Dr Gang Lu on founding TechNode from his TechCrunch experiences and his passion for tech blogging

Hello and welcome to the Rich Robinson Show. I'm your host, Rich Robinson. Over the past 25 years, I've been an entrepreneur, investor, advisor, and professor here in Asia. After nearly a quarter of a century in China, I'm now based here in Bali, Indonesia, the island of the gods.

Asia is my home now.

60% of the world's population also lives here, but I would contend 80% of the world's dynamism and opportunity is right here in the region. On the show, you'll hear candid and fun conversations with some of my friends and colleagues, people I've met along my journey, entrepreneurs, operators, experts that will help you unlock actionable insights around the Asia region and the entrepreneurial agility that actually defines it. This first season, season 1 of The Rich Robinson Show, is titled At the Speed of China. Like, wait for it, at the speed of light. Things happen fast in China, and in this season 1, we're going to take a deeper look at that. The rapid economic development over the past few decades, as well as the speed and cycles of innovation taking place all day, every day, right now.

Let's go. Jio! Showtime! Gong Lu from TechNode, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the pod, my old friend. Great to see you looking well. You're in the mothership, the headquarters of TechNode in Beijing, right?

I'm in Shanghai now. Yeah.

Oh, you're in Shanghai. Okay.

Long time no see. And, you know, good.

Long time no see indeed.

Really?

Yeah. Great. Excellent. Thanks for taking the time. Tell me and the viewers a little bit about TechNode and what the company does. Just give a little quick intro and then we'll peel back the layers to look into your history.

Yeah, sure. Well, my company is TechNode. So basically TechNode is like Tech media to start with. So basically we started, well, a long time back, um, just started covering the China's tech things, the startups, analytics, research of the overall China. Uh, so we really focused on and also, also really engaged with the Chinese startup ecosystems. So while with the media, of course, we are doing some events, you know, virtual events, offline events, because we see more and more Chinese companies going abroad. And starting like 2 years ago, we set up office based in Singapore. Uh, we call that TechBridge. So what they do is they play as a kind of bridge in between China tech and the global tech ecosystems and to help Chinese company go global and also to help international companies to understand China and also to enter the Chinese market. But because we see More and more Chinese companies going to Southeast Asia. So we spend more and more effort and to build the ecosystem across Southeast Asia as well. So we started covering Southeast Asia-based tech news, I think starting 2 years ago.

Yeah, doing, doing really well. And I see that, I can smell it now that after 24 years, I'm based in Bali in Indonesia because I wanted to be in a warmer place, but also in a new frontier. And I feel like Southeast Asia is getting a lot of its ideas. There's this idea that China was this copycat culture. Turns out the fact is that any early stage market is a copycat until they start innovating. And China has become an innovation powerhouse. Copycat is way in the past, but Southeast Asia is now copycatting China. I think maybe more than Silicon Valley.

Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree. I think. Basically, we used to have like copy to China model, but now I think we transition to the copy from China model. I mean, basically from Southeast Asia point of view. And, and if you go, I mean, I spent lots of time like before the COVID in Southeast Asia. I can feel that it's like the same pattern. What happened in China, you can feel it's happening in Southeast Asia. But of course, it's slightly different. But even faster. But what you can see is you just said is maybe everything started, it looks like started with the, like the copy stuff, copycats, but the innovation or kind of micro innovation from very beginning end up with the like 100% localized. It's amazing.

Yeah. So even like, if you look back at history, like the idea was, oh, the West innovates and China is a copycat. Like that was the idea 10, 15, 20 years ago. But actually the UK like took the idea for porcelain and also tea curing. So that's a technology, right? How to make porcelain bowls, how to cure tea. They basically took that from China. And then the US, when it was starting out, they took a lot of books from Germany, France, and England and just copied them in America and didn't pay anything for them. Right. And during the Industrial Revolution. They put people inside factories and said, okay, figure out how they do all of these industrial revolution tips and tricks. Right. And they brought that to America, right? Because America was behind. Right. I think it's just the stage of the market. And that's one of the purposes of my book, you know, The Speed of China is that number one, things are happening really fast in China. My thesis, it's like 3.94 years outside of China is one year in China. So 20 years in the West is like a half decade, just 5 years in China. So it's like a whole generation every half decade. So some of these ideas like, oh, China's a copycat culture. Like, yeah, it was, but that was a long time ago. And that's okay too. It's not a limitation of Chinese people or China. It's just, that's, that's what happens in the market. And things are just happening so quickly that people, you spend 6 months outside of China and you're not really in China. You have to go back and be there to touch the ground. So speaking of touch the ground, when did you touch the ground in China? What year was it that you were born? Where did you grow up?

Well, actually I'm born in China. I born in like '78. I did my first degree in Shanghai, 2000. So—

Are you from Shanghai? Is that where you grew up?

I originally from Chengdu.

Oh, Chengdu. Okay. Okay. Yeah.

Yeah. So. I'm from Chengdu to Shanghai. I did my first degree. Then after I graduated from first degree and I went to UK, that was 2001. So then spent 7 years in UK and I did my master's, also my PhD in computer science. Then moved to Shanghai, uh, end of 2008. So.

What was your thesis on? Your computer science thesis?

Uh, it's called Mobile ad hoc networks. I don't know if it makes sense.

Oh.

Yeah. So my background is really like a geeky background. My job, uh, when I was in UK is just a programmer. And my thesis is about like routing protocols for the mobile ad hoc network. So basically I was working on the routing protocols and everything on my own. So I always think even what I'm doing now is like, people consider me as a journalist or a media guy.

I know, I know, but I knew you as Dr. Gang Lu and I didn't introduce you that way just because I've known you for so long and I should have given you that. And I know you're not, uh, uh, so picky about it, but you are definitely a super geek in such a good way, but you're also great at writing and marketing and Networking with people and public speaking. Like most geeks can't do what you do. You have other superpowers.

I don't know, to be honest. I think it's maybe I'm not a good programmer, but, but maybe I just love like writing something I really love. And that's a lot of difference from other programmers. Yeah. So, so luckily I can keep on, you know, doing what I love for such a long time.

Yeah. That's great. So you're born in '78, so you're 43 now. Looking good for 43. Good, good, good Chinese genes. You look much, much younger. But growing up in Chengdu in the, like, 八十年代的时候, in the '80s, that must have been like, you were only, it was only 2 years after Mao died that you were born, right? So it's '78. So it's still a much different China, right? The '80s in China was, especially in Chengdu, must have been like so much different for you, right? Because it's like such a slow time in the '80s.

Yeah. I still remember my first day, why? Come all the way Chengdu and then to Shanghai. Even that time, Shanghai is a huge, huge city. I never saw before. Uh, Chengdu, because I live in Chengdu, but actually it's a really small town in Chengdu. So I think that time—

What was the population?

Well, I don't remember, but what I can tell you is if you just walk from one side to other, only took you like 30 minutes by walk. It's such a small town.

Okay. It's really a small town because sometimes people say, oh, I'm from a small town. How many people? 1.8 million, right? Because China has so many. But that, but that was really like—

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, really. I think my first day was landing in Shanghai. I went to the bank. Now in Chinese, we say like Da Shanghai. The, the, like every country boy are dreaming to be in Shanghai because Shanghai is like the real city. To every Chinese?

Yes.

But to most people, it's the real city. It really is the biggest, best city in China, right? I mean, I love Beijing, but Shanghai is the best.

Yeah. So yeah, I spent like 5 or 4 years more in Shanghai for my first degree. Then they'll say, oh, I need to see the world. So I applied to university. So I just went there.

So you're in the UK for 7 years. So what was it, 1991 that you— is that— no, I'm sorry. 19— oh no, you went to, you were born in '78, so '96.

Uh, yeah, I came to Shanghai.

And still that the, the Pudong side of the river was still not so developed in '96.

No, but I think only the, the, the other side of the Bund.

The, the others. Yeah. Maybe the Pearl, the, the tower, the Pearl TV Tower was there, but yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. So that's, I mean, everybody's seen that picture of like 1990 Shanghai and then 2020, 30 years later, that before and after. Almost seems fake because it's just unbelievable, right?

Everything, it's everything so fast. Shanghai, of course, even my hometown changes so, so fast. I, I don't, every time when I went back, I don't really realize it's my hometown. It's so fast.

Yeah, I bet. So as the thesis of my book, it's almost 150 years of change for you because you're 40 years old, right? So maybe 160 years change. Yeah. So, so you come back to China in '08 and then what did you do when you first got back?

Well, I go back, I think I spent probably half a year to kind of localize myself because the pace is so slow, you know.

Where were you in the UK?

Sheffield.

Small, small town.

Sheffield.

Yeah. Okay. So definitely not a big place. So was it even slower?

It's so slow. Uh, I remember when I came back. I, I don't think I can follow up the pace in Shanghai or in China. It's like everybody's so busy with everything. So I think I spent, because I remember for the first 3 months I did nothing. Uh, went back to Shanghai. I just spent most time in cafe and to enjoy the coffee. I love like read a book or just, you know, logging on my computer and to do something. And I think that's kind of UK life. Like after 3 months or more, I say, okay, I have to do something. So I think at beginning I did some like consulting work and to help like companies to help them to like figure out the strategy in China, blah, blah. Then I did my first startup. Actually, that's before TechNode. I think that startup, I think I spent 2 years working on that startup. I raised a little bit of money, like seed money for startups. The startups are about like what we call customized printing service. Yeah, it's nothing fancy, but basically you submit your photos or blah, blah, then you can, we do the digital printing, then we deliver your name card or blah, blah, or all the things to your room. So it's very helpful. But after 2 years, I realized even I'm the boss, but I get all the monthly, like, earning. We spent all the earnings to pay my staff. You know, basically we didn't, I didn't see the hope or any like big, big picture for this company. But then for techno, after I started techno when I was in UK as my hobby. So that was 2002 to 2007. Yeah, there was just a blog. But until 2012, I think. From, so for the first 5 years is nothing commercial. It's just my blog. I love my, I just, because I love technology and because I studied computer science.

But, but I think you were already showing, you're already making a name for yourself. Cause I read that other people read that, right? It was like you were making, and then we first met in 2011 at TechCrunch, right? So that was still before you made it commercial. So TechCrunch, which was huge. They came to China in a big splash, right? I think they had 1,500 people at their event. I was the emcee, but you were like a core part of that as well too, because they were looking for somebody who really knew insiders there. And they brought Steve Chen, the founder of, um, YouTube, and they brought Kevin Systrom, the founder of Instagram was there, right? And all kinds of like, you know, yeah, they had the latest thing.

They didn't just release the first phone at that time. They also had the earnings, right?

That's right.

Of Tencent.

Yeah. I mean, that was a big deal because he didn't talk that much in public.

Yeah, that's a big one. So, yeah, I think even before that, I think it's the TechCrunch is covering the global thing. And my blog, we really focus on China. And I think even now, we, we didn't see that much of like English resources kind of tracking China tech and the databases. So I think that's make me, you know, people started to recognize me since I started blogging. Yeah, but actually right after TechCrunch, like 2011, so around 2012, I decided to kind of turn my hobby into my career. So I started, started, you know, set up the small team with me. And so I think that's how Techno started.

That's great. And what was the, uh, the first wave? Did you get raised money or were you just bootstrapping it with advertising or sponsorship?

Yeah, actually, well, I raised a little bit of money, seed money, but actually from a friend of mine, because our friend, basically he known me for quite a while. And, and one day he came to me and say, hey, China needs TechCrunch. Basically the ecosystem needs a media to be part of the ecosystem. That time we don't have that many of tech media in China yet. So my friend say, hey, you work with TechCrunch, you have been passionate about blogging or as a tech journalist, just do it as your career and your hobby. And so basically he give me a little bit of money. So I feel lucky because I never expect anyone would give me money to do blogging and without any kind of return. So I say, oh, why not? So I took the money and started setting up the team. But actually that's the kind of turning point of my life because, you know, as a hobby, as a blogger, you can do the blogging anytime you want, you know, with no pressure at all. But once you took the money and once you like started as a founder or entrepreneurs, then suddenly I realized Okay, it's not just Kangnu anymore. It's about the team, and you need to go, or you say you need to keep going for everything. More importantly is you have to figure out how to feed your team, right? The money is a tiny money, but you need to feed your team. So I think then, and also as a blogger, I always blog whatever I want. But when you have a team, you become kind of chief editor of team. Then you, then I realized, oh, I have to tell people, tell my staff what to write about every day. You know, I, I kind of hate it because, you know, blogger is so free. So I think kind of, uh, wandering for 6 months and then I started kind of self-recognize, okay, okay, I'm an entrepreneur now and I have to take the full responsibility.

Mm-hmm.

For the whole thing. So, yeah. So.

That's great. Thanks for sharing. Yeah. And I think it's interesting because I work with a lot of entrepreneurs after having been an entrepreneur for 25 years. And oftentimes people are doing something because they enjoy it, right? And they're, I really, I really like doing this, but then you can't, can't get past that if you're just in it. If you're in it all the time, then you can't it, right? You actually have to move above it and on it and then start growing the business. And that's where there's such a challenge. And a lot of people just can't make that transition. But I think you've made that transition very well to be like, wow, okay, I'm an editor. Oh no, no, I'm a manager. Oh, I'm an entrepreneur. Well, wait a second. Now we have to do much more than just blogging. We're doing events and partnerships. Yeah.

I think the challenge Once you become an entrepreneur, the challenge I think is happening every day is you never see the challenge is over, right? You always see new problems, then you solve the problem, then you see a new, another problem. You know, when I started Techno, I started as a, like a one-person blog. Then we have a team with 6 people. I remember like once a time, then the team grew to around like close to 20 people. Then Then all of a sudden we couldn't find, we didn't raise the, you know, raise a new round. Then we didn't really figure out how to make money. Then the team went down to like 4 people. Then after a while, I think we were lucky. Then we raised another round. I think, I think around 2019, the team grew to close to 100 people.

Wow.

And then last year with the COVID I think the industry did impact a lot by the 3. So I think team, the shrinkers again. So everybody, yeah, I think it's a nonstop journey and until there. Yeah.

Nonstop journey, nonstop problem solving. Indeed. Yeah. We had a little chat, uh, before the pod and you were telling me that you were looking to do some stuff in Macau as well too. Tell us about that.

Could be a part of my journey. Um, as well. So I can tell the, like the background, why the idea of why we're thinking of doing something in Macau. So I think basically we mentioned I was in the ecosystem for long enough. So we were tracking the China, the tech. We're also, because we run the English media, so we are, we in touch with the global, like ecosystem closely as well. So you see, like, if you think about like everybody knows CES, right? The Consumer Electronics Stuff that happened every January for many, many years. I think it's not just an expo, it basically is like a tech platform. Like every, all tech guys, companies all flew to Las Vegas, right? It's like, see lots of even, you know, exhibition, conference, meeting, you know, catch up, even show, everything's happening there. But when you look at that is what happened in the past, maybe 5 years or 10 years. If you went to CES, you see, you realize You see more and more actually companies, actually they are from China or from Asia. And you see all the more and more tech innovations. I think we talk about like copy to China or talk copy, copy to China model. I think we have to admit is we see there are more and more tech innovation actually right now is actually they're coming from China or coming from Korea, Japan, and also the Asian market, APAC market. Is a massive market for everyone. But if you think about the the tech platform like CS in Las Vegas, they're almost alone in Asia. I think we used to have what they call CS Asia, but in Shanghai. Well, first of all, it's like a different level compared to the one in Las Vegas. Last year because of COVID I guess also because the China-U.S. war, they made their official announcement say CS Asia is canceled forever. So really. They're not, you know, we have like RISE, you know, we do TechCrunch events. We do our events in mainland China, RISE in Hong Kong. We have like TechSource in Thailand. We have different countries. We have different like, uh, tech events, but most of the events, I think they are more like conference, right? Conference plus stuff, but they're not like CES. CES, yeah, trade show, but we have, we have some in Hong Kong. But I guess it's kind of an older style. So we say, oh, there's nothing like, we should have one, right? Because, uh, because market and we need a platform to kind of showcase the, the Asian innovation and then bring the people from Europe, from American as well. So we talked, yeah, then we think about which city could—

That's great.

Be the perfect host that. Then compare Macau is the Asian Las Vegas, I would say. So I think if we do it—

Well, or actually more accurately, Vegas is the United States Macau because there's more money gambled in Macau than there is in Vegas. Right. So it's like that one, like that's the real number, right? I mean, it's an incredibly dynamic place with gigantic casinos and it's totally underleveraged. What a great idea. Keep going. I'm excited. I want to go attend this event.

And.

Yeah, so we decided to do that.

You're the guy to make it happen.

But, but I just want to add a little bit more is we don't want to copy CES. We don't want to do it like another CES in Asia, but we also see CES focuses on consumer electronics. But from what we see, or maybe what we see what's happening in China in past several years is, uh, you know, consumer, of course, is very important. And also it's really eyeball track. But you know, in China we talk about the industry 4.0. We talk about how the technology impact all the traditional industry. So I think the, we call Beyond, like beyond everything. So actually we, instead of focusing on electronics, the consumer electronics, we hope when people come to Macau, to Beyond, People can see, first of all, they see the technology, how technology impact all industries, which including like food tech, property tech, and healthcare. So that's the, how we want to differentiate ourselves. Yes.

That's, that's a great differentiator. And you can taste that. I can smell it in China, how quickly AI and robotics and automation is changing society there. And facial recognition and point of sale transaction devices and automated restaurants and automated healthcare, right? That's where the huge gains and the huge budgets are. So I think it's really smart. And of course, Shenzhen is the hardware capital of the world, but Macau is a fun, dynamic city. And I don't think Shenzhen is necessarily so well suited for a big event like that. Like Vegas is not a—

Yeah.

Vegas has a startup ecosystem and there's a few people that have set up shop there, but Vegas is Vegas because it has so many hotel rooms and it has so much entertainment and it has all the casinos and it has all the great food, right? So I think it's really funny how Macau, but you were saying earlier that Macau got hit during COVID So now they're a little bit more interested in being a little more nimble and experimenting with new things and They were just making so much money with gambling that they didn't need to.

Yeah. So I think the—

What a great opportunity. I think—

I think Macau had the city culture. And also, as you mentioned, Macau is like hugely reliant on the casino stuff before. And, but Macau has also, so basically Macau wants to kind of diversify their economy structure because they are hit by COVID last year so badly. And so I think probably Vegas is, could be the good example for Macau to learn from. And to host all types of expo or events, you bring people in, in Macau. And also maybe they can also learn from Singapore as well to do something like Founder Fund or Temasek or something. Yeah. So I think there are lots of opportunities.

Yes.

Um, so yeah, but we're going to do that this year. Actually, we set a day in end of August this year. I know it's really, it's very, very, uh, For this year.

What?

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So we'll see.

Ambitious. That's amazing.

Wow.

Yeah, that's great. And I think one of the reasons why I live in Bali after almost a quarter of a century in China is because I can do stuff remotely, right? Interview you, teach, work. And I think business travel will be reduced. I don't think people will get on a plane quite as much. And I think people will work remotely. But I think these big events are so valuable. I love going to Web Summit or to CES or to any of these larger events, RISE in Hong Kong, and now it's moving to KL. And I think they're really important. And I think those are going to come roaring back in 2022 in a big way and beyond. Just is the connecting with old friends, being able to go there and have 20 meetings in 3 days. And then also serendipitously discover new things. Like that's just so valuable that remote will not replace that. And plus it's—

Yeah, I think the world's changed. I think they're going to hybrid for a long, long time. But, but we still, I think for people, we still need like, you know, physical, kind of physical life, you know, to meet each other. Maybe not that often, but we still need to meet each other. You hope like if you are sitting beside me, I'm sure we're going to have, we're going to drink after the talk, right?

But indeed, you said it. I look, I look forward to doing that in Macau. Probably not this year, but next. Hey, so share with us, you know, it's been a crazy 10 years in China, right? So much has happened. China's gone from C2C, copy to China, to CFC, copy from China. And there's so many unicorns coming out of China, Beijing, Shanghai, Hangzhou, Shenzhen. There's so much innovation. You know, basically paper money almost disappeared. Mobile payments have taken over China a long time ago. Medtech, fintech, new retail, electric mobility, on and on and on. Like if you bring people in from Silicon Valley or from Europe or, you know, the West, and you want to tell them stories about China or let them understand what's happened in China, what, what, what are some of the things That come to your mind when you think of the speed of China, how quickly things change?

Everybody knows the China speed, but to me is, you know, I only talking about like the tech stuff. I think everything is almost every year, the tech thing in China, always there's like one kind of vertical. It's super, super hot in China. You know, we used to have fintech, out of the fintech is like IoT, out of IoT. Because the O2O, I mean, before that, every year we always, for Chinese, we always are the ecosystems or industry. We can always figure out something super for that. Everybody run for that. Then I think to always, almost everything is start with here. I don't know if right to say, but we have to admit is people love to copy from each other at the very beginning.

Yeah.

So always, all industry you start with, you see that it's like chaos. You're like, just so many players, they're doing exactly the same thing. Then the competition is so tough. But, you know, after maybe half year or one year, you always, the market coming down, then the good one leave, then lots of the bad one, they just, you know, Yeah. Gone nowhere. And then people start thinking about, from maybe from day one, people think about first the technology, think about how to monetize the technologies, the application, and how we can make money from that. I think that's why you see people, if we compare the lots of cases is, if you look at the, like WeChat, you know, WeChat is not really new. And like voice app is also copied idea from others, but WeChat built its kingdom so quick because they think about the ecosystem. They think about the, even like the how to interact with the offline business. I think that's kind of Chinese philosophies. And also the, for Chinese philosophies, there also is, if you look at all the big guys right now in China, always they started something. Really unique. Then once they are became big in their sector, they started to reach out to all the sectors. It's more like spiders. But the last thing, like Facebook, during so many years, Facebook still, we say Facebook is working. Yeah, it's just still super—

Pretty parallel. Twitter is very different. Barely changed at all in 13, 14 years.

Alibaba is just e-commerce at the very beginning. Like gaming or maybe social networking at the very beginning. But now if you look at their business, it's so much overlapped, right? And even like JD, you know, Jingdong has their fintech. JD also do O2O, crowdfunding, everything. So I think that's kind of, um, Chinese philosophy is if you become something, you know, I'm capable of doing everything. Maybe it's like 2 sides. Maybe sometimes some people think it's bad, but if you look at the other side, that's why the market, we, everybody is moving so fast because the competition everywhere, right? Because you never know where you're at. Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah. Yes. So there is this mindset and culture where people are like, we got to keep moving as fast as we can. Because our existing markets, we can't take them for granted, right? Somebody can come and disrupt us. And we have to start looking at new opportunities and continue to experiment and grow. Because I think I teach at Bayda and we talk entrepreneurship. And the first class is about ideation. What's an idea? Like I just asked the class, what's an idea? And all an idea is like, there is nothing really new. An idea is just a combination of other things that already exist. That's really all that an idea is. And there's no shame in copying, right? I mean, look at Microsoft. They started copying. They copied from Park Xerox. They copied from IBM. Apple did the same thing as well too. People don't like to talk about that, right? I think what really matters is, I think this is a tweet from Elon Musk, is the pace of innovation. Like how quickly do you experiment around that? Just because you're copying doesn't mean you're going to win, right? Especially with the fierce competition. You talked about O2O and Wang Xing and Meituan, right? They had 7,000, 7,000 competitors in the group buying phenomenon, right? And then Meituan comes out of that like a phoenix, like forged by fire. They were so strong after surviving that. That they've become this incredible O2O monster, and they kind of like almost like created this whole new category. But they were just basically just pulling other things together. I think also you talked about making money. The the one thing that I know that for sure the Chinese market is the very best at is business model innovation. Like for sure, there's nobody even close. Like not the U.S., not Japan, not know, anywhere else in the world, Chinese companies are incredibly good at finding ways to monetize and adjust their business model. Look at Facebook. I think 80, 90% of their revenues come from ads and the rest come from games, right? Tencent is the total opposite. Like they knew they couldn't make money from advertising and they basically started doing virtual items, which is such a much better business in so many ways because Number one, the margins are the best. You have, you know, 96% gross margins, right? And number two, you're actually aligned with the users. You're selling them stuff that they want. It's actually interesting how healthy that ecosystem is with Tencent compared to Facebook in many ways, right? They don't allow their partners to spam or hurt the users in the way that maybe Facebook has allowed, right? And also the data as well too, it's actually a little bit more, more protected. So yeah, it's fascinating how the, the 2 ecosystems of Silicon Valley and China have like so many parallels, but they, they really, you know, so different. How do you see some of the differences between, say, Silicon Valley and China? Why some of the similarities?

But maybe to me right now is, yeah, think about Silicon Valley. I think I used to go to Silicon Valley almost every year. I don't know, like 3 years ago, 4 years ago. Because the reason I went there, just because I want to learn like new stuff, what's happening, what's new technology, what's the new trend, blah, blah, blah. But seriously, like I haven't been to Silicon Valley for 3 years or 4 years. You know, I didn't see the—

Yes.

I didn't have that much of a passion to go there anymore because even we are working with TechCrunch since 2011. I remember even when we walk at events. I think at the first maybe 3 years or 5 years, like every time when I started thinking about the speakers, I always in conversation with our technology colleagues say, hey, bring me like the founder of Instagram, the founder of blah, blah, blah, right? Because I know these guys, they are super famous in China because we copy, we are copying them, right? But these days. Like starting maybe 4 years ago, if you look at all the new, like the Chinese unicorns or, or Chinese, like the founders or the great companies, I think you feel very few examples they can find their counterpart in Silicon Valley. They're not doing Silicon Valley anymore. And if you ask me what's the politics for startups or, or what companies, big companies in Silicon Valley, I don't know.

Yeah. So I think you're right in the consumer space for sure. Now, you know, companies like TikTok coming out of nowhere, right. And like dominating globally. And I think in enterprise software and maybe some deep tech in the US, there's definitely some lead there. But when you're talking about hardware, when you're talking about consumer, when you're talking about mobile, when you're talking about applying AI to consumers as well too, China's really Pushing the envelope and the O2O revolution and things with EVs and mobile payments. China's way out ahead. I heard of a story of a group of Chinese executives, entrepreneurs that go to Silicon Valley for a tour, right? Let's go visit, you know, Twitch, Facebook, Google, whatever, right? It's fun to go there, right? You go and get a free meal and you get to see the campus and you hear a lot of Chinese being spoken on the campus because they have a lot of Chinese engineers there, right? But then they took them to the Visa Innovation Center, like the Visa MasterCard, where it's like, yes, you raise your eyebrows. And they were like, what is this, the innovation center? Or is this the museum? Like, are you kidding me? We're from China. Like, this is like, this is so dusty and old. Like, that's so far in the past to us. It's like taking us to a, you know, a car factory and showing us some antique model Fords, right? That's like— Ridiculous, right? So I, so that's a really good piece of data that somebody like you who, like, there's not many guys who have bridged Silicon Valley and China like you, right? Your partnership with TechCrunch, your global, you know, connection. For the most part, Chinese companies are very Chinese focused, which is not a criticism, right? It's just the market is so big and there's so much going on. Like you don't see Chinese founders going to talk at events in Europe or US. I actually worked with the RISE event in Hong Kong to try to get Chinese founders to go to Hong Kong. And they were like, yeah, sorry. I don't even want to go. Right. It's just no offense. It's just, I'm so busy and I'm so focused on China. What's the upside for me to go there? Right. So people don't have a good feel for what's happening in China. And it's easy to just think, oh, China's still copycat or big brother, or just some sort of like idea from 15 years ago, but somebody like you is like, yeah, 3, 4 years ago, I decided it wasn't even COVID. I'm not going to go to Silicon Valley because I'm, there's so much.

Yeah.

Or how China was expanding.

I wanted to learn from Silicon Valley to kind of dig in like new stuff or new, like future of the tech. Just don't get me wrong. Of course, you talk about AI or the new technology. Of course, Silicon Valley has loads of it still. It's still leading. But what I want to kind of say is, you know, what I really—

Yeah, sure, sure, sure, sure.

Is all the stuff there, because it's like a decoupling, right? Because what's happening in Silicon Valley is I think you cannot learn that much anymore because China, it has its own industry. We see because the payment system, the social media, the ecosystem, everything is different now. We like Pinduoduo. But can I learn anything from Silicon Valley and then apply something to Pinduoduo? The business model is, uh, it's not really anymore. Yeah.

No way. No way. Not really.

No.

Yeah. So yeah, that's fascinating, you know, and like, yeah, you're right. I mean, there's still plenty of innovation coming out of Silicon Valley, but you know, when you go to Silicon Valley, I go to visit Google and Twitch and Airbnb and Facebook, like I go to the consumer, you know, internet companies to go visit my buddies who are execs there and have lunch together. I mean, like, that's what you really, really are interested in. You know, enterprise software still has a long way to go in China. And I think, you know, even some deep tech stuff has a long way to grow. But what we're really talking about is that there's 7.8 billion people in the world. Half of them roughly are on the internet. We're going to cap out at probably 12 billion people. So let's say there's another 7, 8 billion people online. In the future, right? Another, you know, three, four billion. Who's mopping that up? Who's winning that? Is it Silicon Valley or is it China? Right? Because a lot of that's from Africa. A lot of that's from Southeast Asia. A lot of that's from Latin America. And sure, Silicon Valley has a lot of momentum. But I think you talk about how China's becoming more Chinese companies more aggressive in Southeast Asia. I think you know that's just the beginning, and there's going to be a lot more examples. You look at TikTok. Like the thing about TikTok is what do these guys and mostly guys, engineers in Beijing know about teens doing videos in the US? They know nothing. They don't know anything about that, but their algorithms do. Right. And like, that's all that matters, right? Is like their algorithms are predicting what videos they want to watch. So, you know, that's why TikTok is so dominant everywhere else in the world is because of the technology and the Rapid prototyping and launching, and a lot of people think TikTok is just basically one company, one app. But they have dozens of other apps, and they throw away so many apps if they don't get the right kind of traction. And they're constantly experimenting and launching and learning and using those machine learning that they really think that's going to become important.

Yeah, I think that TikTok has the, you know, around the world. The future of Biden is he's huge. I think his People only know TikTok, but just probably this is good. Like they have the Lock, the what's it called? Lock is more like how to say the collaborative tools.

Yeah, like Slack, but yeah, but like Slack kind of, I think, you know, we, because I have a new one.

Lock is like my international club, their staff, they all use Lock now. Alibaba. Yeah, I think the, the feedback for them is they don't feel it's like a Chinese company or Chinese kind of software.

Is that right?

Very international. Yeah.

See, that's, that's what's happening now. That's what's happening is that things were so Chinese flavored before that people are like, oh, the usability is very Chinese. Right. Which Chinese people love, but on the West there's a different sensibility. Right. And now Chinese companies have really been able to— So much that's happening now. I think learned really fast from the West.

Yeah.

Can I ask one other question? Like who, who are your top They don't even have to be necessarily running the show now. Who are your favorite Chinese entrepreneurs? Maybe it's difficult for you to pick some favorite children because you, you cover so many, but, um, I just think there's a few that are just so extraordinary.

Of course, the founder of ByteDance is amazing. I saw it's amazing because I think I really amazed by ByteDance because I don't, I don't actually, I don't use Bing. I don't use Douyin. No, but I, I was amazed by, of course, because by, by China, because I know the founder.

Oh, okay.

2014. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. When, when did you first meet him? Did you meet him before he started?

I think that, that time they only have one product.

2014.

It's called Toutiao.

Yeah. That was, that was the year they, no, they started in 2013. Is that right or no?

Yeah.

Because I think my impression when I met him that time, it was the junior Toutiao.

He's, uh, he's just a local guy. Right. Hothead lunch. Even like doing a news aggregator, just Chinese, like, like 100% Chinese.

Yeah. He's a little bit introverted, right?

He's just like, you know, yeah, yeah. And look at how international TikTok is.

It's not a criticism. It's just, you know, like all this stuff. Underestimated.

I think I also talked to their team. I mean, well, the team is huge now, but by itself, I feel like all the people there they hire is, I feel it's like Google. The, who I entered ByteDance office, I feel it's like the people, like the, you feel the, the synergy, the passion, something I feel when you are in Silicon Valley, when you're in the Google office, right? And so you see all the stuff they have is so creative. So that's why I see the, I was, I think the founder is, I don't know, the beauty of the company culture is, I think it's so great on that. Yeah.

You know, I think it's interesting you say that because, you know, I first visited the company when they hired their first LOI, Maya, who is Israeli American. And I went to the— they had a Luckin Coffee. And I think that they were maybe 2,000 people or something at the time. And of course I knew about them, but I wanted to just visit and see and smell it out. And yeah, I felt that there really is this kind of like, it's like hun vernau, like there is this like energy there. Right. And the one thing that I really loved about it is that there are so many companies that made a mistake coming into China, international companies. They couldn't make it work in China. And I think one thing that ByteDance has done well is that they open up all these international offices. They aren't afraid to be messy. They're like, you know what? It's going to be a local office, local people, local language. We have all the engineering and the tech in Beijing, but we're going to let them do the marketing and do the sort of sales and all of the administration in France in a French way and in the US in a US way. Right. Of course, I think some of the bigger markets, they sent some people from the mothership, but I think that was one thing where I was really impressed that they were like, let's just do it the way that works. It works better that way. It's not as, it's, it's messier and it's more difficult, but it works. Right. Because I think the temptation is Let's send a whole bunch of people from the US to Beijing to set up the company. And then let's do it on US time and US culture. And it's like, that's one of the major things that killed companies coming into China. They couldn't move quickly enough. They couldn't be local enough. But I think ByteDance was like, whatever works. If it works, just let's just do it. And I think that's one of the keys to their success. And I think that's the whole thing about Zhang Yiming is, I think he's really great at just experiment. What, what works? Okay. That works. Then that wins. And let's go. Right. And I think that's one of the reasons why things can happen so quickly in China as well too. That's also part of the mindset that I think is, you know, across so many even more established companies as well too. This kind of like practical, pragmatic view. So terrific. Hey, Dr. Gong Lu, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you so much.

That's a wrap. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Rich Robinson Show, season one at the speed of China. Visit the rich robinson dot com forward slash show to smash that subscribe button. Please also go to iTunes or whatever platform. Form of choice, rate and comment. And until next time, thank you very much. Say again.

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