Bits&Bytes with Sherry Li, Assistant Professor at Berklee, Co-Founder of ICTUS Audio

Foreign.

Hi everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Bits and Bytes. Today we have a very interesting guest with joining us today. Her name is Sherry. Sherry, how about I let you kind of kick off with an introduction. So who are you, what are you doing right now and why are you on this podcast with us today?

Well, thank you for having us. I'm on this podcast because Samson and I used to sing in choir together. And so my name is Sherry. I am currently assistant professor at Berkeley College of Music. I am also the co founder of Ictus Audio. We are a post production audio service. So we do scores and sound designs, music for advertisement, film, tv. VR is a big one and games. And we also are a contemporary music education academy. Cool.

And we're not going to gloss over the Samson being in choir part. We'll plug in a solo at the end.

That's great.

Was he.

He sang way better than me back then. Wow.

I was pretty good. I was pretty good. What happened? Why are you in t assessment of two? I think the videos are still on YouTube somewhere.

Oh, okay.

We're going to tag something in.

Yes, we'll put up an old gif here or something. But yeah, no, it sounds like there's a lot going on for you right now, so definitely want to explore a little bit deeper into that. Especially maybe for the audience that is listening in or watching in, you know, they might be confused. It's like what is like, you know, post production music score giving or you know, like what is that exactly? Maybe to a non technical or music experienced person. So but before we get into that, of course we do have the food aspect of each episode. So we brought Sherry something interesting today. So Vancouver actually has a very big Mexican food scene and I was luckily enough able to get my hands on tamales. So these tamales are actually from a store. They're called Sombreros Mexican products and Taquera. They have both a vast majority a vast variety of Mexican products and foods, but they also do sell tacos, tamales, as well as your typical Mexican drinks. So you can find like horchata there or lemonade or anything else that you might want to try. So today we actually brought in two different types of tamales. So one of them is the Rajas tamales flavor which is a mixture of poblano pepper, cream and cheese. And then we have the carne rojo tamales, which is beef and peppers inside. And as you all know, I like to kind of nerd out and kind of figure out where these foods came from. So just a Little bit of history here. So it is first thought that tamales. Tamales actually existed back around as early as 8000 BC originating in Mesoamerica. The exact origins are not concrete for sure, but tamales is actually very widely enjoyed across all of Latin America. So there are a lot of different variations of this, but the general concept is that it's made out of a corn dough and. And it's usually steamed with inside a corn husk or a banana leaf. So as you can see here, we do have a food camera that you can take a look inside. So as you can see, the dough is steamed inside and it's usually kind of mixed up with the ingredients. We did receive also some salsa and sauces to go with it to enjoy the food. So I'm just gonna quickly prepare this for everyone to give it a couple bites here and give that a try.

Yeah. So for audio listeners, this is a good chance to plug our YouTube. You can get to see the whole video version. You know, we're doing this live. We're not just talking about food. We're actually going to try it. Gene's cutting it up as we speak. Are you a big fan of Mexican food in general?

Yes, absolutely. But I've never had tamales and it's a very ambiguous looking food.

Yeah. Like the one. I think this is like a more authentic version than like. I don't know, I was joking before the show and saying like, I only eat it as candy. Like it's like cinnamon hearts type stuff. Right. But. But I know you've traveled quite a bit. Has there been like a favorite place for, for Mexican food that, that you can remember? I guess Mexico, if you've been there.

I mean. Yeah, I've been to Cancun.

Yeah.

And then. But honestly it was like resort.

Yeah.

Food.

Yeah.

Which I wouldn't say is very traditional Mexican.

Yeah.

There is this wonderful restaurant in Boston that I've been going to, but it's the same with these. You never remember the names. You remember how to get there.

Yeah. And I know for sports fans, the kind of Boston versus Vancouver does bring up some painful memories, but how do you compare the food scene? Because obviously we'll talk a little bit more about it. You definitely spent a bit of time in Boston as well as, of course, here in Vancouver.

Vancouver food is supreme. To me, there's no comparison to Vancouver food scene.

Well, we're not paying her to say that.

No, no, it's true though. It's so true. I think there's so much more variety so more fusion.

Yeah.

In Vancouver.

Yep.

And Boston is known for the lobster. It's known for the New England glam chowder. That's pretty good.

Y.

But.

But how many lobster rolls can you eat?

Exactly.

And that's. That's the question. Right. Like, I remember I visited Boston in June. I was kind of talking about it. It's good. It's great. It's just. I think I did three, and I think that was, like, one too many.

Right. I mean, you know, you're paying 50, $60 to eat a sandwich.

Wow.

With lobsters.

Although. But literally, lobsters, sometimes mayonnaise and bread.

You know, the. You know what the best kind of lobsters are?

Where?

The free ones. So I remember it was in 2018. 2018. And then we did our first VR music project using spatial audio, which is like a tech thing. Maybe we'll get into it later.

Spatial Audio is really cool.

And then Facebook noticed our work, and Facebook invited us to go to their New York quarters and Toronto quarters to speak about Spatial Audio. And they gave us a stipend for food of something like $150 per person per day.

Wow, That's. That's a lot of lobster rolls.

That's a lot of just straight up lobsters. Just like butter lobsters to the point that I was like, yeah, this is too much lobster.

I still dig in, guys. I still remember the first time I went to New York as a kid, and I had a relative there, and they took me out to some seafood restaurant. And I kid you not, you know, it was my first time kind of like out of the west coast in my life. I was like, 12, 13, and I got served crab, and then the waiter was like, oh, this crab is really fresh. It's from bc. This is what happened. Right. I'm like, what? And of course, there's probably like a 2x3x pricing on it because they had to import it from literally where I came from to New York to put it back in my mouth, sadly. How's that? How's your first few bites?

I'm still deciphering what I'm eating. Is this mostly corn?

Yeah.

So the.

The outside part is a corn kind of, like, ground up, and then I believe it. They kind of usually water. I'm not sure what else they usually add into this, but, yeah, it's wrapped in corn. Corn dough, they call it kind of like a corn.

Let me see here. I love the flavors.

It's very, like, almost texturally, it's kind of grainy. In a good way. And there's a bit of spice in the one that came with the beef. Like, I kind of like that part.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I would say, like, for. For, like, I would consider myself like more of like a Mexican food novice. This feels like like a next level, right? Like, you know, you start with the tacos burritos, which, like, you know, if you talk to. To true Mexican friends of a shower would tell you, like, they don't eat tacos in Mexico. Like, not the way we eat it anyway. But like, this would be like the. An evolution of that. Like, you know, you. You just get started eating like, you know, your Taco Bells and whatever, you move on to better tacos. And now you're trying to experience like something else, but it definitely still has that kind of aroma to it, but it's a very, very different experience. So definitely try it out.

Thanks for this. Tastes like it's not pandering to any non Mexican audience. Yes.

So I already forgot where you came it from. So. So if you were sponsored by this restaurant, this would be like a terrible plug. But I would. I would definitely try it again, actually.

A surprising fun fact. So for those that are listening, if you've ever been to Duffins Donuts, I feel it's such a unique shop because, you know, they have obviously donuts there, but they also sell tortas. They also have tamales there. So.

But this is not from Duffins Donuts.

No, this is not for Duffin's Donuts.

So we're giving a plug to Duffins Donuts, but we are not eating Duffins Donuts.

No, I just found it very interesting because they have just such a wide range of foods there. Like, you can get a hot dog, the hamburger, but if you want, you can also go for tamales or jortas from Duffins Donuts.

You know what this reminds me of? Do you know? So it's like Chinese, like lotus leaf wrapped with like sticky rice.

Yes.

Inside.

Yes.

It's like the same principle. Yeah.

The spices are different. Yeah.

Very similar. Yeah.

For sure. Now if. If you're in Vancouver, you're new to Vancouver, since. Since we're already plugging Duff. And so it's one of the weirdest restaurants I can say out there because it's open 24 hours. There's. And it's pretty busy most all the times I've been there, I haven't been there in three in the morning. But, you know, it is what it is. But every time I've been there, it's busy and like their Donuts are not bad. Like you said, you can get hot food there as well. You can also get fried chicken there.

Oh, yeah, they have fried chicken.

Now that I mention it, like, I realize, like, we've done like three seasons, bits and bites, and we haven't had fried chicken on here once. What's going on, Samson? I'm gonna blame you, even though you've only been here for once.

We need to talk to Ray. We need to increase our budget, but, you know, upgrade to us. The Korean chicken ain't cheap.

Yeah.

Can I plug something?

Yeah.

Best pierogies in Vancouver that I've ever had from Cafe du Soleil on commercial.

Yes.

And it's like there's Cafe du Soleil, like du. And then do like French too. D, E U X. So it's. The second one is the cafe, like, there are two sons in this coffee shop and they only serve. Their pierogies are so precious because they only want to serve it like after 5pm wow. And if you go there for lunch, it's not even available. But it's just the best pierogies that I've ever had. Yeah. They have these comedy nights where people just go up for random bits of improv comedy and that's when you would order the pierogis. And they're so good.

All right, I need to write this down. Cafe du Soleil.

We'll tag that in somewhere. But definitely for those of you that are new to Vancouver, this is one you're going to want to write down. These are only things that you find on our show. I would guarantee you no tech show in the world will talk about pierogies on commercial. Was it commercial or.

Yeah, commercial.

Commercial.

Broadway, in that area.

They do. So they closed just a few months ago. Wait, the Duselay or Desolate?

Yeah, there's two.

The French.

Oh, no. They were kind of like the cultural subculture center of you uncultured people.

No.

Why?

We're in shock.

I also heard, like, completely unrelated to food, but like Catoro Cafe, the really popular bubble tea shop to adopt cats. I know they're also struggling from the pandemic. It's really sad to see so many big icons in Vancouver's community. Just. Yeah. Still feeling the impact of COVID 19.

Well, you can get your pierogies a Starbucks instead then.

Imagine if they started selling. Actually, no, I guess they do sell hot food, but I was thinking, like, you know, actual fuller meals that would be. Maybe that's the next direction.

Anyway, so kind of. Kind of drawing. We obviously have Gone far along from talking about Sherry's life a little bit. But I'm always curious because actually you're the second musician that has come on the show. But I'm always curious about musicians. Did you always want to be in music? What kind of drew you maybe from a young age? Was it something that you just found that you were good at or what happened?

I'm very seriously eating, so I have to finish this bite.

Yeah, fair enough.

This is not for a show. I'm actually hungry. I purposely didn't eat breakfast.

Oh, we got to buy more food then.

No, no, no, this will be perfect. Very filling. Okay. So I listened to the last episode. The opera singer. Yeah, yeah. Opera singer turned soccer. I thought that was so fascinating. I've told. It's a little bit of an awkward story, but I'm very open about it. So. I have played piano throughout my childhood, but, you know, very like average Chinese kid style. Yeah. And then I learned when I was in grade four, I actually studied in Montreal.

Okay.

And my catchment happened to be the best music. High school, middle school. It was like elementary middle school, high school all the way through.

Yeah.

But it was an art centered school. It's called Face Formation Artistic aux Central de l', education, which means artistic formation at education center.

Okay.

Okay. And then it was just the best school in the catchment. What it was right next to McGill University. So there I started learning four instruments. Everybody had to learn four instruments in grade four. It's.

Wow.

It's like a huge endeavor, like trumpet, violin, clarinet, flute. But even then, like, I. I found that it was easy for me to learn these instruments and I really enjoyed them, but that was never really my interest. And then it all started in grade 10 when I went to an IB school in hopes of getting into, like, you know, an Ivy League university. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then I had this huge crush on a guitarist from our school.

Yep.

Why are you laughing? So the story begins, and then.

It.

Was really to impress him that I said, oh, I want to go into music. And at the time, I think most kids were listening to, you know, like, Billboard. And if you were a little better, like your parents liked music, you might listen to something better. But to me, it was. It was very like, what do you call it? Vanilla music. Right. But this crush that I had showed me all the different styles of music that were there. Like progressive rock, electronic blues, R B, motown, like just a whole range. And at the same time, the school that I was attending, my high school, Port Moody Secondary, had a Legendary music teacher. His name is Mr. A.J. dala. He's still in the area, he's still teaching. I'm not sure which school right now, but he single handedly put together the best music program that I've ever seen ever, at any high school. So imagine if you are into music and in high school you are provided with electives, including recording arts, like with actual microphones and learning how to set up a live system, composition, logic. So music workstation, technology class, guitar, rock ensemble, all of these things. Like he single handedly put all of that together and I would really say gave us bits of professional music education that you would only get in a much later level or through paying a lot of money. But this was public education, so he was my mentor back then, even now, and completely changed my thoughts about music. So then I began to realize I was so much more interested in music than every other subject, which in. I was an IB and I had, you know, decently good grades and every other class, I just mostly I. I would fall asleep. But the moment I walk into the music classroom, which is come alive. I think a lot of music kids and theater kids have that experience. So that was about when I realized I wanted to. I'm drawn to this more than anything else.

That's really fascinating. I didn't know you went to Port Moody because I went to Port Moody.

Yeah.

When did you go to Port?

Yeah, I went. I graduated. Oh, I'm gonna out my age on the show. No, I graduated 2005.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

But was Lennonhand there? I don't remember. No, I did not go through any music class. Therefore, I just. I very resonated with the rest of your classes where you fall asleep in class. So that part I got. But that's really cool.

Yeah. I also want to kind of touch a bit because I know, like, you know, you mentioned going to IB school a lot. Like I personally never did, but my brother did. And I, um. You know, you mentioned how you were thinking about trying to get into like an actual Ivy school. And in a weird way, like, I want to explore this maybe later on your path ended up getting you into Boston eventually. Just in a completely.

Yes.

Yeah.

It's something that I've learned and I keep telling my students too, like, life is not linear. It's. Everyone assumes that life is linear and you plan it that way, but it's really not. Yeah. You know, and it goes through wiggly lines and then you end up where you're supposed to end up anyway, so. Yeah.

And I want to kind of explore that a bit here because I think the general approach that we wanted to take with your episode is to explore a little bit more about your, I guess we can call it like the wiggly line journey to where you are now. And so I know we talked a little bit about how you got into music and that was your passion. And so when you decided, I just wanted to backtrack. When you said you were going to school in Montreal, like was that by choice or was that just happened because you know your parents were suggesting, hey, look, whether they were relocated or was that.

Yeah, my growth story is just one of moving around with parents work, that's all. I went to four different elementary schools.

Wow.

Three different middle high, middle school, high schools all combined. I moved 11 times before I hit 18. Wow. So that's just because of my parents job.

Wow. And then, and then as we kind of alluded to you ended up at Berkeley post high school. And what did you study there?

Electronic production and sound design.

So by then you were already kind of deep into not just, not just music, but also like the, the production side as well.

So this is a really interesting topic, which is part of the reason why I think everyone assumes that a career in music would be very difficult. And it's also true for a large majority of, let's say kids who want to go into this is information gap, which is what you assume something is versus what something actually is. So for example, when we say like average non musicians say study music, you're thinking about what, what does that mean?

Playing an instrument.

Yeah, playing an instrument. Maybe like songwriting, right? Singing.

Yeah, yeah. So those things are. If music industry was a pyramid, those things are this much.

Yeah.

Right. And then everything else, that's where the actual industry is, that's where the career is. And it's not very different from any other tech work. Yes, it's. You learn a skill and then there's a place you apply your skill. But that's the huge information gap that people have that they don't realize what studying music actually means. Because for most kids when they say they love music, actually it's. It's the sound. Right. You enjoy hearing sounds organized in time. So it's not necessarily a specific genre of music, a style of music. Sometimes people say they just like a style of music or this thing like piano performance, for example, just because that's the only thing they've ever done. When in fact you might be drawn to a larger array of things that you might do that relates to sound.

Right.

But they were not exposed to that idea. So going back to what you said in the very beginning, which is what? What is post production? Right. So give us brief example of how vast this is. We are in the 5G era, but we are bombarded with visual entertainment every single second.

Yeah.

Where there is visual information, there is usually sound accompanied. Right?

Yeah.

So we're talking about advertisements, TV games, your phone, screen, TikTok, anything. If there's visuals, there should be sound. And as we go into the more, which I believe will happen, AR VR, XR world, that is going to be even more integrated. We barely can escape sound. Yes. Like a moment ago I heard someone's phone ring outside. Someone had to design that ringtone. Yes. Right. So what is post production is. Well, that's part of it, but the entire world of sound design and scoring. So let's say, do you guys play games? Oh yeah. What games?

You can go.

Well, right now I'm playing Valorant a lot.

Okay.

Yeah.

What about you?

Oh, I play Valorant too, but not with her. She's mean.

It just so happens that I don't know that game.

Yeah, but League of Legends.

League of Legends. Okay.

Legal.

Yeah. So say League of Legends. Right. So when you enter it, there has to be a menu, Right. When you scroll through the menu, there is sound. Right. When you select an action, there is sound. The hero walks through the field. When you're in this map, it's a certain type of music. When you go into another map, you get transported to another map. That's a new music. When you're just walking around, then there's no enemy. That's a type of music. When enemies come, all of a sudden you're into combat mode. That's different music. When you win, there's a winning music. And when you lose, there's a losing music. Right. And then you have to bounce back to. To wherever to start. Right. Like just waiting for the next combat to happen kind of thing. And for League. I know I don't play League. I have a vague understanding of it. But let's say you have different skins.

Yeah, yeah.

Skins have different soundtracks accompanying them.

Yes.

Right. I actually have a student who. I've linked them up to League's team and then they made a score for one of the skins. So all of that is sound and music and someone has to do it. Someone has to make those. You just don't think about it.

See? See, I relate to that. Because that's how Riot takes all my money.

Yeah.

I was just gonna say, like And Riot's team. Riot's music team. From what I remember, a lot of them came from my program.

That's very cool because, like, like that. That to me, is so vivid. And like. Like, like, like Gene says, like, I played Valorant, but I used to play other games, like Overwatch or Counter Strike. And one of the big differences, like, I don't know. I didn't play league either. But one of the big differences when I played Riot's games was that sound. I'm like, oh, I want to pay $10 for the skin. Because when the reload sound makes me feel good, and it's not just like, oh, I like this note. It's like it somehow creates a feeling that's like, oh, I can somehow shoot better like this, even though logically doesn't make sense. But then, you know, when your mentals go into your confidence, that actually.

Exactly. And you know, when you input, like, a magic thing you're gonna do, how do you know that you actually did it? There's a sound that tells you.

Yeah.

I mean, there's a visual, but also the sound feedback is more immediate.

Yeah.

You know, and you're like, okay, I did that thing. Yeah. Or this enemy's dead and someone has to design those sounds.

That's very cool.

Right? I think, actually Valorant's a really good example of that because I always kind of joke around with my group and stuff. I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm playing Valorant because it gives me my daily third boost. But in all seriousness, as Sam was mentioning, the skins, each individual skin has such a unique sound to it. For example, if you queued on, let's say there's a skin called Glitch Pop, which is kind of like a cyberpunk, funky pop skin aesthetic. But if you just play that sound, which is kind of like a cha chink, immediately, people, okay, that's Glitch Pop. It's such a unique sound, and especially when it comes to the satisfying feeling. Like when, for example, you get a headshot, which is the prime type of aim you want to go for, they just have this, like, accompanying, like, note that goes with it. So it's like. It just becomes really satisfying when you hit those. And it progresses as well when you get multiple kills. So, yeah, definitely.

Yes. Like, one of the. The highest grossing mobile game of all time, Candy Crush.

Oh, yeah.

What do you play it for? You play for the. Mmm. Yeah.

My mother is a big fan of that.

It's got such relaxing music, and you just play.

But that Also kind of goes into like, iconic sounds, right? Like when we talk about Netflix and those who are listening, it's that sound.

Sonic branding.

Yeah, Sonic branding. I think that's sonic branding. That's I guess the professional word for it. Now I can just stop saying, let's do that Netflix thing.

We actually designed the new sound for Emily Carl's logo. They have a moving video logo. So that's part. All part of it. You know, Ted has a sound. Ted talks, for example. Yeah, a lot of things. You just relate the.

Relate to the sound.

Yeah.

Actually, I have a question for you. So how does the process in all of this, like, start, like, let's say like Launch Academy. We came to you and we're like, hey, we want a intro, like sound to just chime us in for a bit and bites episode. Like, how does that process kind of start? Like, is there, like, questions that you kind of ask? Or like research and branding?

Absolutely. It's what moods do you want? How long do you want it to be? Lots of emotional words like, what are the emotions that you want to create? That's my job as a professional, to interpret your very subjective adjectives into what that means sonically. And I'll ask for references, like, what are some sounds that you like? Or if you don't have any, then I will, based on what you gave me, provide you a list of references and say, what do you think about this? What do you think about that? Do you like this style? That style? This style? That style. We narrow it down and then I start making something as a draft. And then I give that to you.

Yeah. And then kind of, kind of. I want to definitely talk about to switches the company you started with your co founder, but kind of trying to connect the dots here. Right. So we have one example where it's like someone comes to you and like we're using that Netflix example where some guns, they want a specific sound. Others like small, small, scrappy companies like us. And full disclosure, now the wall is closed. We'll go on Sound Forest or Steamforce or something like that. We'll buy $4.99, whatever it is. So do you find that you have. When clients come to you or potential clients, is there a lot of convincing to do that? The amount of custom work, the. The original kind of sound production for them is more value than like, where was the gap? Right. Obviously it depends on budgets. If they don't have the budget, they don't have it. But for those that have the budget but they're not sure if they want to spend it. Do you find that your customers, as a generality, are educated enough? And I guess it has to be because you've built a business out of this, right?

I very rarely do convincing. Mm. I believe that if I have to convince you to spend money on something, then you will find a million reasons to find unhappiness in my work. If you come to me, it's because you already realize the value of this thing. Then we can just talk about budget, Right? Right. So because everybody's needs are different, I don't feel like telling someone what their needs are. The. The convincing could happen in ways where they don't realize that something is missing. So, for example, you guys have very good sound as a podcast. Okay. But great job. But let's say some podcasts, I don't know how many you've listened to. Like sometimes some podcasts would have, let's say, a very noisy background or not a very good sound capture, and it doesn't sound as professional as it could be. Then they don't necessarily realize that. Or sometimes the volume goes like up and down. Right.

Right.

So let's say that podcast isn't doing very well, but they don't know why. Then there is an opportunity for me to convince you by showing you how much better this can be. But even that I do very little of. I much prefer approaching people who have a ready need that I can just fill.

That's very cool. And so that's where most of your clientele, I presume, comes in. They. They kind of. You have a history of work. And so. So let's talk about that a little bit. Like ichtas. How did it start? And. And you know, you know, yourself being a pretty young entrepreneur to. It sounds like a lot of your work is referrals and connections and things like that. How did you build that base so that, you know, for lack of better word, you can survive as a company?

Yeah. So I started working pretty early. I think I was. I was. If starting from grade 12. I started writing lyrics and top lining for songs and from my networking, my personal networks. Then, yeah, I think that third year of college, which I sped up my college experience. I graduated in three years. That last year was the last time that my parents gave me any money was for the tuition.

Good for you.

Of college. So throughout that entire time, I was working and networking like crazy. And I'm sure you guys talk about network a lot on this podcast, so I won't go into it. So then when we started out in 2010 18. It was just because my partner Gao, we collaborated on her final, like, thesis project, which used VR and spatial audio, which was a very new technology.

And this was like, 2018, end of.

2017, beginning of 2018. So she completed that, and nobody really understood what spatial audio was. Even VR was a very new thing. So we got a lot of attention through that. And very quickly we realized people didn't understand this. There's a need, there are things that we can do, and we're like, okay, we think that there's a opportunity here. The other side of the coin was my original plan post graduation was to go back to China and be some kind of a artist. And I was there and I tried this thing, and it didn't work out because of various reasons, including I cannot restrain myself from food. That's actually the biggest one. I was preparing for a TV show, and then they asked me to fast, to lose weight because. And I understand. I don't blame them. Like, yes, you do look better when you're thin on camera, because camera adds 10 pounds.

Yeah.

But it was just so hard on me to not be able to eat that I was like, I don't want to do this for another 20 years.

Yeah.

You know, So I quit that thing. And I was like, let's start something. I see opportunities here. So I convinced Gao to start a company together. Well, she. She was already on track to do her own thing, but one person's effort is still limited. So we thought that it'd be a lot better if it's the two of us.

Yeah.

And then. So when. When ICTUS started, what was kind of like its primary goal? Or did you have specific, like, demographics of customers in mind or what were you guys doing?

In the very beginning, we were only.

Thinking about.

ICTUS was whatever we did with our skills. That's all. There's not much of a plan. We knew the areas that we wanted to go into being VR and also commercials at the time. I have already started doing some passion projects with directors.