Does Polyvagal Theory Explain Why People With Addictions Make Such Bad Choices?

Have you ever had a moment or a situation in life where you knew that you should be reacting or responding differently, but it was kind of like your body took over and you didn't quite have control of your reactions in that moment? Like, maybe you were arguing or yelling, and you could even hear yourself yelling, and you knew you needed to calm down, but you felt like you couldn't. Or maybe you shut down completely and you couldn't do anything about a situation. Or maybe you notice that you're just running away from a situation and you know you need to deal with it, but you keep having an impulse to just get, get out of there. Or you could be like me, and I definitely have a strong freeze response. There are just certain things that happen where it's like I'm a deer in headlights and I can literally hear my narrative in my head telling me what I should be doing or saying, but it's like I can't even move. I can't even say the right thing. It's like I feel frozen and stuck. Well, if you've had experiences like that, and especially if you tend to have experiences like that, you're really going to like this video video, because we have an expert on here to talk to you about polyvagal theory, which is all about how the nervous system dictates how we react in certain situations, especially if we've had some trauma in our past. So I want to introduce you to Justin from the podcast Stuck Not Broken. He's going to explain to us all about polyvagal theory, and he's going to help us connect the dots between that and, and addiction and even to codependency. So, Justin, poly vagal theory. Just hearing the term makes my head want to explode because it sounds like super sciency. I don't know what I would want to call it. Like, it sounds like it's too much. Can you, can you break it down for us in, like, regular people terms? What in the heck does that even mean?

It, it is super sciency. And I, I, I think there's ways to explain it that aren't overwhelming, and so that's what we'll do. But I do want to acknowledge, like, it is inherently an academic and biological thing, that, that is really it. But it applies to so many different fields that us therapists and psychiatrists and doctors, teachers have, like, scooped it up and said, oh, my gosh, I can use this. And I think in the trauma realm especially, it's been very, very relevant and really embraced. But the basic idea is polyvagal theory is. Is the science of human connection. It's the science of how we connect to each other, but also how we respond to danger. And it's a mammalian thing, not just humans, but we'll focus on human beings, but it's a mammalian thing. How we. How do we respond to danger, but also how do we connect with each other? So polyvagal theory lays out, just to keep it really simple, that there's basically, our bodies can be prepared for defense or for connection, for safety. So we. We have specific biological neural pathways, circuits, pathways that are responsible for connection, but also for danger. To, like how we respond in connection or how we respond in danger. That's really the very bare bones basic idea is safety or danger. And then your body adjusts to those. Those contexts, and that fundamentally changes how you behave, how you think, how you feel. To get a little bit more narrow, we go, there's not just the safety possibility, but the defense. And even more narrow in defense, we can react to things biologically. We can be prepared for running, fighting, or shutting down. So fight or shutdown? Freeze and shut down are different. I think we hear the word freeze a lot.

So most people are pretty familiar with fight, flight, freeze. Right. So it's. It's sort of this biological state we can get in. And we move in and out of that state multiple times a day. Right. Based on what's going on.

Yeah.

How does that relate to trauma?

Well, so I want to. I want to parse out our words a little bit here because it's really important to kind of fine tune what we're saying and what we mean. So, yeah, flight, fight, freeze is just the common. Like this has something to do with trauma. You see these words out there all the time. And you'll see other words that they all start with F, like flop, faint, fawn. I don't know if we could swear, but there's an F word that. There's a swear word that starts with F. It's the F word. Like, so all these that I've seen out there that have something to do with trauma and how people respond to trauma, they always start with F and they just kind of exist out there. But polyvagal theory is. Is more focused and it's again, about those biological responses that we go through. So flight and fight are sympathetic responses where we mobilize. And so it's. I prefer people think about it as mobilization. So not just running away or fighting, but just. Are you existing in a more mobilized state right now? You and I are pretty much in stillness. But I don't know about you, but when I do these things I have a little bit of like anxiousness. I have a little more energy in my system. Yeah. So even though I'm sitting still, I still have this like mobilized energy in my system. So I have a little bit of probably more flight. Not really. That doesn't mean I'm like getting up and running away. I'm not like super anxious, but I, I noticed I have a little more energy in my system. So mobilized. And then the other one would be shutdown, not freeze, but shutdown. Shutdown is this like limp collapse where we potentially like full on could like pass out and sort of like play dead or death pain. And in political theory we refer to it as immobilization. So there's a potential for organisms to immobilize in the face of life threat. So shutdown is different than freeze. Freeze is actually a mixed polyvagal state. A mixed state where we have, we have sympathetic flight fight active plus shutdown immobilization. So they're both active at the same time. I'm going to freeze. Yeah, yeah. And I'd interviewed Dr. Porges and I'd asked him about this and he clarified that really what we, we say freeze, we. These terms get mixed up. But shutdown is a limp collapse. Freeze is. Porges, by the way, created the political theory. I don't think I, we had mentioned that freeze is more so shutdown slip, collapse. Freeze is a stiff immobilization. So shutdown is a limp immobilization. Freeze is a stiff like paralyzed, like freeze frozen headlights.

Like.

Exactly, exactly.

Yeah.

Yep. I mean like this. So how does this connect to trauma in a major way? You know, free shows up, you know, I'm not going to go into details, but can show up through numerous sort of assaults and traumatic incidences. It could be something where someone's forced to immobilize or they perceive they're immobilized or they cannot mobilize. Like maybe they're, they got in a car crash and they are stuck and they, you know, they are in pain and there's fires and, but they can't get out of the car. So they are forced to immobilize in that instance. But their body's also prepared to run away and get out of that situation. So that, that could be as a very easy example what freeze could look like. But just like day to day if like I have kids that like to scare the heck out of me. Right. And so when they jump out of, you know, around the corner and they scare me, which they've gotten very good at. I used to do it to them all the time, but now they do it to me. My body like tenses up. I freeze just a little bit. Not like a traumatic way, but that's kind of like day to day. Like, these things still exist within us. The potential to go up and down, what's called the polyvagal ladder, to go up and down through these different states. Totally exist within us day to day, even in mundane, silly situations. But yeah, also in these situations that are more traumatic. And so to take us one step further, to connect it to trauma, the polyvagal theory. From. From the viewpoint of the polyvagal theory, trauma is not just like the thing that you went through. Trauma's not the event, it's the impact of the event. So you and I could be. We'll go back to the car crash. You and I could be in a car crash. And like, you walk away from it and you take a deep breath and you go, oh my gosh, I can't believe we just went through that. And you're ready to hug someone and just be like. And laugh it off. Maybe. Whereas I may be like really stuck in a free state. And maybe it was the same. Same incident, but it affected me different. That's the basic idea. I might be left in a chronic sort of anxious, maybe flight state for quite a while and have a hard time getting in cars. Whereas you were able to laugh it off and you're, you know. So it's same thing fundamentally, but different impact. So trauma is the impact, not the event.

Oh, I like that. So it would be kind of like if you pictured two cars crashing, one might come out with a dent and one might come out like total. Yeah, same crash.

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay.

That's the basic. Yeah, but this, this brings us back to the first thing that we said, which was this is biological. So when I say it's the impact, not the event, I'm not saying like, it's just how you feel or it's the behaviors that you do. I'm saying that your body, on a very autonomic nervous system level, so on a very neurological level, is frozen in a state of. Well, is stuck in some sort of defensive state. Like literally can. So you cannot self regulate out of that back into a safety state.

It's not something you can help. It's not something that, you know, if you're stronger, this won't happen to you.

Right? Yeah, exactly. It's automatic Okay, I like that because we often, often, often look at these trauma survivors or addicts and we say, well, what's wrong with you? Or there's some sort of moral issue or a strength issue. And it's like, no, it's, you know, I, that person went through something or is going through something and their body is prepared for defense and they just kind of got stuck there. It doesn't mean that they can't be helped. It doesn't mean that they can't do some self regulation, doesn't mean that they're stuck forever, but they're, they're stuck in a state of defense. And that, that's what trauma is sometimes with addictions.

And we've used this language in addictions for ever. But like, you know, I'll talk to families and stuff and I'll say, you know, when you're in addiction, you're really stuck in the primitive part of your brain. You're stuck in fight or flight, you're stuck in survival mode. And that's why addiction doesn't play by the normal rules and why you can't motivate. Somebody has addiction the same way and that kind of thing. It's like their brain state is completely different. Can you talk to us a little bit about that?

Yeah, that's literally very much true. So when you or when we, anybody exist in a defensive state, they have less access to the higher functioning functions of their brain. So critical thinking and the ability to empathize with others and ways, pros and cons, all these things, remember things accurately, all of these higher functioning brain things are off the table. Like you, you, you kind of lose access to them while you're in that defensive state. Really becomes more of a brain stem. Like the, all this polyvagal stuff is related to the vagus nerve. But really the most important aspect of this is the brain stem because that's where all these decisions, these body based decisions, I'll call them, are happening in the brain stem. And then from the brain stem the signals of safety or defense are being sent to the rest of the body, but also up to the brain. Not just the body, but also up upwards to the rest of the brain. And so if you're in defensive state, you don't need as much critical thinking. You need to escape, you need to fight. And so your body, but also your brain is optimized to find danger, detect danger and take care of it or get away from it. So yeah, all those like wonderful cognitive functions that we love, they are less accessible because that Person stuck in a defensive state.

So like when, when you see somebody who's addicted and, and you see them making all these like really bad choices and you know, seemingly like, why would you run your life? Why would you, you know, mess up your marriage or your career, your kids? Then a part of that answer is because they can't fully access the part of your, the brain that lets you think through that kind of thing. Is that what you're saying?

Yeah. Their ability to think critically and to weight pros and cons, like they're probably seeking out, especially initially once they got into substance use as a means to deal with whatever or not deal with maybe whatever they're going through. Actually, I would say I think it's someone's best way of coping. Like, I don't, I don't advocate for drug use as a way to deal with your problems, but I believe that alcohol, drug use, all kinds of addictions are probably that person's best attempt to deal with whatever the heck is going on inside of them or not deal with but like cope with maybe to reduce the intensity of it. And that's what, in polyvagal theory we call that a behavioral adaptation. So that could be a full on addiction that might be cutting for someone, that might be picking at the cuticles on your, on your fingers. It could be hair pulling, it could be being angry and yelling at your kids. It could be a whole bunch of stuff. It's like you can't deal with what's inside of you. Okay. And so then you figure out some way to not solve it, but just kind of like it's just less intense, you know, or maybe that maybe when you're high or when you are drunk, like maybe it does feel like this is no longer a problem for me right now, at least temporarily.

Right. Sort of like.

Yeah. So it might be.

Or numb it or something like that.

Yep. It could be a numbing, it could be a distraction. But some people say like, so contrast.

That maybe a little bit with. Because you talked some also you briefly mentioned the connection state because that's a different safety say. Yeah, safety state. Okay.

Yeah. When you're in those safety pathways, once those are activated, you can then connect. So flight fight is mobilization, shutdown, freeze or immobilization. Safety is connection. And you cannot, you cannot truly, genuinely connect with other people unless you have access to those biological pathways. You can kind of fake it, you can, it can kind of look like you can mask that you're doing things, but it won't be like a genuine I don't think connection with you go.

Through the motions of it, Right?

Absolutely. And we all like, we all do that. When I chit chat with my co workers, like, I don't really want to. I just kind of do, you know?

Right. Yeah.

And so. But when I'm feeling like truly like connected, I want to go up and hug people. I want to smile. I do things like when I smile, my, my eyes. Not just me, but all of us, when we smile, our eyes, they crinkle on the sides, our facial muscles go up. So there's all these biological things that happen within us that cannot happen unless we're in that safety state. So when I'm just like chit chatting and trying to get through a conversation about the weekend or whatever, I don't do those things. I don't have genuine smiles. I don't have that. I'm not going to get closer to that person and want to hug them. I'm just kind of like, okay, yeah, all right, get it. I want to move on. But when I come home and see my kids, when I visit my family, it's like I want to get closer to them. Not just that I want to. Like in my mind I want this to happen. But my body feels this compulsion to connect and that comes from the safety state.

So there's this, we. There's this saying that's been around for quite a while in addiction recovery. And I say it all the time to myself. And the saying is connection is the cure for addiction. Or sometimes I say connection is the opposite of addiction. And I think that really lines up perfectly with this polyvagal theory because it's talking about you can't have connection when you're up here in these states or you're down here in this state. You have to be in this sort of optimal zone. And when you have addiction, you can't even access that optimal zone.

Yeah.

To let the process happen.

No, I think you're totally right. Connection, I think is a. And it's what we do as therapists. Right. A big part of what we do is I'm here with you. I can make eye contact. I'm not going to judge you. I have a full arrange of my voice I can have. It's called vocal prosody. I can go up and down and when I talk in a flat monotone voice that indicates that I'm dangerous. I'm in a dangerous state. So all these connection pieces, it's called co regulation. All these co regulated pieces are in kind of in a Sense healing. I don't like using that word, but it kind of is. Because when I'm able to provide. Yeah, when I, When I'm able to provide those things, what happens is that the other person who maybe is in a defensive state, they're through a process called neuroception, but they're able to basically pick up on my cues of safety or the therapist or their, you know, their loved one, their friend, their pet dogs are really good at this. So we, we mammals, we. We give off these cues of safety as long as we have access to our safety state. And if we do that, if we do that, then the other mammal, the other person picks up on them and hopefully they can pick up on them and that will help them to climb their polyvagal ladder into their own safety state. So, yeah, it's very much. Is healing or I don't want to say cure or anything, but like healing. It's very much healing. It's a big piece of this, having that connected, those connections around you. And I think with addiction, tell me if I'm wrong, but isn't like support group and mentorship and maybe that's too more or an AA kind of model, but, like, that's pretty darn important.

Right, Right. The connection needs to come from somewhere. And a lot of people do get it from like AA12 step. There are other places to get it, but the point is to get it right. And I. Yeah, for my listeners that you're listening to Justin, you guys listen closely because he's giving you the fancy talk, the clinical way of saying to you. What I say to you is like, you gotta get your energy right, because when your energy's not right, you mess up their energy. That's how my people are used to hear me say. And you just gave them the science behind it.

That's, that's, that's the, that's the objective kind of nerdy way of putting these things. What I would encourage people to do is hopefully respect that within them is that capacity to connect. It is still in there. And if you're. If you're a loved one of someone who is going through addiction, I would hope that you still know that that person has that capacity to connect. It's still in there. It is probably extremely difficult to access. It's not a. It's not something you can will yourself to do. I don't think I haven't come across that, but I, I do believe it's still there.

Can you train yourself to do it? Can you?

Well, what, what you can do. Kind of what I'm getting at is like, if you can first respect that the capacity is there, then, then it's like, well, where does it show up? Because it, it, it is there. It, it does show up somewhere. And I think that it can be through big things like feeling connected to a family member or a therapist or someone in a support group or something. Like you could, you might feel maybe you don't recognize it in the moment because we're not usually very mindful of these things. So I guess that's kind of what I'm asking people to do is to bring a little bit more mindfulness of when do I feel actual connection. And in the high school I work at, I asked this and they're like, I don't. And I'm like, well no, there's. Who do you feel some level of trust with? Who do you feel some level of like, I can just kind of, I can hang out with them and not feel like I'm in danger. Like, who in your life do you have? And those kids will eventually be like, oh, there's the campus security monitor, they're actually really cool. I like hanging out with them. Or there's that one teacher. I'll chit chat with them for 10 minutes after class. And then they don't judge me. Moments of connection with your pet or with somebody in your life where you, the guards do come down and what I would invite you to do is to notice that and experience that. And that that's just, you know, a little bit of, a little bit, just a little bit of mindfulness. So is, are, are there people in your life where you feel or you can notice there's less defense and maybe even full on. I do feel connected and I do feel a sense of safety here and then like experience that. So respect that it is there. And then look for those times where you actually do feel and it could actually be the other option here is like, let's say, okay, if I was no one in your life, you have nobody who is able to provide that for you? Well, you know, what is it you do? Hopefully there's something you do in life or that you're interested in where you do feel less defense. Maybe you're really into art or poetry, cycling, softball team. I don't care what it is as long as it's not harmful to yourself or others. Like what do you have in life where you feel present and you feel in the moment do those things, but mindfully, like really experience it. And I think that could Be helpful by itself.

And there was this phrase that I heard recently which I just grabbed onto probably more than anything else. And the phrase was. And it's related to Polyvagal, but the phrase was story follows state.

Yeah.

To me, that was probably the most powerful statement. Can you talk to us about what. What that means?

And the idea is the thoughts in our brain. Not just the thoughts, not just the words, but the images, the memories. These things follow the state of our autonomic nervous system of our body. So when we are in a state of safety or state of defense, that changes how we think. It changes what we think about. If we're. If we're in a safety state, let's do like. Let's take the. Try and take the perspective again of like a family member of someone who's, you know, struggling with addiction. When that family. Family member is in their own safety state, their thoughts are going to be probably more empathetic and understanding. And part of that might be taking responsibility for their part in this system. Right, but part of that could be as well. I think part of safety is. Or part of the safety thoughts is not just taking responsibility and having empathy, but also making clear decisions about this is what I'm going to do about it. So all that could be from the safety state. Whereas from a defensive state, their thoughts might be more judgmental and why won't you change? And I'm sick and tired of this. And those might be valid questions and feelings, but the thoughts will be far less empathetic and more judgmental and shaming. So it's. Each of these states have their own thoughts, and the flavor of those thoughts changes based on what state they're in. That, that. That's the basic idea of. Of Storyfell estate.

So it's kind of like if you, you know, if you've ever met somebody who's that you call that you perceive as being sort of paranoid and they constantly feel like, you know, everybody's sketchy or everybody's after them. Then what you're saying is they're probably staying more regularly in a. In a certain biological state, which is.

Yeah.

Making them see the world that way. Is that following you?

Okay, yeah, because. Yeah, because not just our thoughts change, but the way we experience and filter the world changes based on what state we're in. So that person who has. Who's, like, very anxious and ruminating and thinking about the future and worrying in a negative way, that person's probably stuck in, like a flight state. The person who is blaming and killing, judging and accusing. They're probably stuck in a fight state or. Yeah. And that. And the person that is just like, I give up on my life. What's the point? They're numb inside. All that stuff. All that would come from, like a shutdown. A shutdown state. It feels like. It feels differently than someone who's warm and empathetic and ready to connect with you. It has a fundamentally different feel. And so you pick up on those cues. And now some people can tolerate that and they can be there with that person who is in a defensive state, and they can provide co. Regulation and compassion and kind of ride it through with them. And that's what we do as therapists. A lot is, I'm here with you and I can tolerate this with you, and I'll kind of be this container. Right. But other people may not be able to do that for whatever reason. You know, that's fine. I don't blame them. So when they're around that other person that is in a defensive state, they'll pick up on that and they'll shift to their own defensive state as well.

Right.

So it's like they'll lose access to their safety state. They'll lose access to their empathy.

So now we have this feedback loop happening.

Yeah.

Between people, which is very reinforcing of your narrative. So if you feel like people are dangerous.

Absolutely.

And you have this defensive energy that's going to prompt other people, Subconsciously. Don't even know it, to give you back that kind of energy, which is then reinforcing and reinforcing.

Yep, yep. And. And those defensive states will probably play out based on their life history. So if you're around someone who's in a defensive state, if you existed in a defensive state, like a. A flight state, you'll probably go to your flight state and just like, leave the situation. I can't deal with this. I'm out of here. Whereas if you expend more time, like a fight state, you'll probably, I would assume, go to your fight state pretty quickly and be like, what's wrong with you? Knock it off. So, yeah, it's. You'll have two people in a defensive state just sort of like circling each other. It's so important why one person in that system makes a change.

Yeah.

Toward. Toward safety.

Yeah. It's kind of interesting because when I think about that, when you said some people can tolerate another person's defensive state more easily, immediately I started thinking about, well, I can do that really easily in my office in the session.

Yeah.

You Bring it. I got it. I'm going to regulate us, me out in the world. Totally different. Totally. Because I feel safe because I'm on my home turf and I'm like, I got this. Is that what it is? And then so I'm like, I'm cool, bring it. Or whatever, I got this. But. But I don't have that same capacity just out in general.

It's so different. I don't know about you, but do you ever have people. If you're like dysregulated or if you're feeling too anxious or irritated, do people ever go, aren't you a therapist? Like, shouldn't you know better than this? Or shouldn't you? Do they ever. You ever hear that?

I haven't, I haven't heard that. But I usually keep most of my dysregulation pretty internal, to be honest.

Oh, okay.

I'm pretty good. Yeah.

Well, I have a, I have a 13 year old daughter that loves to throw things at me when she can. Not literally, but like if I'm getting irritated at her choices, she'll be like, aren't you a therapist? And it's a different context. The answer is like, yes, but I'm not your therapist, I'm your parent. And so it's going to sound a lot different, but it's different context. I think our state changes based on the context that we're in. Not just the literal environment, but in a therapeutic relationship, there's someone coming to us and saying, I need help. And as compassionate people, which I think we typically are, I think we're more inclined to be like, okay, I got you, you know, versus at home, like the dishwasher just has to get emptied. Let's go.

We're managing a hundred things at home and in the office. We're managing. Yeah, right?

Pretty much. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So when my daughter's like, I'll do my chores later, it's like, no, we, we gotta go, let's go. So it's, it's just fundamentally like a different context, different relationship, different experience, different environment.

Yeah. So our capacity can change based on our own state. It can change based on our environment. It can change based on how many things we're dealing with at any one given time. There's so many pieces that come into play. It's amazing that we ever regulate, to be honest.

It really is. It really. No, you're 100, right? I, I marvel at like if some, if we can get to that place of safety and maintain it and build the strength of those pathways to be able to do it again the next day. Yeah, it's a pretty incredible thing, I think.

Where can people learn more from you and find out more about polyvagal theory?

For me, go to justinlmft.com I have a ton of stuff there. Lots of free stuff. My podcast, stuck, Not Broken. But the hub of everything I create is justin lmft.com and then if you're. If you love this polyvagal stuff, I have. I have a lot of that. I mean, most. Pretty much everything I do is centered on polyvagal theory. But if you are like the nerdy type and you need to get the primary sources. Dr. Stephen Porges, and I think it's Steven Porges dot com, I think.

Okay. Because some people might be like, what does that even mean?

Yeah, thank you. Thank you.

That's okay. So find you there. And then also, what is the name of your podcast? Because it's a really good name, so I want you to say it.

Stuck, not broken. Stuck.

Yeah. Such a good name.

Yeah. Yeah, it's. I don't believe people are broken or defective. I don't think people are born with these behavioral adaptations and whatnot. I think that we get stuck in our development or we get. And. Or we get stuck in trauma based on stuff we've been through. So, yeah, stuck, not broken.

I like that. Because it's just sort of hopeful.

Exactly. Yeah. To me, there's totally a message about. I'm glad that you picked up on. Yeah.