Cash Balance Plans Explained: How the Deduction Works

Jason, have you ever heard of a 401? The 401 and the 401 are 96% the same. Deduction on the way in, roll to an IRA on the way out. So what are the 4 major differences? This is why we started this company, is to repensionize America. One of only a very small handful of ways to get a 50% discount on whole life insurance. And then the 4th difference is there's a cool arbitrage to get the insurance out and own it in your personal name. Infinite banking, becoming your own bank, multi-generational planning with it, estate planning.

Let's do a bit of a paint-by-numbers approach.

You can, during the proposal process, say if you contribute $200,000 a year for the 10 years into this plan, you're guaranteed this growth rate in whole life. I can get you $17,000 a month in perpetuity. Never sell it. Never sell it. If I have an income floor here, I don't have to worry about the 4% rule or volatility hedging and all this nonsense that I was doing as the chief investment officer. You can actually put a non-minor as a joint annuitant on an annuity, or granddaughter as the joint annuitant, and that income lasts as long as the grandchild lives. Because our tagline is deductions today, assets tomorrow. If you are a small business owner and you're profitable, you can get a tax deduction to retire on a very large scale. No one starts a bank with as little money and as short a time horizon as possible. And I've done this before, so anyone who's kind of seen any of your work or my work may hear this, but I, I found this to be a useful teaching heuristic. I am technically actually not doing justice to the compliance schema, but I want to teach first. Okay, Jason, have you ever heard of a 401?

Yes.

Great. Is the money that you put into it tax, tax, uh, tax deductible? Yes. Yeah.

Okay.

You're saying it's a deferral and you're going to pay it later. That's where your brain went, right?

Immediately.

Right. But if I'm making $200K and I'm a W-2 employee and I put $20 grand into my 401, the IRS is going to say this employee didn't make $200K, they made $180K, correct?

That's right.

Yep. So you get a deduction, right? Don't worry about the back end. Now, on the back end of a 401, it rolls to an IRA or you hit your RMDs, right?

Right.

Guess what? The 401 system is identical. You want to teach pensions, you relate it to something you already know and understand.

Right.

The 401 and the 401 are 96% the same. Deduction on the way in, roll to an IRA on the way out. So what are the 4 major differences? And then we're gonna get back to Richard's point about a 65-year-old. The first major difference between an A and a K is the sheer volume that you can put into a 401. Whether you're 25 or 65, that's the most you can put in. There's a couple years of a catch-up provision, but we're going to teach to the, to the norms here, right?

So the guy who's on a million-dollar salary as like a COO of a major company, you know, that's not going to move the needle a whole heck of a lot.

Yes, sir. Well said. It is inherently regressive, right? Actually, you can put in a— he puts in that, that successful individual who needs more advanced tax planning is really handcuffed by the 401 system because the more you make, it doesn't scale with you. What's interesting about the pension system, it scales with age and income. That same 55-year-old making $1 million a year can put in around $300,000 to $350,000 into their own pension.

Night and day.

Night and day. That's what— so the first difference is the size. Cool. Questions there?

No.

Good.

Great. The second difference is what we've already talked about, is, yeah, you want to make a commitment to this. No one goes to work for a company for a year and says, give me my pension for the rest of my life. Like, that's ridiculous, right? So that's the second major difference. We've already covered that. The third difference is the, the main reason I started my company. In a 401, you can buy stocks, bonds, and hold cash. You are allowed to do all 3 of those in a 401, but you're also allowed to buy life insurance and annuities. This is why we started this company, is to repensionize America. One of only a very small handful of ways to get a 50% discount on whole life insurance. And then the 4th difference is there's a cool arbitrage to get the insurance out and own it in your personal name and then do wonderful things like infinite banking, becoming your own bank, multi-generational planning with it, estate planning. Imagine giving a client a tax deduction to do their estate planning. The creative use of cash balance plans is a dialogue that we want to change nationally. So those are the 4 differences, just to rehab, and then I want to hear why that Excel came out, Jason. But, but it's larger. in terms of the amount that you can put in. The asset allocation is different in that you can buy life insurance if you choose. You don't have to. No one's going to say you can only do a 401 if you use life insurance. No, that's our specialty. That's our niche. But by no means is that— it's a commitment that you want. You want to think about it as an intermediate-term to long-term commitment. And there's a cool arbitrage to get the insurance out in the back end. The cool part about cash balance plans is it's a time machine. We find a lot of our sweet spot is actually someone 60 to 65 who was like a good classic entrepreneur says today, For breakfast, I'm gonna eat glass because that's what we do all day, right? And they were heads down building their business. They were underfunded for retirement. Guess what? With those $300,000, $400,000 a year you can put in at a later age, you can really play catch-up quickly and do it all via tax deduction. So a 3-year commitment if you're 64 is actually pretty, pretty worthwhile because from 64, 65, 66, for those last 3, 4 years, you can get $1.5, $2 million into a pension. And completely change your glide path. That is the exception. But I didn't want to dismiss a 60, 62-year-old listening going, oh wait, that's me. My business has finally hit its stride, but I'm under-reserved. It turns out there's a solution. Yeah, there's a solution for that, Richard.

The other element to that that I hear is, you know, just logically speaking, as people move through phases of life, common features is that people at that age of life, they have accumulated more assets, they have more access, they have more capital resources that they could deploy. appropriately to make that 3 years viable in that scenario, right? If they're only putting in $25,000 for 3 years, then it's not yet— you could do it in 3 years, but now what are we accomplishing versus if you're doing $300 grand for 3 years, we have a very different distinction. I think that's the key point I wanted to make sure that we captured on our session today so that our viewers like, oh, okay, now I see, is this relating to me or not relating to me sort of a situation.

Yeah, yeah. So back to, is it relating to me? Do I have a relatively stable business? Do I have a consistent tax liability? And then you're zeroing in on, hey, this is something I should explore with the team at Ascendant and see if this fits, you know, is this the right move for them? But yeah, the 65-year-olds are our sweet spot 'cause we find that not only they were path A that I described, that they were so heads down building, they didn't have 2 nickels to rub together 'cause they were building, but also we're finding a really cool opportunity to say, What happens at 65 is your kids are finally out of the house, if that was part of your life journey, and you're now either thinking about retirement or your legacy. Well, do you want to pay full price for life insurance? Do you want to get it half off? So we end up finding people who are legacy shopping, and they're using the tax code to do it for them, right? Why not get a subsidy from Uncle Sam to buy the golden asset?

Amen to that. And let's, uh, let's do a bit of a paint-by-numbers approach. So you, you have a business owner Aged 50, the business owner says, yep, I'm exploring this as an option. And business owner decides, I'm going to allocate $300K a year into a dividend-paying whole life insurance contract. So let's walk that listener through in a paint-by-numbers. This is what it represents. Now, again, caveat, I mean, this is just purely, as we've all shared, It's just educational. We're just referencing a process, not necessarily what the exact numbers are going to work out for someone. But let's paint the number— paint by numbers and walk the listener through that.

Absolutely. And, and I love that, interrupt with questions, because we just could— there's 64 quadrillion permutations of a Rubik's Cube. There's probably that many permutations of a pension. So let's go, let's go to like the norms. This business owner that Jason just met is making $800,000 of net income. And I chose that number because you gave me $300,000, so I'm gonna back into numbers that are easily divisible, team.

There you go.

I'm not starting weird on purpose. So let's say they're doing $1 million of top line and they have their standard $200,000 of deductions, one, one or 2 staff members, the usual stuff, right? Some marketing, some advertising. And what they're showing is their taxable income is $800,000. Cool. Let's say they're in the 37% tax bracket and 3% state, so it's 40%. Okay, you can pay 40% of $800,000 if your CPA is not, you know, actively looking for solutions, or you can do what Jason recommended, is explore a cash balance plan.

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What's going to happen is your example is $300,000, correct?

Yes.

If you put $300,000 into the cash balance plan, the IRS is going to say, no, you didn't make $800,000, you made $500,000. So now your tax bill goes from 0.4 times $800,000, which is $320,000, to 0.4 times $500,000, which is $200,000. It's $120,000 immediately not going to Uncle Sam. But that's only the first half of the analysis. The $300,000 you parted with is going to assets. So $300,000 minus the, the $120,000 that you saved is how much of a discount you got on that. You're effectively buying— your example is $300,000 of whole life— you're buying $300,000 of whole life For $180,000. What's your IRR on whole life that you got at 40% off?

It's just—

are you worried about your PUA-to-base ratio then? Like, are you kidding me? And so that's the alchemy of the whole thing.

That's, that's, that was a point that's still sitting on the books, is basically pre-funding a large chunk of next year's Pension allotment.

Oh yeah, no, this is a 6-figure deduction for a 7-figure outcome. And, and the cool part about it is you get to say that because this— does life insurance ever go down?

No.

So you're gonna part with cash either way because I don't want people to believe— like, almost all tax deductions or strategies, you're parting with some form of cash. When you buy the heavy vehicle, you part with the least amount of cash because you can finance it, but then you're parting with cash every month for the next 5 years you finance that vehicle. Here, you're parting with cash to get assets. You're getting that subsidy. And then you get that most important dialogue that we could do 10 episodes on it is my clients, our clients at The Owner's Asset in year 3 or 4 behave real differently about their business when they know they have a pension.

Yeah, I was just going to say, absolutely. I mean, it really influences always being future-focused and what their contribution to the business is going to be. how much commitment and dedication they're going to have to staying actively engaged in it. I'll share something with you that sort of ties to what we've been discussing. I was discussing this with— it was a business owner who had mentioned something about his accountant and having a great conversation with his accountant. It's like, well, I heard you say that The accountant said that you're the business's most important asset. So why is the recommendation that you focus on investing first versus protecting the most important asset's ability to produce in the first place? And he's like, ah, dude, I want to do business with you. It's like, nobody's even asking. Think about that. Honestly, think about it. Hey, you're the business's most important asset, but I think you should take all of this surplus and invest it.

Yeah. In someone else's business that's not yours.

You've ceded control when you've— you said you're investing on someone else's behalf. And look, I'm a professional investor and I love equities, but there's a right way and a wrong way. And you gave me an answer, by the way, Jason, the book above your right shoulder, right, is how I invest, is dividend-based. But you're ceding control twice, right? You're ceding control to someone else, but also you're ceding control when you don't make long-term decisions, because then you're worried about 6 months from now, not 6 years from now, not a decade from now.

Right.

My sense is, so in Q3 of 1979 is when the IRS and ERISA came out to create the 401. And since then, we've seen a decrease in the length of time that people stay at jobs. People job hopped less when they knew they were getting a pension. Now, since the pension system is dying in corporate America and we've taken that risk back onto the individual, right, we've made pensions portable by the 401 system. We're seeing that degrade the tenure of the workforce. And so what's so cool about what we're doing with small business owners is they can settle into their your business for a little bit longer. Because when you build a cash balance plan the right way, when you build it with, with risk-transferred assets, when you build it with insurance and annuities, the preferred method— because I want you to take risk in your 401, I want you to take risk in your business, I want you to take risk with your other assets— you need some high ground money, you need some income flooring to take place. You can, during the proposal process, say if you contribute $200,000 a year for the 10 years into this plan, you're guaranteed this growth rate in whole life, you're guaranteed this growth rate with annuities. I can get you $17,000 a month in perpetuity.

Yeah, you'll never— you'll, you'll never outlive it.

You can't outlive it. Even if you become— if you become Tuck Everlasting and live 200 years, right? Like, what you end up seeing— my favorite part of that meeting is I look at somebody, say, congratulations, you have mailbox money. You're never gonna have less than this. You see this happen, they go, and they lean back and their shoulders relax, and you watch a physiological change in, in their composure. And they get to settle back into their business because they're like, oh my God, I can do this and this and this now because I'm— my worst case, my BATNA, right? My best alternative negotiating position is a $17,000 a month floor. Man, it's a cool business heuristic beyond the tax implications, which we can get back to. But I'm finding the behavioral and human elements to cash balance plans to be the biggest surprise of this business.

Well, I'll add to what you just said, Rohit, because again, thinking of Thinking of these conversations that we're all blessed to have with business owners, especially at a point in a business owner's journey, if the business has shifted from its startup phase and now the business is sustainable and then it moves into being durable, the entrepreneur, the owner, often within their circle, They're told, hey, you've got to reinvest everything back into the business. And whenever I hear that, it's like, you know what? That's an admirable conviction. But from my own experience, 16, now 17 companies in our group of companies, that is a dangerous concentration. Every dollar of your capital has to have a plan is what I'm trying to get to. Part of the capital's plan, reinvest it back into the business. Part of the capital's plan, look at a cash balance plan. Part of the capital's plan, look at whatever it is that you need to do to develop, grow, expand, amplify the business. You've got to reinvest everything back into the business. Personally, I think that's admirable, but it's a dangerous concentration.

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Agree 100%, because you got to know when to take some of your chips off the table. And I think the 2 nuances that we're driving at here is what I'm finding, and I'm just going to reframe it for the 3rd time because it's such a, such a big shift in our company, is when you take a little bit off the table, you're more present for what's on the table is what I've been trying to— like, right? When you take some out, you're like so much more hyperfocused. And what's interesting is I would argue, I could argue, and I'm thinking out loud here, so I apologize for any half-formed thoughts, but what you are reinvesting back in the business when you fund a cash balance plan, you're doing it 2 levels. One, you're decreasing the business's tax liability, right? And 2, it's a form of taking care of the owners and the key employees. I literally got in yesterday from a meeting in Charlotte or Greensboro, North Carolina, and the CEO goes, I have 2 employees that have built this business. Do not overweight my pension to me, the owner. Take care of them. So this is a guy building culture and thinking about golden handcuffs as well. And he's like, why don't I give my, my whole team The greatest gift of all, and that's financial security.

Amen.

Oh my God, that's life-changing. I like stopped and couldn't speak, and I, I talk too much, right? I was like, whoa.

What's really cool about that, Rhoda— there's a lot of things about that, but also we're talking about, you know, you identified the cost of change and transition in businesses, finding good people or, or attracting them, the amount of money just spent on recruitment agencies and stuff. Recruitment agency businesses didn't need to exist when there was a prop, you know, there was the old school pension system because people didn't transition the way they do now. So whole new industries have been created because of the way it's been transitioned. So there's a drive and a desire and cost elements attached to what we can do in HR, what programs can we get, how can we attract and retain people, the cost of transition. So that matters. And you talk so much about like the 401 asset, Astrile, and using dividend-paying whole life specifically as the asset class that you're doing in the process, I wrote down 5 C's that get created in that process, and they tie to the behavioral elements you discussed. Things that we talk about are a big component of this that we do. So number 1 is confidence.

Hmm.

Number 2 is clarity. Number 3 is capital, which you have the capital, but you're allocating it correctly. You're giving the capital a job, like Jason says. You're hiring that capital to do a specific job now, and you're being intentional about it. Number 4 is cash flow. That's what you've talked about. Now, the cash flow is a future cash flow. That's that $17,000 of mailback money. That's that guaranteed confidence of ongoing lifetime cash flow that you get created. And the last one is control. So it circles back to all the things we're talking about here. What I also think is interesting that we haven't mentioned, I think is really important, is you're locking in the strongest dollar today, but you're locking in the strongest dollar at a mass scale. you're getting a discounted dollar because of the deduction, but you're also locking in the full value of the dollars in today's inflation-adjusted world. So we know that the hidden tax on us, we can talk about the IRS's taxes, but the hidden tax that's on the backs of every living citizen is inflation. And you've created an additional levered inflation hedge because you're getting a discounted dollar on today's money that's going to accumulate at a future money value because of the structure of the underlying asset. So that is a very unique proposition that you may not be identifying in your meetings today.

I am dizzy because, yeah, that's like a perfect summary of all the things I've said on every channel I've been on. Let's talk about hidden taxes first. I frame this differently. So yours was much more eloquent, and I know Jason, trademarks everything. So we'll trademark— you guys should trademark some of this stuff because it's super cool. Okay, hidden taxes. What— that's actually on— that's a very deep dialogue. It's not just inflation, but let's start with inflation. Inflation is an insidious tax, and unfortunately it's just part of the world that we live in. It's endogenous to any economic system, and it's been proven whether it's capitalism, Keynesian economics, whatever economic system— inflation is, is endogenous to any economic system. If you were to run a regression on the chain-weighted CPI and, and see which assets are most correlated to it, it's the best predictor of it. It's the 10-year Treasury note.

Yeah.

And Jason knows more about life insurance than I'll ever— he's forgotten more than I'll learn. The dividend rate in whole life has typically lagged what? 10-year Treasury. So you're getting a built-in inflation hedge with, with dividend-paying whole life. The real hidden tax though is— it was a 2013 or 2014 LIMRA study that said that people who have annuities actually live longer. You can actually increase lifespan with surety of income. There was also an article in October of 2005 in the Wall Street Journal called Friends, Neighbors, and Annuities, and it's people who had high social connectivity and consistency of income that had the highest satiety rates in retirement. So this idea of a hidden tax, what's so interesting is it's not just a numerical consideration. It's actually a very human consideration because like I said, there's something wonderful that knows you're going to end up being okay in some way, shape, or form. So it's something we talk about, but not quite with the elegance that you brought up, Richard, because look, let's now shift to all the negatives of cash balance funds and why they don't work. We owe the listeners that dialogue. The biggest pushback I get actually is, sure, some people think life insurance is a dirty word. They just don't understand it yet because we know it beats bonds. If you look at the Barclays AGG— bond is a 4-letter word to me, by the way. So just as a former CIO, bond is a 4-letter word. Don't ever say that word to me, right?

Okay.

I'd rather buy dividend-paying whole life over bonds. It beats it mathematically, period, end of story. Take the Barclays AGG, the largest index of bonds, and compare it to the IRR of whole life. It wins, right? That's not even adjusting it for taxes. And then there's zero volatility, and there's no bond portfolio in the world that will pay you what would have grown to. If I buy $100K of bonds and I die tomorrow, my family gets the $100K of bonds. I put down $100K of life insurance and I die tomorrow, my family gets millions.

That's right.

You can get people over the life insurance when you talk about it in their parlance. I get as much pushback on annuities, and this is what I love. Here's my favorite strategy in the world. It's not even cash balance plans. It's what happens on the back end of a cash balance plan. For your listeners, remember, a cash balance plan is first and foremost a tax play. Second, it's a way to buy life insurance at a discount. And third, it's downstream optionality. So now let's talk about the downstream optionality. What I'm doing with my clients is we're taking the annuity out of the plan when they close it. We take the life insurance out. There's a taxable friction there, and we'll walk through that in a minute. We're making sure the annuity is large enough to pay those premiums.

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We take the fixed index annuity and turn it into a SPIA, high current income annuity, and it's paying their premiums for them. Now, Jason, a policy that's seasoned for 20 years— let's just use round numbers— you're putting $100K into a policy that's been seasoned for 20 years. How much you getting access to the next year?

A lot more than that.

$250,000, $300,000. That's how you turn $100,000 of income into $300,000 of cash flow from the dialogue we started 7 hours ago, right? This is exactly how you do that, guys.

This is game-changing stuff because If you have tax-preferred cash flow because of the structure of how you're accessing it from the underlying asset.

That's— yeah, that's what I'm saying. It's cash flow when it comes out of life insurance. And now a lot of annuity companies— and interestingly enough, I did this for my father. We bought an annuity for his basic needs, and my dad just, you know, they, they spend. They like to spend, right? Happy guy lives his life. I had the insurance company self-escrow his taxes because if it touched my dad's hands, he's spending it. If you have the right client who has whole life insurance You should be self-escrowing the taxes on your RMDs into your whole life in retirement. Think about self-escrowing your taxes into a whole life policy, a whole life policy that you bought via deduction, and an annuity you bought via deduction. The dominoes don't end on proper planning. If you have insurance and annuities, you get to do the most important thing in the world with your risk assets. And let's say your only risk asset was the S&P 500, hypothetically. What's the most important thing you can do with the S&P? It's a trick question. Well, what do you guys think is the most important thing you can do with the S&P? Never sell it. Yeah, never sell it. Never sell it. If I have an income floor here, I don't have to worry about the 4% rule or volatility hedging and all this nonsense that I was doing as the chief investment officer. The S&P is fundamentally—

You're saying you don't need 4,000 Monte Carlo, uh, analysis with some graphs showing when it's going to deteriorate and you're left destitute on Uncle Sam's dollar. I love that. You have a proper plan.

I, I— you don't need to run those if you have a proper plan, but I still love equities and, and, and I will always have more wealth there. But the whole point of the dialogue is someone who ran an $8 billion desk is telling you when you add this other stuff, you get to do what that is designed to do. Let me rephrase it in English now without using phrases like Monte Carlo. Richard, I'm picking on you now. Ready? Have you read an article where the S&P had to pay taxes?

No.

No. Does the S&P have to send a kid to college?

Nope.

Does the S&P have to retire?

Nope.

So why in all 10,000 Indian gods' names are we comparing our wealth to that? It has nothing to do with it, right? It is a fundamentally wonderful index to capture American innovation, global innovation, and equity risk premiums. It has nothing to do with how we touch money. Its benefit lies in the fact that it is a call option that never expires. The only way to own a call option that never expires is to have something else that you can consume when it's not working out. And that's why I fell in love with whole life and annuities, because it lets me stay on the equity curve. I will do anything to keep me on the risk curve. Sorry, Jason, go ahead.

What you're mentioning too, right, ties perfectly into Jason's ultimate tag team scenario. Where you, if you own it with no intention or plan to ever sell, when you go to, if you've got your income needs and everything solved, plus you have proper insurance that will be there when you die regardless of the time, which a lot of insurance doesn't do that, but properly designed whole life certainly will. You're now creating an optimized effect where when you do transition things down to the next generation, you can transition not just an estate value You're transitioning assets that continue and a mindset that continues with it because you've proven over time the impact. That's how you make statistical long-term change in a world that's all based on what can I get on my phone in the next 30 seconds, right? Amazon yesterday where they came into my house and put it in my fridge compared to how do we actually create a longevity mindset around not just life and health, but around the life and health of our monetary value and the utilization of it.

Best conversation I've ever had because you guys get it. It's the words like mindset and culture that actually matter over the long term. And what I've been working on in the lab quietly, and I don't know if there's a term for this and maybe there isn't, I just, because I'm very independent, maybe there's someone's published this, but you can actually put a non-minor as a joint annuitant on an annuity. or granddaughter as the joint annuitant, and that income lasts as long as the grandchild lives. And now you've, now you've created the mechanism to pay premium forever, or to dollar-cost average into the S&P if you're an equity family, or to have the staying power to own the real estate. And now you take that life insurance that you had on Grandma and Grandpa, you move it irrevocably, you get to step up on the real estate, or you get to step up on the S&P. And imagine if you bought that life insurance via deduction. You just created all 3 simultaneously. We've covered family governance, Taxes and cash flow. And my favorite way to do it all is using the pension system as the ultimate hack. That's all it is. It's a code. It's a section of code. It's words.

You just—

they're fungible, just like dollars are. You get to do creative things with it.

That is so good. Rich, take us home, brother.

Rohit, we, uh, we ran the gamut, I think, today a little bit, which was awesome. And, um, you know, this is the type of episode where our business owner clients, the people listening in, they're gonna, they're gonna go and hit the rewind button and say, what was that again? Let's, let's play that back. And so we would encourage all of our listeners to do that. But we wanna leave them with something because you've told us a lot about strategy. You've been very clear, very specific, a little bit about your own mindset. But what you haven't shared with us is who you most wanna be a hero to.

Love that question. I have to like pause because it's a powerful question. We can't solve the retirement crisis globally. We can't solve it in Canada. We can't solve it in the US. We can for the small and mid-sized business owner, because our tagline is deductions today, assets tomorrow. And if that resonates with you, call Jason, call Richard. They'll partner with us. They'll bring us in where it fits. Yes, if you are a small business owner and you're profitable, you can get a tax deduction to retire at a very large scale. That's who we're doing it for. And you're right, there's a lot of self-education that happens. So I think We've written a playbook on this and we give it out for free. So, and it's written to the CPA and business owner audience. And so you can share it with your CPA. We do CPA trainings. We'll do whatever, you know, the Ascendant team needs from us from a tactical support perspective to help. But that's, those are our heroes that we're trying to solve. Entrepreneurship is the backbone of any good society, any good culture, any good country. And we need to champion those individuals.

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I, I would say, Rohit, thank you. Thank you for, um, bringing your thinking, um, to, to our audience on Wealth on Main Street and to all of our existing and future Ascendant, uh, clients. And You know, any person willing to reread one of Richard and my books deserves either tremendous respect or a wellness check.

And I have to jump in there. And even though it's in the foreword of the book, one of my favorite lines was, and I'm making sure people see that I'm not breaking eye contact and my hands are sort of looking at the book, is no one starts a bank with as little money and as short a time horizon as possible.

Right?

Like, it's so true, right? No one. When I read that, I actually stopped and closed the book and I was like, okay. Dig in, Ron. This is going to be a good one. And that just resonated with me because, because it's the short-termism that is pervasive. And we've talked about it, whether it's the job hopping, which I get it. I've had several roles. It's, it's the focus on quarterly earnings. Well, why not? Why not do something that inoculates all of that? Right. And so I find this to be a timely and relevant cultural discussion as well together, guys. So thank you.

You're welcome. And to everybody listening or watching on the YouTubes, Just, uh, continue the journey of learning. You'll see another video that's popped up. That's intentional. Uh, there's no such thing as having arrived in knowledge. And subscribe to Wealth on Main Street so you don't miss, uh, the conversations ahead. And as we asked at the beginning, leave us a comment. Maybe it's an idea that challenged you. Maybe it clarified something for you, or it caused you to look at your own financial structure differently. And we love receiving the feedback that you enjoy the episodes. We most love hearing what made you think and the conversations that you think are worth continuing. And so until next time, keep learning, keep asking better questions, and keep directing your capital with intention. Thanks, guys. This was fun.

Thank you.