Space Business Podcast #111 - Loren Grush: The Six - The Untold Story of America’s First Women Astronauts

Five, four, three, two, one, zero.

All engine running. Liftoff. We have a liftoff. Hi everyone. My guest this week is Lauren Grosch. You may know her already as a space journalist currently at Bloomberg, but she also just published a book. The Six is telling the story of America's first women astronauts. And that is what we're talking about in this episode. Enjoy. My name is Raphael Rotkin and I'm an investor and advisor to space companies. Just as a reminder, this podcast is for informational purposes only and nothing should be taken as investment advice. This podcast is sponsored by Nanoavionics, a satellite manufacturer and mission integrator. Their technologies enable many space companies worldwide to offer services that improve life right here on Earth, such as providing global connectivity, conducting Earth observation, or contributing to scientific discoveries. Check them out. And also check out my episode with the CEO and co founder. Sadly, I am not a rocket scientist, but I am an alumnus of the International Space University. ISU offers a number of educational programs about space worldwide. Check them out@isunet.edu. and just some final things before we start the episode about ourselves. If you enjoy the podcast, please leave us a five star rating on your favorite podcast platforms such as Apple or Spotify. If you want us help expand our work, you can do so and Support us at www.patreon.com Spacecraft Space Business Podcast and we'll also put that link in the episode notes. And lastly, you can follow us on Twitter odcastspace. Hey space enthusiast, we're back with another episode and it's a little bit different than many of our usual episodes. It's actually about a book and I'm very happy to have Lauren Grosch here with us today. Welcome Lauren.

Thank you so much for having me.

And Lauren, I suspect actually quite a few of our listeners already know you as a space reporter, but do you mind just giving us sort of a couple of minutes of your background and bio?

Yeah, absolutely. So I've been reporting on space now for, I want to say, nearly 10 years, which kind of blows my mind. I maybe most people would know me from my time at the Verge. I spent seven years reporting on space for them. And then just recently I moved to Bloomberg and I've actually been at Bloomberg for a year now and I'm Bloomberg's space reporter full time. And then just, you know, in terms of way back, my resume, you know, I grew up with space kind of in my blood. Both my parents worked for NASA on the space shuttle program. And so I grew up outside of Houston near NASA's Johnson Space center and kind of was surrounded by, by space for most of my childhood.

Wow. So I got to ask, I think SpaceX, I'm pretty sure has like a daycare center for their kids. Did you have like a NASA daycare you went to?

I absolutely did. There was.

Oh my go. But I'm so jealous now.

Please. I know for certain I went to a NASA summer camp and I remember that being very nerdy because it was all NASA kids and we would do, you know, to, to fill the time, we do like science fair projects and you know, scientific experiments and crafts and stuff like that. And then in terms of schools and daycare, you know, everything that was nearby the space center was all space themed. So I went to really small Episcopalian school, jsc and I, if I remember, I vividly remember and I could be wrong. So maybe if anyone is listening to this, who happens to have gone to this one specific school, it was called St. Thomas. I remember the, the recess area had a playground and I remember it having sections of the Saturn V rocket that you could like crawl into. You know how it's sectioned off in pieces at jsc? It was kind of that same, that same vibe. But like in a playground and you could like crawl through the rocket. I, I, you know, this is like a childhood memory. I, I, maybe it' completely wrong, but I do remember some kind of space themed recess area.

Yeah, it definitely sounds way cooler than your usual daycare center. So again, I'm very envious. And like, without digressing too much, I just to say I also find it fascinating. I know like a few of these stories where like, you know, there's kids and their parents were both in space and it seems like the majority of cases the kids then also were fascinated by space. Right. Which is not automatic. Right. You like, you have a lot of these stories like, you know, I don't know, both parents are doctors and they're like, oh, I'm not going to be a doctor or lawyer or something like that, but obviously you still love space.

I was going to say that was kind of me, I've been saying it a lot. You know, when I was a kid, space wasn't really that fascinating because it was all around us. You know, our community was very much defined by the nearby jsc. And so I, I wasn't the only one to have NASA parents. There were many children who either had a parent who worked for NASA or both their parents worked for NASA. So it was, it was just very ubiquitous where I grew up. So it wasn't special and just because of the circumstances we were in. And then also, you know, as a kid, I. You know, as a teenager, I really didn't like what my parents did. You know, I kind of wanted to differentiate myself from them. So there was a big time in my life where I kind of wanted to leave space entirely and just kind of, you know, chart my own path. And I really like telling stories and being creative, and so that's ultimately what led me to journalism. But then, you know, things kind of came full circle after I left Houston. And, you know, I started telling people about my childhood and, you know, what, what it was like and seeing the fascination on their faces is really kind of what brought this new perspective for me. It was kind of a light bulb moment where I thought, oh, this was interesting. This was, you know, unique and something I should really be appreciative of. And so once that full circle moment happened, you know, when I started on my journalism career, I started picking stories and I sound. I found myself gravitating towards stories of science and innovation. And then I started wondering, you know, could. Could I find a job that would let me write about space full time? And then I did, and it's been a dream ever since. So, yeah, there was a time where I probably, I probably would have run away from space as far away as possible if I could, but ultimately I ran back to it and I'm pretty happy I did.

And so slowly segueing into the topic of your book, which we'll talk about in a. In a minute. So as you kind of made your way back to what space and like, you know, trying to find, for example, an outlet where you could write on like a really deep tech, hard tech topic like space. Did you get encouragement and support or was that also a struggle?

Oh, no, I definitely got encouragement and support. You mean from, from my parents or.

Anybody sort of like your family, your friends, but also like potential employers, colleagues, where you're working, things like that?

Well, absolutely. I mean, it did take a while to find that niche. You know, I. I was at Popular Science for a bit, and they noticed that I really liked writing stories about space, so they kind of gave me more of that to write about. And then at the Verge, the Verge was specifically looking for a space reporter. And I remember at the time they had put out this job advertisement for their space reporter position. And as I was reading it, I was, I thought to myself, oh, they want me to come work for them. Just the way it was written and the way it was Described it was like, you know, somebody who really loves to write about space, but also other scient specific topics and also likes being on video. And, you know, it was just kind of all of these things that I really love to do because I actually do have background in video. I actually started in broadcast journalism, but gravitated toward writing. So it was just kind of one of those, you know, fateful moments where I thought, oh, this is the perfect job for me. And it really turned out to be a great fit.

Okay, so coming to book. So you wrote a book?

I did.

I think it's been out for, like. I think it's been officially out for like a week or so.

Yeah, yeah.

Can you just give us the quick synopsis?

Absolutely. So it's called the Six, and it details the lives and the first flights of America's first women astronauts. So there were six of them. It was Sally Ride, Judy Resnick, Kathy Sullivan, Anna Fisher, Ray Seddon, and Shannon Lucid. And they were all selected to join the astronaut Corps in 1978. And obviously they would go on to be the first American women to fly to space. And so the book chronicles how they got to that point in their lives and also their first space flights, which they favorite things to write about because each of their flights was just so fascinating and unique and. And then ultimately culminates with the Challenger accident, which Judy Resnick, as most know, was on that flight. And then, you know, describes how that changed the program and. And what came afterward.

Okay. And so, like, like you said, you've been writing about space for. For 10 years, by the way, which is like such a long time. We hardly had any changes over the last 10 years in space. Right?

Yeah, it's been a very dynamic time to cover the industry, that's for sure.

You. You picked a good time to join y. What I'm getting is sort of given your knowledge, right? I mean, you could have written about many different topics in space, and there are many interesting topics to write about in space, I would hazard to say. Why did you pick this one?

Yeah. So as over that time, since I've been writing about space for so long, one of the things that has become really important to me is centering women's stories in space. So, you know, when I first started writing about the space industry, I really did feel a bit outnumbered. There are still quite a bit of men writing about the industry, and that's great. And they're fine, and I love all of them and become quite close with them. But, you know, as a woman, I found myself gravitating toward other women who cover the industry. And I found a really great group of women. You know, it's gotten. There's been quite a swelling of women who have, are writing about space and, you know, becoming close with them and, you know, having that peer group has been really fulfilling for me. And one of the things it has made me think about is, you know, who are the women that came first. So I've thought about, you know, who are the first women to write about this industry. And then, you know, that also led me to think, you know, who are the first women to be in this industry and who are the pioneers in that field. And so that ultimately led me to this, this group, which, I'll be honest, I really hadn't known much about them even having been in the space field for so long. Obviously I knew about Sally Ride, but I really didn't know much about the other women who came on board with her at the same time. And so I also thought, well, that's an area ripe for discussion. And also if I didn't know about these people, then I imagine most of America probably doesn't know or the even too. And so I thought, you know, what a great opportunity to educate myself and then also share those stories with a wider population than before.

And it kind of like nicely follows maybe almost like a trend like we had like other, you know, works like hidden figures, right. Just exposing more the role of, of women in the space actor. And I frankly hope we're going to have a lot more. But so maybe kind of delving into the content of the book a little bit and just, just give as many spoilers if you want or not. Kind of you want to whet the appetite of the people but not give everything away. So what were some. You mentioned the space flight were some of your like, favorite parts. But I also know that I've read that these women faced a lot of challenges, right? Including frankly, probably mostly unnecessary challenges. What were some of these challenges that most resonated with you?

Yeah, absolutely. Well, a lot of them they faced even before they came into the program. So Shannon Lucid, for instance, is someone, I point out she was slightly older than the rest of the women. And so just that small little generational gap that she had, she really experienced quite a bit of sexism and pushback just when she wanted to get a job. So when she graduated with her chemistry degree, you know, she went to one of her advisors and she just asked, you know, how do I get a job in chemistry? And he basically, he flat out told her, oh, no one's going to hire you because you're a woman. And then she told me it turned out he was absolutely right because nobody, she faced so much pushback whenever she was just trying to get a job or, you know, when she did eventually get hired, you know, she found out one of her male colleagues was making it, you know, exponentially more than her with the same credentials. But you know, she, when she brought that up, she was told, oh well, he's a man, that we're not going to pay you the same amount as him. You know, just really blatant things like that that I think most women would be, you know, appalled to hear about today. And so, and it wasn't just Shannon, obviously. Many of the other women, you know, some, two of the women are medical doctors and they both were had, you know, had an uphill battle just to be taken seriously in their profession, as to profession too. So those were some of the challenges they had. Then of course, when they came onto the program, you know, NASA keen at the time to, to bring on women and people of color. So they really tried to make room for them and be very warm, warm and welcoming when they were here and also, you know, provide all of the necessary arrangements that they needed when they came onto the program. Of course there were, you know, there were hiccups along the way. Not everybody at NASA at the time was on board with women coming into the program. They didn't quite say this directly to the women, but you know, they, they all harbored some of them, not all, but some of them harbored their skepticism that they, that the, the job wasn't really for women. But ultimately once the, once the six kind of got into their groove and showed just how hard and committed they were to these jobs, they really turned a lot of skeptics around. I would say the biggest challenge though was the media scrutiny that they were under. So obviously being the first six women, there was quite a lot of eyes on them and the press all wanted to talk to them. They didn't really want to talk to any of their male colleagues. And this questions they were asked were just complet, completely asinine to say the least. You know, Sally really took the brunt of it being the first woman, the first American woman to go to space. You know, her pre launch press conference was just quite terrible. You know, someone asked if she wept when the simulator broke. You know, at one point there was another anchor who asked her if she wished she had been born a boy. Another person asked her if she would have quit the program had she not been the first American woman to fly. You know, just crazy things like that. And it wasn't just Sally, too. I mean, Anna Fisher, she was the first mom to go to space. And somebody asked her, you know, she got some criticism for being the first mom and leaving her child. And even though she had male colleagues who all had children too. Exactly. One of the. One of the reporters even asked her in space how being a mother, being an astronaut conforms to a mother's duty, you know, something of that nature. So just, just wild things like that. But they all took it in great stride. And, you know, even though they weren't. They weren't media professionals, they had to be, you know, they had to become public figures through this process. And they handled it extremely well, despite very aggressive media and a very sexist questions that they were asked the entire time.

Yeah. So I guess the optimist in me is saying, like, okay, at least we've made some progress since those press conferences.

I'd like to hope, you know, we have more women in the space field now. And also the men in the space reporting world are. Would never ask these questions to this day. So hopefully, yeah, we've come a long way.

And then in terms of. They were put through the same training basically as the men, right?

Oh, y. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the only major difference was they. They came on as mission specialists, and so they. They couldn't fly in the front seat of NASA's T38 jets because those were for pilots. But ultimately they got really great flight time in the backseat. And I spoke to some of their colleagues who admitted to me that they let them take off and land even though they weren't. They weren't supposed to. So, yeah, they. They really went through the same, same training, same protocol. And like I said, that showing how committed they were and at these jobs really convinced a lot of the negative people or the skeptics that they belonged there.

Yeah. And talking about the training, I mean, sometimes people forget, because this is yet, I think, another sort of almost forgotten story that they're kind of in the line with what we call the Mercury 13. Right. The woman who went through the same training as the Mercury seven. And some people even say they were performing better than the men.

Yeah. And I detail that group in the book as well, because they're just a very important part of this entire history. And so, yeah, the Mercury 13, which is a name, you know, it's not a great name for them, but it's kind of the name that they've gotten. But yeah, they're a group of women who in the 60s underwent the same tests as the Mercury 7, passed those tests. They wanted to keep training to see if they had what it took to get to space. And also just to be clear, they were pilots, these women were pilots. And that was kind of the big point of the time is, you know, NASA had said that you needed jet pilot training and obviously women could not have that experience because they were women were banned from flying jets for the military. And so it was this awful catch 22 situation for them. But these women were pilots and they wanted to keep training for space. But ultimately that training was cut short and they lobbied Congress to continue that work and to try and convince them why sending a woman to space was in the, in the country's interest. But you know, at the time it just wasn't a priority for NASA. We were locked in this space race with the Soviets. And I think ultimately the issue was that, you know, sending, sending a woman into space was seen as a distraction or not just not a priority because it was going to be something that held us back from winning the space race with the Soviet Union. And so ultimately the women just weren't taken seriously. And then Soviet Union did end up sending the first woman in space, Valentina Tereshkova. And when she flew, NASA just kind of brushed it off and the world just kind of brushed it off as its publicity stunt. And I just kind of, I think that was really illustrative of where we were at that time. It, it just wasn't something to be taken seriously. What people did consider just kind of like this novelty.

Yeah, I must say, unfortunately some of these, let's call them like chauvinistic or whatever stories are, they're actually not surprising, I guess. Was there, I guess as a counterpoint, was there something that came up in your research and then ultimately writing the book and learning about the women, which was surprising for you, which you would not have expected.

Yeah, I think the big thing that I usually say is I had this idea of who the six were going to be as a group. You know, I think I came in thinking, oh, they were going to be this really tight knit best of friends group. And ultimately I should not have been a surprise that that wasn't the case. I mean, obviously they all loved each other and were had that shared camaraderie as being the first six women. But just as we all are today in our co working environments, you know, not all women are Best friends, and some are closer than others. You know, obviously within the group, Ray and Anna were closer because they shared similar traits. You know, they were both doctors, both married to other astronauts, both had children of the age. Sally and Judy also gravitated toward each other. You know, but that's just how it is. And it was interesting to explore those dynamics and, and finding out, you know, who was closer to whom was, you know, that was a little. That was an interesting surprise for me.

Yeah, I must say, you know, why, why would we sort of ask women to be less competitive than. Than men would be? I mean, those were, those, those six were chosen out of an extremely large group. Right. So, of course they were competitive people. And, you know, I think everybody knows, and it was even completely normal. John Glenn and Ellen Shepard were really competitive for each other. So why, you know, why would we ask, you know, why would we expect anything else from the women? In my point of view?

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, that that was the case of all of them when they came on, the 35 new guys that the astronaut group, they were a part of. You know, it's an extremely competitive group. Just look at all their credentials. They've all been working very hard their entire lives and that. And one of the ways they've gotten to be successful is by being competitive. And so once they join the astronaut program, that obviously does not go away. They're an extremely competitive. And also at this, you know, at the same time, they're astronauts. And the way it's described to me is an astronaut's sole aim is to go to space. And so waiting is kind of an excruciating, excruciating process for them. Now that's something that they, they knew they would have to do. You know, that's maybe that's another surprising thing, which shouldn't surprise me at all. But, you know, going to space is such a small part of being an astronaut. Most of their time is spent on the ground training, supporting other crews, learning new technologies, helping to create new tool. So they really do have to be patient. But, you know, watching your coworkers fly before you is an agonizing experience when all you want to do is go to space. And so, yeah, it was. So maybe there was definitely certain competition to be the first woman for sure. But also it was just a competition to get into space as soon as possible. And so, you know, that, that was also an interesting dynamic to explore. And I also found it really relatable because I feel like if I was in that environment, I would Absolutely. Want to go first. You know, I. So it is. It was. I liked that people were open about that and open about the desire to go first and to want to fly as quickly as possible, because I think that's something that we can all relate to as people.

Okay, open one minute bracket. Would you like to be the first journalist to go to space? I don't think there has been a journalist.

I think that. I think that title is technically taken, unfortunately.

Okay.

You know, well, Michael Strahan was the one that flew recently, though. I know people were debating if he's an actual journalist. And then I believe there was a journalist, not an American, who flew. I just can't remember. This is. I. I should know my. My journalism history better. But. No, I would absolutely. You know, I talk about this all the time because it's probably one of the questions I get asked the most is if I would go to space if I was asked. And I always say, you know, my joke is that I'm skeptical of if somebody, one of these companies asked me, you know, do they want me to come back? You know, because I. I do report somewhat critically on them from time to time. But, you know, if someone offered ride, I feel like I couldn't possibly say no. That's the opportunity of a lifetime. So, yes, I think the answer is yes.

Fair enough. And on expectations, to be honest, coming back to the book, so, I mean, since you studied the six so much, do you have a favorite one? Or is that like asking, who's your favorite kid?

Yeah, no, I can't answer that question. I've also been asked that question. And, no, the thing is, each of them, each one of them is so unique and their stories are all so interesting and distinct from one another. It's. It's like comparing apples and oranges. You know, they're. They're just not the same people. So I couldn't possibly pick a favorite. I do, like, every. Every one of their space flights was just so fun to write about because something different or interesting or new happened on each of them. You know, for Judy's flight, you know, she suffered that pad abort, the first flight, I should clarify, they had that pad abort. And that was such a great moment to write about because the people who were on board that, that flight, during that abort vividly remember every detail of what happened in those few minutes because it was just one of those very scary moments. And it kind of like a flashbulb went off and it just, you know, solidified it in their mind. So As a writer, it was, it was really great to write about. But then also you had, you know, Kathy's spacewalk and Anna is rescuing those satellites and Ray, you know, having to completely re. Turn up her flight around and do the unperformed or the unplanned spacewalk and try and save a satellite herself. So, you know, each. There was just something new and exciting to write about of their flights and that, that's what ultimately made it such a great book to write about.

And so speaking about sort of like their, you know, post space flight, you know, time and obviously, sadly, Judy Resnick never got to enjoy post space flight time as she perished in the Challenger accident. But, but for the others, what do you see? Sort of like what did you do afterwards? Like where they, for example, role models. Do you think they left a legacy or what kind of legacy did they leave?

Oh yeah, absolutely. And I spoke with Eileen Collins for this as well. Who's the first woman to pilot this, the space shuttle. And yes, ultimate. Just that they made, they made things easier for the women who came after, right? So they, unfortunately they had to deal with all of the firsts, right? The first of having a child while an astronaut in the program, you know, the first to deal with the media. They had to kind of work all those kinks out. So they might have had it struggled with that a little bit. But then ultimately when more and more women came into the program, they had people that they could turn to and ask for help, right? So for instance, if other women wanted to get pregnant, they could talk to Ray or Anna and ask them what their experience was, was like. And ultimately they could pass those, that, you know, those lessons or whatever they've learned down along the road. And so that way, you know, they felt a little, the women who came ever came after felt a little less alone because they had, you know, generations of women to, to pull their experiences from. And so I think that's ultimately what pioneers do, right? They kind of go through the adversity at first, but then ultimately they make it easier for the rest of the women who came after them.

And so we've come a long way, right? We now regularly have women going space. We, you know, you're mentioning spacewalks. We even had an all female spacewalk. The first one, I think was in 2019. If all goes well, Artemis 3 will put the first woman on the lunar surface. Do you think we've succeeded into making into normalizing women flying to space? Because that's what it should be. It should just be normal Right. We shouldn't have to discuss it in any way.

I think it's definitely normalized for sure. The issue though is would we declare success? Right. Less than 16 of the people who've gone to space have been women. You know, of the crews that I see go up are still predominantly male with maybe one woman on board. You know, I've yet to see an all female crew on a Space SpaceX Crew Dragon. You know, and why not? Why can't we have an all woman crew fly to space? You know, hopefully we'll get to that point soon, but it just hasn't. We haven't seen it happen. And so I'm. I'm not jumping up and down for joy just yet. But I mean we've definitely come a long way. And it is interesting that NASA is making the Artem program. You know, they have that stated goal of putting a woman and the first person of color on the lunar surface. I don't think NASA has ever really done that before for a spaceflight, a human spaceflight program where they've said that that is who we are going to send. I think maybe for some people they, that's controversial, but I think that's really interesting. And if you look back at the 1978 selection, you know, the, that their stated goal when they brought people into that astronaut corps was to find women and people of col. I mean Nichelle Nichols from Lt. Uhura from Star Trek said that in her PSA video. She want, they, they wanted women and they wanted minorities to come into the program. That was what they, they said up top. And so because they made that a priority, it dictated where they advertised, it dictated who they advertised to and then it ultimately made them successful. So the fact that NASA is saying that it's going to do these things, I mean it's basically holding them accountable to fulfilling it. Right. Because if they don't, then imagine the backlash they' going to get. So, you know, maybe, maybe it's controversial for some, but ultimately just, I think it's just a way to make sure it, it's a successful mission and that they will actually put the, the first woman and the first person of color on the moon.

Do you. I, I should have just looked this up. But do you happen to know what percentage of the active astronaut core at NASA is actually female?

You know, I do not know, but that is a good data point. I should have looked this up. Well, the problem, the problem I have is that the astronaut core is constantly changing. Changing. Right. Because people retire or you know, they leave. And so I. It's. It's just like. I feel like it's a fluid. A fluid number.

It's got to be somewhere like. I don't know, I'm just guessing. 20. 50. 20 to 50%. Right. Because for legacy historical reasons, it's not going to be 50, 50 yet.

I think there's still more men than women. But it would be great if we could reach 50, 50, because that is how, you know, our population breaks down, is set up.

Yes.

Yeah. I think, in fact, aren't there more women in the world than men?

So.

So hopefully we can, you know, make. Make it actually a mirror to society.

You know what just also occurred to me? Completely randomly thinking, worst thinking about how many female astronauts there at NASA. Unless I really have my history wrong, I don't think we ever had a female NASA administrator. Right.

No, we haven't. We've had a few women deputy administrators.

Associate. Yeah. Great.

Associated. Yeah. But no, no female NASA administrator. We're still waiting for that day. I think there was, there was speculation that before Bill came on that maybe there would be a woman appoint. Ultimately that that wasn't the case. So still waiting and maybe, maybe in the next administration. We'll see.

Yeah. So There you go, Mr. President and Presidential candidates. Minor to do it. Well, not minor. So to write. To do it for you.

Yeah.

And so speaking about other female astronauts in general. So I mean, we have the official government astronauts. Right. But obviously now we have like the. The private. Whatever you want to call it. I mean, I don't like to call it tourism if it's definitely not. If it's orbital. Right. Because.

Spaceflight.

Whatever you want to call it.

Yeah, exactly.

But so we obviously have, you know, I mean, and. And not only now. Right. I mean, this started, I guess now almost 20 years ago. I forgot now when Anusha Ansari flew. Right, right. First female space tourist. First Muslim woman in space. And then more recently we had CM Proctor. Right. Haley Asano. And that's just on the orbit then open suborbital. Of course, we had one of the Mercury 13 ray. We had Sharon Hagell. Uh, we had, forgetting her name, Katya from Mexico and Sarah Sabri from Egypt.

Yeah. There have been quite a few about.

Their roles as sort of private female space explorers.

I think the great thing about this era of spaceflight is that there are so many more opportunities now for people to go to space. You know, during the space shuttle program, it was just the space shuttle essentially, at least for Americans and for their partner countries. But, you know, nowadays we have the crew Dragon, we have New Shepard, we have VSS Unity, you know, have all of these other ways to get to space than ever before. And hopefully soon we'll have Boeing join the mix with CST100 starliners. So what's great about the commercial space revolution is that it just provides more access to space than ever before. Obviously, the biggest gatekeeper now is money. So that still is a pretty significant barrier for people to get to space. But as we've seen, you know, there have been ways to work around it. You know, Inspiration4 is a great example because we had Jared Isaacman buy an entire crew Dragon and then provided great opportunities for people to come on board. You know, they, he brought on Haley, who's a childhood cancer survivor, and then Cyan Proctor, you know, won through her that, that contest. And, you know, that provided an opportunity for someone to go to space who may not have ever had the opportunity otherwise. And so I think that that shows the potential of what the, the private sector can do. Now, obviously, there are always downsides to, to new, exciting things. It's important to remember that these are companies and they're just like any other company. They're prone. You know, I wouldn't say prone, but you know, we're, they're made up of humans. And so we need to, to still be cognizant of the fact that, you know, there's these burnout culture at these companies. They, they also still struggle with sexual harassment and biases. And, you know, there's still a long way to go to make, you know, inclusion and a priority within them as well. But so, so we still need to be vigilant about that kind of stuff. But at the same time, hopefully we're working towards that better future for everyone. And you know, there, like I said, if we can get the behind the scenes right, then it'll be even more impactful when we're flying more, you know, a diverse range of people than ever before.

Yeah, let's get back to sort of the more general sort of role of women in the space sector in a minute because I think that's a clearly very, very important topic still. Yeah, just for completeness, you were mentioning sort of some of the women being sponsored. And so, yeah, Katya and Sarah, of course, were also sponsored by Space for Humanity to go on to New Shepherd. So I think that was also a great thing that Space for Humanity did. Now you mentioned before sort of like few ways to get to space in the US but of course there were also the international astronauts. Did you take sort of a cursory look as part of your research too? I mean, I think you already mentioned Valentina Tereshkova, obviously first woman ever in space from the Soviet Union. But you have other prominent examples, right? Kaplana Shaula, right, from India, who's I think still an icon to this day in India. Of course, unfortunately, she perished as well on Columbia. So Yi. Right. The first South Korean astronaut chose 36,000 people. In Europe. We have a few like Samantha Christopher.

Did you take Love Samantha? She's fantastic. Yeah, no, I did. So the, the, the thing about this book is that it really was like six biographies kind of put into. So really I could have written six books if I, if I had wanted to. So the issue was I just didn't have room for everyone. And I think that just the point, the, the point is there needs to be more books about all of those pioneers that you just listed. You know, every one of them has a great and interesting story about how they came to space. And you know, these were just the first, the first six. And really they opened the door for an amazing cohort of women astronauts to come after them. So while I did not have the pages to devote to those women you discussed, there should be pages out there for them. And hopefully, I don't know, maybe if my editor wants, wants more content, we can make that happen.

Okay, so let me actually ask you the question I was going to ask you as the last question because.

Oh, sure.

So I was going to ask you, like, did you get the taste for like book length writing? Are we going to see more Lauren Grush books?

I definitely did. I, I learned a lot from this process. You know, I've been writing for a really long time, but it is just night and day from writing an article and doing break news. You know, when you're covering the news and current events, it's very much. I mean, the cycle is the story. Go, you get the story. You maybe have a few days or weeks to work on it if it's a longer piece, but then once it's done, it's done and you never think about it again. I mean, it's not that you never think about it again, but it really is. Okay. On to the next thing, you know, it's very, it's unrelenting. And so that, that has its pros and cons, obviously, because it can be a bit of a churn. But also, you know, if something was taking up some of your time, once it' past you, you know, it's done. This is obvious. You know, writing a book you're. This was a three year process from start to finish, you know, selling the book and then researching it, writing it and then, you know, going through the editing process and then, you know, now the book is out. But I've honestly been done with this book for about a year now. I want to say, I mean, not done done, but you know, really not haven't made any substantial changes to it for a while. And so it's, it's a. Almost like I think what people describe making a movie is like, you know, they go and they perform and they do what they need and then, you know, the editors take it away and do their magic and then you have to come back and all of a sudden be immersed in that world again. So there's an interesting disconnect. But what's great about it is you have, it's kind of like what I was talking about earlier about have coming full circle. You know, you distance yourself from it for a bit and then you come back and you realize how great the material was and how much you did enjoy working on it. And so I really have enjoyed this whole process and I would love to sink my teeth in another story again, I have to admit I don't have a formed idea, but I think I'm going to take the rest of the year to relax and then maybe next year I'll come up with something new.

Take some time off. You deserve it. And then. Yeah, we're looking forward to your next book. Okay, so let's come to the last question. Let's now get to that sort of general point about gender imbalance in the space sector at large. So not just among astronauts, which is clearly still a reality. I mean, I keep on seeing it. I'm teaching here at one of the Swiss universities on space entrepreneurship. I'm starting my first class of the fall semester is next Thursday. I went through the participant list and it's like 20% female. Right. And that's actually even better than I expected, to be honest. Right. I was just a speaker at something that's called the European Rover Challenge, where teams from around the world like, you know, build rovers and compete. And a typical rover team was like, you know, 20 people and then maybe like two women. Right.

Yeah.

And then space startups, you know, my day job, I'm a venture capitalist. We may have something between 10 max, 20% percent of the senior, senior, like founder, like C level positions are female. Yeah. What, what, what can we do? Like, how can we Improve this, I think.

Well, one of it goes back to what I was talking about earlier is I think women feel safe and comfortable when they see other women in these roles with them and have people that they can relate to. And so, you know, finding groups that you feel like you can fit into and find other people like you that have similar experiences to you, I think goes a long way. So I really love these initiatives. You know, I. The Brooke Owens Fellowship and there's a bunch of other fellowships through that same umbrella where they, you know, it's a group of women and they all form bonds together because they all are within the same class and then they go out and find. Have mentors within the space industry, and then that helps their placement in, you know, once they graduate and go to college. So I love initiatives like that because it really forms team building and creates groups of women so that you see other women like you and you don't feel so alone and so different. And so hopefully, maybe if we can create more initiatives like that that encourage women to come into the program because, you know, I think it's easy for men to come into space because they see other men like them and, you know, it's. It's not weird for them. You know, they. They feel comfortable and at home because it's a lot of people like them. So hopefully if we can make these places more comfortable for women, that will be, you know, a way to encourage them to come on board. And also, you know, it starts in schools, too. I mean, one of Sally Ride passions, you know, before she died, was her nonprofit, Sally Ride Science. And it really was about encouraging young women to join STEM fields. And so, you know, just, just, you know, other women, inviting women into these areas, I think really goes a long way. And then at the same time, what I mentioned before, you know, being cognizant of how your company is treating women and. Or how your university is treating women and making sure that, you know, when things like sexual harass or, you know, similar issues crop up, that you are actually handling them and taking them seriously. I still think we have a long way to go on that environment. And so hopefully it becomes a priority and something that. So that way that women, when I say they feel safe, they actually feel. They don't just feel comfortable, they feel safe and that they can be themselves and go to work and actually work and live fulfilling lives.

Okay, two final questions. When I forgot to ask you earlier, at your own workplace, let's say you go to like a network NASA conference, like a press conference, what what's like roughly the female ratio there? Oh.

Oh, gosh, you know, great question. Well, like I said, I think it's a lot higher now than when I first started. So even in the last decade, it's really gotten better. But still, you know, I would say probably what you were saying earlier, maybe 20, 30%, you know, it's definitely not half and half. How about that? And I'd like to see that day. And that would be really amazing for me if we, if we got there. So. But yes, it is. It's still. But like I said, I mean, the, the men that I've met in this field are really fantastic and they're also very encouraging of women joining the field too. And that's another thing I think that's really important is men being open and wanting more women in the field. That is a valuable resource as well.

Totally agreed. And sort of any final, sort of like one or two sentences you want to leave for girls or women who are considering joining the space sector?

Well, one thing I will say is that, you know, it's. It's valuable to me personally when people join this field in this industry because I don't feel so alone and I feel like I belong here whenever I see more women. So maybe it's a personal plea. And it's also something I think about when this job gets really hard because it's definitely an unforgiving job. You know, I. I feel compelled to stick with it as much as can because I know how much it means to others that I do. Now, I'm not saying that everybody should feel like they have to, but it is something that's on my mind whenever, you know, times get tough, is that, you know, we, we do this to make it easier for others to come later. So hopefully, you know, I'll just say that I'm here with everyone and hopefully we can create that stronger women workforce together. And I'm in it with you.

All good stuff. Hey, Lauren, thanks so much for writing this book on this fascinating topic and thanks for being there as a woman in the space actor and hopefully encouraging others to join.

Absolutely. Thanks so much. This is really great.

Well, that's it for another nominal episode of the Space Business podcast. If you like this podcast, please consider giving it a five star rating on your favorite podcast platform, such as itunes. You can follow us on Twitter podcastspace. Also consider supporting us at www.patreon.com spacebusinesspodcast. If the podcast got you interested in learning more about the business opportunities in the space economy, check out my new online course on space entrepreneurship on udemy.com the link is in the episode description. Lastly, if you have any any feedback including ideas for guests and that may include yourself. If you have an exciting space story to tell or interested in being a sponsor, drop us an email at spacebusinesspodcastmail. Com. I look forward to seeing you for the next episode.