Flipping the Script: A Patient’s Journey to Joy with SC Perot

The mood in this conversation is only going up from here. Okay, we've covered the sad. We're on our way up. This is. We are rediscovering Joy, which is part of the subtitle of the book, Joy.

Is entering the Building. I love it.

Joy is entering the chat right now. So.

Hi everybody, and welcome to the podcast. This is Generations Maryland. My name is Stephanie and I'm joined here by my colleague Dr. Sarah Davis, who is also my mother. And today we have a very special guest, Sarah Catherine Perrott, or SC Perot.

As she is known to her friends. She was born and raised in Dallas, Texas. She's a proud graduate of Vanderbilt University and Stanford Law School. After practicing law, she pivoted during the pandemic to follow a long time desire to teach. She is presently an adjunct faculty member at her alma mater, Vanderbilt University, and she is going to tell us today about her first book, Styles of joy. Welcome, S.C. thank you so much for having me.

And I'm so excited for the listeners to know that we actually go way back. How long have you been my doctor? Since I was.

You were 12 years old.

12 years old, exactly. And I've just been so grateful to be a part of your practice. It's been an incredible experience and so fun to get to know Stephanie as well. And I'm so happy to have the conversation. Thank you for having me.

Oh, it's so, it's so fun to have you here and it's so fun watch you grow up and now here you are as a professor and author.

So, so exciting. I'm just grateful to not be practicing law anymore, I can tell you that.

So let's back up a little bit. How did you kind of get to the point where you were starting to write this book? Just kind of way back, going to law school and then kind of pivoting. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Absolutely. So you know this phrase, God laughs when you make plans. I think I'm a great example of that. I certainly had some unexpected life events happen, including one we can all relate to, which was the pandemic. That really shook things up in my life. That's when I stopped practicing law. Working remote while practicing Big law was very difficult. I really was so grateful for that job. I was practicing at a Texas based firm that had offices internationally but was tied between the Dallas and Austin offices. And I always say I had the best possible situation for Big Law. I had, you know, great, great bosses, incredible coworkers who are still some of my dear friends to this day. But once the pandemic hit, I no longer was able to do pro bono work. I was really passionate about helping asylum seekers and challenging border conditions in detention facilities in South Texas. And once that all went away, and I also was not able to do recruiting, which I always found so much fun, to travel to different law schools around the country and talk to people about recovery, practicing law. And then I wasn't seeing my co workers every day. I mean, it. It really was such a pivot. Vividly remember being on the phone with one of my mentors, and I said, well, I don't. I don't know if I should leave because I really like my job. And she said, well, what do you like about your job? And when I listed all the things, she said, well, I hate to break it to you, but actually you don't like your job because you weren't hired to do any of those things. And I was like, oh, okay, so I like the bells and whistles, but I don't actually like billing hours. So that was a fascinating pivot for me. I write in the book that you can't move forward unless you know where you want to go. And I knew I had to stop practicing law. It was so on my heart to teach. I never really thought that teaching at my alma mater would be an option because I was living in Austin at the time and obviously Vanderbilt in Nashville. But I remember I was sitting at undergrad graduation, cap, gown, existential crisis. You know, you're sitting there as everyone's, like, crossing the stage. And I had this lightning bolt realization of I have to go to graduate school. I mean, it was like, what I mean, and I know that sounds wild that that only occurred to me as I was graduating, but as I was reflecting on my college experience, I had so much fun. It was very social. All of that was wonderful. But I had such an enriching academic experience that I really just loved school. And I just felt like I wanted to continue to be in that environment in some capacity. And I used to feel shame that my fork in the road of what graduate program involved staring at the GMAT versus the lsat. And I used to think, well, that's not a real reason. You know, that shouldn't be your guiding principle. But actually, I tell my students, if you have a natural aptitude and inclination towards one or the other, that might actually be a good indicator of future success in that particular program. And for me, I really didn't want to relearn math. That's just the truth. And I had always enjoyed English and politics and government and writing, and that was just much more up my alley. So I went to law school, not necessarily thinking I would practice law, but ended up doing that for a few years. But when I was sitting at law school, graduation, cap, gown, existential crisis, all the people walking across the stage, whatever, whatever, what's going on with my life? I had a similar kind of like twin lightning bolt realization of I have to teach. And I'm thinking, oh, I mean, I've accepted this job at a law firm. So that would have been several years later when I stopped practicing law. But that yearning really had remained on my heart. And, you know, I always tell my students I work with seniors in college, which is an age group I love working with, because I just vividly remember that feeling of, oh, like there's no more script. You know, like, freshman goes to sophomore to junior and senior and then what? And I encourage them to think about their daydreams, you know, what do you daydream about? And for me, when I couldn't sleep, I would picture myself teaching at Vanderbilt. And that just felt so impossible, you know, especially not living in Nashville. Well, fast forward. I ended up getting out of the wrong marriage in 2022. And all of a sudden I was like, oh, wait, maybe that. And I got recruited around the same time, which was just, just unbelievably fortunate series of events. And so that's what led me to Nashville and that's what led me to teach. And in terms of writing, as I was processing everything I was going through, so I was going through a career pivot, which was very, you know, I practiced law for however many years. I mean, not that many, three or something like that. But that whole process, it was three years of law school, one whole year of applications in the ELSA. So it was a seven year undertaking in my 20s. So leaving that after committing so many years to it really felt like such a big identity shift. So I was processing that and processing the pandemic and getting out of this wrong marriage, so going through this really heartbreaking divorce, and I was processing everything I was going through by going on really long walks. That was like my saving grace. And I remember saying to my mom, I was like, these walks are really helping. You know, it's endorphins and it's vitamin D time in nature. I would walk around the town, Lake Loop in Austin, Texas, and happy music in my headphones. And I'm like, this is kind of like a surefire recipe. Like, I'm feeling This kind of good energy come back to me and because I very much was in the depths of grief. And I write in the book that anyone that thinks divorce is only about two people is sorely mistaken. I mean, I lost a whole family. I lost a whole group of friends. I lost my house and my dog and my partner. I mean, it was the really. It's such a nuclear amount of loss and significant change and, and disruption. So as I'm grieving, I type good energy in on Spotify because I was looking for some good energy. Now the mood in this conversation is only going up from here. Okay, we've covered the sad. We're on our way up. This is. We are rediscovering Joy, which is part of the subtitle of the book.

Joy is entering the building. I love it.

Joy is entering the chat right now. So I typed good energy in and there was a playlist called Good Energy. And I was like, oh great, it's exactly what I'm looking for. And I never listened to Harry Styles and his third album, Harry's House came out two days after I told my then husband that I wanted a divorce. So that new, brand new whole album was scattered throughout this Good Energy playlist. And all of a sudden I'm like, these songs are fun. I'm like, this is some good energy. So then I'm just listening to that album and I would hit play and hit the walking trail and I was just listening to this happy music and like I said, was so aware that that was really boosting my mood and keeping my spirits afloat. So fast forward. Long story short, I went to 17 Harry Styles concerts in five countries and traveled with people I met along the way. And I had a Harry Styles themed Eat Pray Love, Divorce Recovery Adventure. And as a former very straight laced corporate attorney, I certainly didn't have this on my life bingo card. And I still kind of can't believe the words that come out of my mouth when I describe this series of events. But I was really inspired. There was something really deep stirring inside of me as I was going to these shows because I was watching people dance safely in a crowd after the pandemic. That to me felt like nothing short of a miracle. I mean, if you think of all the combinations of factors that allow 90,000 people to gather safely in one place. I mean, it's so unbelievable to think critically about just the amount of joy that a Taylor Swift eras tour, a Harry Styles Love on tour is bringing to so many people around the world after such a dark Few years. And of course, I had my own individual work that I was going through or challenges I was going through. But I think we've all been through so much. And I know people have Covid fatigue and don't want to talk about it, but I critically started thinking about joy for the first time. You know, not just my joy, but your joy, our joy. And I was just so taken by this collective effervescence and this communal and collective joy in these five countries. And I'm watching how it was transcending language barriers and in a form that I think people so often write off as trivial because it's entertainment, it's pop music, it's whatever. And I'm listening to people's stories of what this means to them and how happy music has helped them through different challenges. And I realize, you know, we really need to be thoughtful about the amount of joy kind of in our society. So I wrote a fourfold framework to maximize joy in all of our lives. And that is the book I kind of joke is two books in one. There's this loose narrative arc of sad girl types, good energy in On Spotify is a year later dancing in the rain at Wembley with 90,000 people and someone she met in a bathroom line. You know what I'm saying? And ended up being my travel buddy. But fundamentally, it's this fourfold curriculum that asks, you know, readers thoughtful questions about their relationship with their joy and also others. So that. That's how we're here now.

Yeah. Well, that is amazing, Truly. Just the whole story and everything. Something that, just as you were speaking, that stuck out to me is kind of this theme. And you mentioned how working with college seniors, it's where the script ends. You're following the script. You go to high school, then you go to college, and then the script ends, and you gotta decide what to do. And a theme that I noticed, like, throughout as you were speaking, is you kind of had this idea of what your life was gonna look like. And following the script, I'm gonna go to college, and I'm gonna go to law school, and then I'm gonna be a lawyer. And this is what it's gonna look like. When you kind of had a pull in other directions, like teaching, and then you made the jump from being a lawyer to then traveling around the world, how did you. Were you able to kind of switch that mindset from being like, oh, I don't have to continue down this script that I made for myself in life? How were you able to kind of switch your Life into something that maybe wasn't necessarily the plan.

You know, a lot of it happened to me. You know, it was a lot that just I. In terms of specifically practicing law and stopping that. People ask me that question all the time. When did you know you needed to leave? When did you know you needed to pivot? I vividly remember I took a few days off for the first time in a couple years. I didn't have a lot of days off. And I was kind of getting close to burnout because, again, there was a lot going on in my personal life. There's a lot going on in the world with the pandemic. And I thought, okay, I'm gonna hit reset. I'm gonna go to the beach for four days with my family, and I'm gonna come back and I'm gonna wake up, I'm gonna work out. I'm gonna cook a healthy breakfast, and I'm gonna sit down and I'm gonna crush it. I'm gonna be back and be refreshed. So I did that. I woke up and I worked out, and I cooked a healthy breakfast, and I sat down. I couldn't will myself to do it. And I thought, okay, wait. And I had a deadline, so. And I'm a deadline girl. Like, I. I get easily distracted. You know, I'm easily pushed and pulled in other ways. But if you give me a deadline, I'm gonna hit it. And I was sitting there and I was like, it's okay. It's okay. It's post vacation blues. That's fine. That's all it is. That's all. So tomorrow, Tuesday, I'm gonna wake up, I'm gonna exercise, I'm gonna cook a healthy breakfast, I'm gonna sit down, and I'm gonna nail it. I couldn't, like, will my hands to tie. I had never experienced anything like that in my life. And I just thought, I don't know what to do. And that's when I called the mentor who told me, I hate to break it to you, but you don't like your job. And so I took this leap of faith. And I also. I think one thing that was so paralyzing about not knowing what was next is I knew I needed to get out of the marriage, and I couldn't. I couldn't plant seeds professionally if I didn't handle that and take care of that and get kind of back on track in other ways in my life. And it was a good amount of time. I mean, I'm trying to think of the math in My head of when I start and. And I worked on this other side project that's not worth getting. I love a side hustle. I'm always doing something like I love. I can't sit still. I love projects. You know, I started a little jewelry business in the Pandemic because I was bored. And then I was helping people with event planning and, you know, I'm just always cooking up something. So I was, I was working on what I thought would be this next venture that I ended up walking away from for good reason. But I guess my short answer is I just didn't feel like I could do it and like it was just hitting a brick wall. So in terms of when the script runs out and in terms of when things don't go according to plan, you know, I really felt like I looked around and I just didn't recognize my life anymore. I mean, talk about mass identity stripping. No longer a lawyer, you know. Well, I guess technically, if you're a member of the bar, you're technically, you know, whatever, but no longer a practicing lawyer. I was no longer a daughter in law. I was no longer a sister in law. I was no longer an aunt, you know, I was no longer a wife. I was, you know, and it was just kind of this, okay, like lots of, lots of change. And there was something to be said for going to these concerts that, you know, I'm walking into this crowd anonymously. No one cares where you went to school or didn't go to school. No one cares who you know or don't know or what experiences you've had or not. And it was just about this, this kind of really fascinating breakdown kind of even further, if that makes sense, where it was almost like, okay, who am I in every single room I walk into and what do I bring into every room, you know, as I'm talking to these strangers in all these countries, you know, and it was just about this fundamental kindness. And it made me realize, I'm like, oh, it's just, it's not difficult to connect with people. And, you know, I've. I love people. Like, I love love people. Like, I joke in the book that I'm like Barbara Walters. Like, I want to talk to anyone. I think everyone has an interesting story to tell. But for me, it was actually a lot of really significant interpersonal work that I was doing at the same time because I was already in this season of so much identity shifting and changing. And it was kind of like, what if I went further and what if I was no one's neighbor, no one's ex wife, no one's colleague or former co worker, former classmate. And that, to me, was one of the most empowering and enriching experiences in a season of so much change. And I actually advise people going through, you know, whether it's divorce or whatever it may be, is have you thought about, like, going to yourself by yourself, to go to a. A book club or to a kickball, like, whatever it is, and it's just fresh and new and kind of see how that lands and how that feels. And for me, because I was really starting over in so many areas of my life, I. I tell people I'm like, you know, I was hyper vigilant about every brick that got added back into this new life. And that's why I would argue my life has never been better. Is every single thing was questioned, interrogated of, like, okay, if we're starting over, what are we? What do we want to build back? And for me, every relationship was examined. My faith was examined. What I wanted a future partner was exam. And I was like, not. I was turning over every stone. And it's actually so beautiful to be on the other side of, you know, looking back on that and realizing that I really was taking the opportunity and not living in autopilot. And that's just a really infectious way to live, is being deeply present in what's working and what's not and what you want and what you don't. Does that answer your question? No.

Yeah. I mean, yes, absolutely.

It's just such a story of metamorphosis. It's really. It's. It's really exciting.

And I. I love the idea of walking in somewhere where nobody in the room knows you and doesn't have preconceived notions of you. And, you know, it's. You're. You just get to figure out completely who you are. I love that concept.

It's interesting because people say, you know, oh, when you were at these concerts, did anyone, you know, know who you are? And I. I kind of don't know what they mean by that, but I. The answer is always yes. I mean, they were meeting me in my most authentic form. And that was. I mean, I keep in touch with more people than I could possibly count from all these adventures. And that's a. I did a podcast about friendship the other day. I was a guest, and the. The host had read the book, and she said, by the way, this is, I think, before the show started or was recorded. She said, by the way, I know this is a book about joy, but this is absolutely a book about friendship. And I said, oh, wow, you really read it. That makes me feel like you really, really tracked. And she held up her copy and it was sticky noted and highlighted and all this, and. And just kind of. This. Just these beautiful messages about friendship. And, you know, I always say that all friends start as strangers. And for me, in this era, that was such a wonderful part of it was meeting people of all walks of life and all these different places and, you know, with this shared interest that we like the same music. And that, to me, illuminated the difference between superficial and uncomplicated. You know, those relationships aren't superficial. Like you're bonding over something you really do love deeply, but they're just uncomplicated. And that's such a beaut. That was a really beautiful thing to witness. You know, I was watching people. I was at one concert in the uk and the girls in front of me said, we've been friends on Twitter for 10 years and we've never met in person. And we promised each other that we would go to a One Direction concert, which was the band that Harry used to be in. I'm sure Stephanie knows that. I don't know. Yes, she saw him and, you know, she was like. Because they're not abandoned anymore, we decided the next best thing would be to see Harry. So we both flew in to meet for the first time. I mean, you can't say. I mean, that's so incredible. And I've met girls who have opened up to me about how they met all their friends through being a fan of this or that. And I think this is. I think we are really in such a loneliness epidemic in this world, and it's so exacerbated by social media and all these things. And to watch real in person connection was so contagious and such a. I'm not. I'm not surprised that after a period of heartbreak, that was my chosen, you know, safe, safe landing. It was just this happy little. Happy little bubble that was. And I alluded to this earlier, but definitely stirring up something inside of me. And maybe I couldn't have named it, but clearly I had a lot to say about it. If I wrote this whole book, how impactful that was on me. And so it's surreal to be sitting here and talking about it and it's exciting.

Yeah.

Tell me, tell me this. Just, like, how did it unfold that, you know, I'm just like. I'm just trying to, like, wrap my head around, you know, okay, you're listening to the music, you do this, and then how does it all of a sudden be that? You go to all of these concerts all over the world, like, how did that. How did that happen?

So it's very important that I emphasize that I did not set out to do this right. This is really snowballed in a way I never in a million years would have seen coming. So Harry Styles was doing residencies in different cities. So he performed six shows in Austin, then he went to Chicago, and then he went to LA or whatever it was, instead of bebopping around different cities when he was in the United States. So I was living in Austin at the time, and a friend of mine who was an acquaintance turned to me and she was like, you know, I. I absolutely love Harry Styles. Would you want to pay $300? She was like, I don't think many of my friends would want to do that, to be directly in front of the stage. And I'm thinking, I don't really know if I'm like a crowds gal. No, I don't know. And my best girlfriends in Austin had already purchased nosebleed tickets. And so I just thought, you know what? I think I actually. I think I really like Harry Styles. I mean, I was going through so much. It wasn't even clicking in my head how often I was turning to that same happy music to boost my mood. And so I was kind of like, okay, I'm going to step out of my comfort zone. I'm going to say yes to an acquaintance. I'm going to agree to be in the pit, the general admission pit. And so that's how I went to two shows. And I just thought that was that. I mean, and it was. It was great. The first show wasn't that great because I didn't really know what was going on. There were like so many inside jokes where I'm like, what is this? This is like a whole ecosystem. I don't. Why are they barking at Harry? What is that line dance they're all doing? How do they all know this choreography? Like, it was just this whole thing. Very curious about that after the first show. So I did some online recon to feel a little more prepared for show, too. And I just thought that was that. I didn't think much of it. And I was at a friend's wedding in Orlando at the cocktail hour. One of her friends from business school, who I didn't really know, said, I'm dying to see Harry Styles before his show's end. Would you want to go out to la. And I was like, yeah, absolutely, that would be great. So that was show three. Then this is where things kick into gear a little bit. I'm going to try to say this quickly because this is a lot of background info. Someone called me and she said, I saw. This is another acquaintance. I'd known her for years, but we kind of reconnected in Austin only kind of recently at this time. And she said, I really want to see Harry Styles out in la. I saw you just went, would you want to go again? And I'm like, 100%. This is like the most fun. I'm, I'm going through so much right now that, like, if this is something to look forward to on my calendar, like, yeah, I'm. I'm all in. So then Harry gets the flu. This is where the story gets interesting. Our ticket rolled over to be his second to last domestic show at the very end of January. Why does that matter like that? It was two months and some change away. Harry Styles and I share a birthday, February 1st.

So I said, happy birthday.

So I said to my friend, I said, we are not flying all the way to Los Angeles to see the second to last show. We are obviously going to the last show of his whole tour, which is our shared birthday show. Of course you can't. This is my first birthday by myself in eight years without my partner. We are hunting for fun. We are going to make this great. So we were locked and loaded. And that would be shows four and five. Two weeks before those shows, he announced additional shows in Palm Springs on our birthday eve and on the actual birthday, I call up my little sister. I'm like, look alive, okay? You are coming. This is the ultimate, like, I am pulling the big sister card. I don't care what you were doing, you have to come. So anyway, that's how things escalated to seven shows. You see how it adds up? Then friend of mine set out to go to the uk. We were going for a summer trip. And she said, you know, Harry Styles is going to be in Scotland. I've never been. And I was like, great reason to go somewhere you've never been. I mean, I write in the book that concerts are the closest thing to an invitation you'll get. I mean, why else would I ever go to Edinburgh? So we went to two shows in Coventry, England, and two shows in Edinburgh. I was in line at the Tesco grocery store bathroom line in industrial Coventry, England, after the first show of what was supposed to be four shows in nine days. And we're in, like, our feather boas. And we're having so much fun, and, like, it's so light and joyful. And there's this character in front of us in line. She's got a hoodie on and sunglasses, and she's, like, covered in tats and has a nose ring and is, like, standing up against the wall, Breakfast Club style. She's got her AirPods in, like, the energy is, don't talk to me. I can read the room. I'm not. I'm. Listen. Not everyone wants to chat with Barbara Walters. Like, I get that. And so I'm chatting with my two friends who I had known pre Harry adventures, and she takes out an AirPod, this character in line in front of us. And she says, do I hear American accents? And I'm thinking, that's not always a good thing when you're traveling. And she takes off her hoodie, and I see she has this bleach blonde mullet. And all of a sudden, something clicks in my mind. I recognize the sunglasses and hairdo combo. And I said, wait a second. I know you. You're the marathon runner. I was at Harry's show in Palm Springs when he stopped the concert to read your poster that said, wish me luck. I'm running a marathon on Sunday. She's like, yeah, that's me. What's up? I'm Margo. I live in Los Angeles. And I said, girl, I love your Tiktoks. And that's how I met my friend Margo. And we went to nine more shows together. She had extra tickets. She was like, do you want to keep going? And I couldn't think of a reason why not. My job was starting in August. This was in June, and my family has a place over there, and I could stay with family. And I was kind of like, well, I mean. And she had all these extra tickets. So we ended up going to nine shows together in four countries. And she's a really dear friend of mine to this day. She's, like, such a wonderful person. First person to send me snail mail on my birthday. I mean, she's just the sweetest and is so impressive. She runs marathons based on where Harry is touring as a excuse to keep tacking on. She went by herself to Australia. I mean, she's so deep in this fan world. And so we were. We were great adventure buddies together. But that's how it snowballed is I met the right person at the right time.

That is incredible. This was 20 summer, 2023. Is that right? That's. I Was at the Amsterdam show. Yeah.

Amazing.

Yes. It was incredible. It was really incredible.

So jealous. We tried to figure out Amsterdam and we couldn't pull it off.

Yeah. Something I do want to touch on going back, you talked about just the loneliness epidemic. And I think about this a lot. And it's a huge issue everywhere in the world. I guess kind of pivoting more to like action items. Maybe some stuff that you talk about in the book. How do you feel like you can get out of a rut or a feeling lonely? Just post Covid, I feel like we're still in this world with that. I know we talked a little bit about this before. Do you want to kind of touch on mental illness versus mental health? You know, because we're not trying to be like if you're depressed, like this is how you get out, but just kind of mental health in general of how to like accumulate joy in your life.

So I love this distinction, you know, because I feel like talking about joy has put me in the mental health conversation, you know, But I, I make it very clear in the introduction of the book. I am not a licensed healthcare professional, mental healthcare expert, any of that. These, this is all anecdotal based on my lived experience of how I, you know, again, rediscovered joy. You know, there's kind of two questions in one in your question about kind of loneliness in general and then kind of how to tend to our own joy, which is easy for me to tee up because I can talk about the four parts of the, of the book. And you know, one of the most helpful check ins that I have ever come across, someone who's a coach here in Nashville gave me a little note card years ago before the pandemic. And it's a quadrant of every combination of alone, not alone, lonely, not lonely. And I think it's so fascinating to break it down in that manner because I find that people think so often if you're around other people, you won't be lonely. And that's just not the case. And that's why I think loneliness is actually so much more pervasive than people might instinctively realize. Because you can be lonely in the wrong relationship. I would actually argue that's the loneliest quadrant is when you are with someone and still feeling lonely. And you know, right now I'm sitting here alone in my house, but I, I don't feel lonely in the slightest. In every kind of combination in that quadrant is to me the best check in. And I put that, I teach it to my students and I put it on the board, I'm like, if you're ever feeling a certain kind of way, check in and see if loneliness might be a culprit. And it also can be illuminating of maybe you're not spending time with the right people. If you're, you know, sitting at a dinner, maybe it looks on paper like everything is great. But if you're feeling isolated from who you're sitting around and spending your time with, that, that can be kind of a really important light bulb, I think. I mean, I know it's cliche to point to social media as a really big enemy here, but I just think it has to be called out. One conversation I'm really interested in with my students is this whole idea of what's obvious. You know, what's obvious to you is not obvious to other people. And I have my students go around the room and say, what's top of mind for you right now? What do you think is just so obvious it's almost like not even worth saying? And I have never had two students say the same thing. One says, everyone in this room deserves love. That's really obvious to me. Someone says it's really important to drink water. Someone says it's really important to introduce fiber in your diet. Someone says, and it was just fascinating, like what was really top of mind. So all these students have different takeaways. And for me, I hesitate to talk about social media as a joy robber because to me that's so obvious. I'm like, isn't that so clear that that is harming so many people's joy and their kind of mental well being? Again, differentiating between mental illness and kind of general mental health and well being. But the loneliness, social media is the biggest lie. It is such a lie. There is no such thing as unfiltered. It's just in. I watch how people struggle and compare their lives to others. Some people I know whose lives look the most perfect on social media are the worst in reality. There's this. Sometimes a compensation for what's actually going on is, you know, and I suggest in the book that social media is not just the story that we're telling other people, it's the story that we're telling ourselves. We can get manipulated by our own highlight reel. I look at what I posted to wrap up January of 2025. It was like such a joke. I'm like, this looks like this was the best month of all time. Sure, I got to go to a Knicks game with my friends in New York and that was so much fun. Sure, I did this or that, but I have scores of friends in Los Angeles who are in acute trauma because the fires and I family there. I mean, it's just. It's totally misleading in terms of reality. And I. I think people are really catching on. Finally, you know, I downloaded Instagram for the first time in 2012. So I've been on and off that app for 13 years. I mean, ugh. But that brings me to the four parts of the book. You know, I mentioned that social media is a joy robber. That's a concept I introduce in part three. But to introduce the fourfold framework, as I was critically thinking about communal and collective joy for the first time, looking at all these stadiums and arenas full of people experiencing this incredible joy, my question became, how can I maximize. How can we maximize joy in all of our lives? So I suggest that we can do so when we live joyfully in all caps. Caps is the fourfold framework. Part one is when we cultivate joy in our own lives. Part two is when we adopt others joy as our own. Part three is when we protect our joy and other people's joy. And part four is spreading joy, which is of course the lightest. And it's just a skip through a field of daisies. Part of the book is just tons of stories of random acts of kindness that I've witnessed over my life and things like that. So. But I think it's fascinating to me as I began researching, and I want to clarify that I don't mean this research in a clinical setting. This is research, lowercase r. When I was really looking around and trying to wrap my head around some of these big questions I was asking. It shocked me, the number of people that said, I don't know what brings me joy. I don't even know what I like anymore. And it's actually a really exciting invitation to think about what brings you joy because it does shift and change. And I. I think that there's this really engaging dynamic with some of these exercises is it's the opposite of stagnant. And I joke in the book that if our joy didn't shift and change, I would still be wearing that Barney the Dinosaur T shirt I was obsessed with at age four.

Yeah.

And that's okay. That's okay. But I find that in equal parts how it can be disorienting when something is no longer working. You know, maybe when it's. Maybe your comfort movie is no longer your comfort movie, maybe your preferred walking path is just not working for you. That can be a little Disorienting of like, why is it not working? Why is my normal routine not doing it? It's actually an invitation to find out what's next and what's the next hobby, the next album, the next book, whatever it may be. And I think reframing that as an exciting opportunity makes it maybe less daunting and more exciting. I was teaching a class for Vanderbilt in New York this summer and I got really interested in this question of what brings you joy? So I started a joy hotline. I got a second phone and I made thousands of stickers that have been put all over the country. And it says, what brings you joy? Text the joy hotline and I leave the phone number. It is so much fun to hear from total strangers their answers. I really didn't expect to get so many voicemails. I thought I was just gonna get texts. But I get the best voicemails of people reflecting on what brings them joy. And it's always funny, they sign off with something like thanks, joy hotline or something like that. It's. It's really been such a fun experiment. But if I can invite people to think critically about their relationship with their own joy through this book, or when they see the joy hotline stickers wherever they may be, then my, my work is done. Even in if step one of what brings you joy is as far as someone gets, I still think that's a really worthwhile experience. And if they want to keep reading for some more in depth, thought provoking questions, there are plenty more where that came from.

So do you teach any joy workshops?

I do.

Okay.

I do. I am really excited for the public speaking piece of all of this to kick into gear. I lecture about joy at Vanderbilt in my class and in other classes. And it's just been, I mean, as you'd imagine, a very joy giving experience for me to get to take this material and, and present it to people. I think a big challenge for me is I'm so used to it, I forget that not everyone knows what I'm talking about when I'm like, oh yes, caps cultivate, adopt, protect and spread. And people were like, what are you talking about? And it's just because I've been steeping in this for so long and that's why it's so exciting that it comes out at the end of February. I'm actually speaking at Federal Medical School next week or something, which we.

That's awesome.

So looking forward to it.

Yeah. Well, I feel like I could talk to you so much more and I am so excited to read the book because I I think so many of these points I'll take with me just from this conversation. I really love the idea also of just like being able to shift your joy throughout your life because I think that can sometimes, as you said, be really daunting of okay, this thing doesn't excite me anymore. I need to find a new thing that takes effort that is, you know, that's discouraging. But reframing that as a new opportunity to find something that is going to bring you happiness. I really, I like that mindset of things. So thank you for this whole entire conversation and everything. Where can people find the book? Where can people find you? Tell us about it.

So Styles of Joy is available everywhere books are sold. It's we're currently in the pre order season. It comes out 2:25 25 I am going on book tour which is very exciting. So if any listeners want to come listen to a Q and A or have a book signed they can go to scprot.com and find all the information there. Speaking engagements, more about me pre ordering the book and all the book tour information. And and I'm on Instagram. It's all I can handle. I don't know how people have multiple platforms. I I am on Instagram under SC Pro Amazing.

And you guys know where to find us Tik Tok and Instagram @Generations MD. And if you have any questions you can email us ataskgenerations mdmail.com and we will talk to you next week. Bye guys.

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