Dhiren Amin shares how China's consumption-driven culture shaped the country's rapid innovation

Hello and welcome to the Rich Robinson Show. I'm your host, Rich Robinson. Over the past 25 years, I've been an entrepreneur, investor, advisor, and professor here in Asia. After nearly a quarter of a century in China, I'm now based here in Bali, Indonesia, the island of the gods. Asia is my home now. 60% of the world's population also lives here, but I would contend 80% of the world's dynamism and opportunity is right here in the region. On the show, you'll hear candid and fun conversations with some of my friends and colleagues, people I've met along my journey, entrepreneurs, operators, experts. It will help you unlock actionable insights around the Asia region and the entrepreneurial agility that actually defines it. This first season, season 1 of The Rich Robinson Show, is titled At the Speed of China. Like, wait for it, at the speed of light. Things happen fast in China, and in this season 1, we're gonna take a deeper look at that. The rapid economic development over the past few decades, as well as the speed and cycles of innovation taking place all day, every day, right now. Let's go, Jio!

And showtime! Good morning, dearin. I'm in. Coming to us from Shanghai on a Saturday morning.

Wow.

Personifying the speed of China by putting in the extra hours on the weekend. Thank you, sir. Welcome to the pod.

Thank you very much. Well, I'm not really working, but typically it's easier to do this on a weekend. So thanks for making the time, Rich.

Thank you. Yeah. Well, you're working by spreading the word of your good work. So I appreciate it. Thank you. For those out there in podcast land, give it just a quick introduction on your role and what you're focusing on there in Shanghai.

So I work for Kraft Heinz and I'm the Chief Marketing Officer for Kraft Heinz for Asia. I'm based in China because China is our largest Asian market. So the Asia leadership is based out of here. My mandate, of course, outside of China as well is Indonesia. And then what we call Asia trading, which covers the rest of Asia, which includes Thailand, Malaysia, Philippines, Singapore, India, and a few other markets I may be missing with the exception of Japan and Korea.

Wow.

Kaboom. Yeah. Kraft Heinz, gigantic organization. And that's a gigantic footprint to cover. I bet pre-COVID you had an amazing mini shampoo collection from across the region.

No. So I took the role actually. On the brink of COVID So I moved to China and to this role in December of 2019, in December and Jan of 2020. And so prior to COVID, I was based in Indonesia. I was with Kraft Heinz and I was the CMO for Indonesia. So it's during the COVID period that I got here. Well, to be fair, China or Shanghai, the city I live in, was recovered from COVID quickly. So we were back in offices from March of 2020. And have been doing so from then. So from that standpoint, it's China had a business as usual period much longer during COVID than most other countries, thankfully. And so that was a good thing.

Fascinating. Yeah. You know, I'm here in Indonesia. I'm in Bali after 24 years in China and I'm a pandemic refugee, happily so, on the island of the gods, which I'm sure you know well. And I got back to China last, yeah.

Yeah. I used to spend my weekends in Bali.

I bet you did. I bet you did. Right. It's just Jakarta is a dynamic, amazing city, but it's wonderful to get a short hop out here to really enjoy. And I went back to China in October, November to do a project for the Asia Infrastructure Investment Bank. You know, the $100 billion antidote to the World Bank. Their mantra is clean, green, and lean. And they were feeling after 5 years, maybe not so lean anymore, but definitely clean and green. So I did a project on entrepreneurial mindset and I got to go back to China on this kind of diplomatic visa, which was kind of unusual and difficult to get back in. So I went back in, in October, November last year, and I sold everything, courtyard home, cars, everything. And it was business as usual in China. I went to a 400-person event in a ballroom. It was called the Chirfan for Charity. And yeah, masks in the subway, but it was kind of fascinating. Like the entire world shifted to remote work, but China was back in the office. So it's actually something I think that maybe a lot of people haven't fully internalized that even though You know, China was hard hit, you know, initially by the virus. It bounced back super quickly.

Yeah, I've tried to explain to people when people ask me about my life here and I say it's normal. I think the concept of normalcy for people, if you're living in a country that's harder hit by pandemic, is tough to imagine. I think we as a society have kind of forgotten what normalcy meant and having to explain that It was really, really life or is really, really life is normal to a lot of people. It's tough. I appreciate why people can't get it, but equally I appreciate more that we in China have the privilege of living that life. Indeed.

So Indonesia, you know, world's 4th largest country, as you well know, just putting that out there into podcast land and, you know, $4,500 to $4,800 GDP per capita, depending on data. So, you know, lots of growth and dynamism. So that must've been a fascinating role as well too, but let's go back a few steps, like to where you grew up and kind of your path to China and your role now?

I grew up in India. I'm Indian. My professional career, the first 8 years were in Indian advertising. I used to work in a function in advertising called strategic planning. My last role was actually head of strategic planning for an agency called McCann in India. This was way back in 2012. After that, I moved to the world of FMCG and I've been there ever since.

I moved to Unilever in 2013 and I was So Unilever India, if I could just pause right there. I mean, like that's—

No, not Unilever India. I was Unilever Singapore, but the second half of my advertising career, actually from 2009 onwards, was primarily even from the advertising standpoint, working on consumer goods. So I worked very closely with Unilever in that period for 3 years, actually 4 years. And then I had the privilege of working on other consumer goods behemoths in India, like Marico, like Johnson& Johnson and L'Oréal. And I think in that sense, my love for consumer goods marketing begun at that point. And then when I moved to Unilever in Singapore in 2013, I understood the full impact of what a consumer goods marketer could have. And ever since I have been hooked onto that drug and I was with Unilever Singapore. I was doing a global brand development role out of Unilever Singapore for 3 and a half years. And then I moved to Kraft Heinz in Indonesia. But even in my period in Unilever, we were based out of Singapore, not because we served Singapore, but because we served a majority of our markets were Southeast Asian. I was working in personal care at that point. And so I had the, again, the opportunity to work on a lot of Southeast Asian markets like Indonesia, Thailand, Philippines, Malaysia, and of course for personal care body in South Africa and in the US. It was a mixed but very nice experience of creating innovations and actual what I call FMCG marketing, which is not just restricted to communication. And then I took that experience and moved to Kraft Heinz in Indonesia as a CMO. You're right. Indonesia is a very dynamic market. The GDP per capita is low, but growing very fast. And of course, any country that has population or the size of population like Indonesia, India, China on its side always tends to be more driven by local consumption, which, you know, from a GDP health standpoint is always good. That's true of Indonesia as well. And yeah, again, in Indonesia, I was privileged to work on one of Indonesia's largest brands called ABC. We were brand owners for ABC and that was a fascinating journey. I was able to put a lot of my marketing skills to task and to be able to refine them a lot more in Indonesia, those 3 and a half years from an innovation standpoint, from a commercial marketing standpoint, which involves pricing and distribution. And of course, from an innovation standpoint, which is bread and butter if you're an FMCG marketer. And then I took all of that experience and the company found it worthy to move me into this role. And then I moved to this role and do China. After that, the last 2 years has been 70% about China and 30% of the rest of the world.

Wow. Great. Amazing journey. I love it. Yeah. So it's interesting, you know, so of course, you know, China's world's largest population and then India and then US and then Indonesia and In some ways, you know, India lags China in development, but then Indonesia lags India in some development. So you could take all of those skills from India, bring them to Indonesia, but then now you're kind of taking that broad view and then bringing it to China, which is this, you know, really call them spoiled consumers. The consumers in China are so, so spoiled in some ways that they don't even know it, that they have so many. Mobile services and so many, you know, other delivery options and, you know, it's so demanding. They're so incredibly demanding that they're somehow, you know, I think have in some ways better user experiences and even higher expectations than some westernized countries in some cities. Some of the second, third tier cities are probably closer to India and some of the fourth and fifth tier cities are closer to Indonesia. So you can kind of bring all of your full tool belt. of superpowers to that role. But I said, wow, of Unilever in India, just because I've come to know that working in the FMCG space in India is kind of a special forces in the military in a way. It's like it attracts the most insanely competent, hardworking, just ridiculously smart people in a way that it wouldn't in the West in some ways, just because it's such a It's a kind of the sweet spot of FMCG where it just keeps growing every year and getting more and more competitive. And, you know, it's this kind of like bootcamp in a way to be, you know, it's just so incredibly competitive, right? So maybe you could talk a little bit about that because, you know, yeah, yeah.

Of course, the Indian FMCG, unlike the rest of the world, the Indian FMCG industry is well respected and feted even in India now. the best of the talents coming out of the best of the B-schools will vie for those positions. I understand that today technology and technological companies attract that kind of talent as well, and probably a little more starting to, probably a little more so. I remain skeptical of that shift. I think the fundamentals that companies like Unilever, P&G, Kraft Heinz, and even local companies in India like Marico, I just want to show you a little Balinese welcome here.

We have a little, you know, canang doing a little offering.

That's really a blast from the past.

Yeah, it's so, it smells so amazing in my office right now. So it's really wonderful. But anyway, sorry to interrupt. Please keep going.

Yeah, it's, those companies have very strong fundamentals and, you know, there's a reason why some of their share prices will continue to grow, remain steady, and don't fluctuate because Those companies are based on strong fundamentals of really rigorous brand building with all the right levers in place around products, innovations, pricing, very cut-through communication, investments that most other people would find hard pressed to do sustainably. And so the ecosystem is built in a much more robust way in India around the world of consumer goods. And so if you come through that system, it is competitive. Because this industry is competitive. And yes, you're absolutely right. It is why some of the biggest leaders and some of the biggest organizations in consumer goods and even otherwise come from this setup.

Yeah. And there is this kind of like forged by fire, like the competitiveness at the top levels. Like people are like, wow, you see how many kick-ass Indian executives there are in the US? I'm like, have you ever been to India? You ever seen how like competitive and tough that place is? It's like, yes. It's like people come out of that environment and they're just like, I'm like, I'm ready to like take Microsoft and Google and, you know, Pepsi, et cetera, et cetera, to the next level. Right.

Yeah. Like I keep saying, the monthly market share report is a cause of serious celebration and victory laps in a lot of people's lives, which over a period of time, of course, you realize is transitory. But yeah, you're brought up on that. You're brought up and not, it's not out of a sense of competitiveness. A sense of competitiveness is inherently an Indian trait. It's an Indian trait in the way that we are brought up through the schooling systems. But I think the, that married with the tools that FMCG marketing gives to the kind of talent that works there creates an extremely valuable concoction of professionalism that will be very—

Concoction of professionalism, concoction of professionalism. That's beautiful, right? Because there's this existing framework of like, all right, the products are here and the brand awareness and, you know, loyalty is here. And we have this sort of like Unilever machine or P&G machine or whatever. And then you put amazing talent into that. And then there's this concoction. Like, I think it's a beautiful thing. It's like, it just becomes, you know, this flywheel that gets stronger and faster.

Yeah, you're absolutely right. It is really, it is one of the breeding grounds for global leadership. When it comes to brand building across the world, that is actually factually proven.

Yeah, it's fact, it's objectively true, right? I mean, you just look at like, it's not a coincidence or a mistake that there's so many, you know, American companies that are just led by Indian execs, right? And it's just, and not just at the highest level, but it's just all the, you know, CXO VP level as well too, right? So yeah, amazing. So now you make this transition to China during, you know, These unusual times, still unusual times, even though, you know, China's handled the pandemic domestically well. Tell me about some of the shifts taking all of those skills, experience, network from your experience in, you know, India and Asia globally and Indonesia, but then having to focus 70% of your laser superpowers onto China. Like what are some of the surprises or, you know, challenges or really interesting things you've observed along the way?

But firstly, I think all that any of us have is skills. I'm not entirely sure they're superpowers. Like I keep telling people, at the end of the day, we are marketers. We are not surgeons. So everything we do, if it's delayed by one day or two, is not going to cause anybody a life. But in the case of a surgeon, very different. So I'm not sure we have superpowers, but we certainly have some skills.

Yeah. Well, it may not be life or death, but you know, Kraft Heinz is A multi-billion dollar institution and 60% of the world's markets in Asia, but 80% of like the growth and dynamism. So they're not putting a schmuck in charge of marketing for Asia. So call it superpowers within your swim lane. Obviously it's not, they're not doing it as a favor, right?

No, I hope not. Well, so here's the thing. I think when you come to China, I keep telling this to people, nothing prepares you for China till you live there. Even professionally. Yeah. You cannot explain to a person the full impact of technology in China till you actually live here. The fact that you don't have to carry your wallet, the fact that everything is paid, everything happens on your phone. You can access everything from your office to payments. I just made a massive payment for something that in most other countries wouldn't allow me to. make a payment of that value on my phone yesterday is what China is, the ecosystem. We keep talking e-commerce, but the maturity of the e-commerce market in China is country miles ahead of any other country in terms of the access it gives you on the multiple devices, the number of stores that exist. It's insane.

Did you just say a country mile ahead?

No, I said many country miles ahead.

Many countries, but you said a country mile. Oh my God. That was one of my favorite expressions that nobody understands, but I guess maybe because Indians understand like miles and imperial things. It's like, that's just, I'm delighted by that. I guess maybe you also, as a marketer, have to be a wordsmith. I stopped using country mile because people were like, I couldn't understand that, but I love it. It's a long way for people in the metric system. It's far. So it's great.

Yeah, it's far. So, you know, and the other thing is the third, when it comes to innovation, you're, we are all used to innovations that are well-crafted, well done. And typically a fast innovation takes 12 months. Regular innovation takes anywhere between 18 months to 2 years. And in China, you're expected to turn innovations around in 4 to 6 months. And 4 to 6 months, 6 is a stretch. You know, nothing can prepare you.

I hate to interrupt again, but that's going In my book, like that quote right there, somebody like you who is in the trenches, like understanding exactly how long innovation happens because your company is all about product cycles. Like that's, that's a beautiful quote to really frame. And that's just not like, okay, that's double or triple faster. It's like when you shrink from 12 to 18 months to 4 to 6, it makes things an order of magnitude harder when you're shrinking.

Yeah. The order of magnitude is harder. So much harder. And finally, when it comes to the media ecosystem, it's also very fragmented, extremely fragmented. There is digital and social channels, which are much, much more than say, if I compare to Indonesia and even India or even Thailand or any of those markets. And then even when it comes to, there is no con— there is TV, but it's TV that's primarily regional. And even within TV, there are multiple choices and TV is also broken down into digital TV and, you know, it's just much more complex. So the media ecosystem is more complex. The innovation product cycles are much shorter. And you're talking to a country which is, for the lack of a better word, fully digitally enabled. These are things that don't exist in other markets at all. And so your skills may be the same, but the application of the skills Is in an environment you're entirely not aware of, and so that makes China that much harder. But it also makes that China that much a opportunity for everyone because I think if you've worked through China and found a way in some ways to be successful even moderately, it says something about your skills as a commercial leader, a marketer. So I think that's it. That's why it forges the path. For a lot of people who become global CXOs and CMOs, a lot of those people have their paths going through China for this reason.

Fascinating. That's amazing. So, you know, right now I just turned 54, but I've gotten really deeply involved in, you know, Web 3.0, right? You know, and I think Web 1, you could roughly say 1990 to '05 was, you know, content. Web 2, '05 to, you know, last year was Maybe, you know, commerce and community and, you know, at the same time, the mobile services revolution overlapped that. But now with Web3, it's really about, you know, culture and creativity, but also ownership around the blockchain. And I've been drinking out of a fire hose. I've taken all my skills experience and I've just been delightfully overwhelmed with all of this new environment in Web3 for the last 6 months. And I love it. So tell me how, like, for you, it must've been an incredible PhD, like being like thrown into the deep end after all these great experiences around the world, but then you get thrown into this new habitat in a way, and you have to like just adapt. And tell me about the learning curve and just digging deep, because also I know after 24 years in China, I speak Chinese proficiently, but I don't read super well. Like you have to depend on lieutenants and you can't necessarily consume things directly. Like tell me about some of that transition. Obviously you've ramped up now, but what was that How have you sort of attacked that?

No, it was, um, it's, so I think there are a few things. The first is to invest time in understanding. The tools of that don't change, which is spending time with consumers in consumer homes to understand them, to understand the lives they lead, spending a lot more time where you sell, which is depending on your channel mix, it could be e-commerce, could be modern trade, could be Wet markets, spending a lot of time. And then, you know, getting a firm handle on the ecosystem from your partners. And finally, and most importantly, I think getting to understand your team, understanding their capabilities, understanding what they do, understanding their challenges. So the tools of how you adapt didn't change. The speed at which you needed to adapt changed. That's really it, right? And I pretty much have been trying to do exactly that. So. It's just that everything that I would have, or any commercial marketer would have to do in a period of 5 years, in China, you have to do it in 18 months. And I think being able to adapt and to be able to make those decisions at speed, creating processes and systems that allow for that. You go from communication that, you know, you do as per campaigns in many parts of the world, and then you do some always on. In China, there's no concept of that. You're creating communication every day, deploying communication every day. You're talking to consumers every day. And so having a system that allows for you to do that at speed again is all the things you have to do. So to understand the challenges of your innovations are much shorter, your communication is every day, and hence your, all your deployment is every day. And you live in a dynamic channel environment where your pricing and your distribution decisions need to change much faster than most other places. is the first bit of understanding you need to get. I'm simplifying it, but to be able to arrive at that understanding, you need to go through a process. And then once you've done that, you have to be able to set up capabilities within the organization that allow to deliver for that.

So, yeah.

And that's been my journey, actually.

Fascinating. So I think, you know, there's this seminal book by this guy named Eric Ries. His professor is Steve Blank at Stanford, who's the Head of the entrepreneurship program. And the book's called The Lean Startup. And the premise of the book is that he was part of a startup company back in the dot-com boom days. And they had an idea and they recruited a team and they raised funding and they executed super well under budget, you know, ahead of time. And they created this product and 18 months later, they launched it to the world and then Crickets, nothing. Like it was an absolute failure and they couldn't understand why. They said, we did everything right. We had the perfect idea, team, funding, execution, but it was wrong. And The Lean Startup posits that you need to get out of the building is one thing that Steve Blank says. You got to get out and talk to the customers, but you have to kind of ship early and often. You have to have like a minimum viable product and you have to do a lot of testing and a lot of connection. So it's sort of, it's almost as if the FMCG space or other more traditional spaces are kind of moving more towards this kind of lean startup, you know, software ship early, ship often. And yeah.

100%. There is no other way to create innovations. Innovations have to, if you go from, see, firstly, let's acknowledge that there is some merit in the rigor of a 12 to 18 month innovation process.

Sure.

That rigor comes from that there's eventually innovations are about crafting, right? Let's not even talk about food. Let's talk about personal care. If you're trying to make a moisturizer, to be able to get the right fragrance, to be able to get the right texture, to be able to have all of that done with a proposition that's unique in an otherwise crowded market, having the right packaging structure, the right design, the right pricing. For all of their offering and then having the right channel mix and the right combination is innovation. That is not easy. It doesn't happen overnight. China's expectation and realistic expectation is for it to happen overnight, right? So that's what we're talking about. Now, the rigor that a lot of people have when it takes 12 to 18 months ensures that those are crafted well. Their ability to fail is low. You have to remember that. So that's number one. We tend to talk about lean startups as being this, you know, this magic unit that cranks it out at speed. There is an inherent problem with that approach because it's destined to fail more than it's destined to succeed. Your innovations, 90 or 95 out of every 100 innovations fail. Now imagine those innovations are 70% right. You're only increasing the rate at which they're going to fail. That's the reality of a lean startup model. If you break it down into simple terms.

This is so good. Like you are preposterously quotable and I'm just, I'm loving it. So no worries.

The challenge for a lot of companies in China is to be able to maintain that standard of crafting with the speed of China, right? And all FM, all companies who are in the All established companies who are in the process of doing that are struggling to hold on to the quality of the craft that defines their company with the speed at which China is operating. So it is an incredibly large challenge, right? But we have to embrace the lean startup model if you have to go into 4 to 6 month innovation cycles, but we have to be able to do it differently than the lean startup. Because we are not, or we don't have the option, or even our ethos doesn't allow for us to have the option to compromise on the quality of the product and the mix that we are putting out. And that's our inherent challenge or the inherent challenge of companies who have a track record of many centuries of creating great products that consumers love.

Yeah.

Centuries. Centuries indeed. Yeah. There's very few companies that exist anywhere. That have the sort of, you know, history in the FMCG space that you guys play in globally. Yeah.

Because we forget that we are comparing brands and products who all of us remember over a period of 20, 30 years to lean startups today. And factually, again, there aren't that many products in the last 20 years that have stood the test of time. More products have come and gone away, whether in the technology space or in the consumer space. in the last 20 years, but the ones that have stood the test of time are the ones that we remember from the time we were born.

Fantastic. Yeah. And I think there's probably, you know, at least in my household in the US, like there's brands that my grandparents preferred that then they, you know, brought up my parents on and my parents brought me up on those brands too. And they just become part of the fabric. Like you're just, of course we're going for that brand. Right. And it's like, it's multi-generational. And it's, you know, there's not many things like that in a, like we had a Motorola TV when I was growing up and then a Motorola phone. And now where's Motorola, right? But, you know, we still use the same brand of toothpaste. I still do.

So. But that's the challenge. The challenge with the ecosystem we live in today is nobody's thinking of that value, or very few people are thinking of that value. We live in a world today. I'm not talking about China. I think China. Lives in a world where it's consumption-driven. And when you inherently live in a culture that is consumption-driven, that is demanding products and brands to happen at speed, at least you are secure in the fact that there is desire and motivation to purchase. However, the ecosystem of creation today, and I'm not talking about China, but globally, has moved towards a period where I'm making a company and a product that I need to take care of for 5 years and then sell. So we live in a world where even brand building is seen from a 5-year period. And we are trying to compare ourselves to that benchmark.

So that's a fascinating segue there is that in China now, it seems, especially in the last 5 years, and most especially since you've lived in China, that local brands are now getting more traction in some ways, or it's like the people are more open-minded. And like, how is that competitive landscape? Because yet they don't have the history. They don't have all of that multi-generational sort of like brand equity, but they're also kind of like pirates in a way, willing to go and just do things that other more established brands wouldn't do to kind of experiment and maybe not look as good or not have as great quality. But then maybe in doing so, they find some sort of innovation secret and are able to potentially move faster. I mean, that's the kind of landscape that you're competing against in some ways as well too, but maybe not so much in FMCG, but I think in some sort of like health and beauty brands, it seems like that's a, that's probably much more of a competitive shadow than maybe Indonesia or India or other markets.

Well, so firstly, in the business that we are in food, I don't think that's true. I think in food, there are a lot of local brands who are very strong and have remained strong. A good example of that is Haidilao. Haidilao is by all, of course, Haidilao has in recent times seen some financial struggles, but Haidilao by all standards is phenomenal. They are the largest, one of the largest food chains. They sell excellent quality hot pot at very reasonable prices. And I have not seen service better than Haidilao in any store. Right. It's an excellent example of a local brand. While we are Kraft Heinz, we operate in local categories in China as well. And I can tell you in those local categories, we have some very respectable, large behemoth brands who have been around for the longest time and whose brand equity is strong. Their rate of innovation is strong. And so almost the first misnomer people have is that Chinese brands haven't been strong. It's only half the truth. And in most cases seen from the outside, there are a lot of categories where Chinese brands have been strong and very strong for all the right reasons. Of course there are categories, and I think that's what happens essentially when, you know, media or people or want to report it differently. There are some categories which take more, what I call newspaper space or per centimeter space in any form of where Chinese companies have seen a lot of growth in recent times, and there are global brands that are not able to compete as much, right? Those categories take a lot of the media space and they become the poster child of what is China, when in reality, that's not true. China has had a lot of local brands that have been very strong, right? Now let's talk about categories where that happens. A great example of categories where that happens is Mobile phones. Mobile phones in China are dominated by Chinese brands. They're dominated by— Apple's big, but they're dominated by Huawei. They're dominated by Xiaomi. They're dominated— these guys make great phones. At the end of the day, their product line and their pricing for that product line and the technological backbone with which they are supported. Is very strong. I bought a Xiaomi phone and I have a Xiaomi phone because for the segment in which I was looking for that phone at that price, it seemed like the really the best option. And I, yeah, I can afford an Apple. I can afford any phone I want, but I made a conscious choice to buy that. So my second point about Chinese brands, local Chinese brands is they are Based again, most of them on strong fundamentals, the big ones. Now let's talk about the startup industry. The startup industry, yes, there are a lot of brands that are coming up that are very large, that are funded by companies. And so there's a lot of money being pumped in and those guys invest a lot of money behind products and try and make them big very quickly. And that's That space specifically, which is a much smaller space, is where global and local brands compete. And the global brands struggle to compete because the local brands come with a lot of investor money that they're willing to spend to create brand equity and to create brand awareness at speed. But we have to divide these into, you know, size of categories and maturity of categories. So size and maturity of category, when you divide them, you will notice this kind of competition that you're talking about is in low size, is in low to medium size category with categories with no maturity that seem, but high growth that seem like the space where people want to invest, but high size, high maturity categories, I think is level playing field for Chinese and global brands.

Excellent. Yeah. Well, well framed. Thank you. And that leads me to my next and final question, which is obviously, you know, bringing somebody like you into the company, the idea is like, let's take all of this institutional knowledge globally and bring it here, but then also have somebody who can lead the charge and be nimble and respond and take action at China speed. And, you know, you're sort of forged by fire in a way being in China. And I know that the CMO of Starbucks was based in Shanghai for a long time, and now she's the global CMO and she's taken, I think, a lot of her China chops and brought it to this global role. Like, how are you channeling or funneling some of the China learning speed processes back to the mothership or other places in the region? Because specifically I look at Indonesia and the startup scene, and it was looking at Silicon Valley for a long time, but Indonesia looks at, looks at China now. And I just want to understand. Without disclosing anything sensitive, but like that sensibility starting to like filter out to other markets.

Of course. I mean, I can't comment on the company for sure, but I can certainly comment on my style. Yes, for sure. Because once you work in this environment, you yourself are pushed to break some of the barriers of how you can innovate and create. You yourself are able to question your decisions around, or not yours, but your organization's and your skills decisions around communication and the pace and the speed at which you can create it. It opens you up to trying digital ecosystems a lot more, even in countries where they're not as mature. And you start looking at them as more significant opportunities than you did earlier. You're able to find ways to push innovations faster in other markets because of hacks you've learned in China. So whether you like it or not, it becomes a part of your ethos and you will be able to apply it to other markets you work in. And I think that's the reality. And I think that's why a China stint is so valuable. It makes you create in an environment that's so fast and so competitive that it becomes a part of your ecosystem in your head. to be able to apply it elsewhere. And I think that's the biggest advantage. So I can't comment on the company.

Working out in the China gym and then you become faster and stronger.

Yeah, it is exactly that. Once you work out in a China gym, it's like going from running 10 kmph on a treadmill in other parts of the world to suddenly being put on a treadmill that's running at 30 and to be able to do it for however long.

At an incline.

At an incline. And then, and then you're just waiting and doing that.

Hey, so that's fantastic way to end it. That's wonderful. So, Dierren, that was amazing. You are a fantastic communicator, which unsurprising as the CMO of Kraft Heinz for Asia Pacific and incredibly well-framed and what a fantastic journey you've had. And I really, I learned something, learned many things from you, but I also really learned, um, you know, this is one of my favorite podcasts because somebody like you who's really in the trenches, so to speak, and kind of straddling the 2 worlds between the mothership of Kraft Heinz and the, you know, and what's going on in Shanghai and China and Asia. It's, it's really just packed with insights and I really appreciate it.

Thanks for your time on a Saturday morning. Thank you very much.

Thanks for your time.

See you. Bye.

Robinson Show Season One at the Speed of China. Visit therichrobinson.com/show to smash that subscribe button. Please also go to iTunes or whatever platform of choice, rate and comment. And until next time, thank you very much. 再见，谢谢。