#32: How Coaching Can Help to Overcome Burnout feat. Jimmy Turner, MD

Foreign. Welcome to the Passive Income MD Podcast where we talk about creating your ideal life through multiple streams of income. I'm your host, Peter Kim. If you enjoy hearing about this stuff, make sure to hit subscribe so I can bring it to you every week. Now let's get on with the show. Hey everyone, hope you're having a great week. This is Peter. This week we're gonna be talking to Dr. Jimmy Turner. He's an anesthesiologist. He is the personal finance blogger behind the site, the physician philosopher. He's also a podcaster. He's a life coach now for Physicians and just an all around great guy. What he does with coaching is he helps doctors recover from burnout find the work life balance that they deserve. If you have no idea what that means, you're going to find out in this episode. He's also started something recently called the Alpha Group Coaching Experience. You're going to hear all about it, so enjoy this episode. Take care, everyone. Hey, Jimmy, how's it going?

Great, Peter. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, I'm excited to talk to you. I haven't had too many guests on this podcast yet, so I'm surprised I haven't had you on this thing because you have so much to share. I'm going to dive into your story today and I'm sure people are going to love what you're talking about. Let's start from the beginning. So people know you as the physician philosopher. Why did you pick that name, first of all? And let's talk about your journey and how you got up to this point.

Good question. So the physician philosopher for the better part of two and a half years didn't make a whole lot of sense and now all of a sudden it is. So I picked it because I was a double major in college. I was a philosophy and chemistry major, but I really just wanted to do the philosophy. The chemistry was for pre med stuff and then ended up going into medicine, becoming a physician. So my wife's an educator. Alliteration. The physician philosopher. It's just what we decided to pick when we were sitting on our couch staring at a computer screen searching different website names. So picked out that website with the idea of teaching people from the very beginning about financial independence, financial freedom, and about wellness with a focus on burnout. So I kind of had that from the beginning because it was always an issue. Burnout's always been an issue. The irony of it, of course, is that, I don't know, six months or a year into me writing about burnout and Using financial independence as a tool to fight that. I started to get burned out. And so, yeah, so what ended up happening to get to where I am today? It's a little bit of a story, but I basically got burned out. Couldn't figure out what was going on. I've always been a go getter from the outside. All anybody's ever seen is how put together things are. I was class president, med school president in med school, I was co chief resident. I won the Golden Apple for my first year as attending, which has never been done in my department before. I was just doing thing after thing after thing. I had a successful business. I got a great marriage. I got three kids that don't act like an, you know, total idiot all the time. And so, you know, they're, they're pretty good kids. And so, like, everybody sees all this stuff, but, like, I just kept getting more and more and more burned out. And then I ended up.

What did it look like? Real quick? What did you mean by burned out? Like, what were you feeling and how was it kind of coming out?

Yeah, so I think it was just kind of me getting further and further away from an identity that was important to me. I don't think that I was showing up as, as a dad the way I wanted to, as a, as a husband. Um, I wasn't as engaged at work. It became very objective. Like, this was just a thing that I had to go through, but I didn't want to be there. And even though I was doing a really good job taking care of people, I just didn't want to be there. I wanted control over my life. I felt like I had none. There was just no autonomy. And so what it felt like was just being in, not any control at all. And so what I would do is wait for the next achievement to bump me up, to keep my head above the water, But I was literally drowning. And to compound that, I ended up getting diagnosed with Graves disease. So I had anxiety, depression, and everything that came along with that and actually ended up getting at the very bottom of all this. I had passive suicidal ideation, which was an interesting experience. Got put on an antidepressant. And so all of this was happening while everyone else was seeing everything else was going on in my life. So I was the quintessential overachiever that looked like he had things put together, but really didn't. And I got to a point where I was just kind of tired of living that curated life that was fake. And I've always been a pretty honest person But I needed help. And so I ended up finding coaching. So in a roundabout way, my site's still about financial freedom, it's still about burnout, but it also has now another additional tool that helps doctors that are burned out or burning out or struggling in medicine, or thinking about the difficulties of balancing being a parent, a physician, a spouse. And so, yeah, coaching really helped me a ton. And so I decided to go into coaching myself to help other doctors that are in a similar situation or struggling or wanting to find balance. So the physician philosopher makes more sense now because coaching philosophy kind of go hand in hand, but back then it really didn't make a lot of sense.

Well, I want to know a little bit about how, because I'm sure there are people that are listening to this who probably relate to you and understand what you're feeling. And then you said you just jumped to, hey, I found coaching. What happened? How did you find coaching? How did you know that was a thing first of all? And how did you know that thing might help you?

Yeah, so I think that the first few people that mentioned coaching to me were actually you and Kenji and Letty from semi retired md and so they mentioned Sonny Smith to me like, I don't know, a year and a half ago because Sunny had a big interest in burnout. They knew that I wrote about burnout. And so it just made sense. We're both in academics, maybe we could collaborate together. And so we sent a message or two, but it never really panned out. And nowadays Sunny is my coach. The principle behind coaching is basically working on your thoughts. And someone started explaining to me as I dove into this and Bonnie Koo helped me, you know, in the same way. So I had like four or five different people kind of mentioning coaching to me and I was like, well, I mean, I'm pretty open minded guy. Like I should at least check into this. I started listening to some podcasts, I started talking to some people that were coaches. And it really started changing my perspective because a lot of medicine makes you feel like the system around us is just broken and that there's nothing that you can do about it. And what started transforming my thoughts was the system is broken, but there are things that I can do about it. So it's a both. And it's not like you either have to blame the system or blame the doctor. The system can be bad and need to be fixed and you still have individual solutions. Both of those things can coexist. And so I started looking into coaching. I dove into some stuff over at the life Coach school. And that's really where I started learning about it. And it started my journey. And then I ended up getting a coach myself and going through coaching. And it helped a ton of.

What did that look like? Kind of like on a micro level, when you talk to your coach, what kind of things are you talking about and how's that different from. I think people always wonder how that's different from therapy, per se.

Yeah, that's fantastic. Question. So the way that I explain this to people is that therapy? Because I've gone through that too. Therapy spends a lot of time talking about your past, how you got to where you are, the experiences that you've had, the things you've gone through, and how those things have resulted in where you are today. It spends very, very little time then looking forward. And so their ideas. If you can understand your past, maybe you can understand how to go about being okay with it. Coaching, on the other hand, says, great, I'm so glad that you went through all those things. Let's move on, let's move forward. How can we become who and what we want to be and accomplish the things that we want in our life and feel the way we want to feel? And so it's a much more forward looking kind of endeavor than therapy. I think they're complimentary in a lot of ways. So coaching is not therapy. It's not a replacement for that. It's very different. But what coaching does is says, great, let's talk about where you are and then let's talk about the thoughts you have going on in the back of your head. Because your brain doesn't really care what you think. It just cares that you're thinking. And so you have all these unintentional thoughts that you've never even questioned in your life going on in the back of your head. And so the way that I explain this to people is because. And I know you love golf, so you'll like the analogy, right? But it's like going to a golf lesson. So I went to a golf lesson two months ago, I think, and the golf pro is like, all right, why don't you just hit a few balls and then we'll talk. And so I started hitting a few balls and he's looking at me and he takes a video and we go sit down together and he shows me the video. And before he even says anything, like, I have an idea in my head of what my golf swing looks like, I know there are things that I need to work on my left arm doesn't stay particularly straight. You know, I gotta work on where the ball is in my stance. There are things that I know that I need to work on. I have an unorthodox swing. I know that, too. And then he shows me the video, and I watch the worst golf swing I have ever seen in my life. And the idea of what I thought my golf swing looked like and what it actually looked like when someone showed me a mirror of my swing was completely different. And to the point where the guy actually said, hey, you actually have to be pretty athletic to hit a ball that well with that bad of a golf swing. And so I laugh about it now, but really what he was doing is showing me, look, this is what you think you're thinking, but let me show you what it actually looks like, and let's go and fix it. And he actually gave me swing thoughts like, hey, when you go back, don't do this, don't do that. You're going to feel like you're doing something completely different. But I promise you, it's going to look and accomplish what you want. And so he took me from a very unintentional golf swing to a very intentional golf swing. And that is exactly what coaching does. So it's a mirror. Hey, this is what you're thinking. This is how that's causing your feelings, your actions, and your results in your life. Can we go from that unintentional thought that you have that's not really serving you right now to a thought that's actually going to produce the feelings, actions, and results that you want? And crazy as it is, you start to change your identity, and you start to become who and what you want to be. And just like I can hit a golf ball, peer it down the fairway now, because I fixed my golf swing, I have a lot healthier thoughts, too. And it helped me from where I was to where I am now.

I love how you explain that. I mean, I've gone through coaching myself, and I've seen the impact that it's had on my life. I'm glad you're explaining it because you explain it much better than I do. So I'm going to just have people listen to this in the future when they ask me what coaching is about. But it's crazy how if we had talked, we wouldn't have had this conversation. About a year and a half ago, I had no idea what coaching was. I never knew it existed in this kind of way. And I had really. You know, I never really thought that something like this could even help someone like, like me anyways, you know, because again, on the outside, everyone looks at me and a lot of people look at me and say, like, hey, you've got it all together. It seems like it, but there were a lot of things that were blocks. I mean, I don't know what it was. It was blocks in my mind that affected my relationships, affected my career, affected, you know, even my businesses and things like that. And it's just, it's been powerful to have somebody there to again, you're right, put that mirror up and say, hey, you know, this is exactly what's going on. It's kind of strange because you think you've got it. You know, it's taken a long time to get here. So I mean, it's not like we haven't worked hard and we're not ambitious and we're not capable people, but it's amazing how these small things just get in the way, you know?

Yeah, yeah. And I think that really, what the biggest kind of reversal, thought reversal that happens is when you understand your brain just wants to think and that you have control over what those thoughts are. And that the only difference between a thought and a belief is that you've told yourself that thought so many times that you believe it, that once you've done that enough times, you can actually take that neural pathway that's just been the way that you are for 30, 40, 50 years and change it to something else. And it just takes intentional thoughts that replaces the old ones that used to be there. But it's kind of crazy because this idea that there aren't really true and false thoughts, they're only thoughts that serve you and thoughts that don't is a very powerful idea. And when you wrap your head around that, you can build the business you want, you can build the relationships you want, you can build the career you want. It really kind of unleashes power. And the coolest thing for a burned out doctor or for doctors that are struggling balancing being, you know, all the things they are, is that it gives you the power back, like that autonomy that you feel like medicine stripped from you, all of a sudden you don't feel like that anymore. And so it's, it can be really powerful. Totally. Yeah.

I mean, do you think that, like, who's ideal for this? I mean, like, is there a particular type person that you've worked with? Uh, you know, do they have to be at the right place for this? Do they, you know, do they need to feel like, intense, like burnout is that the person that you're here to help with or kind of like at different stages?

Yeah, so I think that's a great question. So the answer is no, you don't have to be burned out at all. I think that coaching in general, so what what I offer. So right now the alpha coaching experience is, is going on. It's open for enrollment. What that involves is life, career and money coaching. So there's not really anything that isn't coachable. Like there's nothing that you can bring that isn't coachable. Like, you know, like you, it's not like you woke up today and you're like, I'm the perfect husband, dad and doctor and entrepreneur. Like you can always get better at all of those things. And so everything is coachable. That said, you know, I think that because of my story and where I come from, the things that I really enjoy coaching people about personally are burnout, definitely business coaching for entrepreneurs. And then I also, you know, really just enjoy helping people balance all the different hats they wear. Cause I feel the same pressure as a, as a doctor, a dad, a husband. And so really the only requirement for the coaching program that's open right now is that you're a physician. And so that said, it's group coaching. It's one on one coaching. It's got a variety of things and people probably don't even know what those words mean. But yeah. So the ideal person is someone that wants to be a better version of themselves. That's the ideal person.

You think that people who find their way to coaching, it's just a certain age that people get to. Because I found that, I guess I'm in my mid-40s now, getting close to it. And I don't know if you want to call it a midlife crisis or whatever. It's like you hit something and you're like something needs, like something needs to change or something. And I guess it's funny because you hear about it all the time and it's kind of a joke out there and then it happens, right?

Totally.

Do you find that most people are kind of in that stage of life as well? Or is there, you know, again, all over the map?

I think it happens at different times for different people, man. Everyone's path is different. But you know, it's kind of like the idea that all roads lead to Rome. I think that everybody eventually in their life realizes that they could benefit from something like this. It's just a matter of when you make the mental space to feel like Change is an acceptable thing because a lot of people say, oh, I want to do X, Y or Z. But they don't really want to change. Most people are really comfortable being where they are. And so it takes getting to the point where you're either forced to because you lost a job, something bad happened, or because you have something that you're like, man, I really want this one thing. What do I need to do to accomplish X, Y or Z? And once you're in either of those polar extremes, that's the point at which coaching's like just the natural solution for everyone else in the middle. You kind of hope those people figure it out sooner than that. Cause you don't need to get to either one of those things to really benefit hugely from coaching. But yeah, I'm 35, so, you know, I'm almost 10 years your, your junior, I guess, based on eight years.

But close.

Yeah, I round up, I'll say anesthesiologist. Right. And so, so yeah, but I think that for a lot of people, that's their story, right? They had like a pivotal moment or they, they really hit the, hit the brink and so then they found coaching. But for, for a lot of people listening, it doesn't take that.

Yeah. Why do you think it's like I'd never heard of it before and now you're seeing all these physicians in the space, not only as coaches, but physicians in the space getting a lot of coaching. And it's so funny because, you know, five years ago I never heard about it, I'd never heard of, I probably didn't know a single physician that was getting coached. And now a lot of the people that I see besides me that are extremely successful are all getting coached, you know, and will attribute a lot of their success to coaching. And it's so funny because I've never heard about that. Why do you think it's happening so much now versus like five or maybe I just didn't know about it.

So. No, I think you actually, I think you personally actually played a pivotal role in this. And for those of you that don't know me very well, I'm a very honest, blunt, straight shooter. So I'm not just, you know, blowing a blowing smoke up of Peter. But the thing is that there were a few physicians in this space. Right. You had Katrina or Bell. You know, Sunny Smith is obviously doing world changing stuff where she is. And there were some, and there were a lot of other physician coaches that existed, but they weren't necessarily as prominent. But then there was this thing that happened called the Leverage and growth summit, where 10,000 doctors or 10,000 people came into this summit, a lot of which were doctors, and you brought coaches in. And then all these people got exposed to coaching for the first time in their life. And then Sunny's program blew up. A lot of those people became coaches, and. And now all of a sudden, like, it's just. It's just like this is the point at which we're at the bend. Like, it is just going to go crazy from here because people are starting to realize how powerful coaching is and how helpful it is. But, yeah, I think you actually played a pivotal role in what we'll look back on in terms of the history of coaching and physician worlds, because coaches in, like, other places, executive coaches for big firms, executive coaches for even hospital CEOs and chairs and stuff, that. That's actually been around for a little while. But coaching for the regular doctor, that's actually pretty new. And it actually. It's so new that there are like 140 doctors that are coaches and have gone or going through the life coach school right now. And like, 140 of them are women. I mean, like 99% of them. So it's.

So why is that? Where are the men?

Well, I think that's because women are just smarter than us. But, no, I don't know. I don't really know. Have a great answer for that.

Well, you're changing that.

Yeah, maybe there's a little more in tune with wanting to get help, because I think that Brene Brown, who's a great researcher in shame, has a great podcast, great books, she would say that for men, shame mostly comes from asking for help, like looking weak. We don't want to look weak as men. And so the idea of asking for help for most men is shameful. For most women, it's needing to look like they have everything together. They're the perfect wife, the perfect doctor, the perfect bomb, the perfect everything. And so guys, we don't feel shame that way. We feel shame in terms of looking weak. And so I think that most guys, and this is born out in studies, don't ask for help. But now there are three or four men, you know, getting certification coaching. They all coach in the program that the Alpha Coaching experience. And so we're trying to change that so that there's now coaching for everybody. Because previously coaching was not only by women physicians, but it was mostly for women physicians. A lot of women physician coaches just work with women, which is great. That was their niche. But we're trying to change it and make it accessible for everybody. If you're a doctor of any kind, no matter what your sexual orientation is, no matter who you are, like, you know, we're trying to make it available for everybody. But yeah, I think that what you did in leveraging growth, really, I didn't.

Set you up for this question, by the way, but I appreciate that.

Oh, no, I mean it. I really. So Jim actually asked me, you know, I was on, I was on Jim's podcast the other day and he asked me the same thing and I had the same exact answer. So. So you can go and listen to that if you don't believe me. I'm telling the truth, that this is just a setup.

Well, that's awesome. I mean, how do people. I think. So the question I've gotten before when people have asked me about coaching and this sort of thing is like, how do they find the right coach? I mean, is there such thing as a right coach? And like, you know, do they interview them like they would interview a doctor or something like that? Or like what process should people go through to figure out who to get coached by if that's something they're interested in?

Yeah, the tough question or the tough answer is to go interview people. If you want one on one coaching and that's all you're looking for. The easy answer is to go to a program like the Alpha Coaching Experience where you get to pick your coach. So there's weekly group coaching for the 12 weeks that you're in the program. And then you get eight one on one coaching sessions as part of that. And you can pick whichever coach you want. They've got descriptions, they've got links for the specific coaches that you want to work with. And so you try one out one week, you don't love them, guess what, pick someone else the next week. Or maybe you find the person that's a perfect fit, you stay with them. Or maybe you want to try eight different coaches over eight different weeks to give different perspectives. So if you join a coaching program or coaching experience, then you don't have to deal with that problem quite as much. But yeah, if you want just one on one coaching, you need to find coaches that are a willing to give you free consults is what a lot of them will call it, and then interview enough of them to find the right fit. But it's really up to you. It depends on what you're looking for. Because I think there's a lot to gain from actually having group coaching and Seeing other people get coached in front of you, which is what group coaching is.

Oh, is that what that is? Yeah, I think for people, they want to know.

Yeah. So you're getting, you're getting coached in front of somebody. There's one, you know, just, just like we're talking right now, it's just two people talking. That's the only two people you see. And there are people in the comments section that, you know, build a community around that, of support and suggestions and encouragement. And you see that, oh my God, I'm not the only one going through all of this. And it's very normalizing and very, you know, just helps you realize, like, you're not alone. And so there's a lot of benefit in group coaching. So I think that the hybrid route where you have both group coaching and one on one coaching is personally the best route to go. And I've benefited from both myself. But. But yeah, if you wanted to go one on one only and just have coaching sessions with a single person, you'd have to interview people to find the right fit.

Well, then let's talk about the mechanics a little bit about how the alpha coaching program actually works. You said, you mentioned a little bit. You come in. Is it a defined period of time? Just to clarify.

Yeah, so enrollment ends on November 2nd at midnight. I guess we'll make it your time. So it's a little bit later. It starts November 18th. So it'll, it'll actually end up going for like 13 weeks because we'll miss a week during the holidays just to, you know, for people's family purposes and stuff like that. But yeah, so it'll end in, in February, but it'll be 12 weeks of group coaching and then you have the eight one on one sessions. There are also video lessons inside the course. So on November 18, when you, when you walk in, you've got self coaching tools. There's a book that I wrote for physicians about self coaching for physicians that you'll have access to to read before it starts that when you walk in the door, you already have an idea of what coaching is and what the thought model is and how to use it and how it's beneficial and thought distortions and you can kind of hit the ground running. So we really want to set people up for success. So generally speaking, you got those 12 weeks, the eight one on ones, and then some other additional stuff that's available, but starts November 18th.

All right, awesome. For those who are listening to this or watching this, you're going to find a Link either in the show notes or in the video around this, wherever you see this. And so I'll make sure people know about that. Again, I've seen a huge impact in my life from coaching and it continues to pay dividends off. You know, today. I mean, Leveraging Growth Summit, the pimdcon. You know, these conferences would never have happened actually without coaching. I mean, it's funny, I had so many blocks and reasons why it would just not work. I mean, I just told myself all the time these things would not work. And it really helped to have somebody next to me who was just kind of coaching me through that. That's all it is, coaching me, removing those blocks, making me realize that, you know, there are many more reasons why it would work. And yeah, and it's been powerful and still continue to pay dividends, not only in my business career, my family, my relationships. And if anybody's interested in it, I mean, I would, I would highly encourage them. I'm the biggest fan of coaching, so I would highly encourage them to at least explore the idea and see where it might take you. Now, Jimmy, let's talk about your life now. Like, what's it, what's it look like? I mean, obviously you're all jazzed about the coaching business and that sort of thing, but is your wife happy about this?

Yeah, totally. Yeah, that's obviously the most important question, but yeah, totally. And before, before I talk about that, I just want to echo what you're saying. Like, the biggest stumbling block is getting started. And so that's why, like, you know, on the Physician Philosopher podcast, I always talk about, you know, start by starting, start now. And that is the biggest problem for most doctors, whether it comes to starting in real estate or passive income or an entrepreneurial pursuit or going part time or making changes or throwing giant conferences that everybody ends up loving like you did. All of that requires you to get out of your own way. And in order to do that, you have to figure out what thoughts are preventing you from doing that. So I completely echo that. But yeah, totally. So my wife is completely supportive and appreciative of what's happened. It's been a big 180 for me personally in our marriage and in life with kids. But I think more importantly, she's just seen me career wise, kind of find fulfillment, contentment. I was always struggling with this arrival fallacy that someday I would accomplish X, Y or Z. Someday I would come and attending. Someday I would join the white coat investor network. Someday I would do whatever. And that that thing was going to be the thing that was going to make me happy. And every time I'd accomplish something, no matter how big it was, it never made me happy. Six months later, I'd be just where I was before. And so now I've learned to enjoy the journey. Now I'm very content with where I am. I'm still striving for goals and looking for progress, but those things aren't going to determine how content or happy I am. And so I think that that's been the biggest benefit that my wife has seen for me personally, and that obviously impacts our marriage and me showing up as a dad.

Well, I think it's a great place to end it. Thanks for being vulnerable, sharing your story. I think it's awesome, obviously, what you've done with this, obviously taking a tough time in your life and really turn that around to really help impact others and bring value to other people's lives. So thanks for doing that and good luck with the program and I hope so many people check it out. I know they will. I'm excited by it and I'll be sharing about it wherever I go. So. All right. Thanks, Jimmy. Thanks for stopping.

Peter, thanks for having me on, man. Really appreciate it.

Take care of Enjoy the show. Let me know by dropping a review in the podcast app you're listening to us in. And if you haven't already, make sure to hit subscribe. Are you part of our community yet? Join thousands of physicians who are also on this journey to creating their ideal lives through multiple streams of income. You can join us on our Facebook group Passive Income Docs, and you can always learn more at our website, passiveincomemd.com com thanks again for allowing me to be a part of your journey. See you next time.