Rob Hersov’s ‘swansong’ - His US podcast roadshow; Liam joining PA; Abedian’s world-class assessment — BizNews Radio

South Africa's favourite capitalist activist, not so favoured by the people on the left, Rob Hersoff, is back for his fortnightly chat about all things business and the political economy. Gee, Rob, so much has happened since our last conversation. I've been watching some Truly world-class appearances by you on international podcasters. Now, you don't get onto these big-hitting podcasts with millions of listeners and viewers, uh, very easily. How did it all happen? It's almost like you did a roadshow of the American media heavyweights at a time that Cyril Ramaphosa was embarrassing the country. Sorry, I mustn't say that. Cyril Ramaphosa and his group were meeting in the White House with Donald Trump, and well, there were mixed returns. They think they did brilliantly. Many people think not, but let's put that one side. At this time, simultaneously, you were talking to tens of millions of Americans, almost doing a road show. What brought it on?

So it was a focused and coherent strategy. You know, the problem with a lot of our online podcasts and interviews and mainstream media is everybody's in an echo chamber. That's part of the problem with polarization, not just in America, but around the world is, you know, we follow our beliefs and our beliefs lead us to various media companies, podcasters, and we operate in that echo chamber. You know, the likelihood of me ever listening to CNN or MS, uh, You know, MSNBC in America is almost zero. And the podcasters I follow in America are the Joe Rogans and the Dave Rubens and the, you know, Charlie Kirks, Laura Logans, Patrick Bet-Davids, like I'm sure many of the other biz news tribesmen. And in South Africa, I made a conscious policy not to be caught in an echo chamber, but to go out and have discussions with you know, black podcasters. So I appeared for many, you know, on many occasions on the Pen, Black Pen, his show, uh, Penwell's show. Um, but he's gone a bit, he's got a bit off-piste at the moment. Um, and then I did DJ Spoo, I did Sizwe Mpofu-Walsh, Mac G, um, you know, and others. And my aim was simply to talk to them, get their views, give my views, and try and reach a broader audience in South Africa. And it worked. You know, I think it moved the needle quite a bit in South Africa, me being on those mainly Black podcasters. Um, and in America, the strategy was the same. It's a time to speak to the international audience. And it's not an easy, um, thing to crack, but it happened actually when you and I were at the ARC conference in February in London. And I walked up to Jordan Peterson and I walked up to Konstantin Kisin and I walked up to Dave Rubin. And I said, this is who I am. I need to be on your show. South Africa's ought to be, um, in front of your audience. And it's going to be more and more important and more and more relevant because Donald Trump has a, uh, thorn in his foot about South Africa. He sees the country as DEI in motion. He's not happy with what the ANC are doing. He's not happy with what he sees going on. And there are a lot of voices around him who are saying, South Africa's in bad shape. The ANC is destroying the country. It's a racist and socialist, um, government. The ANC are bad. Please take notice. And Trump did take notice. So I said, I've gotta get on these podcasters. And of the ones I mentioned at the ARC conference, Dave Rubin, I hooked up, I ambushed him. I walked up to him and said, you're Dave Rubin. Yeah. I'm coming on your show. And he went, okay, what are we gonna talk about? I said, South Africa. And, uh, you know, he kind of delayed it from Monday to Tuesday to Wednesday, and then Wednesday from 3 o'clock to 4 o'clock to 5, and eventually he squeezed me in. We did a 10-minute conversation and it took him 3 weeks to release it. And eventually I called his guy, Phoenix Glenn. I said, Phoenix, when are you releasing it? He said, no, we're releasing it this week. And he released it and it went viral. But in addition to that, Elon Musk retweeted it to something like 57 million people. And that put me, and in many cases, South Africa on the map. And then Dave Rubin called me and said, we've got to get you back. We've got to do a full hour in the studio. And Patrick Bet-David's people reached out, uh, Tucker Carlson's people reached out, but I mean, he'd already spoken or was speaking to Ernst Routs. And so it went. And all of a sudden, everybody was saying, we've got to tell our viewers about South Africa. You know, who's someone that tells, tells it like it is, gives the facts, Rob Hersov. And it was quite a tour and it happened to coincide with Cyril Ramaphosa's disastrous performance in the White House. I mean, Alec, you said it like it is. It was a farce. It was a farce that, uh, who he had in his team, you know, his, um, poodles that he took with him into the, uh, into the White House. The whole thing was a farce. And it coincided with that. I did the Rubin Report the day before, Patrick Bet-David the day after, and then it was followed by all the others, Lara Logan, Charlie Kirk, and some of the big MAGA and Beltway television networks, Newsmax, John Solomon, John Fredericks. You know, there was a big deluge of people wanting to hear about South Africa, and that has continued. And then I flew to London and I was on Trigonometry, uh, Constantine Kissens and, uh, and Francis Foster's show. And there've been a lot of follow-ups from other people, Lotus Eaters, um, Heretics, uh, and others, and Sky News Australia wanting to hear about South Africa. And I think this is a good thing for South Africa to have the spotlight shine on our country and what's going on. Because for 30 years, the ANC and all their, you know, lapdog media like News24 and other podcasters have been getting away with murder, literally saying what they want at any time with no one pushing back. Well, they can't do it anymore because the spotlight's on South Africa and it's pretty clear the destruction that the en ANC has caused to this country. It's care for the world to see.

Rob, it's great that you were featured in this way and profiled in this way because of all kinds of reasons, but 15 minutes of fame is so, so apparent in the media world. What is going to extend this beyond those 15 minutes? In other words, what is going to keep the Americans interested in South Africa, or have they already lost interest?

No, they haven't. Um, you know, the anger of what's going on in South Africa, the anger at the ANC, it's what it's done to our country, you know, racist laws, socialist laws, deindustrialization, complete economic mismanagement is, is a bipartisan issue in America. It's not just the Republicans, it's Democrats too. And Congressman Ronny Jackson of Texas is putting a bill together, which I think goes to the, goes to Congress in August, September. To sanction individuals in the government, in the ANC, and it's been extended to EFF, MK, and other anti-American hate speech gangsters. Um, and I think that will create a huge amount of focus on South Africa. So we may have a quieter period over the next month or so, and then it's going to be reinvigorated by what's happening with Ronnie Jackson's bill. So it ain't going away. I'll tell you one more little thing on the, on my podcast tour. Piers Morgan called me. I want you to be on my show. And I thought, okay, great. I want to do this. You know, that's a great voice. And then my wife, wise as can be, said, Rob, I don't think you should be on that show because Piers Morgan has 4 people. There'll be you and someone else, you know, similar views, which was Ernst Rüdts was the other one. And then he'll have two idiots from the left, which he did, some clown from the SABC and that really stupid juvenile narcissist, Dan Corder, the three beanie guy. And she said, it's just going to be clickbait for Piers's show. You're going to end up fighting with each other. You get basically a chance to say two things and it's not the format you need to be on. So I sent Piers a message. I said, Piers, Thank you for inviting. I really appreciate it. But if you want a sensible, mature discussion, one-on-one, I'm your man, but I'm not doing clickbait for Piers Morgan's show. And he didn't respond, but Gareth Cliffe took up the, took up the flag and he did, he took that on. So Ronnie Jackson's bill, August, September goes to Congress, goes to Senate and gets implemented probably by Q1, if not by the end of the year. So South Africa's, you know, there's a lot else going on in the world. Donald Trump and his team have their hands full with Iran, amongst other things. South Africa's off the radar for the time being, but has not gone away.

Rob, what about the local reaction? And I ask this, I was having a look through the Social Research Foundation's analysis of what South Africans think about Donald Trump. This was in April, so it was before the Oval Office slamdown. And at that stage, it was very clear that whites and Indians kind of like him, blacks and coloureds really don't like him. And it's a very disparate thing amongst black and coloured people that were spoken to by the SRF's researchers. 50% strongly dislike the man, which is very high in a category where you go strongly agree, mildly agree, mildly disagree, and strongly disagree. So are you getting that kind of kickback here in South Africa? And I want to segue into Gaten McKenzie and your relationship there, because there's lots of interesting things happening there right at the moment.

I don't know if I believe that poll. You know, people prior to Trump being elected, you could barely find a person in South Africa that was brave enough to say they would support Donald Trump. You know, everybody, mostly wives were like, ah, Donald Trump's terrible. He's a narcissist. He's a, you know, blah, blah, blah. And then the husbands wouldn't say a word, but you know, around the braai and quietly and privately, a lot of people supported him. And when he got elected, people came out of the woodwork. Oh yeah, I'd supported Donald all the time, which they did. They just didn't do it publicly. And I think these polls are, depends on the day, depends on the week. You know, when it comes to something like Donald Trump, I don't believe them. I'm sorry. SRF are superb, but that is more of an emotive poll issue than a practical poll issue. I think it's kind of a, you know, if you, if you do that poll in another month or you do it Once America's gone all in on Iran, you might see a different answer. So I wouldn't, you know, Gaetan, as we're going to get told by Gaetan, he says polls are for strippers. And I think in that case, that poll, he's probably right.

But your reaction from the people that you engage with, and one of the things I love about you, Rob, is that you're out there all the time. You're walking in the streets. You aren't deranged and in a little ivory tower somewhere. You're shaking hands, and I've seen it in action. Clearly, you will have been approached by people who would've given you some feel from the way that they are reacting to all this TikTok and social media clips that are now going around from your American tour.

I think more people are more supportive of Trump than you think, and certainly more than the SRF polls show. And I'm surprised about that comment about the colored community. Engage with the colored community a lot.

Yeah.

And the, everyone I engage with is pro-Trump. South Africa is broadly a Judeo-Christian country. 88% of South Africans are Christian. You know, Trump is the leader of the Judeo-Christian world. His greatest ally is Israel. And I think the vast majority of South Africans are Judeo-Christian and probably supportive of Trump and Israel, the vast majority.

So they're not coming back to you and saying, oh, why are you doing these bad things about our country? Why are you telling the Americans that we are a bad place?

No, I mean, listen, do I ever read the comments on social media?

No.

Because the problem with the comments is you make a speech, you've got 900, we've got 1,000 people in the room, 999 are clapping, going, great, well done. And the one guy sitting in the front row in the middle is going, thumbs down. That's all you remember. You know, that's how the, you know, you're mentally wired. I, I think the vast majority of people are very supportive and the only guy that's got wound up is Penn. You know, he, when I was on the DJ Spoo Show, it was quite an interesting show to watch. I basically schooled Penn because he has been, you know, oh, you know, you're Dave Rubin, the original one, the 10-minute one. He triggered me. I said, what? Actually triggered you on the show. He had, he couldn't answer it. You know, he's all over the place. And he and DJ Spoo said to me, there is no genocide of farmers in South Africa. You need to tell the Americans that. And I said, well, there's no extermination. I'm happy to say that there's no extermination of people. I agree with that. I'm happy to say it on condition that you two shake my hand and you denounce Julius Malema and his kill the boer, um, speech and songs. They wouldn't shake my hand. They were too scared to shake my hand. So other than that, you know, I think broadly people support what I say. Broadly.

Yeah, that's quite scary because if you listen to Neil de Beer over the weekend, he's saying that we're becoming increasingly like Colombia, uh, where, uh, hits are happening all the time. And I don't want to go there as far as you're concerned. I just hope that you do. Look after yourself, Rob. But on to Gayton McKenzie and the most recent development there, Liam Jacobs, or Jacobs, who was a rising star in the DA, a bit of a social media star already, and he's— he must be only in his 20s, and he's now jumped away from the DA towards the Patriotic Alliance, which has made very— well, it's it's made waves all over the place. How are you reading it?

So I, I noticed Liam about 6 months ago and I went, wow, this guy's got potential. And I asked for his contact details and I've just, I haven't met him face to face, but I've been in contact saying very impressed, keep it up, hugely, you know, superb. My view is the DA and the Patriotic Alliance need to come together as one party. You know, if you look at their manifestos, of the 10 manifesto issues, 7 of them are identical. Identical, and they disagree on the margin. You know, the Patriotic Alliance are much tougher on illegal immigrants. They want to get rid of them all, chuck them out. Whereas the DA is kind of soft on that front. The Patriotic Alliance is way stronger in support for Israel. You know, John Steenhuisen did that pathetic, let's see what the courts say nonsense, which was rubbish. Um, the Patriotic Alliance believes in the death penalty. The DA probably doesn't, but otherwise the main 7 elements of PA and DA manifestos are the same. They're both Judeo-Christian, free market, rule of law, you know, pro-West. They need to come together and stop fighting and understand that, you know, the DA believes that the Patriotic Alliance is a kind of ANC Trojan horse, but they do that because they are head to head At the municipal level in the Western Cape and those sort of areas, the only threat the DA actually has is the PA in the Western Cape, not the ANC and not MK. So they've been badmouthing each other. I mean, nonstop, which is pathetic. I think they need to actually get together and work it out together. So for Liam to jump ship, you know, he probably saw more promotion opportunity. I mean, the Patriotic Alliance has no bench. I've always said to Gaten, you know, if you get into a position of power, who would your Minister of Finance, Minister of Justice, Minister of the Military be? And he goes, well, I don't, probably don't have those people in my party. I'll choose the best people in South Africa for those roles. And I've always liked that answer. You know, you wouldn't just have people from the PA, get the best people from all walks of life, all parties to fill those gaps. And Liam has huge potential in this country. In politics, he probably has more potential in the PA currently than in the DA. And, and it's, it's all, that's all it is. That's all it is. He's got a big role to play in this country.

Career choice.

Career choice. No more than that.

And how would, what would Geithen have offered him?

He might become a member of parliament. He might become a, uh, you know, the, the Helen Ziller of the Patriotic Alliance. He might be that kind of important chief operating officer of the Patriotic Alliance role, but I think he's very good in the front line. I think, I would, I think he'd be a superb member of parliament for the PA. He's unafraid. He tells it like it is. He's, you know, he's really is a, let's, he tackles corruption. He tackles evil. He's on the side of good, no question.

Talking about on the side of good, I had a fascinating chat yesterday to Dr. Iraj Abedian, who is Iranian and spent his first 20-odd years there and then came to South Africa. And I listened to it. He's quite a polymath, you know. He's an entrepreneur. He was the chief economist at Standard Bank. He was very close to the ANC for a long period of time, helping with policy during the good time, I guess you could call it. He's done so much. And most of all, though, the most passionate thing that he has is Iran and the way that he explained what's going on in Iran. Maybe the thing that stayed most with me is that the regime, they know by their own admission, say they are only supported by 15% of the people. Other estimates have it at between 7 and 10, I think he said. What is your reading of what's going on? Well, first of all, the interpretation that Iraj has for those who haven't watched that conversation, perhaps that you can tell them whether they should. And then secondly, what's going on right now in Iran stroke, well, in the Middle East.

So I'm following the Israel-Iran war closely, almost by the hour. And I've been reading and studying and of one of the very best analyses, one of the very best analyses I've heard. Worldwide is from Iraj on Biz News yesterday. I've actually sent it to everyone saying this is a must listen, a must watch. You know, I met Iraj at your kind introduction and he is quite extraordinary. If you ever want to understand Iran, the history, where it is today, potentially the options of where it's going, that's the interview with Biz News. It's phenomenal. I, here's my read on it. I think America needs to go all in. If there ever was an opportunity, one for Israel to attack and knock out Iran's nuclear ability, and in some ways industrial ability, but also to assassinate some of the top people, they picked the perfect time. And maybe it was one minute to midnight, but to finish the job, America needs to go all in with Israel and close off that final, um, I think it's Fordenuse or something, uh, nuclear plant, which is a half a kilometer down and they can only take it out with American 30,000 pound bombs or those giant bombs that go down and remove that nuclear ability. And they need to do it because I think unfortunately it's in Russia and China's interest to have America get stuck into Iran. And that's what worries Trump. And says, you know, if we get stuck in, what's it going to cause? Step 1, denuclearize Iran, crucial, essential, and leonel, for whatever it takes. But secondly, the big opportunity is regime change. Since 1979, Iran has been run by an evil theocratic organization that puts women as second class, you know, institutes the evil of Islam. Really radical Islam is coming out of Iran, affecting all their local countries, arming proxies. And in the mandate of the, um, of Iran, of Islamic Iran is the destruction of Israel in their mandate. Every day people are singing it and shouting it and chanting it. And that needs to end. Persia needs to be free. Free Persia. I think these, still these stupid free Palestine stickers on people's people's cars. Free Persia. That's what we need. And let's get behind that. So it's going to remove another ally of the ANC's Iran, which is a good thing. Um, you know, Milady Pandor must be quaking in her giant boots. Um, let's see.

And Ronald Lamola, the, uh, our foreign minister, his reaction?

He's just an idiot. Another idiot. You know, these are— they, the ANC, are Iran proxies. End of story.

Yeah, he might be a little out of his depth, but I guess the problem—

much like other ANC ministers.

The problem is that Africa as a whole is not going through a very good run at the moment. I grew up, well, not directly with, but competing on the sports fields with Mark Bristow, who has gone through— he's from Eskort, I'm from Newcastle. He's gone through to become the leading CEO in the world, number one in the world mining.

He's number one mining guy in the world.

And Mark is, is at the moment getting a very close look at the realities of mining in Africa. He's got a gold mine in Mali. Very good. And the Malian government has, after a coup in 2020, so they got rid of the elected government. These new guys came in, they decided they want the mine, so they've just bumped up the nation's share from 20% to 35% unilaterally. Bristow says that's not going to work that way, and now they have literally, um, taken over the, the running of the mine after he'd stopped it. This cannot be sending a good message to anybody anywhere in the world when you consider— forget, you know, forget mining, which takes a— is a long-term investment. That's must be gone now, but anything, anyone else who's looking to invest in parts of Africa which are unstable, and I guess South Africa sadly would be rapidly getting into that category.

Why would anyone invest in South Africa with a law called expropriation without compensation? Anyone putting aside the lunatic Greta Matush's mining charter, which has chased $20 to $30 billion away from South Africa to other mining destinations. And then you have this problem in Mali, you know, a government takeover of a mine, basically expropriation without compensation in South Africa, an invasion of, you know, Mark Bristow's mining operations in Mali by the Malian government. You know, Africa, it's not even the continent of the future. You know, we always used to joke that Brazil was the country of the future and always would be, which was a joke. Africa's just going backwards nonstop, and I feel sorry for the countries that are progressing. Zambia, Rwanda, Botswana, you know, um, maybe Ghana, Sierra Leone, Senegal. There are countries that are Kenya that are progressing and they get tarred with the same brush of what's happening in South Africa with our moronic ANC and their policies. And Mali, what a disaster. It's, you know, why bother in a way? Like, might as well go and— might as well all go and live in America and focus on investing in America, you know. So what would—

how would capitalists around the world, given that Barrick is the biggest mining, gold mining company on Earth, this is an important asset, I think it's their second biggest mine on Earth, how would capitalists in various parts of the Western world and even Japan and so on be viewing this and would there be any consequences for South Africa from what's happening in Mali right now?

No, it'll just incentivize the ANC to push forward EWC. They'll be going, they'll be thinking, the ANC will be thinking, good for Mali. They will. They won't be thinking this scares away foreign direct investment because they don't care. The ANC just wants to break and steal. I've said it a thousand times. It's true. They'll be thinking, wow, this is a good move. Maybe we should consider it. Problem is the army's too useless to do anything. So it's one advantage.

BEE, the doubling down on BEE that we are now seeing at the ANC. I suppose none of it surprises you, but, but again, consequences.

It's disastrous. Our country is stagnating economically. Stagnating. Do you remember the original budget? Enoch's disastrous failed budget 1.0. What did he have there as economic growth? 1.8%. And each time the budget came out, down, came out, it was lowered. We're now at, I don't know, 0.5%. I think we're at zero. We're at 0% growth, complete stagnation. And the GNU says nothing about economic growth. They don't even know how to do it. Okay. So, you know, why we bother. I'm so negative on South Africa, right?

Right now.

You know, we are going nowhere, nowhere, nowhere, nowhere. The Gnu's going sideways, the economy's falling apart. I mean, what is the point? You know, and I'm tired of standing up and saying the same thing all over again. Funnily enough, I read a fantastic book which Fett, you bear gagged me. Can you read that? 1989, Don Caldwell, South Africa, the New Revolution. Just guys, pick up this book and read the contents. Okay. Um, pick chapter 10, little summary. The fruits of privatization, keeping land, housing, education, and industry in the hands of the state is both bad economics and bad politics. Pretoria could win a lot of friends by boldly privatizing as part of a free market revolution. I mean, it's You know, this book, just read the content. It's 1989. If you could just reprint the book today and it's relevant. So I'm getting frustrated. I'm getting frustrated by where the economy is, where it's not going, by the GNU. You know, look at the National Dialogue. It's a great example of where South Africa is. You've got 2030. Nodding dogs who've accepted to be on the National Dialogue and nothing's gonna come out of it. 700 million rand's gonna be spent and nothing's gonna come out of it. I saw Siya Kolisi the other day at rugby on Saturday, kids rugby. I walked up to him, said, Siya, on this National Dialogue, just say two words and keep repeating them. Economic growth. Economic growth. What are they gonna tell us at the National Dialogue that we don't know already? We know what the problems are. No growth, unemployment, crime, no service delivery, ANC corruption. We know it all. It's sitting over here. We know how to fix it. Privatize state-owned enterprises, you know, deregulate, um, deracialize the economy, get rid of BE, get rid of EWC, encourage foreign direct investment. Problem, solution. But what does Cyril do? Pathetic, stupid, spineless Cyril. He forms another committee, another commission for 700 million rand. You know what I mean? Robbie Brozen, he's a proper business guy. What's he doing on there? He should have just said, no, this is a waste of time. Bobby Godsell. I mean, come on, Bobby, you're better than this. And then they got a whole bunch of lefties and other useless people. It's pathetic. I wouldn't go near a national dialogue or any of Cyril's commissions and committees. What the hell are they going to tell us? What are they going to do?

Interesting part about that, which has only recently surfaced, is that it's going to cost R700 million, and that's not an insignificant amount of money. I wonder if those who've— I wonder if those who— people like Bobby Godsell, who I admire greatly, and Robbie Brozen, who I've known forever, if they know that they're part of a R700 million talk shop project, if if they would remain a part of it, or if they'd have the backbone to say, oh no, didn't realize this. Sorry, I'm out.

I would walk off that thing if I was part of it immediately. Do you know what is that other commission or committee that was founded 3, 4 months ago by Cyril, like 30 people and had that nasty leftist woman on it? Arelic, we spoke about it. What is that? Where are the results of that? And where are the results of the Sonderkommission? Okay. I wrote down some notes. Let's just remind ourselves the other Cyril Commission, Sonderkommission, took 4 years, over 300 witnesses, 3,171 summonses, 8.6 million pages, 1 billion rand of taxpayer money, and 1,438 ANC cronies and cadres named and shamed. And zero accountability. Nothing happened. What is Cyril's solution to anything? Form a committee, form a commission, put in the names of the good and the great, all usually kind of pathetic lefties, and nothing happens. That's about, that's about as good as South Africa can get where nothing happens. We are stagnating into hell. I don't know why any of us bother. And on that note, And on that note, I'm tired of saying the same thing over and over again, and no one's listening. I mean, the tribesmen are listening, the man and the woman on the street are listening, but I am tired of doing this public speaking in South Africa. Others need to stand up, you know. I'm not giving up on South Africa because I love this place, but I'm just tired of being repetitive. And my wife listens to all my utterances and she says, you're becoming repetitive. And I am, I've, I've hit the wall with this damn country and with nobody actually progressing, you know, it's frustrating, Alec.

But remember the, um, response from the banker to the guy in, uh, Hemingway's The Sun Also Rises when he said, how does a man go bankrupt? Gradually, then suddenly, and change happens like that. The time to abandon is not when the winning post is in sight. And if you consider it from that perspective, maybe you'll realize that the, the, the energy that you're investing in this project— and it is a project not of regime change, but a project of opening eyes. And I think that— I know you, you laugh at me sometimes when, when I tell you I'm a liberal, but The biggest thing of liberals that we believe as liberal thinkers is that we want to open people's eyes and let them make their own calls. And I do believe whatever else people say about Rob Hersoff, the one thing nobody can dispute is that you have opened many, many, many eyes. And for that, you're playing a role, Rob, that is indispensable. So I get it, you get bedorned. I can tell you the work I've been doing for more than 40 years, I get bedawned and offed often. But fortunately, I know that I don't know anything, and I don't know what's happening in the background. But I can see that there has been massive progress in South Africa since you stood up at that BizNews conference 4 years ago. Massive. And I do attribute a lot of that to your ability to have the backbone and say the things that nobody else wanted to say.

Let me just finish off, because I'm going to take a big break from public speaking in South Africa. For now. I'm just letting you know on this business show.

Okay. So, so are you telling me in 2 weeks' time? No, 2 weeks' time, no conversation. 2 weeks.

Sadly not. I'm coming to talk in September. I'll do the wrap-up of the conference. 100%. But I'm taking a full-on break now. I'm sorry, tribesmen, but others need to stand up now. And when they do stand up, they need to tell it like it is, like Neil de Beer does, like Neil de Beer does.

He doesn't pull his punches. He's not taking a break, Rob.

R.W. Johnson, no. They stand up and they tell it like it is. They don't give a kind of, oh, we should all work together and blah, blah, blah nonsense. Those presidential speeches that are written by the PR agents. R.W. Johnson, bang, hard hitting. Neil de Beer, hard hitting.

Rob Hersov, hard hitting. But now we're taking, we're taking you out of the, uh, out of the, for a while. Look, everybody deserves a break and I think you are. You, from time to time, you need to take a catch your breath. So we won't be talking to you in 2 weeks, but it's been, it's always been great talking with you, and I'm sure you'll be back. And next time we will once again have the capitalist activist giving us a different perspective to the one that is being propagated so freely, it appears, everywhere in South Africa. Rob Hirschhoff has checking out, checking out, and I'm Alec Hogg from BizNews.