of that change for you and when did your mindset shift when it came to all of this stuff?

I think, you know. Well, of course, my story is generally that. I mean, I. It's always a question like, where do we start? How. How far back do we go, right? Because medicine literally almost killed me. Like, I know people say that figuratively or they mean it in a mental health way, but in my internship, I really did just start developing. I was a very healthy 20 something and developed neurologic symptoms, focal neurologic symptoms that we didn't know what they were. And the only way we found out what they were was that I developed status epilepticus and I was comatose, intubated in the ICU for a week. Didn't know my family. Didn't know if I'd ever wake up or if I'd be okay if I had brain damage. And so everybody can find that streaming on Amazon right now. Actually, the movie called do no Harm, I'm featured in that because that's a movie about physician distress and suicide. There's many opinions about that movie. But the point is that medicine really is a culture that pushes you to the limit of the human function, right? Like beyond how long you're supposed to stay awake. You can't eat or sleep when you want. You can't go to the bathroom when you want. The nurses all get to go. The rts all get breaks. Like, we just don't. We're just supposed to go harder and harder than. There's resident work hour restrictions. If you're attending, there are no workout restrictions, right? And even if you're in a clinic and don't work 36 hour shifts, it's still the way that we are expected to function. And not acknowledging Our own humanity and our health. So how did I get involved with it? It's like I kind of just through my own personal journey, have become an inadvertent spokesperson for medical training. Really can kill you or almost kill you. And mine is very visible because for most people it's a distress that you can't see. But like there's pictures and video because I happened to be at UCLA and so there was a film crew there, they were filming us for a whole year in a documentary series called the Residents. And so that ended up on international television at that time. So I've been in the physician wellness space ever since then. I was an educator, as you said, I was, you know, as an academic director responsible for personal and professional well being of our medical students. And yet so I would be concerned about their well being and meeting with them about their well being while overworking myself into the ground. Like all of us do, right? Like so many of us do, and particularly academics, there's really like a grind culture and an overworking culture because you have to do all these things in addition to clinical medicine. So when it really came to a head, so I was doing this work for decades, right, in a different way from the inside of the university. And then because I was doing so much work, right, you know, they gave me an accelerated promotion, six years work in three years time that was lauded and you know, as a director of many things. And then I got in this bike accident is sort of what happened that really brought me to a screeching halt. I was in Tahiti, broke my arms, broke my face, couldn't do anything, couldn't care for myself at all, and had to take a forced break. And so during that time is when I discovered a coaching podcast that people had recommended to me because I couldn't watch TV because I had a head injury, I couldn't read books because again, I couldn't use my arms at all. And, and I couldn't concentrate that much. So these podcasts, my, my husband would put these little things in my ears and I would just listen. And I learned that even when I couldn't control my circumstances, I could really control my narrative around it, what I thought about it, what I made it mean. And so that pause was really life changing for me. And, and everything that I thought that I couldn't do or that I had to do, I realized someone else would do those things, right? Like even if it was my own child dropping them off at school, if it was like rating the students, if it was writing the letters of rec, if it was any of the things recruiting the next dean, all those things got filled. And so when I went back, you know, I thought the accident was the worst thing that happened to me. And I was really upset that I got on that bike because I'm not very athletic. It was Mother's Day. I wanted to be in an overwater bungalow. But anyway, so I would say when I started reframing it, I was like, instead of why to get on that bike. Arguing with reality, the reality that was there. It's a waste of time to argue with reality. So then I learned, you know, I'm like, this could be happening for me. And when I go back to work, I can choose what to put back on my plate. And so if every physician watching this could imagine everything was wiped from their plate because everything was for me, literally everything was taken over by someone else because I couldn't function. And then it's like, okay, what would you put back if you had a completely blank slate, Knowing who you are now, right? With this is your foundation. And, Peter, you're a good friend of mine. I actually asked you this question yesterday, right? It's not like this only. This only comes up when you're in academics or when you're a clinician or when you're whatever. If you really had a blank slate and you knew everything you knew now, what would you put back in your life? So we literally had that conversation 24 hours ago. And I'm continually re asking myself this question, which, you know, I'm doing that right now in my own business. And at that time, I did it for the first time in academics. What would I put back on my plate? So anyway, then I just became more intentional about what I allowed in my own life. And then it was so effective for me that I decided that I wanted to help others because I saw all of my close friends and colleagues running around like chickens with their head cut off, basically, sort of, right? It's like, busy, busy, busy, busy, busy. And I was so still. And like, it doesn't have to be this way. You do not have to choose this. You do not have to comply. You do not have to be complicit in what they're asking you to do. Just because you're asked doesn't mean you have to do it. Just because you can doesn't mean you have to, right? And it's the same for your career and the same for so many of our careers, just because we can and we have all these talents and all these skill sets. Doesn't mean we have to say yes to all of them. It's sort of like this, especially for women. There's, like, there's service and, you know, people pleasing and just wanting to say yes. It's easier to say yes than say no in the moment, but in the long run, it's really not. And so the question started becoming. And for me, it was like, so which directorship? I had seven directorships at that time. It was like medical clinic director, community director, compassion director, clerkship director, whatever. All the things I'm like, which ones am I going to start letting go of? And which ones do I want to keep? And why? You know, what is most meaningful to me and why? So anyway, that was my journey. And as I said, I'm still continually, including today, looking at what continues to be most meaningful to me. What do I want more of and what do I want less of? And I think for most clinicians, physicians of any kind, or human beings of any kind, I think that's a really useful question. Like, if you really only had this year to live, for example, what would you be doing with your time? Right? And if you're not doing those things right now, the question is why? And if you don't want to make that big, giant change, you know, how could you get a little closer to it sooner than later?

Hey, everyone wanted to pop in here real quick to let you know that the annual Leverage and Growth Summit, I think it's our fifth one this year. It's happening on February 26th through March 1st, 2024. This is a virtual summit. It's for physicians. It is definitely one of my favorite events of the year. And the reason I love it is that it's all about stories. It's about stories of physicians doing some really amazing things outside of medicine, leveraging their medical degrees and all of that ambition and skills that they've grown and cultivated throughout their medical training, and then using it for some other venture. These are doctors that are creating their ideal lives, that are living life by design. We've had tens of thousands of physicians who have participated in this in the past, and it's such a cool experience. I know you're going to have a great time. So mark out that time, put it in your calendars, look out for it. And the best part is that it's completely free. It's a free summit. So plan to join us on February 26th through March 1st. Look out for that and see you there. One of the things you did say is that the thing you did decide to add on is helping other people help. Helping other physicians in this space. Like, how did you know what that meant to you? And. And how are you. How did you figure out what, like, what that looked like in terms of either a business, a practice, and. Yeah, just in terms of how'd you figure it out?

Yeah, that's a really good question. So the podcast that I was listening to, I listened to hundreds of episodes. I listened to every single episode over the period of months because I would just lay there, you know, not able to stand up or go anywhere. Felt my own. And then once I got to the current day, then was this training program made available. I was like, oh, maybe I should consider training. And this. The only person I knew in the whole world who was a physician, who was a coach at that time, it was 2017 when my accident happened. So it's been six years now. It's hard to believe was Katrina Yubel, who is also speaking in this summit. And so Katrina Yubel, she knows this very well, but I literally, I found out she existed and I told my husband, who you also know as well. It's like, listen, there's one pediatrician doing this, and she's not crazy, so I'm not crazy either. And so that's an important example of what is possible, right? If you see one person that you resonate with, you're like, this is possible. And that can be extrapolated into people's clinical lives and all these other things. Like, if you go part time, someone else thinks they can go part time, right? It's like, you have to see it to believe it's possible. So I just, you know, went to some kind of webinar and it was like, hey, we could train you to do this. Put a thousand dollar deposit. And I was like, well, I really should talk to my husband about this, but it's only a thousand dollars within a pod. It. So I did, and then I went and I trained in person, and then I did virtual training, and I started offering this service to people for free to see if it really was as impactful for other people as it was for me. I started to tell where's all my friends? And encouraging them to listen, encouraging them to do the practices. I even encourage my family, My family never really adapted, but my friends, some of them were very interested. And I. I specifically went to talk to and help strangers so that they wouldn't be biased, right? That they were just trying to be nice to me or like, you know, being good clients, and say that it helped when really it wasn't that helpful. So I helped people from all walks of life, from all specialties, with all problems for a series of months. And I was so confident in the tools that I was using because people came to me with hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt trying to decide what to do or with significant health issues and surgeries trying to decide what to do and just all. And like loneliness trying to decide what to do. So all kinds of things. So I was like this really, and I was doing it one on one and I was like, this really does work. And so during that time, as you know, I had decided because you can, coaching teaches you, you can create anything you want, right? Any result that you want. So the results I wanted to create my life were to create a beautiful retreat for people, for women physicians in Bora Bora. You know, I got my accident French Tahiti. So like to go back triumphantly and be like, look, I learned because of this accident how to pare back and make my life what I wanted it to be. And I want to show other people to do that too. So I, I do that. And I just did that last week, as you know, again. But that was one of my first offerings as well as one on one virtual coaching. And so I started by just, you know, growing my confidence. And it really, really worked in service. Like I was helping people earned no dollars. And that's how most businesses start, is you have to invest, right? You get a skill set, you practice your skill set, you gain your confidence. And then I started running ads and, and started a podcast and strangers would reach out to me and they, they saw themselves in me, right, and they believed I could help them, whether it's because I was in academics or because I was a mom or because, right, all the things that they were dealing with at the position that were stressors for them and they knew I got them. And really, I mean, it was like every single time, every single time it works. And so I did one on one until while I was a full time physician and on nights and weekends until, you know, there was no more space. And then I switched, I did that for one year and then I switched over to groups. And so I've been doing groups for years now. I have never found a person that this doesn't work for. Then the evidence started coming out, randomized controlled trials that this really does work. And so I felt very validated by the leaders of the physician coaching, sorry, physician wellness space, you know, Tate Shaniffel, Vicki Chocolate, Lottie Derby, the people who really are the leading edge of insisting the culture must change, the systems must change and individuals also must take control because we can't wait for the system to change, we have to do both. And, and so I felt very validated when the studies came out in jama. And then they've continued with, there's more randomized controlled trials in jama, there's more pre post studies. Something just came out yesterday in Journal of General Internal Medicine with coaching as a part of other things that people are doing for wellness. And you know, our, as you know Peter, our coaching program is the most effective physician wellness intervention that's ever been doc documented in terms of effectiveness, right. The amount of change we have very large effect size and in compassion, in decreased burnout, in increased professional fulfillment. So it's like really all you have to do is teach a physician, they have choice and be like what do you want to drop and what do you want to put more of? And then have them keep going through their life over and over like that. And we have a lot of tools that of course we use and methods that we use, but it's building a community and seeing other people just like you doing things differently and not dying. Right. They, they still are employed and, or they make their own business but like they still earn money, they still have a roof over their head. You know, bad things don't happen because when we left to our own devices, we think that if we step out we're going to fail. Like we all, we think we're one trick ponies, right? We see patients clinically, in person and I think with the great resignation going into medicine, it's just everything I think is going to be completely disrupted in the physician world. The way that they asked us to work in the past is no longer going to work. You likely know over a hundred thousand physicians have already left medicine. Last year, 117,000 out of the million in the U.S. it's like, it's just, it's not sustainable. It's not. So I think employers are going to have to respond to the demand of physicians, which is, I'm not going to do it the way that we've always done it. It's just the quality of life is too low. 63% of physicians are burnt out. It's, it's not sustainable. So anyway, that is where I am with our coaching business. I'm completely honored and floored and humbled to share these very sacred spaces, psychologically safe spaces where we do one on one and group coaching and you know, become one of the leaders in the space. And our company, my company is now, you know, in the top 1% of female owned companies in the U.S. i mean, it's crazy. I literally went, you know, from free clinic to Forbes and to Entrepreneur magazine. And it's funny because people say like, how can you do that? You know, underserved medicine and pre clinics and then now be running a multi million dollar company. And I'm like, it's, the skill sets are very similar. I think that physicians need to understand, right. We have skills, we are smart, we are adaptable, we can do anything in any emergency. We don't need a protocol like an np. Right. Because entrepreneurship, there's no protocol. You have to be willing to like go out on your own and figure out how to do it. And so I think my ability and history of thinking outside the box, creating a clinic in the basement of a church and just making it work year after year. How do you do hazardous waste permits? I don't know. How do you get insulin for people with diabetes that have, that are uninsured or undocumented? I don't know, but I'll figure it out. And so I think that skill set has translated really well into entrepreneurship. And so I think if people are going to go into entrepreneurship, because that's probably why they're watching this summit, is to think about different options is to, we have to like leave the perfectionism of medicine behind and just do the like iterative change scientific method test and get feedback, have a hypothesis, you know, see what happens, get the data, go back better informs, try over and over again. Hmm.

And what do you think is really set? I mean, now that you've talked to enough people about this, what do you think really sets apart the doctor who you know, is successful at making it? I'd say in a way I know you're never making, it's always a growth in progress, but kind of really finding themselves down the path and then the one that still ends up staying where they're at feel except like what's, what's the actual difference there? Or maybe some of the big differences.

Yeah, that's a really good question. I mean you said that I'm ever evolving, you're ever evolving. I think it's in many, there's many things that we could look at, but one of those things is embracing that ever evolving nature of ourselves. Because we tend to as physicians, without deliberate practice or intentional thought about this, we tend to think that it's med school maybe, well, residency, maybe fellowship and then attending and you're done developing as a human being. Like, you're going to have that same attending job for the next 30 years, right? Or more. And that's just not true. I mean, look at it's decades of your life. And think of us in our 20s versus our 30s versus our 40s versus our 50s, to understand that a physician in a career in their 30s may want something very different than in their 40s or their 50s, when they perhaps have young children, versus, you know, like, I think a lot of people are coming to me at this age in their 40s. Like I am saying, like, is this what we work so hard for? Like, we were kind of sold a bill of goods. This is like, where's the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow? And it just keeps moving, you know, So I think it's being aware that, you know, our red blood cells turn over all the time. Our hair is turning over all the time. Like, we are changing. Our brain is changing. What we want is changing. Our human needs are changing. What fulfills us changes over time. And so there's the idea of feeling stuck, which I think is very, very common for a lot of physicians, feeling stuck and trapped partially again, either because of debt or because they are used to their income. And so they think there's nothing else they can do that will preserve that income. So they live a life they don't want to live because of the income. They say, well, I don't like my job, I don't like my call. I don't like my partners. I don't like this. But the money, it's always but the money, right? And they don't think they can do anything else. So it's that stuck feeling. And I think that people feel stuck when they see their past and they project it into the future, right? And then so of course you feel stuck if the only thing you see in your future is your past. There's. You feel like you have no control. And so there is like, to. To create hope psychologically in, you know, PhD literature, you need to have the belief that it's possible, the belief that it's possible for you. And pathways thinking. Like the idea that you were willing to take many different pathways to get there. So when a physician doesn't have hope that things could be different for them, then I'm actually worried about a mental health issue. And if anybody feels that way that's watching this right now, we usually Recommend, you know, phq9 as a screening test for depression. Just like a mammogram. Is a screening test for breast cancer. Like it's Recommended by the U.S. preventive Services Task Force. Go to your doctor or take one online. Like if you don't have hope that things could be different then you're in trouble. And usually by the time a physician realizes that they are in distress it's usually much later than someone else would. That's a non physician because we're willing to put up with so much. So as I was saying it's really like what are. What are the differences of people who feel stuck versus are willing to go out? Sometimes it can be just be. It gets so painful that they're like forget it, I'm just gonna have to do something different. Right. But that's usually really really painful. Otherwise most of us are like stuck in this meh. This isn't really the life I would have chosen but it's what I was. It's what I have. And so it's the agency again. It's the self efficacy. It's the hope that you can make things different and then be willing to try and experiment and do a bunch of different things and know that it's not all or nothing. It's really, you know, it's both. And you can say it first then admit it different ways and you can do other things. Like your skill set is so valuable in society. Your brain, your knowledge or uniqueness as a human being. We can be contribute to society in so many different ways.

Well, I know that people are going to hear this. They're going to get something from this. I know this is for a message that really really can. Everybody can resonate with everyone can take something from. I know that people are going to want to connect with you outside of some way or find out more about what you're doing. Where's a great place for people to do that?

That's a great question. They may. I believe that they will be putting up our website here which is empowering women physicians.com and we always have some. There we go.

Yeah, we got it.

And on our website we always have free resources so we have like free coaching guides for instance. That is really. It's the same process that I've been walking people through for years. The process that again is the most effective outcomes documented in physicians in pre post studies of an intervention. And so they can walk themselves through these kinds of things. The types of things I've been talking about here today. We also have references that are available there. If people want to take the literature to not well for their own brain and just validate for themselves. This isn't an mlm. It's not a scam. It's not something that's going to end up on some Amazon special like in some kind of shady way. It's. It's really an evidence based intervention. It's a tool among many, many tools that we can use for healing and wellness and decreasing suffering. It's not the only tool. Therapy, psychiatry, you know, medications, many other things are available, but we have our references there. And then of course, they can come to the Facebook group, which I already talked about, but they can. Only anyone can have the guide because it's open and available to the public. But you have to be a female identifying physician to come into our Facebook group. So no NPS, no like MAs or respiratory therapists or dentists inside the Facebook group. That's just the screening criteria. And otherwise also open to the public is our podcast. So Empowering Women Physicians has a podcast of the same name. And we are always. It's not just me. I want to make that clear that, you know, it says Dr. Sunny Smith, empowering one of physicians. I want to make clear that we have many, many coaches. All of our coaches are physicians who are certified in the same methods that I use. And they are as beloved and as adored and as effective as any as myself or any of the other people. It's really a whole community of us who just want to bring back the humanity and the caring and the healing and the unique, special qualities of physicians that we all had that got us into medical school. Right? And then they kind of beat them out of us because we didn't have time for them in medical school. And they just went away forever, many of us. And so we're trying to recultivate and reconnect with those things that matter most to us.

All right, so what's one big tip that we have for people who want to follow, I guess, in your footsteps that may want to start a business? Maybe you want to create some sort of impact outside of normal clinical medicine. What's one piece of advice you have for him?

Such a good question, Peter. I would say start to allow yourself to. Start to think outside the box. Allow yourself to go to this strange and magical place as if you had a magic wand. Like, what would you create? And allow yourself to dream even if you didn't have to execute it. Just play. Like, go to that sort of more right brain rather than left brain place. Walk in the woods, go to the ocean. What would you do? And allow yourself to dream again? Without constraints and then see what's there. See what little kernels and nuggets are there. Like, do you like photography? Do you want to work part time? Do you want a six month sabbatical? Like, what are the magical things? Allow yourself to go there and then just consider taking one little tiny step towards it. And also super important. And surround yourself with other people doing the same thing. Because without a community, it's much, much harder to do it on your own.

All right. Such great advice, Sonny. Always love talking to you. Such wise words. I'm sure there's stuff that people can get a ton from. Hopefully people really enjoy this. Let us know in the comments below. Wherever you're watching this, Sunny, appreciate you appreciate all the work that you're doing for physicians out there, all the amazing work. I've watched all of it along the way and just been really in awe of everything you do. So thanks Sonny. Really enjoy this talk and let's talk again soon.

Thank you Peter. Thank you so much.

Bye bye. Enjoy the show. Let me know by dropping a review in the podcast app you're listening to us at. And if you haven't already, make sure to hit subscribe. Join thousands of physicians who are also on this journey to creating their ideal lives through multiple streams of income. Learn more at our website, passiveincomemd.com thanks again for allowing me to be a part of your journey. See you next time.