Orthopedics, Business, and Baseball with Dr. Mike Milne

I like that perspective because I think sometimes we get in such a little bubble, and we think that there's definitely.

A superiority complex, that it's a mutual admiration society. Like, you're awesome. No, you're awesome. We're awesome. You know.

Hi, everybody, and welcome to the podcast. My name is Stephanie, and I'm joined here by my colleague, Dr. Sarah Davis, who's also my mother. And today we have a very special guest.

His name is Dr. Mike Milne. He's an orthopedic surgeon, sports medicine, was a former team doctor for the St. Louis Cardinals. He's got an MBA from Wharton, and now he mostly hangs out with his kids. So please welcome to the podcast Dr. Mike Milne. Yay.

Thank you. That would be. You should just go ahead and put that on my tombstone. I would be a happy guy.

That's right.

Good enough.

Well, it. There's a lot going on there in that intro. Can you kind of walk us back and tell us a little bit about your journey towards going to medical school again?

So I went to boys, the rival high school of your father, actually, who went to Rockhurst High School in Kansas City, Kansas, and I went to. To St. Louis U High School in St. Louis, Missouri, both Jesuit boys schools. And I always planned to be a doctor. I took five years of Latin and sciences and all this stuff to go to medical school. And then when I was applying to colleges, I think similar to your father and your uncle, who are twins, I got a nice letter from SMU in Dallas offering me financial aid and scholarships that would pretty much cover the whole thing. And I had never been in the state of Texas before, never been to SMU before and didn't really. I applied on a whim, and I think maybe, like your father, I applied late, and I was assigned to a dorm that was kind of off the beaten path. And on the first day of school, I was walking down the hall, and they used to make these little cutouts of the Mustang and put it on the door and say, like, Mike Milne, St. Louis, Missouri. And on the one across the hall, I saw one said, some guy's name in Overland Park, Kansas, and the other said, some guy's name in Overland Park, Kansas. And the door was open, and I looked in there. I'm like, hey, you guys are both from Overland Park, Kansas. Did you guys know each other before college? And they both looked at me with their twin bedspreads and their one set of books, and like, we're twins, idiot.

Identical twins.

Identical twins. So we became fast friends. Then I pledge of fraternity the first year because I was like a business major kind of guy. They held back for a while. They were already pre med. And then I did my junior year of college at the London School of Economics and considered being an economics PhD or an attorney or I even took the GMAT. And that year away, I kind of re evaluated. I'm like, I was always going to be a doctor. I don't know what happened and I want to do that. And I came back from LSC and said, I want to switch my major to pre med. And the guy's like, you already finished with an econ major, you already finished with a finance major. All you have are core requirements, and if you don't fill those out in this year, then your scholarship is going to end. And if you're serious, you should, you should go ahead and graduate, then come back. And so your father and your uncle both got into medical school and they frankly inspired me to do it because they proved to me that it was possible. And so I went, worked for a year, became a resident of the state of Texas, took some pre med classes at UT in Austin, and then applied to medical school and got into UT Southwestern, did four years there, wanted to do orthopedic surgery from the get go. Was naive enough to think that that was just automatics. And as you got into medical school, you got to pick your specialty and was able to do just well enough to get a spot there at UT Southwestern, which was my first choice. And then I was. Had a great hard experience at UT Southwestern and then did a fellowship in Vail, Colorado at the Steadman Hawkins Clinic, which was also. I was too naive to know that you would get that if you tried for it. That was a great year. And then my mother was in big car crash while I was in Vail and I tried to die with a pulmonary embolism and femur fracture, facial fractures, rib fractures. And so I went back to St. Louis while she recovered because she got a pulmonary embolism and spent about a month in the intensive care unit. And while I was there, I had a mentor in town who I had followed around for a summer. And he was a plastic or he was an orthopedic surgeon. He shared a office with his wife who was a plastic surgeon, and she had available office space. He's like, why don't you just share an office with my wife? So I started my practice, solo practice, straight out of fellowship, with no partners, no nothing. And my first office actually had no X ray machine. I had the silhouette of A woman's body on the front window because it was a plastic surgery office. And so that's where I got my start.

Wow, that's. That's quite a. That's quite a whole mouthful.

Yes, that's. That's the story.

I remember my dad saying that you were like, well, if Matt and Pete can be doctors, then I can be a doctor.

It's a. It's a true, 100% true statement. If. I mean, they literally showed me that it was possible because frankly, no one in my family were doctors. I had high respect for doctors. I had broken my own hand the day before final exams, freshman year of high school, and saw an orthopedic surgeon who I thought was the most amazing person. And I probably modeled off of him, but I didn't know how to do it. And so they kind of taught me the plan. And then another one of our friends in the group actually inspired me to quit my job in banking and do it because he was also quitting a job in accounting about 12 months after we had graduated to do it and had the whole plan worked out in Austin. And I worked on a Friday in Dallas and on a Monday in Austin. I was taking pre med classes both by day at the University of Texas and by night at the Austin Community College to get the physics and the non biologic sciences out of the way. And I took the mcat, you know, about two weeks into organic chemistry, so. But it worked.

Well, I think that's a really good story about kind of taking an unconventional path because I. I know SMU is very business school. You went in there being a business major, and there probably really wasn't weren't that many people that were doing what my dad and my uncle did, doing pre med. And.

And the ones that were there, I never crossed over with.

Mm. So I think that that is inspiring. And then also just being. Yeah, actually having a full time job. Can you speak? I know you just said that your friend inspired you to do that, but really, like, what made you make that leap to leave your job and go back to school and take these classes and do that?

It's a great. Really quick story is. So our friend named Ed Buckingham had met a woman while we were all on a ski trip during college. She was a couple years behind us. He was joining what was then called a big eight accounting firm, and I was joining a bank and he got engaged in Austin. Another friend and I were driving down to their engagement party and on that trip he told me that, have you heard about Ed? I'M like, what about Ed? He's like, ed's quitting his job and he's going to medical school. I'm like, you've got to be kidding me. This has been on my mind. He's like, yeah. He's like, you know, it's like in two weeks. So at the party, I said, ed, is this true? He's like, yeah. I'm like, I need to talk to you about this. And so we talked to. He's like, my wife is going to medical school. I'm going to medical school. I've got this whole plan mapped out. I have an apartment and I sold my car, moved to Austin, bought a cheap car and started classes with him. And part of what inspired me to do it was that I think I got distracted when I went to college. So this is good for young people. I'm like, you know, I got to a college that emphasized the business school. I joined a fraternity right away, and I kind of went with the flow and I kind of lost track of where I was going. And it wasn't until I had that year abroad in London and. But I got a chance to kind of exit that and look at the direction of where I was going and started questioning it. And so like I said, it was already in my mind, but Ed kind of laid out the path. And Ed is now a plastic surgeon in the Austin area. His wife is an oculoplastic surgeon in the Austin area, and she's also a very high profile state politician.

What did your family think of your kind of about face?

So my father was in town on business. I had started volunteering at Presbyterian in the emergency room as a candy striper of my own volition to see if I could handle the environment. That's funny story, because while I was there, I would come straight from the office wearing a full suit and white shirt and tie on a Monday and put on a little orange vest. And I later found out that every person in that emergency room that worked there didn't really want to talk to me because they thought I was a drunk driver or something doing community service. They had. And finally when I explained, like, that is not the case, I'm here trying to decide if I want to be a doctor, they sure started treating me a lot differently. And so my dad was in town. We were at Bubba's Chicken, the Bubba's Chicken place right there in Snyder Plaza, I guess. Is that still there?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So we're sitting there having some chicken strips or something, and my dad says, what's this nonsense your mother's telling me about you wanting to go to medical school? And I said, that is true. I'm volunteering at the hospital. I'm trying to make this decision, but I don't. I haven't been telling anyone because I don't want the pressure to do it if I. If I decide I don't want to do it. And he's like, well, what's wrong with business? He was a CFO type of guy. And I'm like, dad, you know, it's great for you. You're the boss. I'm like, but you're the. I don't have 20 years to give you this to be the boss, so. And I said, this is not an attempt to go back on the family payroll. So I will. I'll pay for it all myself. And so I did. So I was. I moved to Austin, started waiting tables and. And was able to pay for it.

I think just the way of looking at your life, of being like, okay, well, this is not something I want to be doing. And actually, like, making that jump and switching things up is really hard for a lot of people who take the traditional path of going to medical school of, okay, I go to college now I go to medical school, then I go to residency. And just seeing everything as very straightforward, do you feel like looking at your life, there's been other instances where you've been able to kind of divert from the path and do something different?

Yeah, for sure. And I think that it actually was a feature, not a bug for me, you know, Then I retired at 49.9 years old. I had some medical issues going on and some other life issues and that. And so my wife wanted to also relocate. But in any case, I just thought by me having that real world work experience and having experience, you know, quote, unquote, what other people, other young people of my same generation are doing. It actually gave me more inspiration to do it because I knew what the alternative was. And I saw in some of my classmates who may be like you, both your parents are doctors. They've been trained to be a doctor. Their siblings are doctors or grandparents or doctors, whatever. They. That was their pathway. And some of them, including the woman that I dated most in med school, I wasn't sure that she really was choosing this career as much as this was just the pathway or the expectation. And I think that me having work experience a probably helped me interview and get over the hurdle to get into medical school, because I. I was treated that more like a job interview. Than a school interview and also helped me get the residency and stuff because I knew how to be a worker. And, you know, right now you're an academic. But, you know, I think this year or when your clinical rotation start, it's more about being a worker than being an academic. You know, you're. Your residents are going to rely on you and they're going to learn either that you're a trustworthy person or not. Every rotation, your reputation will precede you. They will have some recon on you before you show up.

Yeah, that's so true. Because right now also, no one else is depending on me. I'm studying for my tests and it's just me. Like, if I don't work hard enough, then I'm not going to do as well on my test versus in rotations. And then actually in the real, real world, everybody else is depending on, on you.

Also a feature, not a bug. Because you can, you know, I don't know if you live alone, but living alone gives you the freedom to control your home environment. You can. You're not answering to a spouse or a boyfriend or girlfriend or children or other. The pressures about that. And, you know, there's a lot of. It's hard to get through med school. I think your parents were, I don't know. Sarah, were you married in medical school or residency?

No, we got married during residency.

Yeah. So, you know, so that was different. Right. But I appreciate the fact that I got to. I was able to go through medical school and residency and frankly, fellowship. I was single throughout that whole time. I had significant others and people that I really cared about. But at the end of the day, I didn't have to come home and answer to a couple children or anything like that. And my dad told me that when I told him that I was thinking about doing this, he's like, listen, when I was your age, I had my first job, I was married, I had a mortgage, and I had a child. And that child was, you know, and so I. He's like, you could frankly go screw around for 10 years and you probably won't be any worse off for where.

So elaborating on that, I do think your path was a little interesting because you did get married a lot later in life and start your family a lot later in life. So I kind of just wanted you to take us through that. As far as, like, how old were you when you actually got married? You. You worked for, I think you told me before, like, 17 years. You worked super hard as an orthopedic surgeon. I don't know if that, if that number is correct, but like kind of walk through that part of the path.

Yeah, you're right. So I was 43 when I actually got married for the first time. And you know, I lived in Dallas all through that training and then Vail. And it was easy to be a single person in a city like Dallas when you move to a place like St. Louis. Being single in your early 30s and being very busy with your work makes things harder. And I had a couple significant girlfriends before finally I met the person that I was supposed to marry. So I married a woman that had been married and divorced. I. I never had met her before. I got set up with her, in essence on a pseudo blind date because of an orthopedic injury of a acquaintance of mine. So this fellow that I was friends with, an ear, nose and throat surgeon, and he called me one afternoon, he said, hey, our friend Jimmy has just crashed a Vespa scooter. He's going to this hospital. There's a lot of stuff wrong with him. Can you come up there and see him? I'm like, I'll come, but I don't have privileges at that hospital. I don't know what I can do for him there, but I'll come back. So we came up and he was all cut up and big flaps of skin and broken bones and stuff. He had broken his collarbone, he had torn his ACL on one knee and he had torn his medial collateral ligament and medial meniscus on the other knee. So he needed three surgeries. And so I started seeing this guy, you know, I was doing one surgery, then the next, then the next over about six months. So I'm seeing him every two weeks. And he was just persistent. He's like, are you married? Single, whatever. And I was single. And he's like, you got to meet this woman. And I'm like, yeah, I'm good, you know. And so finally he just was persistent, like, you got to meet this person. And he's like, we'll set up a happy hour or something like that and see, all can meet in a non stressful environment. And I'm like, man, I'm 41 years old or something. I'm like, you know, I'm a grown up. Why don't you just give me her phone number? So he gave me her phone number and I called her on the phone and my opening line was, her name is Ellen. And I'm like, ellen, you have a big problem because this fellow Jimmy is giving your Phone number off to strange men, including me.

So.

And she had been, as I said, had been married for a long time, had been divorced for a couple years. I had never met she or her husband before. She had three children, which are now my children. And we got married about 18 months later and she had full legal and physical custody of those children. And so in our house there are no steps or halves. We have these three kids and we've had two more together. So five kids.

Wow. So went from being single to being married and dad of three in one night.

So literally we got married and we actually had two weddings and we got married secretly and I, you know, went from being a single guy. We decided that I would move to her house so as to not displace the children. So moved out of my house, moved into her house and went from no kids to three kids overnight. They were probably 11 and 9 and 6 at the time.

Well, I mean, are you happy with the way that you're, you kind of set up your life of being like, okay, I went and I tried this career path, then I went and I did medicine and now I'm kind of doing a family thing. I think it's a really unique way. Also have to acknowledge that unfortunately as women we're kind of not able to set up our lives this way because we do have like a ticking clock.

But yeah, no, I think it's, those are true statements. And for women it's much more complicated. My 18 year old daughter is planning a career in medicine herself. And so she is in the process of getting accepted to colleges now. And she's the first. Two boys have both been undergraduate business guys. One's graduate of USC and doing great in a medical startup and second guy is out interviewing for great jobs right now. And our daughter has already gotten some good acceptances and still waiting to see where she gets to pick. But I do think there are, you know, it's not sexist, it's just realist of there are some trade offs that have to occur. Your mom was able to, to make it happen, but it can, you know, it's a, it's a harder balance for me. I could go 100 into medicine and then my practice grew really well because of that, because I was available and I would say yes. And my business grew by word of mouth. I wasn't part of a network or anything like that. And so that all helped. And then by being older also, I had better perspective and I also had my finances in order and so those were all helpful parts. So I think for, you know, I have another niece who's considering a mid level provider type of role, like a nurse practitioner. And she's I think made that trade off about having a family and that she's like, listen, if I do NP or I do CRNA or something like that, I can control, control my schedule a little bit better. But Stephanie, you'll be able to figure it out. And when I was in MBA school, I went to MBA school after or near the conclusion of my career. I started when I was 48 and so most of the people in my class were about 35 and a lot of them were women and very high end professional women doing Wharton, MBA executive program every other weekend in addition to working full time in San Francisco. So all the way from Seattle down through Dallas. You know, they used things like freezing their eggs and IVF and stuff so that they could kind of extend that. And that's really worked out for several of them.

So you got married, but then when did you stop being an orthopedic surgeon?

Well, yeah, it's kind of like being. No, I wouldn't insult Marines like that. I was about to say it's kind of like being a Marine. Once a Marine, always a Marine. But as an orthopedic surgeon. Yeah, yeah, I am still board certified. And Sarah, you would laugh to know that In October of 2024, having not practiced since 2018, I went and took my boards. And so. And at the ripe old age of 56 years old, with a three day cram session, I was able to knock out the orthopedic sports boards and become board certified for another 10 years. But I stopped practicing in 2018. And then, you know, we, we moved. I was planning on. And I started the MBA around that time. We moved also during that time as well.

Can I ask about the mba? Why, why do that?

Well, I think I told you when I was an undergrad, I considered it. I took the GMAT in 1988. I took it again in 2016. And so that might be the longest between attempts at any standardized test in history and their cognitive decline. My score went down by about 50 points. But you know, for some reason or another I had a lot of, I guess because I had this business undergraduate degree and then I had this availability of these entrepreneurship roles within my practice because it was a private practice and I started it from scratch and I started another one and some surgery centers and things like that. I had all this entrepreneurship already happening and so I just really wanted to formalize that knowledge. And then Also with my health problems that I was having, I, I had to have three surgeries on my abdomen in about six months. I lost a third of my body weight. A lot of people thought that I was secretly hiding a pancreatic cancer or something that I wasn't telling people. And then I, that's why I quit. I, I resigned abruptly and I was pretty sick. You know, I just thought, well, what, what will I do after if I can't, if I can't do surgery?

Yeah.

So it was a hedge and. But I'll tell you, as smart as the people are in your med school class and you as a group, you'll get together and you think you are the smartest people ever. And when I went to medical school, if it was the first time, I thought, I'm like, I am not the smartest person here. Everywhere before I'm like, I always thought I was the smartest. People in MBA school, people in law school, people are working on Wall street, people that are working in tech. Those people are also super smart. And I don't think as a group of doctors that we really understand. And when I was 48 and surrounded by these 35 year old hotshots, I could not have been more impressed by my classmates. And I used to tell them, I'm like, I'm taking bets on which of you people are going to change the world because they're amazing.

I like that perspective because I think sometimes we get in such a little bubble and we think that there's definitely a superiority complex, that it's a, it's.

A mutual admiration society. Like, you're awesome. No, you're awesome. We're awesome. You know, so, so. And we think, we also think we work the hardest. Right?

And yes. Yeah, I don't. We talk about.

Yeah, yeah. You just think you're getting killed and you know, your parents will probably tell you you're doing nothing compared to what they did, etc. All doctors love to tell you how it was harder back in their day. But to be successful in any career if you want to be. You know, I took care of a lot of athletes in my life. And to see the hours that athletes put in from the time they're 10 years old till the time they make Major League Baseball or the NFL, they outworked you and their odds of making that team are a lot less than all you and your classmates odds of getting through med school and residency.

Yeah, I want to talk about athletics and sports med for a little bit. I have a lot of ortho bro friends and some people that are really into that. You talked about putting a lot in your private practice and then how were you able to grow to be able to be the team doc for the Cardinals?

You said, yeah, yeah. So, you know, when I finished fellowship, I started that solo practice. I went to Dr. Steadman, who was my mentor along with Dr. Hawkins, two of the greatest gentleman, the biggest name in the history of orthopedics. And Vail was the place to go back then. And I told Dr. Steadman, I'm like, my mother's been in this terrible crash. She's going to need to recuperate. They had offered me a job as they were opening a new clinic in the Carolinas. It was going to open six to nine months. I'm like, maybe I'll just go home and take care of my mom and hang a shingle and sort this out. I'm like, do you think I'm crazy? And he said, I, I didn't say that. I'm like, does anyone do this? He goes, no one in the last 15 years. And I'm like, well, this is nuts. You know, I didn't have. I killed myself in med school to get into residency. I killed myself in residency to get the right fellowship to learn from you. And now I'm going to go back and start a practice that I could have probably gone to Jim and Bob's medical school and done that. And he said, yeah, but you wouldn't have been able to do it as well. And I'm like, yeah, whatever. And he was so right. All that great training, was it. So his reputation and the name brandedness of that fellowship I think really gave me credibility in my market. And then I had a hip fracture myself, a ski crash when I was in solo practice, which kind of inspired me to think about joining a group. And there was another really well known doctor who's a great guy in St. Louis who was coming out of Washington University that had been taking care of the Cardinals for years. He was going to go join that group. He invited me to join him in that group. And then he said, and you can be my assistant for the team. And so I got to do that with him for several years. And then through permutations I left the group to go find to start a new group. Cardinals gave me a contract for a while and then ultimately the Cardinals hired him back dry left, which was fortunate timing for me because I was going to need to resign anyway because my wife gave me the ultimatum in 2016. Business school, Cardinals second baby, pick two. And so I was going to pick business school and a baby. So that worked out. And taking care of a pro team is a great honor. It is super stressful. It's a young man's game. And so I was happy to check out without any major catastrophes. But I'm still a huge fan of the Cardinals in the organization.

I think that's an important part because I think maybe that might be glamorized a little bit. But I mean, my dad just does like smu. But yes, it's still like lots of traveling and lots of being away and I can't imagine having young kids and do and trying to balance all of that.

Yeah, and he might tell you as well. I mean, in my opinion, the sweet spot for doing sports medicine is taking care of Division 2 and Division 3 college and good high school athletes. Because at that, at those levels, it's still 100% love of the game and there's not the secondary gain issues and all the spoons in the soup with regard to teams and agents and contracts and all that stuff. And you got to have thick skin to be a doctor for one of the major teams because your, your name's going to be in the paper and because of hipaa, you can, you can never comment. And so a lot of times the doctor will take it on the chin if a player hasn't come back on time or things like that. So it's really fun and it made my father really happy. My dad had been a ticket taker and an usher for the Cardinals when he was in College. So for 30 years later, for his son to be the doctor made him really happy. And that was a big part of why I wanted to do it.

Cute. And by the way, Stephanie, your dad did do all that SMU stuff when you were young and let me tell you, it was kind of a pain for me.

Yeah.

Yeah. Well, it was fun for me to see the doctors Davis on the sidelines. Whenever I flip on an SMU game and things, I'm always looking to see if I can see him or frankly, my sister will also, if she sees a screenshot of him, she'll send me a photo that says there's matter. There's Pete.

Yeah, it is. He does. He. He enjoys it. But it is, it's a, it's a big time commitment and it's a, you know, and then the travel and of course SMU is good now, so that's going to be even more travel. And so anyway, it is.

But they. Sure they the team and the doctors all deserve it because they've. They've worked so hard since. Since the death penalty back in the 80s. So I couldn't be happier for the guys.

Yeah, that's exciting.

In regards to orthopedic surgery now, there's so many people I talk to, all want to go into that field. And I know you talked about how you went into med school thinking, knowing that you wanted to be an orthopedic surgeon. Can you just speak a little bit on behalf of, like, how if you're happy that you chose that specialty or any sort of, like, cons.

Yeah, I was. I was super, super happy with that specialty. You know, I. I would do it again. If I were young again. People said, would you do it again? I always have to say, if I were that same age again, I would do it again. I wouldn't start over now. They said, hey, you got to go do five years of residency to continue to practice. Like, no, thanks. So you're going to do self discovery as you do all these rotations, and that's what these rotations are designed around for you to figure out what clicks with you. And, you know, my advice, and I've had a lot of students and med students and high school students and colleges shadow me over the years, and that's one of the best things to do, I'm sure you've done that, is find someone five to 10 years out and follow them around in their life and see it. I did that between first and second year of med school. Followed a guy, my mom had torn a race hill and ski crash, and she talked to the doctor who, my aunts were all nurses, and said, this is the guy to see. And he was a boisterous guy. And she said, hey, my son wants to be an orthopedic surgeon. Can he follow you around? And. And he said, yes. And so I showed up in May, and I could tell on the first day that he had no idea. I had no recollection of telling some lady that her son could follow him around for three months. And so I just, you know, I tried it on, and I'm like, listen, I love this guy's practice. I love his patients, I love his surgeries, I love his office, I love his house, I love his family, I love his. I want to be this guy, you know, I'm like. And so it was so easy to model on that. That was good. But also, you know, I don't know, I was also interested in the other hard things, you know, and if you are trying to save people's lives. That means sometimes you're not going to save someone's life. And, you know, in taking care of traumas and stuff like that, and burn surgery and all the rotations I did as a resident, people died. And that was very hard on me. My temperament and personality was not designed for that. So I couldn't do it. So ortho is, you're pretty normal, fine, great. You are broken, we get together, you are fixed, you are back to normal, healthy high fives. Call me next time. And I love that part about it. So I never saved a life. I saved some lifestyle. They say I saved some sports lives and some weekend warrior lives and some getting back to work lives for policemen and firemen and cops and construction workers, policemen and firemen. Our policemen and cops are the same thing. But anyway, that's, that's where I got my fulfillment. And orthopedic surgery, the way I did it, sports medicine, arthroscopic surgery was basically video game surgery. And I was really good at video games as a kid. And orthopedic surgery, sports medicine, arthroscopy came extremely easy to me. I. It was, I was very facile at it. I was quick and effective. I never had a lawsuit against me in my entire career. I never had a really bad outcome. I mean, we had complications along the way, but it really worked out great.

Well, do you miss it? You miss operating?

Yes, I do. And, you know, that waxes and wanes over time. For the first few months, I missed it a lot. And then after the stress of the last 25 years of, you know, when you operate on somebody, and Stephanie, this is important for you when you decide your specialty. I say when you operate or when you intervene on someone. I used to tell people, if I put a scar on you, I have married you. Which means, you know, we are. We are stuck together for eternity, you know, and if you're not happy or your outcome is not good, our outcome is not good. And so whether you're on call or not on call, whatever, 24, 7, 365, for 25 years of my life, there was someone who had operated on two days ago or someone that I was going to operate on next week that was on my brain. And so six to nine months after retiring, that stress finally wore off me. And, you know, and I think that's why had to have all these stomach surgeries, because the stress was so much. I'm like, I can't jump back into that pot again with the stress. And as I said, you know, medically, some neurologic complications, I think of the surgeries and things like that made me not feel like I was 100%. I knew to myself I would not be able to operate at the level I was ready to operate at again. So I let that go. If I practice clinical medicine again, which I might, now that my youngest is 9 years old, I'm thinking about doing something clinical again. I don't think so. Surgery will be part of it.

Well, I think that's so important to know when to take a step back, because not everyone can do that so that.

Especially surgeons. I mean, you'll run into surgeons in the hospital and that are past their prime by a lot. And we had an older gentleman join our practice, and he was a great guy, but when he joined, there were three of the other. I had started a new practice in 13 and had two other friends and partners with me. And when he joined him, we took him aside. I'm like, listen, if, you know, we question your ability in the operating room, or if an X ray doesn't look right to us, or they're saying, like, if two of the three of us vote to take your driver's license away, you got to give up your driver's license. You're not going to fight us on this. We're going to tell you when it's time. It's the same with literally taking away the driver's license of your grandparent or something. But a lot of doctors continue to do it maybe past when they want to do it or when they're good at doing it or when they're up to date to do it, because it's their whole personality, it's their whole identity. It is. They maybe made some bad financial decisions or didn't live within their means and they have to do it. And I never wanted to be in that position.

Yeah, you don't hear about doctors retiring that early ever. So how do you keep yourself busy now?

You know what's funny is most weeks you will think I'm not telling the truth, but most weeks I'm like, I don't know how I had time to work 50, 60 hours a week as a surgeon. And so as I told you, I was a workaholic when I married my wife and got three kids. And she. She was used to taking care of those kids pretty much alone. So that was not that big of a deal. But she agreed nicely enough to have two more kids with me. And so then I kind of missed a lot of stuff. And she's smart woman and a tough woman. She's like, listen, if we're going to have more kids, you got to be a 50, 50 partner in this and you have to change your lifestyle. And so I was already looking at cutting back some and it's been great. You know, my three older kids are ready to launch and I've got a fifth grade daughter and a third grade son who I drive to school and pick up to go to practices and things like that. And then I'm not exactly doing nothing. I was lucky financially with things like surgery centers and ancillaries and MRI machines and medical billing companies. And then after the mba, I got some boards of directors and advisorships and all that stuff. So it's not like I'm doing nothing, but I can control my own schedule. So you can find me on a mountain bike, you know, at 11:00am on a Tuesday, somebody much more famous than I said. That's, you know, Learjets or not Learjets anymore, global jets and citations and that. That's not success. Success is having freedom on Tuesday at 11:00am yeah.

Or the freedom to go pick up your kids from school and, you know, take them.

And moms are, moms are smart. They've been doing that for years. And the men, we didn't know how good that was, that first five minutes when they get in the car. That's amazing.

Yeah. And you can't get that time back, you know, once it's gone, it's gone. So I'm glad you're enjoying that.

I am. And they're great kids and I'm just looking forward to watching them grow up as well.

Well, we won't take up too much of more of your time. I know you just had friends get in and everything, but I ask all the guests this. Do you have any advice? For myself, just at the beginning of this medical school journey, we have a lot of listeners who are either in the pre med phase of things or early in their medical career. What advice would you give to those people?

So because I've listened to so many of your podcasts, I actually knew you were going to ask me this question.

I love it.

You studied? I studied at 2x speed. I studied and so I wrote some down. If you want about three or four minutes, I will tell you 10 things that I think were vital to me. So is that cool or you just want.

Yeah, I love it.

I love that you're the gunner of the podcast.

I only wanted to come in at least second last because I hear Dr. Matthew Davis is the worst guest.

True.

So as long as I finish before Matt, then everybody's happy. So, number one, model your career on someone who's five to 10 years out. Don't necessarily model it on your attendings or the residents because you're going to find some residents you really love and you're going to find some residents you really hate. You're going to find some attendings the same, but for the majority of people, that will not be the environment that they will practice for their next 30 years of their life. And so really try to find some mentorship or that someone is kind of living the life that you actually envision. And if you're going to be academic, that's great. But know that I think that's really a junction point in your careers if you're going to go academic or some other model. Number two is like part of my success and my ability to retire young was because for one reason or another, my special sauce was knowing the money, knowing the finances, making the businesses work, and having equity in most of the things that I was part of. And so number two is know the numbers and, you know, get mentorship and, you know, have people look over your parents can help you look over your first contracts and things like that. Understand what those things really mean. The favorite pastime of older orthopedic surgeons is taking advantage of younger orthopedic surgeons. So you need somebody on your team looking out for you. Number three during each of your rotations, especially in residency, when you finally pick your specialty, is I spent the last six months of my fellowship only asking one question again and again is what if I screw this part up? What do I do? What do I screw this part up? What do I do? What if the screw pulls out of the bone? How do I fix that? What if I break the bone that I'm putting a screw into? What if I hit a blood vessel that I didn't know was behind the bone? So anybody can fly a plane when it's straight and level on a sunny day. And you need to be able to. What separates you is your ability to solve the problems when the problems happen. Just like these recent plane crashes and stuff. Some of these pilots have done a great job of keeping everybody alive. And then interview the staff when you, if you're, you know, when you finally find your specialty. I went around also and asked all the long term employees of the doctors that I worked for, I'm like, you've been here 21 years, why are you still here? And they would say, Things like, we like him, we respect him, he treats us well, he pays us well, he defends us from rude patients. You know, he cares about his patients, things like that. So ask them why, why they're there. Because an older orthopedic surgeon in England actually gave me the advice. He's like, you need to hire a dragon. Like, what does that mean? He goes, you need a dragon to guard the castle. I'm like, what does that mean? He goes, you need a medical assistant that is going to be with you for the duration who's going to defend you and protect you from things. And so I had that person in my, in my career and then control the spend. Very few humans get to control how much they make in a year. Every human should be able to control what they spend. Doctors are terrible about deferred kind of compensation or deferred gratification, I guess. And so I've been training for so long, for so many hours, for so little dollars. And, you know, I wanted. I want a good car. You know, I want. My wife wants a good house or whatever. If you can just live like a resident for a couple few more years after you get out and make your first real check, that early money invested well can separate your freedom from your lack of freedom during the middle or later part of your career. Know your special sauce. What is it about you that makes you you and the great doctor that you are? And you know, when I got into medical school, I did not have the highest grades because I was an undergrad business guy years before. I did not have the best MCAT score because I hadn't even taken organic chemistry when I took the test. But I got enough to get over the bar to get an interview at UT Southwestern. And I happened to be interviewed by a neurosurgeon who I think is still practicing. His name is Dr. Tom Kapitnik. And Dr. Kapitnik interviewed me and I mentioned this as interviewing for the job. I'm like, I. I addressed my weaknesses. I'm like, Dr. Kapitnik, I am not the highest grades, highest MCAT, best scores of anybody that you're meeting today. And he's like, I don't actually care about that. And he's like, I can train a monk. This is. These are quotes. I can train a monkey to do neurosurgery. He's like, what I need is a guy that will get out of bed at 3 o' clock in the morning when my kid's in a car wreck. So that was very important to me. And I Tried to live my whole life. I'm like, I'm that guy and I try to live my whole career like that. And the last one is just be authentic to yourself. Don't let your friends, your competitors, your favorite attending, your parents, your boyfriend, spouse, whatever, decide what kind of career or doctor you should be. You know, like, doctors are always going to have a pretty good living. All humans always want more. And so even though doctors are highly compensated people, they always want more. And they look at the finance people or this, like, how come they make all that? And I'm killing myself for this. Pick what you want to be and, and be what you want to be. And if it pays you a lot of money, that's great. But as I said, the real freedom is having Tuesdays at 11am so get to the, get to that mental finish line as fast as you can. And don't kill yourself young or you may not last and you may physically die or you may just emotionally die. So keep going. So that's it.

That was awesome. And I'm so excited to share that with, with all of our listeners and spread it to all my friends. I was, as you're talking, I was like, I'm definitely going to send this in all the group chats and everything, so thank you for all of that.

Yeah, well, good. Like I said, I, I, you always ask that question. So I knew the question was coming. So I thought about it. So anyway, the old tests, I studied the old test. And as I told Stephanie, when I first heard your guys's podcast, that you had a podcast and listened to them, when your dad told me about this nine months where I'm like, give me Matt, give me Sarah's number, I gotta call her. And I was just so impressed with this podcast and that you guys are doing this and it's such a good connection for you two and I think it's great service for your fellow med students. So good for you.

Thank you so much. And thank you so much for being here. We really appreciate it. This was an awesome episode.

Awesome. I hope I get to see you guys soon. Take care. Thanks, Sarah.

You don't have anything to plug? I guess I don't have anything.

I don't have anything to plug. I do have a couple business things that are kind of in stealth mode here. I don't have anything to plug. You know, I'm always happy to help mentor and talk to young people. I actually went down this road a while ago as I thought doctors really need what creative artists and athletes and that they almost need an agent model. They need someone who's been around the block to help them navigate through the early years, because the early years are what makes the difference. So if anyone needs to get a hold of me, they can do that through you guys.

Great. Well, we'll let you go. I know you have guests to entertain and stuff, but thank you so much for being here.

Thanks so much for being here.

All right, good luck. Keep us updated on your progress through med school.

And you guys know where to find us at generationsmd on TikTok and Instagram. And if you have any questions or interested in being a guest on the podcast, you can email us at askgenerations md@gmail com and we will talk to you next week. Bye, guys. Bye. Keep your Good night.

Good.