#93: Investing in Farmland for Passive Cash Flow ft. Artem Milinchuk

Foreign.

Welcome to the Passive Income MD Podcast where we talk about creating your ideal life through multiple streams of income. I'm your host, Peter Kim. If you enjoy hearing about this stuff, make sure to hit subscribe so I can bring it to you every week. Now let's get on with the show. Hey everyone. This is going to be a fun interview. I'm so excited to talk to Artem Milenchuk. He's a CEO and founder of a company called Farm Together. I've had my eye on this company for a while and I'm just glad we could make this interview happen. I'm going to read his bio here real quick. He has over 10 years of finance experience in food, agriculture and farmland. And prior to founding Farm Together, he was an employee. Well, he was employee number one, actually, and CFO VP of operations at a company called Full Harvest Technologies. It's a big B2B platform for buying and selling produce. It's out there and now has a post series A. And he previously worked at the Ontario Teachers Pension Plants, Sprott Resource hold, and just so many other places. He has a wealth of experience in this industry. He holds an MBA from Wharton and a BA MA in Economics from the Higher School of Economics. Artem, so happy to have you here. Good seeing you.

Thank you, Peter. Great to be on your show.

Yeah, I mean, your, your bio. I could have gone on forever, I think, but I'd love to hear just more about you and, you know, ultimately how you ult certainly got to Farm Together. We're going to get into that story a little bit, but tell us a little bit more about yourself if I'm missing anything in the bio.

Absolutely. So you. Born and raised in Russia and then I moved to Canada in 2007, where in Toronto I worked for close to 10 years in a variety of roles, but always the kind of touching. Natural resources, food, agriculture and farmland. And one thing about Canadian investors, they're actually quite innovative. And so farmland is still new to a lot of people. But Even back in 2013, I was already looking in farms in Canada and Uruguay out of all places. And so really the idea of Farm Together is about a very sort of common story, which is solving a problem for oneself, where it was solving a problem for me personally, where I actually couldn't invest in farmland despite investing professionally. And then seeing that farmland is such a great investment for a lot of other more institutional players as well, but seeing that it wasn't really available available to them for different reasons than it is for retail investors. And I know, today we'll focus on retail investors, but really that's the background. And I moved to San Francisco in 2016 to work for Full Harvest, which is a Series B company now. So they're growing very quickly in a noble mission that they have. And from there, I just got really inspired by also the mission of farmland and what it can do for. And we'll talk about this, I'm sure, but things like climate change, sustainability, healthy food equality. So it's just such a, you know, when people have to eat and drink water, which farms oftentimes combine the two. And so it's just such a cool space to be in where everyone can relate to it. It's so vital, you know, you know, nothing not to throw any shade, but, you know, you're not doing NFTs or whatever the latest craze is. It's something that's going to be around for a long time. And so I like building my personal and professional portfolio in my career on something that is long term, that is stable, that's going to be there for many, many years to come.

Okay, let's. Let's dissect that a little bit. I think it's a cool story, obviously, of you immigrating over to Canada, doing all this, but how did you first get introduced to the idea of farmland? And you talked about, I guess, why you're passionate about it, but, like, how did you realize it was a good investment to make?

Let's see. So even my. My first roles, my first jobs were around food. And as a junior finance person, you kind of get thrown on some file some sector, and then they pigeonhole you and they keep putting you there. But for me, it was really. I loved it. It's such a. Again, an industry that is very realistic. And I like that, that it's something that is undisputable, like, we all need to eat. But the really idea of farmland as an investment, I think hit me in 2013 when I was at Sprott and we had investments in Canadian farmland. And it just kind of blew my mind as I keep learning about it, that there's this huge asset class literally under our feet, and yet so few people were investing in it. So that's really when I think the first seeds were planted and then they grew from there.

I mean, why do you think it is that so few people, like, know about it? I mean, it's funny because I actually heard it, have heard about it, but I've heard about it, like, in the context of, like, billionaires. Right. Some of These billionaires like Gates and all these guys are now getting into farmland. And it's funny because that's the first time I ever thought about that and heard about it. But it sounds like something that you have tried to figure out how to get the normal retail investor to get into. But why do you think that is? People haven't heard about it.

Well, I think there's a few answers to this, but I'll just say that no one knows exactly. And it blows my mind to this day. So as they say, everything new is just a well forgotten old. And nothing is new under the sun. And so land for most of our history and for civilization has been how you measured your wealth. You know, you had your livestock, your lands, your gold. You go all the way to, you know, Old Testament and they'll talk about farmland. And most of us were farmers for most of our history. Us was founded by farmers or expanded by farmers, you know, coming, getting land through the homestead act, kind of moving more and more west. And then suddenly everyone thought about it, right? And you talk to someone, you say, I'm a farmer, I'm in farming space. And they'll look at you and they'll be less surprised if you tell me, are you an astronaut? It's just such a thing that no one has really somehow this experience with. And it goes into so many issues about rural and urban divide, urbanization, aging a farmer. But if I were to pick a few themes to give you kind of more academic answer. One is I think emergence of alternatives is a recent phenomena. Up to 10, 20 years ago, stocks and bonds, there was no real estate, no crypto, no nothing, right? It was good old stocks, bonds. If you bought individual stocks, you already were a little bit edgy. And if you bought real estate, you were on the cutting edge of investing. And then companies like Lending Club came along, real estate companies, crowdfunding. So it all changed. So there's just a lot of interest in that. And I think because of when you think about natural pools of innovation, well, you need someone that has experience with multiple verticals. And so real estate, you know, everyone kind of gets it a little bit. And that's why there's a lot of real estate investment platforms. Farming, not as much. And so for me, being from finance, being from tech as well, and then having spent a lot of time on agriculture, I just have this natural kind of Venn diagram that most people don't have to be able to put a lot of pieces together that we'll talk about. Tech is critical to how farm Together goes about its business. And so I just think there's not enough people that have that intersection of different levels of experience to be able to go and do something like what we're doing.

And now you talk about again, it's kind of like the forgotten sector. We all fly over it at some point. Farmland.

We see the circles.

Yeah, we see the circles there. And I'm always like, what's going on? Yeah. And it doesn't seem like it's involved in the whole tech world. And so it's something that at least myself that I've never really even thought about. But what's the market look like for farmland and all of this investing Just to put it into perspective.

Yeah. So some fun facts. It's a $3 trillion market in United States which makes it the third largest real estate market after single family housing, which is a behemoth that tens of trillions of dollars. And then multifamily housing at about 2.9, $3.1 trillion. So it is actually one of the biggest real estate sectors. It is huge. There's about 2 million farms out there split between pasture land, permanent crops. So it's your trees, your bushes and the raw crops. So your corn, soybeans, things like that. About a hundred. Sorry, about $100 billion worth of farmland is expected to change hands every year. And that's because the aging of farmer average age is 60. Kids don't want to farm. So before you know, another answer to your question of like, why haven't we heard about farmland before? Farmland would pass on from, you know, parents to children. Now kids don't want to farm. And so a lot of land is becoming available for the first time. And even kids that inherited and go like, well, now suddenly I have this $3 million farm and all my portfolio is like $100,000 of stocks and then this huge one farm. I should diversify, I should sell it and build a sort of a traditional portfolio. So yeah, it's a vibrant market, I think increasingly so. One theme that's really important to highlight and that we had farm together care deeply about is farming. And farmland is very ESG centric. ESG is practically baked into the asset class. And so right now for institutional investors, for everyone with a stickler with ESG mandates and retail investors.

Can you explain that a little bit? ESG mandates, what that means?

Oh yes, absolutely. So ESG stands for environmental, social and government governance. And it's basically a sort of catch all phrase for saying that you want to do well while you do good or do good while you do well. And so basically it means that now investors care not just about the returns, but also what the underlying investments do with their money. And part of it is making sure that your investment does well for the environment.

Yeah, no, I think that's important to a lot of investors today. There are some, you know, there's like a moral social component to not just the way people invest, but the way that people shop and buy and everything like that. So I understand why farmland is at the intersection of that. You know, I do follow a lot of like real estate cycles. Like you said, it's like the third largest real estate market market I've watched single family, I watch multifamily. And people tend to think that right now that we're kind of near an end of the cycle, people are worried that it's over inflated, that we're in a bubble, that we're overheated. But I know that every sector tends to go through its own different cycles and they may not, I don't know, overlap. Where do you think farmland is right now in that whole investment cycle?

You know, it's a great question and I will answer that question. I'm not going to avoid it. But just for your listeners, keep in mind, as they say, making predictions is hard, especially about the future. So take it for what it is. So when we look at the cycle in farmland, we actually had a strong run up in farmland prices after the financial crisis. So 2008 to kind of 2012, 13 had a big run up in prices. And then from 201314 to 2020 we had sort of this, you know, very healthy, kind of flattish, not flattish, but very healthy market where you had kind of 6, 7% returns on farmland. And so overall historically farmland has appreciated by about 5.9% the year since for the last 50 plus years. So it's a long term stable, kind of steady as she goes asset class. This year we've seen double digit land price increases across most of farmland driven by two components, low interest rates and just a lot of money being printed. And then just the cycle where because of higher corn prices, because of just high longer term expectations for a lot of commodity prices, farmland prices follow suit. So if I. Well, how we think about it right now is that we are on the upswing of the cycle. And while real estate look, some houses have run up a lot and as interest rates rise, asset prices tend to come down. Now the thing about farmland that is unique though is that it historically has been one of the most resilient asset classes in periods of high inflation, even better than gold. And so you have now two factors. So you have rising interest rates, but because of inflation. And so demand for farmland, especially from our investors, as an inflation hedge, I think is going to drive, if not strong price increase, then at least a resilient performance versus other asset classes.

That's so cool because I mean, many people listen to my podcast, know what I do. I'm like the ultimate hedge. I look for ultimate diversification. I look for as many asset classes, classes or investments that aren't really correlated with each other. And that's been my goal. And so it's been really fascinating to learn more about farmland. If someone like me just wanted to get into investing in farmland, like what are my different options?

Yeah, and you're absolutely right to look at farmland if you want ultimate diversification because farmland has very low correlation to almost every asset class. Highest correlation is to real estate, about 0.4. And even that has been breaking down in the last two years, especially when the pandemic hit and suddenly New York apartment that seemed to be like safe as T bills became anything but. But to answer your question, before Farm Together came along, there were very few options to invest in farm. So as a retail investor, you only had two public REITs. That's it. So two public stocks. One was more focused on is on raw crops, so corn, soybean, and another one on permanent crops or tree nuts, apples. And then they were rent only model, meaning typically it's lower risk, low return. You had kind of more tie into the public market as well because it's publicly traded stocks. You had no say on types of properties there or on the leverage. And look, those products still have their place. Absolutely. But what Farm Together does, and I think we'll get in that in a little bit, is you have much more choice. And the same time you can build a diversified portfolio as well. Because we don't expect everyone, of course to have in depth understanding of every single crop and region. But yeah, look, besides the those two public stocks, unless you were very rich and you could invest in private farming funds, you really didn't have a lot of options. And look, I know physicians are, you know, well off, but I don't know if they're that well off.

Yeah, plus they don't have the time to figure out how to operate these type of things. And I think that's the, that's the problem with a lot of these investments. You know, people can get into some of these investments, but again, do they have the time and the energy and the effort and the expertise to be able to actually operate and manage that well. Which is, I think, why so many people who are listening to this in our audience, they're looking for more of that passive right income because they, you know, they're good at their day jobs and that's probably in some ways the best way that they can create capital quickly.

Right.

Use their current experience and knowledge to build capital there. But then they want to find other places to put it that, you know, will grow over time, hopefully produce steady cash flow. And so when it comes to farmland, I'm just curious, like, what do the returns kind of look like and what have you seen over time? Because I know you've been doing this now for years. What are your investors or investors just in general seeing in terms of returns from cash flow? What does that look like versus appreciation, meaning just selling and making a good lump sum at the end. What does a typical look like?

Yeah, absolutely. So within farmland, we typically have two types of offerings. So it's raw crops, which are your corn, soybean, field. They're like not a one to one comparison, but sort of like the investment grade bond in the bond world. They're stable, they're long term. The cash yields typically net of all FEES are around 2 to 3% and we expect 4 to 6%, sometimes higher price appreciation. And this is a 10 year type hold. And those farms are in really good demand. They're something that I think for investors are first of all a way to preserve capital and have a healthy yield. But this is not high flying tech stocks. This is not crypto for them. This is the part of your portfolio that you say, look, this is something that is unlikely to lose me money. This is something that will do well in periods of inflation and recession, which is exactly what we're seeing right now. And it gives me stability. So that's kind of one side. And then going a little bit to the right on the risk reward spectrum, we have permanent crops and those will be your tree nuts, your apples, those will have cash yields. Sometimes they can go as high in later years as 10, 15% or higher. And then the total returns are around 10%. So you'll have 3 to 5% cash yield over the life of the property and then 5% or so price appreciation. And those can be, sometimes we have deals that are as high as 15%. They're uncorrelated to most of the market. And the investors that they're looking for a bit more risk and a Bit more of a punch. But they still want that exposure to farmland. They still want to invest in crops that have structural tailwinds. For example, almonds, walnuts, pistachios, not so very healthy. New varieties of apples, organic apples is like the healthy, healthy stuff. Yeah, right.

Okay, so I guess this is all fun to hear because again, this is so outside of my world, but this is really fascinating to learn. Like when somebody makes an investment into like one of these investments, like how long is the hold period? And like what is there? You know, when we talk about real estate, we talk about liquidity all the time. Like how, you know, when is there, how long is there money in the deal? Is there any options to liquidate that? And what does that typically look like for these type of investments?

Absolutely. So the whole period typically is 10 years. Farmland is, it's not a short term flip at stock. You need to hold it long term. That's when it does best. And so we encourage our investors, of which we have now over 1300, to be long term holders. And most people are okay with it. We are working on secondary liquidity options that will allow you to sell your stake before that 10 year hold period. But nothing to announce there yet. However, do stay tuned.

Okay, I'm just wondering, how does Farm Together, how do you guys actually choose which farms to invest in? And how do you set up these opportunities? What are you using on your side? What kind of data are you seeing? What kind of technology? We talked about that. You said you're using technology. What are you using to figure all of that out? To bring good investments to people like you and me? Well, to really people like me.

Yeah, that's a great question. And I think we could spend an hour just talking about it. So I'll try to keep it concise. You know where Farm Together is very different from crowdfunding platforms, Is that a lot of our view on the asset class overall is that one of the major reasons it hasn't been opened up is because of a highly fragmented market that makes it hard for capital to be deployed in this market at scale. And so we're building tech to analyze and underwrite a $5 million farm with the same dedication that you would do for a hundred million dollar farm with the same level of analysis. And you need to do that because actually Most farms in US are farms under $10 million in value. So there's not that many large farms. And so what you see with the large Farmland funds, of which there are a few, is that they go after large deals they don't have the tech to really be able to do 50 farms. And that's what you need to do to bring farmland to everyone, which is our kind of, our mission is to open up this asset class to everyone. So the tech is, it starts from either finding farms for sale or farmers looking for capital or being able to quickly react to farms that are already on the market. So this has anything from satellite imagery to soil maps to county data sets, to area imagery, to on site farm data to macroeconomic data. So it's hundreds of data sets that through our tech called Terra, we collect into one central place where then our engine allows us to really filter and do the initial underwriting of the farm. So one important thing we underwrite, we analyze every farm ourselves. If you look at a lot of other crowdfunding platforms, they will have what's called a sponsor. So you and I can say, hey, we're flipping houses now. We're going to build this house, we're going to take it to Platform X. And Platform X will say, well, we looked at these guys, they seem okay, here's the deal. You invest as, analyze with us. We give a lot of information on the deal for investors to analyze, but I hope they also will trust our team's track record where we have over 100 years of investing and managing farmland. So I guess in short, to answer your question, we do use a lot of tech, everything from machine learning to natural language processing to imagery to automating of data sets and document generation. But then that information is provided to investors. You can read about it in depth or just look at the key points, make it very easy on the website to understand what those risks are and make a decision. So a lot of our investors, they tend to diversify across multiple farms and they trust our underwriting that if we present an almond farm or an apple farm, that we look through a lot of farms, which we did, and we did our due diligence and analysis.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's important to obviously trust the platform and rely on the expertise of the people on the platform. But at the same time, I'm still, when I walk into this thing and I look at the platform, it all looks, a lot of times these deals, they all look good if you just look at the numbers. So I know you said diversify is one way that people kind of mitigate some risk by diversifying across different investments. But we probably spent a whole episode on this as well. But what's like one maybe or two key things to look for to Say, hey, this is probably, you know, this would fit well with me and my goals and objectives. I will tell you when we look at multifamily or real estate, again, like you mentioned, there are sponsors there. I just look at the track record of the sponsor and I'm able to get access to that. Like, what are we able to get? Like, when, you know, we look at your platform, we look at those deals that can honestly help me figure out, you know, is this right for me?

Yeah, absolutely. So when you go and look on our website first, there is a learning center that can just tell you a bit more about what to look for. But let's say you don't want to do that. You're like, all right, I trust this guy that just want to learn a little bit more. Let me take a look at what farm is offering right now. So when you go on the farm page, we have a section that talks about key, key factors of the deal and why it's attractive. And then we have age, a risk reward scorecard, where typically it's eight different factors. Things like water, is there, debt on the property, prices, how well do we know the operator, which is kind of analogous somewhat to how well you know the sponsor. That allows you to quickly see where that farm falls, how risky it is and make a decision. So some people, they might say, look, I actually want very little risk for farmland. I want something very de risked. And they will mostly invest only in rock groups which have no debt, which again is safe and stable deals. And you can see that on that farm page. So I would say, look, if you're only looking at a few key factors, then besides, again, trusting us and our team looking at that risk chart is a good way to quickly get up to speed.

Got it. What do you think the big risks are, I guess, to the industry in general when you're looking at it, are there any things like if I. Economic factors, political factors, these kind of things that maybe might give you some concern just so that we know what the risks are on the other side?

Yeah, absolutely. So look, if you think about farming, it's interesting because in some way there's perceived to be a lot of risk. But when I think about risk, I think about it from two perspectives. One is my academic finance perspective, which risk is defined as volatility of the underlying asset. You take standard deviation of the prices and the higher the deviation, the higher the risk. That's the more academic definition. And on that farmland has started a deviation of about 6.9%, which to compare is Actually much lower than real estate and somewhat higher than bonds, but not by much. So it's fairly low risk asset. Another where thinking about risk is more code streetwise which is is this going to lose me money? That's actually after many, many years in finance, I came back to this.

That's probably the most important thing for most people.

It's going to lose me money. And so farmland really has had in the last 30 years only 2, 3/4 when the index went slightly down. So there are a few cases when farmland even decreased in price because again it's such a stable long term asset. And that's because again, it comes back to the point that we all need to eat. There's a limited amount of land and it's decreasing and population is increasing. So there's those long term trends. But as you dive deeper into risks and we think specifically about us, about the crops that we do, of course we look at things like trade wars, for example. We always underwrote a fairly conservative case of the trade war of US and China where we don't assume any resolution. As we thought about the prices for land, very important to look at the purchase price of land versus comparables. And that's something that we aim to always show. Sometimes there's actually few comparables. But are you buying at a good price if it's in places like California? How safe is the water situation is one of the few ways land can lose value but loses access to water or if you don't have farms to farm, which is why we invest in areas that are prime farming areas. It's not. I mean all farms are in the middle of nowhere to you city boys. But it needs to be in the middle of somewhere for farming where there's a lot of other farms. So it's not kind of this weird stranded asset that is five hours away and no one can get to it. We look at crop prices, we're looking at almonds, pistachios, walnuts. What price are we underwriting? Is it in line with 10 year historical average? What is the long term demand and supply look like? Things like that. We look at the cost structure as well. How much does it cost to farm this area specifically? So there's a lot of different analysis that goes into it. Currency risk because US is a net exporter of ag products, things like that.

Yeah, no, that's a good list. Thanks for sharing that because I think for a lot of people that again, this is all new to them. So this is helpful for me. I mean one thing that I love about, you know, when I did read, you know, I've looked at your website quite a bit, looked at what you guys do. Again, the mission comes across really strong and I think that's really compelling for a lot of people. And I know you talk a lot about sustainability and you talk about these kind of things. Like maybe you can give us a little bit more information on like the farmland's role in the whole climate crisis, you know, because obviously that's something we're going through. How does that play? How does that play into it?

Yeah. So ag is responsible for about a quarter of GHG emissions. Now, a lot of it is from livestock. But you have several aspects of how farmland plays into the climate crisis. So there is the negative ones, which as you using fertilizer, kind of how you farm, you use diesel, you use fuel, you have carbon emissions. But what's unique about farmland versus probably anything else, honestly, is that farmland and farming done in the right way can actually be a carbon negative. And it's called regenerative agriculture, where farmland can capture carbon, burn carbon credits and keep it in the soil. So there's still science to be done and practices to be standardized and how it can be done. But we are very bullish on that. So Farm Together is enrolled in the leading harvest standard, which is a new industry wide standard for objective measuring of sustainable farming. And it's related both to things like are you using less water, are you more mindful on how you use fertilizer? To things like are you treating your work as well? To what role do you play with things like preserving the local ecosystem, leaving a few trees for migratory birds, all these different things. And so the way we think about farming long term is that we want to finance and bring in those cutting edge farms, the organic farms, the new variety farms, the regenerative farms, sustainability farms. And investors can rest assured that every farm on our platform falls under that sustainability standard, leading harvest. So when you invest with us, automatically you are investing in the future of sustainable farming.

I think that's awesome. I mean, I know that you, because of your mission, everything you're doing, you guys have experienced a good amount of, I mean, a tremendous amount of growth over the last couple of years. What do you think is going to happen for your company? Like, where are you guys going from here in the next three, five, ten years?

We want to be the best and the largest farmland investment or asset manager in the world. We want to bring this asset class to all investors. And then on the other side of this equation is we want to bring scalable, creative, transformative capital to farms so that they can build those farms in the future. Because farmers are lacking capital right now to transition our ag system to 21st century or 22nd. And so in the next three years we'd like to offer investment products accessible to everyone. So accredited investors, non accredited investors, international investors, as well as larger pension funds, endowments, institutions. We want to have a secondary liquidity market so you don't have to hold for 10 years. Although again, we encourage you to think about farmland as a long term investment. We want to bring on way more regenerative deals to the platform. And then 10 years we want to be the largest, we want to have global offerings, not just us, but places around the world and to really drive meaningful change as it relates to sustainable farming, to climate change. Where what's really interesting to me and that still blows my mind a little bit to this day, if you do farming in a sustainable regenerative way, it actually long term increases the value of the land because you end up using less, fewer inputs and the value of your land increases substantially and then you get paid for things like carbon credits. There's large companies right now like Pexico, General Mills and others that are looking to source from regenerative farms. So just like you have that, you know, USDA organic label, you'll have regenerative label on food. So food will be, it'll be now important where it came from. So we want to be part of that solution where one day you look at your almonds can be sustainably farmed from a farm, together farm. That's something like that. So that's the, that's the golden vision and then the 30 year vision, which generally didn't ask me about, but we really see this engine we're building and the platform is something that can help with broader what's called natural asset finance. So it's not just farming, but forestry, aquaculture, preserving the wetlands. So thinking about the planet as place where we have natural assets, I mean, such a funny way to think about it, but putting a price on nature sounds maybe cynical, but if you don't put a price on it, then you're just going to use it as if it's endlessly renewable. And so yeah, I think, I know that I am and I know that our team is just excited by the long term vision and mission as much as we are by bringing a good investment to investors.

That's awesome. I know that people are going to hear this. Some people are going to really connect with Some things you said they're going to be interested in finding out more about this asset class. Where's the best place for people to reach out and find out more about Farm Together?

Farmtogether.com okay. Email informtogether.com we aim to reply to everyone within 24 hours who at least tell them that we got the email. You can also schedule calls with our team. You can, you know, if you want to speak with me as well, they'll, they'll let you know how to get in touch with me. So I'm happy to do that for, for your listeners. And then there's also a lot of materials we put out on the website, going on shows like yours to get the gospel of farmland out there. And yeah, look, I think it's exciting that you're interested in it, Peter, that your listeners hopefully will be interested in this because it is the oldest asset class and the most forgotten and at the same time, most exciting asset class right now.

Yeah, I mean, it's been extremely informative for me. I know I've been wanting to get you on this show because I want to find out more about it personally, selfishly, I think. But I thought it might be a great opportunity for other people that were looking for potentially steady cash flow, hedge against inflation, looking to diversify their investments, which I'm looking to do. And so I'm just glad you can come here today and share with us. I really appreciate it. Thank you for your time. Again, congrats on the amazing success so far. Farm Together. And yeah, I mean, wish you the best of luck on your mission.

So hopefully that's not against you so much, Peter. Thank you.

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