When a Drunk Loved One Oversteps (and they don't even remember it)

Hey, everybody. Amber is at a training, so it's going to be me today, and we are going to talk about an interesting topic. Amber set it up. But it's something that comes up all the time in the membership that Kim and I run. So I think it's a perfectly wonderful topic to address, and it really is. Should we confront our loved ones, whether it's our child or our spouse or partner, should we call them out when they do something while high, while drunk, or around the issue in general, should we call them out on that? It's a complicated question, and I think when we look at it sort of from a, what are the pros? What are the cons? When to do it, when not to do it. But I think first we have to decide why are we calling them out if we decide to do it? Most of the time we're calling them out because we're mad. It hurt our feelings, we're frustrated, we know they're lying, we know they're using, and we're just livid. And that is not the time to call them out if you're going to call them. So the pros to that are we feel better. It's really just in very short term, do we feel better, it doesn't change the situation, or very, very, very, very, very infinitesimally possible change the situation. So I think you have to look at what is my point in pointing it out. And if it's to. To vent, to feel less frustrated, that's okay. It's not going to yield you anything. But it's still okay. If your point is to have them acquiesce, admit, and then change because of it, it's not going to work like that. It just. That's not how the addiction thrives. So when we point it out, we usually get. What you guys are very familiar with is we get lies, we get denial, we get a fight, we get gaslighting, we get defensive, defensiveness in general because the disease is protecting itself. And so we have to recognize that that's what we're going to get back. And if we feel like venting, knowing that, press on. I prefer not to do that. And learn very quickly that that wasn't the right way to handle it. Although I did handle like that many, many, many times. So once I confronted my son about a big fat lie, and instead of just saying something super neutral like, I don't believe your story, but nonetheless, you go ahead and do what you're going to do, I confronted him, and he ended up actually punching his hand through a French door and we ended up in the er so it doesn't really go our way. I think we have to decide when we're pointing something out again, why are we doing that. And the reason we're doing that is like I've said to vent or, or get them to admit, but I think really what we want to do instead is we want to recognize, have a conversation with ourselves, a really important conversation, which is what is the boundary around the behavior that I'm pointing out? What am I ultimately going to do when this behavior persists? Am I going to ask them to leave the home? Am I going to file for divorce? Am I going to kick them out? Am I going to leave myself? What am I going to do? Because confrontation alone never really get you what you want it to do it. It just sort of is a way for you to maybe get sick and tired of being sick and tired yourself so that eventually you can have a boundary. But I think this goes back to our relationship with ourselves and boundaries. Some people are really good at having boundaries and really good at holding them. Most of us struggle, most of our clients really struggle with what is a boundary, period, and then how and when to hold a boundary. You cannot have a boundary unless you are going to hold it. So in my opinion, this takes a lot of self reflection and pretty serious thought with ourselves because the worst thing you do is announce a boundary and then not follow through with it. So if you're going to confront, if you're going to point out, I think it's important to know that up front, like when this doesn't change, what am I going to do about it? I think that you also have to look at if you're going to point out how to do so. And instead of accusing, yelling, pointing out their behavior that you don't like, I think you can do it a couple ways you can do it in the hey, last night we had some conversations that really hurt my feelings. And I'm really hopeful that we don't have to have those kind of conversations again. That's not really going to get a whole lot of defensiveness. It's probably going to get a shutdown because they either don't remember it or they know darn well they were drunk or high and they were guilty. But you're also just making a process comment instead of engaging them in a conversation. And process comments are ones where you talk about how you feel or what you have noticed and it's not, it doesn't really have the word you in it, it's sort of a. We like the example I just gave. Another process comment could be, you know, it seems like you are missing a lot of school. I'm sure there are some good reasons for that that I'm unaware of, but I'm kind of hoping that you can fix that so the school will start stop calling me something like that. You're not saying, why the hell aren't you going to school? You're not saying, the school is calling me and I'm livid. You're just making the comment about how you feel about the situation as you have been dragged into it or influenced by it. So process comments are a really good way to confront or call out without really confronting, sort of a soft call out. You're probably not going to get much feedback on that. Mother. Okay. Or I don't know what you're talking about, or okay, whatever, that's okay. Because you don't really want to engage in the conversation. You just want to lob that out there so that it can sit with them the other way you can do it, which is, you know, my favorite thing is to use the empowerment triangle. And the empowerment triangle, remember, is three points. It's to empathize and then to validate or align with and then to empower. So you could say in the, in the example I gave earlier with the process comment is, I noticed that last night we had an argument and I'm sure that made you feel really, really uncomfortable or really unhappy. I can get that. I feel the same way. I'm hoping that you can have a different way to talk to me, that that doesn't lead us to feel like that both of us feel like that. Or I'm hoping that we can learn how to engage in different conversations that don't lead us feeling like that as well. In the other example, you could say, hey, the school called me and they keep saying that you're not going to class. I'm sure there's something like a really good explanation or a reason that I'm getting these calls. So if you could just take care of that or talk to the office or go to school or whatever is going on. I'm going to let you figure out how you want to resolve that situation. You're pointing it out you're confronting, but you're doing it in a way it could. And I use capital C with that could, could lead them to say, yeah, my life is becoming unmanageable now. Remember, I just used C with a capital C, as in that's not likely with addiction. Like, their definition of unmanageable is so low compared to our level of management unmanageability. But nonetheless, those comments are not going to hurt and they are going to leave them. Rather than a confrontation, rather than a calling out, when we call out a confront, we just, they. They blame us, right? They flip it and they're like, well, I wasn't going to use, but my mom's just nagging me. Or I wasn't going to use, but oh my God, she brought up last night. That's false. They were going to use regardless of both scenarios. But then instead of looking in the mirror and seeing themselves in these instances, they look in the mirror and they see us. And the, the sort of end goal of addiction is for them to look in the mirror and see themselves and their life as it relates directly to themselves. That's what allows them to. To define unmanageability. When we sort of get by confronting, by yelling, screaming, nagging, doing all the things that we all do, we are literally feeding the disease. It's like we're putting a little bit of a nose bag on the horse of addiction because those are the fuels. Is the way they flip that and turn it around and say, well, I wasn't going to, but I am now because this happened. And so remember that, like, if that's not enabling, that's just feeding. Okay, there's a difference. But if you can stop feeding the disease, it will stop. Could stop sooner. It's not going to make it stop, but it will change. Sort of the reflection in the, in the mirror that they look at, which is, this is on me. I made that choice. I did do that. My choices and behaviors are impacting my life negatively. And that's. That's the only time when we get into that unmanageability definition from them is when we get a prayer that they'll stop using. See what else we want to talk about that. So talked about boundaries. We talked point about getting it. So, yeah, I think that's sort of the point of today is like, what is our goal? If we have a goal and we can identify it, do we have a boundary that's going to be around it? Can we hold that boundary or can we not? And then how do we want to do this? And remember, every time they give us a reason to confront them or to point something out, you doesn't mean we need to respond to that one. You can, you can hold it, you can think, you can let that marinate. You can decide, is this the hill I want to die on today. Do I really feel like getting into this battle? You know, with addiction, if you miss an opportunity, you going to get another one in about 15 minutes. So this is also a good point for you to like, where. What is my emotional reserve on this? And this is exhausting, fatiguing, sad and lonely disease. So it's okay for you to say, I'm just going to let this slide. I just don't have the bandwidth for it today, and I might not ever have the bandwidth for it, but eventually I'm going to get sick and tired of being sick and tired and I'm going to exit. I'm going to get out of the situation whether I confront or not. All right, let's see if we have any questions because this is a tough topic and I'm sure we will. Okay, thank you, Bri. When the blackout happens one or two times a year on certain holidays, is it best to plan ahead and opt not to be home, or does this convey lack of trust in their ability to change? You know, that's a really interesting double sided question. I wouldn't worry about b. Like, if I wouldn't worry about what, what you're conveying, this would be an example for you to have a boundary of what you can and cannot tolerate, what you will or will not continue to say yes to. If the blackout is causing you great distress or you harm or emotional term, well, then simply don't be at home. Absolutely. If the blackout is, they do things and you don't know how to confront them, or you don't know whether to confront them, that's a different topic. But I'm hoping that what I said in the last 10 minutes of this will help you with that. It is always, always okay to get ourselves out of the situation. It is always okay to decide what we can and cannot handle and what that conveys. I wouldn't spend a nickel's worth of time on that because they're going to construe whatever we do, positively or negatively, the way that want to construe it in their heads to validate their own choices and their own actions. So you, you make a boundary for you, not for them. All right, this one's for Bailey. What if they tell us that they can't handle our boundaries? That will make them so upset. Oh, okay, here we go. So a boundary is not for them to like or not like. A boundary is not for them to approve or disapprove of. A boundary is for us. Yeah, they're not going to like boundaries and. But you got to remember, you don't have to announce them. You can just have one. You can hold it, you can execute it. So depending upon the situation, if you think they're going to get upset and scream and yell at you, which they most likely are, if you announce it, then don't. You will know when you are ready to hold the boundary. Okay, you don't have to define this. I had zero idea the morning I woke up and asked my 17 year old to leave the house. Had no idea that was getting ready to happen. I didn't think it through, I didn't plan it. Sadly, I didn't really discuss it with my husband, but it just, it happened. This event occurred. I saw red, black shooting stars and I just said, hey dude, here are the, here are the ways to continue to live here. And he said, well, I'm not, not going to do any of those. I said, well, I guess you decided not to live here. That was a boundary I didn't even know I was thinking about having. I just snapped and said, I am no longer willing to live in this chaos. I am no longer willing to live in this turmoil. I am no longer willing to live with this period. And so I just put down the boundary and that was that. So be aware of that, you guys. You don't have to sit around and make lists of your boundaries. Just, you'll know a boundary is there when you just have this like, I'm done. I. This is ridiculous. Whether it's engaging in arguments or living with the person or fixing their problems or bailing them out, these are all boundaries that they're just going to occur. All right? But I think the secret is to have that relationship with yourself as the process is going, as if this continues. If I feel blank, do I have the ability to have a boundary there? I've had clients in the past, a couple right now, who have lost one child due to overdose. Perhaps they've lost a spouse. And now we're in with the second, the second addict. And they don't have the ability to have a boundary around the stealing, the using the living and creating chaos in their lives. They don't have the capability to have a boundary because of their fear and their complete and rational linkage to the past. So if you can't have a boundary, no harm, no foul, if you're overly boundaried like I am, they'll come easily to you. But that doesn't make that better and it doesn't make not having boundaries worse. This is an intense relationship with yourself. All right, So I think that's. That's sort of when I'm working with clients, like, what is your relationship with yourself and what is your relationship with your ability to have a boundary and then to hold. Hold it? Because they. They're. They're like that. They're braided. You cannot have a boundary if you're not willing to hold it. All right, My alcoholic cousin asked me what he did while intoxicated with alcohol. Should I be the one telling him what he did or said, if he's asking you, then, yes, I would tell him, but I would tell him in an aligning, either using the empowerment triangle or. Or the I feel statement that I just talked about. And so that it doesn't come out like a litany of nagging or a litany of complaints, just say, well, unfortunately, you were. You were fairly unkind last night, and it hurt my feelings. I don't think you should. Well, you can if you asked you to, but I wouldn't, like, go into extreme detail on it. I would just more do a summary of how you felt based upon his behavior, because that's going to resonate with him long term for realizing that it's his reflection in the mirror that's going to resonate better with him. He won't get as defensive. If you say, well, you knocked over the TV and you yelled at the children and you ate the whole pizza by yourself, they're going to get defensive because that doesn't sound good. And it's. They're going to say something like, well, I didn't mean to do that, or, well, I only did that because I knew you didn't like pepperoni. They're going to make up some crap, but they're going to get defensive. And when we. When we get defensive, all of us, it's like a brick in the wall toward truth. And so the more we cause them to be defensive, the more bricks in the wall are going to keep them from realizing that their life is unmanageable because of their substance use. So remember that for all conversations. If Amber came to me and said, you don't make enough videos, oh, I'd get super defensive. I'd be like, yeah, well, I work, you know, I see 35 clients a week, and I have a tree in my roof, and I'm exhausted. I'm gonna get defensive versus, you know, your videos really speak to people, and it would be lovely if you could make some more. I'm gonna start making more videos. So remember, you get More. More flies with honey. Honey, that's Amber's husband, I swear to Buddha. And does not have a full time job. All right, this is from Casey. It only makes me feel better for a minute and then it causes a fight, stress and hurt. So I've stopped calling it out and just walk away. It's too much. You're right, Casey. I mean, that's exactly what happens is, is we're coming at it with logic, right? And they're coming at it from a completely illogical standpoint because they're the ones whose addiction is running the show, which is living in that survival part of the brain, which is not smart, is not logical, it is not kind, and it's just, you're going to get the beat down and it doesn't feel good and it causes our emotional mood to fall. It causes, you know, our. Can ruin our day, can ruin our week. So that's kind of what I meant earlier with do I have the bandwidth for this or not? Am I going to do anything about it? Even if I point it out, whether he admits it or doesn't admit it, this goes back to, this is a complicated relationship with yourself. And, and it's okay to go here, and it's okay to be here on this, but if you walk away, decide, I'm just not going to confront it because it doesn't do any good. And I, I don't want to confront it because it does me ungood. That's fine. It's okay to be. To not be willing to be ungood, which I know is not a word. This is from Judy. Can the boundary be lifted? Oh, if so, how, when to go about that? Absolutely. But, but. So, yes, My answer in the short is totally, because it's always our, our right as a human to change our minds. You could, like, I could have a boundary. I kind of do have a boundary. I don't go out on Friday nights. I'm tired. I'm tired of talking. I don't have the bandwidth for it. So generally speaking, I don't go out on Friday night. But can I change my mind and say, you know what? That actually sounds really fun and I'm have a light Friday. I'll absolutely go out on Friday night. Yes. Does that mean the boundary was wrong before? No. Does that mean I can't go back to that boundary? No, it just means I'm going to lift it, which I really like that word. I'm going to lift it for today. And if so, I would just say that. I would just say I've decided to change my mind. I've decided that I was wrong. I've decided that was harsh. You know, you can sort of. But keep it back on. I've decided. Now, if we're talking about. Let's just throw out this example. If you use drugs, you can't live here. That's a big boundary. And they use drugs several times and you realize you don't have the ability to hold that. Now in the first place, I wish you hadn't put it down, but people do it. So you can say, you know what, I thought I was going to be able to ask you to leave, but I'm not. So I don't know what I'm going to do if you continue to use drugs, but I'm not going to ask you to leave or I'm not going to kick you out of the house. So again, you've left it. You've changed your mind. But in this instance, you haven't said so. It's. Therefore, it's okay. You're not acquiescing, you're just saying, I don't know what I'm going to do. But you're implying that you're going to do something. And my guess is sooner or later you will do something. So you just bought yourself endless however much time you need on that and any definition you want to do on that. So you can absolutely lift a boundary. I would rather that you. If it's a boundary, then it would be something really vague, like my example of not going out on Friday. If it's, I'm going to leave you if you continue to drink. The children and I are no longer willing to live in this home if you continue to drink. I rather you don't have that boundary if you're going to lift it because you lose your power. And the disease loves it when we lose our power because it gives it power. So I would be careful on that. About when and when and how to have a boundary and when and how to announce a boundary. It's better to not announce one and think, do I have one? Do I have one? Do I have one? And then have that moment like I did. We're just like, yes, snap, I do have a boundary. And here it is. All right, this is from Carrie. Can you give us some more examples of validation statements for the intoxicated loved one when they are in the middle of the intoxication event and we may not have the ability to leave them or derail them? I don't know that I do. A Whole lot of validating. I guess I can look at it two ways. I wouldn't validate that what they're doing is okay, but if they're ranting in a drunken stupor about how you are impacting them, like, you never listen, you don't love me. If they're going that way, you can use the empowerment triangle, which is something like, well, I can understand how that would feel. It would make me feel very sad if I felt that way about you. And sometimes, you know, I do. And so I understand that. That's. That's really, really sad. But I think that we can work toward changing our relationship. We just have to talk about it tomorrow. You're not going to. You guys know this. When they're high or drunk, you're not going to have a productive conversation. A, they probably won't remember it, or B, they'll twist it to validate continued use. So if you're using it in this case to get yourself out of the situation or to not engage in a fight or to protect yourself, then I would do something like that, which is just sort of go over to their side and agree with them. That doesn't mean you actually agree with them. You're just extricating yourself from what sounds like it could be you can't leave or derail them. So if that's protection, then, sure, validate away. All right, Bailey, what if they say they want to get help but still don't go to rehab? Therapist, doctor, etc. They just say they want to get better. I feel like I'm at a standstill and progress until she actually goes. Oh, they're gonna say they'll go to rehab and do all those things for as long as you'll let them do that. Because that's just an example of. Of words. Right? So that words, when they use those words, it's to placate us. It's to buy time. It's to get away with it some more. Yeah, I'm gonna go after the holidays. So meanwhile, I'm just going to drink up a storm between now and New Year's. So I think I don't ever listen to words. And when I hear words from clients or I hear words from my clients, loved ones like that, that says nothing. So when they. When they do that, you can say, great, let me know when that happens, and just walk out of the conversation. Don't. Don't have a big, hairy conversation about when. What they mean by that. But again, they're not going to stop until they determine Their life is unmanageable, which often does put us in the position of we have to have a boundary. That would cause the unmanageability to be. To be felt, to be acknowledged. They can come from outside, right? Like get a dui or you could get kicked out of school or your girlfriend could break up with you or you get fired. But if we'll tolerate it, it's still going to happen in the home. So I think you have to bear in mind just this, the old adage that actions speak louder than words. And I wouldn't get sucked into the word game at all. Annabelle, do you lift a boundary after an amendment or wait and watch the behavior? I'm confused by that. Can you elaborate on that? Annabelle? What do you mean after an amendment? If you mean I'm just going to answer the question based upon what I think. But if you type it in, Brielle, throw it up there. But if you mean that they say I'm really sorry. I. I know you said if I used again, I couldn't live here. If there's apology. Okay, thank you, Annabelle. You can lift it, but you have to lift it through a screen door as in, in your own mind. Know that maybe I'm lifting this, but I'm going to most likely have to go back to it. Apologies just buy time for addiction, right? Especially if we're in the middle. I mean, obviously an amendment at the end, if they're on step nine, that's a different thing. But you may not have a boundary by that point. But if it's in the middle of the use, then I would use that. Recognize that this is just. Maybe I'm lifting it, but I'm going to have to put it back down. If it's a real amendment, like they're in recovery. They're really working those 12 steps and they have an amendment making amends with you and you've seen really good, consistent, sober behavior up until that point, then that would probably indicate at least a level of sustainable change. So you could either lift at that point or you could say, you know, I was so thank you for the apology. I makes me feel so much better. I really want to continue working on the relationship and we can have a conversation not that far down the road about making some changes in. In our relationship or our living situation or our finances or whatever the boundary was on. But you remember, you guys, we're looking for sustainable change, not words. We're looking for sustainable change, not apologies. So watch that. That's a really important step for you. And you don't have to define that. Sober for three months. Sober. It doesn't. This, right. Isn't really your goal. It's the behavior changes. Right? It's. It's truthfulness. It's reliability. It's being on time. It's. It's caring. It's using the limbic brain. It's taking financial responsibility. It's living life like a sober person is. Really? You're looking for that? More than. I've got two weeks of sobriety. Can we, you know, have a chat about me coming home? But meanwhile, I'm not. I'm not telling you the truth. I've missed a date. I haven't followed up on the children. I haven't taken care of anything I'm supposed to. I've just been sober. There's a big difference in sustainable behavioral change and sobriety and. And recovery. So recovery is, you know, going back to those values of humility, willingness, integrity, self awareness, reliability, all those things that really kind of amplify the behaviors that we're looking for sustainably. All right, I think we have time for at least one more. This is from Bethany. I am sober and starting dating someone who drinks. He says that he wants to eventually slow down, but already have been caught in lies about drinking. Any hope here? Dating sober is hard. Two and a half years for you, I would imagine it's very hard because alcohol is sadly so prevalent, and our lives. I. You know, Bethany, I'm gonna just. I'm gonna wave the flag here. I hate it. I hate to do it. But he's. You're. He's lying. Like if he were saying, I'm gonna cut down in the next three years and you're kind of drinking, maybe that's not a lie. But he's lying. So I. To me, that's a red flag. And I'm a. Again, very boundary person. But when I see a red flag, I don't need to see a second red flag. So I. I would. I would cut on that one. Sorry. All right, we have time for one more. All right, Madison, how do you uphold a boundary when your loved one is drunk? We talk about them when he is sober, but the conversation becomes monumentally more difficult when he's intoxicated. Right. So I don't know why you're talking about a boundary. A boundary. It does not merit discussion. A boundary does not. Does not constitute having to have agreement or buy in, and a grant. And a boundary is simply something you are no longer willing to do. So something you are no longer willing to say yes to or something you are no longer willing to tolerate. So I wouldn't be talking about your boundaries. If you're going to put it in place, put it in place. And that's not up for debate. It's not up for approval. It's not up for an argument. It's this is it. If I say I'm not going out on Friday night, it's not up for debate. No one's going to sway me on that. So you don't engage in these conversations when they're drunk or they're sober. You just know what is my boundary and when am I going to put it in place? All right. Do we have time for one more really quick one? Nope. Brown. Okay. All right, guys, thanks a bunch. Amber will be here next week and I enjoyed this and hope it was helpful. Thanks a lot. Bye, guys.