Practicing Medicine the Way You Want To with Dr. Mitra

Just like that. We also hear that doctors are not good at business, and I. I really, really don't believe that. Yeah, it is so much easier compared to your day job, what you do. Saving lives all day long is a lot harder.

Hi, Baker. Welcome to the podcast. This is Dr. Sarah Davis from Generations, Maryland, and I have a very special guest with me today. Well, she is a practicing nephrologist, but she also is a fantastic female physician entrepreneur. And I am going to let you tell a little bit more about yourself.

But yes, absolutely. Hi, Dr. Sarah. Thank you so much for having me on the podcast. This is really exciting. My name is Mitra Sadhu. I'm a nephrologist down in Florida. I run a lean private practice, work part time, and spend the rest of my time doing other things I love, including creating solutions for physicians in private practice so we can all have more options and. And practice medicine the way we dream of.

Nice. Nice. Yeah. Tell me, when you say lean private practice, does that mean just kind of the definition of a lean practice, or is that something very specific?

That's an excellent question. So lean is not. Doesn't look a certain way. Lean is really a way of thinking. Lean principles embody the fact that you are laser focused and providing value to your customers, or in our case, our patients, while cutting out all the fluff, minimizing waste. So one can do it in any kind of practice, in any kind of setting, no matter whether you're big or small, because it is ultimately an innovation that changes our mindset and therefore how we do things.

That's. I. I mean, I really. I totally agree with that philosophy that I know when I first opened my practice, which was in 2002, and I decided I was. I had read an article about people doing this, quote, concierge medicine, but nobody was doing it in my area. And I started talking about doing it, and everybody said, oh, that's never going to work. You know, people. People want to use their insurance and they're not going to pay out of pocket for things. And I was like, you know, I just. I think people would pay for this because I hear so many people complaining about not being able to get the time and attention from their doctor and all that. And so I said, you know, I'm gonna start this practice, you know, open up this practice. But, you know, I kind of used all of those things of I. At that time, for sure, I needed to have a physical space for my office. Um, some people I know are now doing that, you know, a little bit more remotely but at that time, that was, you know, that was really not even an option then. But still I got the very small space. I got, you know, I hired just one employee. I really kind of did everything as small scale as I could. And I found Even more than 20 years later, I haven't needed to expand any of those things. But I think that that's one of the things that physicians do when they try to open up a practice. I sometimes do these consults with people who are trying to start concierge medical practices and they'll come to me and I'll say, okay, well, I'm all up and running. I've got a 5,000 square foot office in this great part of town and I have all these lasers and I have all of this other stuff. Now how do I get patients? And I'm like, okay, no, it doesn't work that way. You've got it kind of backwards, but it sounds like you've sort of taken that lean stuff to a whole nother level.

So yes, my philosophy was very similar right at the outset. From the very beginning, after finishing training, I always knew that I wanted to work part time because I'm the primary parent for my children. My husband is a physician as well and he works two fte, so. So I wanted to save my best energy really for not only my patients, but my kids as well. And in the beginning, I did some independent contractor gigs to give my some flexibility. That was great, but there wasn't more to. So when I wanted to do a little more and I went out exploring and interviewed with some groups in town, I found that there were two basic or broad categories. I could either work 100 hours a week and get into the partnership track, which wasn't really my goal, or I could work a couple days a week. But there was no growth. Yeah, potential. It was going to be that same way. And without anything to look forward to. And not just that, that privilege comes with a heavy discount and compensation, as has been well documented by many, many people in different fields, not just in medicine. So that's what got me thinking how I could be my own boss as well as continue to work part time. So if I was going to run a practice that and I was going to work part time, I'd have to keep it lean. And that is how really the idea was born. And I honed in on the two biggest expenses for a small practice, namely office space. So in the office space side, I work out of a shared workspace location on my rent is really low. My when I did the basic back of the napkin calculation before starting. I was like, oh, my God, this can actually work. So that was really freeing. And again, I started as a micro practice, just like you. I did all of it from front to back. Whether it was answering the phones or doing my own billing, I did all of it. Finally, when my volume built up, that's the point at which I hired a virtual assistant to buy back my time. And that's where I'm at.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I think that's so smart. But you have to do it. You kind of got to do it in that order. I mean, the other way. The other thing that's nice about that is when you build it up from the ground up yourself, you know how to do everything, and you can make sure that everything is being done properly because, you know, I mean, you set it up to be the right way. I mean, it's. It's a, you know, it's a lot of work. And I think a lot of physicians don't really like that idea, or they think, oh, I just want to practice medicine. I want somebody else to take care of it. But the bottom line is nobody else is going to take care of it the way that you take care of it. You just can't trust those. All of that to somebody else. So I think that's. I think that's very smart. And then again, once you, Once you're up and running, yes, you can delegate that to other people, but you can always take a quick look and making sure. Make sure that it's being done properly.

100. 100. And, you know, this is true about any small business. An electrician or anybody else would never think that it's okay to not know how every part of their business is run. They just consider it part of the game. I think we have not, in general kind of recognized or. Or accepted that a medical practice is also a business, a small business. And so we do need to take care of that. And really, it's not hard. It's kind of the same way that doctors get a bad rap. We're not good with money just like that. We also hear that doctors are not good at business. And I, I really, really don't believe that. Yeah, it is so much easier compared to your day job, what you do. Saving lives all day long is a lot harder. But for some reason, that's been the narrative. Yes, it may not be enjoyable, but, hey, writing notes is not enjoyable, or learning the Krebs cycle is not enjoyable, but we made ourselves do it. And Once you learn is it's front loaded. You learn it at the beginning and then like you said, you can outsource it and tell people exactly how to do it. And that's what makes it your own.

Yeah, yeah, no, I. Oh, I totally agree. What the. So this comes up a lot because we don't get a lot of training in doing this during our medical school and residency. How do you recommend that doctors kind of get better at this skill? I mean, for me, it was just kind of, you know, just sort of jumping in and starting to do it and then realizing what needs to be done. But I don't know, are there any, are any ways, like any, any resources that you've used that helped you with any of that?

So there, I don't think there's a good answer to that. I used to the resource called Dr. Google. It's amazing how much you can find if you go down rabbit holes.

Yes.

Yeah, that. You're absolutely right. And there isn't a good, comprehensive, easy resource at this time. Some of it is also because everybody is looking to do it slightly differently stuff. But yes, that is a shortcoming I think we'll need to fulfill if. Yeah, we want more of our younger colleagues to follow suit. Especially as things are changing in medicine, especially as the burnout is rampant and especially as the employed physicians are not looking half as attractive as they seem to be in the beginning. This is something, it's a viable option for so many people, especially because you can craft it exactly the way you like. You decide what you want and you make the math work and then you just shape the rest of it based on your values and ethics. And it can be done. I think private practices today and tomorrow are going to look really different from how they've been even a short decade back. And we have to get used to that idea. Our patients have to get used to that idea. But it's coming. The change is here and it's here to stay.

Yeah. And I think in a lot of ways it's really, it's. It's helpful for us. I mean, I just think about all the stuff that I had to set up when I was starting my practice. Like I had to get a landline phone because that's what, that's what you used in those days. And my bill was like $300 a month just for this phone because I had to have these different lines and all of that. And, you know, now I have a Google Voice that's like 15 bucks a month or something. And so some of those things are really, you know, can be a lot more efficient. But. But it does, but it changes all the time. And you have to always be kind of looking at things like, okay, wait, I'm spending this much money on this thing. Is there a way that I can do this more efficiently now? And a lot of that stuff is getting better and cheaper and all of that. So I think that. That. I think that that's something that doctors don't always realize when they are starting up a practice that maybe the startup costs maybe don't have to be as big as they once were. And it sounds like you've done that with this shared medical space. Now, tell me more about that. Because I. I have to say, when you first say that to me, I'm just like, wait, what? Like, my patients are gonna go, and you might be in a different space, different times. So, like, they're seeing you one time, and it's one space, and then it may be a different space. Is that. Do I have that right?

Yes. So I am currently in a shared workspace location. I may not be in the same room each time they see me. And. And it's always fun with the patients. They're like, doc, which way are you today? Yeah, but. That's right, it is not the same space each time. And, you know, I didn't start off feeling this comfortable about it because I had not come across anybody who was really doing this unless they were maybe thinking of retiring or something like that, winding down or something. Here I was trying to grow a new practice and, you know, have it reach new heights, and I was doing this. So I. It wasn't comfortable. In the beginning, I. I would mumble something when patients ask, doc, why are you in a space like this? But gradually, I think what I realized, and that took time. I realized that I am providing the value to my patients exactly. Exactly as I would ever. Probably even better than if I had a traditional office with lots of staff around me and stuff, Because I was able to give them time and attention. I was not needing to squeeze in patients and see 30 patients a day or anything of the sort. I was able to sleep just fine at night because my overheads were so low. And so I was taking care of them as best as I could. Once this realization sank in, I began to show up differently. I was not apologizing anymore for what I was doing. But that shift did take some work and some time, and it helped to have some external validation as well. The reviews started coming in. All the things about the Time and the attention and the care and the explanation because patients are actually looking for those things and they're often not feeling seen or heard in the, in the assembly line that it has almost become for not no one person's fault.

Yeah, well, I think it's brilliant. I mean, I really do. I, I think it, because it is, that's just a huge expense also. I mean when I first opened my office I had to build it out and in order to do that I had to sign an eight year lease when I first started, which I look back and I'm like, I'm really lucky that it all worked out because I was trying out a brand new concept and, and I think about, oh my gosh, I signed an eight year lease. That was, that was kind of crazy. And so, you know, all of that just gives you like, you know, gives you a lot of anxiety to be, you know, that much all in. And so I think it's much nicer to be lean and to have those to, to say, oh, okay, well good, you know, let me try this out and just see how it works. And then you know, obviously it, it's working well for you and then you can kind of keep going with it. But I think that that's very, I, I think that's smart. I think that that's something particularly for Dr. You want to start up your own practice. You maybe have a certain, you know, like a particular way you want to open this practice and maybe it's a little something, a little niche and you're not really sure if it's going to work well, rather than signing a big lease, taking out all that overhead. I think that's, I think it's really brilliant.

Thank you. Thank you. You know, if I could, I, I mean it would make it a lot more easier if I could do it in a medical only kind of space. Which is why if I may bring up link medical Spaces, the, the website I just opened up. So that was born out of my own need. I was looking to sublet space from an established practice in my neck of the woods, but I had nowhere to turn to, no resource to turn to. I cold called a few practices and the response was anything, the most lukewarm work out for me. And that is why I ended up in this space. It is not strictly medical. There are lawyers there and therapists there, a couple of other medical people. But, but yes, it would be much more or much less out of the box to, to sublet space from another established practice. And so that's why I created this online platform where people can do just that. It's, it's a platform where if you have some room, extra room in your office space, then you can list it there so that if somebody is looking for a room or two, either part time or full time, they can browse these listings and find a place close to them that works for exactly this reason.

Well, I think that's very smart as well. Because, you know, I think that's. There are so many doctors, I mean, I think about surgeons in particular who operate several days a week and then they have their office.

Exactly.

And you know, a lot of times it works out that they can find another surgeon that wants to, you know, be in that, be in that space. But to get that proper, that perfect fit is really difficult to find. So if you have a way, you could just browse it out there, I think that's, I think that's very smart. Wait, and so tell me what that's called again.

The website that's called link medical spaces.com and it just launched a few weeks back. Oh, yes, it's perfect for. Yeah, yeah, thank you. It's. Yes, I did think of surgeons. I. And also like satellite locations of established practices there. People, if you're starting, starting out in a new part of town, you don't have a footprint yet, you want to be there just a day or two a week, then that's perfect. Apart from of course, startups or anybody who wants to work part time or stay small. It is, yeah, it's, it gives people options and that's, I think, what we need at this time. Because we've always been told that this is the only way to do it or these are the only few ways to do it. And I don't think that's working for many people anymore.

Back up a little bit and just tell me like your path to like getting, you know, deciding to go to medical school, deciding what specialty to choose and you know, how you enjoy, you know, kind of go through that path and how you enjoy nephrology.

Absolutely. So I grew up in India and went to med school. In India we go to med school straight after high school. So you're an, you're a 17, 18 year old trying to make that decision. I made myself a pro con list and that list wasn't very good in hindsight. Here I am. So I, I moved to this country after med school and did my, both my residency and fellowship in nephrology at the University of Miami in Jackson Memorial Hospital.

And.

Once I finished training. I proceeded to have my children and stayed home with them for a little bit. I felt like I deserved it at that point. So I spent some time with them and that was the time, you know, I had some time on my hands. And most of the people we know in real life are physicians because both of us are physicians. And also with all the communities on Facebook and stuff, I, I was so astounded with this resounding echo of burnout. It seemed like everybody or nearly everyone was facing it. So that's what got me thinking at that point. I was like, it seems like a death trap. I do this, it's gonna happen to me as well. And so that was the point where I decided if I'm gonna keep enjoying medicine, I think I need to cut back just a little bit to, you know, make sure it's an. It lets me also do the other things in life so I do not begin to resent it. So that is how I came to that conclusion. As for nephrology, I don't know. I would not be good in a procedural field. So that took away that cut out a bunch of options. I like the, the cerebral part of nephrology. I really enjoy the subject. Again, when we're young and in training or in med school, we're so idealistic. We're only thinking about whether we like a subject or not and stuff. We are not thinking so much about lifestyle and how life is going to look when we have a family and stuff. We can't even fathom these things unless someone like a mentor actually tells, tells us these things specifically. So yes, I did not know very much about the lifestyle of medicine for nephrology. Some out of the box thinking to, to figure out how I could make it work for me.

Yeah, yeah. Is nephrology, I guess it's. Well, it's generally fairly hospital based or outpatient based or. I, I guess I don't know that much about the lifestyle of a nephrol. I only remember, I mean, I refer some patients out to nephrolog nephrologists when I'm having some issue with their kidneys, but I mostly remember them from the hospital coming around and telling me to like either hydrate or not hydrate or that's about all I remember.

So, you know, I don't know which one. It is pretty hospital heavy because there's a lot of acute kidney injury in the hospital and patients who need nephrology, but there's a great deal of need in the outpatient setting. And some years back there weren't that many options to offer someone who had kidney disease. So the burden of chronic kidney disease is really, really high, especially because of high blood pressure and diabetes. And now with the obesity epidemic, that number is only going up. And there wasn't very much to offer chronic kidney disease patients. So these patients were often referred rather late when again, there isn't very much to do but to follow the numbers and then start them on dialysis and stuff. We are hoping to stem that tide gradually as more and more options come out with new therapies for diabetic kidney disease and such. So I am outpatient only. That's how I'm able to make it to be part time. And yeah, there is a lot of need with, with chronic kidney disease. And the earlier they're referred, the, the more time there is to make a difference because these therapies, these are all long term therapies. So whether it's SGLT2 inhibitors and GLP1 agonists or RAS blockers and stuff they take, the earlier they're instituted, the better. So. So yes, there's a lot we can do.

Well, that's good. I tend to refer my patients pretty early. Sometimes I think to myself, I don't know that there's going to be anything that is going to be helpful, but I just feel like, okay, at least I, I don't know, I sent them on and they got to hear from you guys to you, for you, for like to emphasize stuff like not to take NSAIDs or you know, any other nephrotoxic agents or I feel there's, if somebody else tells them that that will be helpful. And I also just think like, well, I just don't want to miss anything. I want to make sure that there's nothing else we should be doing in this workup or other medications we should add or just anything else because I, you know, if somebody ends up on dialysis and there was something I could have done to prevent it, but, but some of my patients have told me that they've gone to the nephrologist and they're, they look around and they say I'm about the healthiest person in here. Everybody else looks like they're really having it, having a tough time with a lot of really bad chronic illnesses. And so, but they said kind of the good thing about that is they walked out saying, wow, I'm pretty healthy.

Absolutely, yes. No, you're doing the right thing because you know, again, somebody else making them aware maybe puts that thing in at the back of their mind, okay, fine, I gotta work on my glycemic control. Okay, fine. I am going to check my blood pressure and make sure at goal. Because, I mean, the numbers are dismal, right? They say less than 50 of hypertension patients are actually controlled to goal. And sometimes they'll have. They'd have gone to, say, an author or someone who. Who put them on NSAIDs for a little bit. And it was never meant to be taken forever, but here they are months or years later, they're still on it. Like, yeah, they put me on. I will. Like, I know they probably didn't mean for you to take it forever.

So.

So little things like that here and there. Yeah, it helps.

Yeah. You can make those corrections. Yeah, well, they said, oh, yeah, but now my shoulder feels great. I'm like, I know, but you're stomping your kidneys. Okay, well, that's. Yeah. I mean, I think that that's. And what you said is so true, too, is when you're going through and you're making these decisions about what specialty, you just think what you like and what's interesting, and you don't always think about lifestyle, and you just also don't think of your specialty as a business. You know, is this. You can look at it and sometimes say, okay, well, this is really something that people need, but are you going to be able to have a viable business from it? And so I think that those things are. Are things that, you know, medical students really need to factor in as they're going through this whole process. And I just try to. One of the things that I had said on a previous podcast is that I felt like when you're shadowing these other doctors or doing these rotations, it should be 24 hours. So you just see this. So you actually see that doctor both in the hospital at their job, and then what happens when they go home and what are they doing? What's their actual life like? Because that's going to make the. The biggest. You know, you're. I mean, work is work, and it's important and we love it, and it's. But it's not everything. And you've got to have those other parts of your life, otherwise you're going to end up burned out, you're not going to be happy, and you're not going to be able to sustain it. And. And I know you have seen the same thing that I have in all these different Facebook groups of the people who are burned out or the people this kind of kills Me, I'll see these, this person post and say they just finished training and they're trying to figure out how they can get out of clinical medicine. And I'm like, oh my God, you just did all of this. And the first so sad is get out of it. But I, I agree with you that the answer is trying to be more creative in finding the, making that the practice work for you, for all of your different goals, for your lifestyle goals, your financial goals and, and you know, and being able to be the kind of doctor that you want to be and that gives you fulfillment and if you can and there are ways to do it, but you just do you have to think outside the box. You have to try different things until you can find something that really, really works for you. So I think, I think what you've done is really fantastic.

Thank you. Thank you. I think I want to say to young people that I was just talking to somebody who's third year now and she's in med school and she is trying to decide residency and she is like, she, she really wants to do, what is it, emergency medicine. But derm is also into consideration. So I was like, well those are as different as different can be. So she was like, you know, I like derm. It's not that I don't like it, but it doesn't give me the high that Em gives me. And I, it made me laugh because that's exactly how we used to think.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. My advice to her was like, you don't need a high for your work.

No, you guys, you're fine. You're right. It's like they say, your investments should be boring. That's not in. Your investments are not meant to be exciting. It's, yeah, maybe that way. But I also want, I told her that, you know, that there are more options coming up or maybe it's just getting more acceptable to design your own option that makes you work. So if there's a field that's hard, you can probably figure out some ways to make it work for you if you don't want to work in what is traditional for that specialty. Because I'd hate for somebody to, you know, to give up on a subject they really like now for those lifestyle considerations and such. So. But yes, that it is not going to be as easy to have a great lifestyle in a non lifestyle branch as it is in something like Durham, which we already know would, would help with the lifestyle. So. But if someone's willing to try and be creative, then they can, they can sure. Make it work.

Yeah, yeah. But I think that's. And I think if they do have some mentors in. In different fields that have done it, I think that that's really helpful.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think there's some fields that are. That have more options than others. You know, I mean, I think some things, like surgery, for example. Well, you know, we actually had a general surgeon on the podcast not too long ago, and she really has had. She has made a very good lifestyle as well. Part of the way she has done that was paring down her practice so that she doesn't do the giant cases, number one, that come in in the middle of the night or that she. Or that they have to stay long periods of time in the hospital. So she really just does day surgery. So she's focused her practice on things like thyroid and parathyroid and, you know, kind of smaller and lumps and bumps and that type of stuff. And, you know, probably if you had asked her in residency, oh, is this the type of practice you want to do? She probably would have said, oh, that's not super exciting. But she now found, oh, it's exciting enough, it's interesting enough, and it does allow me the lifestyle that I want. So I think there's just a balance with. With all of those things. But certainly when people tell me that, oh, well, I just love this. But if the lifestyle is that bad, I just think you're just not Gonna love it 10 years in if you are. You know, if you can't be there for things that you want to do with your family or if you're just exhausted all the time. I. I don't know. I think you would. You would have to really, really love something for it to be worth all of that.

I don't know. Right, right. And, you know, we also get to do it only once life. So, I mean, you can't be like, all right, let me enjoy my work for 40 years, and then I'll deal with the rest of it. No, it all happens at the same time. Your kids are little at the same time, they are home with you at the same time as you're trying to build up your career and stuff.

Yeah.

So, yeah, it ain't easy. I know. And something's got to give. Training for a job is longer than the length of the career in the job, then there's something really wrong with the system, and we need to fix it, because that. Yeah, you were mentioning how that's so common on social media, and I've sometimes been to conferences, finance Conferences and such or physician finance conferences with everybody is talking about how they can get out of clinical medicine. That part makes me really sad. I mean, it's great. Let's be great at finance. Let's have great other streams of income and stuff. But capacity, we can, if we can, let's. Is very vital, very valuable and has taken a lot of blood, sweat and tears. It has taken our youth. So yeah, if we can make it work, then that's, that's better.

Yeah. And I think, and kind of just what I was saying, I think what is so challenging for us is that by the time, like right around the time that we're finishing our training, you know, if you want to have a family, you've got to get going on it. And I know some people even start their family before they're done with their training. But it's, it is, it's, it's. Mother nature is kind of cruel on the whole thing because you really have to, you have to get going on that. If it's something that you want to do and then you do, you have just all of that coming at once. You're trying to have, you know, going through pregnancy and having an infant and trying to work and you've just started your job and really it's, it's a challenge for sure. But I hate when, Well, I shouldn't say that. I know sometimes people, people do all kinds of different things that work for them. But I think it's when I see women who say, well, I'm going to stay home with my children for a year, that turns into two, that turns into three, that turns into four. And if they, if they stay out of medicine too long, it makes it nearly impossible to go back. They, they lose their confidence and they probably generally, I mean, they do lose their skills. Things change. And so I really, I try to find ways. I say if you can just keep your foot in and keep doing something, you, you will be glad later on. Even though it's hard, you know, it's, it's hard when your nanny is home with your kid and they take their first steps or any of those things that you don't want to miss. But I, you know, I, I, at least for me, it's been, it's been worth it to, to stay in there because now I'm an empty nester and I don't, I'm not sure what I would be doing with myself if I had gotten out of clinical medicine.

Right, right. Very true, very true. Well, I was one of those that stayed at home a little bit. I did keep up with my, you know, CME and licensing and stuff, but the options were not very much there. Who's gonna like this was what, nearly 15 years back. Now, I don't think it was very acceptable to ask for a job half a day, a week or one day or so. Now I don't think anybody will raise an eyebrow. I mean, yes, you may not get paid very much, but at least it'll fulfill the, the purpose for which you're doing it. But not back then. So. So options are good. Yeah, yeah. The more people we can include and not have leave the workforce, the better.

Yeah, yeah. Well, and now, you know, women represent 60% of incoming medical students. And so, I mean, I think that unless we, we're going to be in for a big doctor shortage, unless we find ways for women to stay in the workforce and, you know, have. And be a little bit more flexible, especially during those, during those years when you're having small children. Because, you know, if you, if you don't have some flexibility, then people just say, okay, well, never mind, then I'm just going to quit all together. And I think that that's such a, that's such a tragedy. So I don't know, maybe it'll be good. Maybe it'll kind of force people to continue to think outside the box and, and offer more flexibility, at least for this period of time.

Right, right. And then. Yeah, then the world is your oyster. You take it wherever you want to. But yes. At least lets you start without. Without taking out another loan or, you know, losing sleep over it and. Yeah. Lets you do your thing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, okay, this has been so fantastic. Any. So if my daughter Stephanie were here with us, but instead she's gallivanting around Portugal right now, but what she always asks people is what. What advice do you have for somebody who's just about to start medical school, who's just about to start the whole process? If you could kind of go back to your self back then, what, what would you. What would you tell you?

I'd like to tell our younger colleagues that change is coming or change is here and that's. It may look scary because the status quo is not going to be around, but it's probably a good thing because the. Some, some are. A lot of the things that are. The way it's done now may not be the best. And change does not happen in times of comfort. It's always uncomfortable. So I think some good things are coming and innovation and tech are going to be the, the solution and also that we are going to be the solution. If we are waiting for other people to solve the problems in medicine, that's not happening. We the vanguard of change. And I think change is going to come initially in small, small bits and pieces. Individual solutions people figure out for themselves that then coalesce into bigger change. The big systemic changes that we're all looking for come about, but this is how it's going to start until it reaches a critical mass and everyone's like all the, you know, the, the big, the adults at the table start paying attention. So yeah, so yes, they are starting off at, in uncertain times, but I'm very glad that they've picked medicine. And we need bright young minds, dedicated people to carry on our profession and wish them all the very best with everything they got.

This. I think that's great. I, I totally agree. I think change has to come from us. And when I hear physicians who just kind of want to grumble and complain about things, I, you know, I kind of say, well, you know, maybe because physicians haven't taken the lead on a lot of stuff, that's sort of how we've gotten in part of this mess. So we need to, yeah, we need to, we need to be the leaders of that change to, to get, have it go in the direction that we want. Okay, well this was so great to talk to you and get to meet you and wait and I plug your. Likewise your website one more time.

Yes. So the website is linkmedical spaces.com where you can list medical office space even if it's only part of their suite and even if it's available only part time. And if you have any questions, please reach out at hello@linkmedicalspace.com.

Oh, great, great. Okay, we'll put, I will put that in the show notes too so people can, can look at that because I think that's really, that's really fantastic. Okay, well, thank you so much for taking the time to visit and hopefully we'll connect again sometime soon.

Thank you for having me. All the best to your daughter as she navigates her way through this and yeah, good luck with the podcast. Thank you.

Thanks.