Busting Free From Breast Implant Illness with Dr. Amanda Savage Brown

Thanks for joining us today. This is Dr. Whitfield, the breast implant illness expert. And today I'm happy to be joined by Candace Borley, our breast implant illness patient Advocate, and by Dr. Amanda Savage Brown, the author of Busting Free. Good morning, everyone.

Good morning.

Good morning. I'm so excited to talk to you two. Such a good team.

Well, Dr. Brown, we have your book in our office.

Thank you.

We give it away to folks, as you know, and we'd love to transport you to Austin. You would have tremendous value to our clinic and our patients. We know that you're there most of the time because when I look to my left or my right in my exam rooms, your. Your book is there. So by all means, please let us know why you chose to right Busting Free.

Well, first, thank you for having it there and sharing it with your patients. I also was a patient in 2018, so that's obviously where the initial inspiration came. You know, I have a background as a public health scientist, as a geneticist, and I'm also a licensed psychotherapist. And so when I was going through my explant journey, I was seeing this area of women's health through those eyes. I view this as a public health issue. There's millions and millions of women that have breast implants, and now we know more than we did before. There's unmet needs, inner needs, psychosocial needs. There's the financial considerations about whenever, you know, it's time to take them out. How do you pay for that, especially if you're taking them out because of something related to health. So when I went through my journey, I just saw these, like I said, overlooked needs. There's a lot of focus and wonderful, amazing support on the surgical consideration. And I noticed, even for myself, I consider myself to have like Jedi level self acceptance skills and inner skills and emotion regulation skills. But even for myself, as I was moving toward explant, you know, the volume kind of got turned up on some old, deeply held beliefs that are not just in my mind, they're in, you know, most people's minds. And so I thought, if I'm going through this, what's happening to other women? And I connected, as many of us do, you know, through social media groups, and I saw that really it's a very common thing for women to struggle with, you know, thoughts, feelings, the social stuff. And, you know, my collection of struggles may be different than Candace's, may be different than the next patient that you see, but they are nonetheless. So that's why I wrote Busting free was to bring forward and evidence based approach. You know, I just translated all the evidence based approaches that I use in my psychotherapy practice. I merged it with this really powerful change model and I delivered that to women as a guide really, to be sure to address the inner stuff. It's great to practice, prepare surgically and also just prepare yourself, your heart and your mind as well. So that's what my inspiration was.

Well, we know a preparation like that for surgery certainly will help outcomes because surgery is obviously very routine for me. Yeah, I've done it since 1996. So when people come in and ask if I'm prepared for surgery, to me, directed to me, I'm like, yeah, I'm fine. That question is not for me, it's for them. Yeah, they need to be prepared for surgery. You know, we've read your book and many aspects of it are lightning. And you know, the, the things that you talk about in terms of what is this belief set derived from? So do you want to start there and how does that start, in your opinion?

Yeah, that's actually my. One of my most favorite things in the world to talk about. And you know, this is not to indict anyone or point fingers at any of us. That happens a lot in this space where there's, you know, talking about men or surgeons or this or that. And really we're all in this together. You know, all of us learn when we're young, we just learn women have breasts. That's just part of being alive. You just learn that. And there's behind the scenes, things that take place in the human mind. Every single human mind does the same things where once it's kind of got hobbies, so once it learns women have breasts, it just likes to see relationships in the opposite direction. So then it learns breasts are womanly. And so that's just the way our minds work. And as you grow up in a society where breasts are feminine icons or where they hold a lot of meaning, then your mind starts learning things like bigger breasts are better. So then it sees that relationship in reverse and it learns that smaller breasts maybe aren't as good. And this, it moves into this giant network of beliefs and it can be huge in our mind. And it doesn't just do this with breasts, it does it with everything. But before you know it, without anyone sitting you down and teaching you these things you've just learned, I call it the breast rulebook. So you've learned that the size and shape of your breasts matters. It means something. And some people will hold and grip to that rulebook more tightly. And again, that's not an indictment. That doesn't mean that you're vain. It just means you're human and that you really care about belonging. So if you happen to develop with tuberous breasts, your mind says, hey, that's not the ideal shape. This maybe threatens me, and it wants to fix that for you. If your breasts develop asymmetrically, it'll do the same thing. And maybe you develop in a way that you don't really think a lot about your breasts, and you just kind of go through life. Well, if you gain weight, lose weight, get pregnant, nurse, if you get breast cancer, that's when your breast rulebook comes forward. It's when something has changed, Your life has evolved, something has happened where suddenly you're realizing, hey, now I don't measure up. You know, this maybe is threatening to me. So that's where that breast rule book is. We all hold it. Everybody does. Unless you grow up in a society where, you know, breasts don't hold that meaning. And I think it's really important for people to read that. That's chapter one, and I made it chapter one on purpose because I really wanted. Yeah, I really wanted everybody to, like, get right into that. And the reason is because I really want to normalize this. There's. You know, I think it's enough with finger pointing. I think it's enough with all of that and to just say, listen individually, this is normal. It's just a measure of being a social creature, and we care about the things that are around us and how we measure up. And men's minds hold the breast rule book, too. So, you know, we can't vilify anyone for having that. Surgeon's minds hold it, too. Everybody's does. If you're aware of it and you want to react differently to its content, you can learn how to do that. And that's, I think, really what the whole thing is about, is if you don't want to be pushed around by that content, you can. There's very concrete things you can do so that you're independent of it. You're liberated from it. That's why I called it busting free. It was like a play on words.

So is Candace going to share her breast rule book? That's what I'm waiting on.

Yeah. Well, yes. I mean, mine started in middle school, actually. I. So I grew up. My father is a commercial photographer, and so we always had books in our house of women who are naked, because that's A lot of black and white photos, and none of them had breasts. They were all had very, very small breasts and no breasts. So to me, that was beautif beautiful. That was normal. And then I was a ballerina for 12 years. I danced professionally, and that was normal in the tribe and the group of what I was seeing, it was fine to have no breasts to very little breasts. And then I went to middle school, and suddenly it was not okay. And I was bullied by girls more so than boys. And so the most, like, traumatic thing that happened to me is I was changing in the girls locker room in sixth grade, and all these girls circled around me, and they said, if you didn't have feet, would you wear socks? And I'm standing there completely confused, like, no, wait, what? And they said, then why are you wearing a bra? And then they all laughed and pointed and did you know? And I was just like, horrified. And so then I was like, am I not supposed to wear a bra? Am I supposed. So I was suddenly not fitting in with my peers and my tribe and the pack. So obviously something's wrong with me. So that's where my book started. And that continued my entire, you know, middle school and high school, you know, to the point that I was then wearing padded bras and, you know, doing everything that I could. And then eventually, when I was about 17 or 18, I. I was very late bloomer. I finally developed and I got married very young. And then it wasn't an issue. Breasts weren't an issue to me anymore. I was fine. I had someone who was attracted to me and I fit in again. And then after I breastfed two children, I was back to being completely flat. And then I was like, oh, no, I'm in danger. I know I didn't fit into the group and the tribe and the pack when this happened before. And now what if my husband feels that way and he's not telling me? Or what if other girls think are going to think that about me? And so that's what led me to get breast implants.

You're making such a good point. And because this is the way that the human mind works with language, cognition, it took your memories, it took those lived experiences, and it added it to your personal breast rule book. So yours is different than mine, right? And that's what happens is, you know, we've got this kind of core content, but then depending on how your life rolls out, you know, when we have a memory like you're describing, and I just want to go back and hug little 11 year old you, you know, because when you get a memory like that, your mind's job, one of its primary jobs, is to keep you safe. Right. And so when that happened to you, your mind, a part of your mind, like kind of went on patrol and it was like, I don't want to have that pain again. And that's where, you know, the padded bras come in and that's, you know, all that stuff. And you know, once you have the breast development later on, that part of your mind was like, okay, we've narrowed the gap. We're not threatened.

Right.

You know, and I appreciate you sharing that because, you know, I do this work all day with women from all walks of life and I've yet to encounter any two women that have the same, you know, breast rule book. We've got the core content, but what ultimately leads us to breast implants is typically kind of a unique experience for each of us.

Yes. And I do hear, you know, the women that I, that I work with and speak. Speak to through my Instagram channel and stuff, a lot of women experience that bullying. They all had different, you know, ways and things that led them eventually to, to getting implants. But it's very interesting to me looking back that it was from other girls that, you know, that, that they already had that rule book and that, you know, to look at someone and go, oh, you don't fit in and make sure that, you know that because you don't have breasts. It's very interesting because a lot of women carry that same trauma who were not, you know, well endowed as a.

Child, so, or asymmetric or, you know, any of that stuff. And it, the wounds do often start more, you know, from other girls. You know, that is definitely true if, if that was a younger age experience that you have. And I think that just goes to show another very normal human behavior, which is, you know, if I can point out how you don't measure up, then it gets me a little safer. Right. You know, who knows, maybe you were just a super cute little sixth grader, you know, or seventh grader, and maybe those girls were like, she's really cute, so we need to like knock her down a peg or two so we're safer. You know, there's just so many complex, very normal things that go on and, you know, it leaves us with this. It's like a little like a shadow that kind of follows us, is in the background. You know, I say it pushes us around on the inside and sometimes we just don't even realize it.

Right.

Well, certainly we've encountered a number of. I would consider them very cliche plastic surgeon rulebooks in my practice, taking care of patients who are going through the process of explanting. Meaning that the cliche bigger is better is thrown around routinely in my practice. And I think it's. I mean, certainly what Candace is describing is very dark. To me, that kind of behavior is awful, to be honest. And, you know, nobody can pick their parents. I always joke about. But that's something that's taught. That's certainly not an inherent behavior to say.

Yeah. And to your point about the plastic surgeon breast rulebook, you know, that's why so many women report waking up with implants that were much larger than they had agreed to, you know, and they are told, well, I just, I know you're going to come back. I know you're going to regret it. I know you're going to want them bigger, you know, and that makes no sense.

I. It's something I've asked him often about because I wanted to understand, because I would say, oh, it's. It's 80% of the women I talked to who said they were never supposed to be that big, including myself. And then what ends up happening is you've got the same issue. They're trying to cover them up because they're bigger than they were ever supposed to be. They never wanted to feel. They, you know, there's this mindset that there's this stereotype behind women with breast implants. But I. There is no stereotype. There's. We. We, you know, see women who are little church ladies. We see every race, every. Every religious background. There is no stereotype. We all were led for whatever our reason was, whatever our, you know, breast playbook reason was. They're. They're all there. And, and they all say they were never supposed to be this big. I mean, I, like, I think I can count on one hand the ones who were like, no, I wanted them big or they didn't the size that I wanted, which a lot of times is like, you know, just a very tiny implant. So it's just, It's. It's not the norm. And I wanted to know why. Why does this keep happening?

I can shed a little light on that. So the playbook, as we're describing, is different. So if the playbook says in the plastic surgeon's head, measure, and Candace sees me do this a lot, measure the width of the base diameter of the implant that's in place relative to the breast tissue. And if you have somebody who's coming in for augmentation. Obviously, that's the principal measurement. It's the base width. Width, that should be the diameter with which you base your judgment on what is practical for that patient's frame. That's basically. That's 90% of the decision making. Now, that's mostly in younger patients where there's very little skin stretch, maybe very little tissue. So, of course, it would make sense that they would be getting a smaller implant. When you have someone who comes who, like you referred to and Candace alluded to, has nurse children, that's very different. So that's what should be a easier solution in many instances, because now you absolutely know the breast width and you have more skin stretch. So then it becomes the variable is how much skin stretch is there. Does the skin stretch demand a mastopexy, which is a lift procedure at the same time? And so what you will get based on training, comfort level, repetition, whatever variables you describe on the plastic surgeon side, and I'll give you my perspective, people are extremely uncomfortable with doing that lift implant placement at the same time and getting the result to fit the expectation for that patient's rule book.

So it's easier to just put a larger implant in.

Right. And Candace has seen this a lot in the practice where they said, oh, they just filled it up well, so that's a judgment error because you can't judge how much to fill something up unless you have the photo when they were engorged or some level of understanding of what that was, because that's what will fill up the. If you follow, that's what will fill up the breast completely. Right. So it's. That's a judgment issue on the plastic surgeon side, where this is a much easier step. If I add more volume, then I'm not creating another incision. I'm not causing another problem. Easier to heal. That's the solution. So that's one I was taught by an excellent plastic surgeon. He's passed away, but I could do a single stage lift and augmentation because of how I was taught. And then you, you obviously, through experience and, you know, adaptation, you know, there's this. How do you want to say? Goes back to why I have my rule book. I was never afraid to tell somebody no. And I was never afraid to change how I did something to make it better than what I was taught. I almost practiced nothing. I was taught because everything changes.

Well, you know, and you're mentioning, you know, that's actually really the goal of going through all of the chapters of busting free. It's to give you what's called psychological flexibility. So just like yoga gives your body flexibility, there's things you can do inwardly mentally that gives you psychological flexibility. And what you were just describing for yourself as somebody who's able to have learned something, modify it, adapt it, even let it go, that's just psychological flexibility, you know, and if I'm going to have a surgeon doing something to my body, I want a surgeon like you that's going to have the psychological flexibility and isn't going to rigidly adhere to something that doesn't work for my body.

You know, it's a problem, though. It's. I can tell you when this, to me, changed some surgery. And these are. Obviously, we see people of different genres, but the day the 80 hour work week ended. I don't know if anybody knows what the 80 hour work week is, but up until 2002, there were no work restrictions that I trained under and that had existed from the beginning of medical training. Something happened in New York and the Bell Commission was established to look into what was an error made by somebody who was tired in training. And that was the blame. And so the day I finished surgery training, so from 1996 to 2002, I worked every other night or every third night on call and worked the next day. And that was. That was training. The first person that I ever worked for when I started training, the chief resident, great guy, took me aside and said, hey, I'm going to try to give you a day off this month if I can. And I was like, all right, that sounds awesome, right? Nowadays that would be like, met with, you know, news stories and, you know, television. That was just the case. So, you know, what didn't happen after that in 2002. So they changed how much you could work. They didn't adapt the training model to support that change. So they didn't lengthen training. So what does that give you less experience?

Yeah, not nearly as much experience.

So I always say I won't go see anybody trained after 2002.

But that's why, yeah, my implant surgeon was a much older man, pretty pretty well revered in the Atlanta community. And I mean, he just was like, you're too tiny. Your rib cage is so little. He was like an I. He was like, I will not do augmentations where the implants are extending beyond the rib cage, you know, and he's like, so we're very limited in what we're going to be able to do here. And they were super close together. But I Always. I mean, that's the kind of surgeon that I wanted, was somebody that I wasn't going for, like what Candace was talking about. I didn't want to end up one of those women that was self conscious in the opposite direction. You know, I ended up being that way anyway, you know, because as my life evolved, I, you know, I just didn't feel it just wasn't a good fit for me to have something on my body that was just so obviously not me, you know.

Well, we, we see that. I mean, we hear that so often, which is, it just, it doesn't feel like a part of me. I feel like I have something foreign in my body. We've had, we've had patients come in as young as 22 years old and have been like, I feel claustrophobic in my own body because they don't feel like they're a part of me. And, and some of these things are very, you know, it's, we see a lot of like, mothers who paid for their daughters to have these surgeries done. And then they don't understand why. Why would you not want to have these? Like, this is. I'm helping you be a part of society the way you should be. And you know, so it's, it's just very interesting that there's so many different, you know, societal and even family pressures or, you know, from the, from a spouse. We have a lot of women who are just so incredibly sick, but they are so scared to have their implants removed because they say, well, my husband is a boob guy. My husband, you know, has said, you know, what are you going to do to fix these? Because I'm not going to be attracted to you flat out. And so that's something that's very, you know, difficult to walk a woman through because I want to go talk to their husbands, but I can't do that.

So. Yeah.

What do you, like, how do you, how do you counsel someone that is dealing with, with something like that?

Yeah, I mean, we, we could and perhaps should do a whole nother episode on, you know, partner considerations. It, you know, of course it's going to absolutely depend on the context of, of that particular partnership, you know, and is, is she happy? Is it a relationship that she wants to maintain? Is it a relationship that, you know, where she's able to see and, and validate and understand that breasts matter to him too? Right. Remember, everybody learns that stuff and they hold a lot of symbolic meaning. And so it really depends, you know, I'm only ever working with that person. I have had a couple of people say, can we do a joint session with my partner? You know, and. And that's wonderful because then you can move through that. There's a grief and loss process for that person too. Right. If breasts really matter and are, you know, super aesthetically pleasing or really arousing and you're explanting, you know, it's just a matter of connecting around it, communicating around it and honoring that. That's a loss, you know, and this is another place where a lot of judgment can come up in this area where, you know, and I've seen some unhelpful advice being given to women to, you know, point out to him, you know, what if you said this or that and, you know, all this stuff? It. To me, it's. It's helping the partner through that loss and then also putting out boundaries, you know.

Right.

The bottom line is like, if. If you need to do that for your health, for your comfort, to align your evolving values, maybe you're living organically, you don't want them in your body anymore. Whatever it is, you know, it's being able to tell your partner, I see this loss for you, I can validate that loss for you. Let's pick some cute little bras, you know, and. And this is what I. I'm not going to have said to me. And this is what, you know, I'm not. I don't want a future. I call it T shirt sex in the dark. You know, that's not how I want to live my life. So depending on how complex it is, you know, it is probably a conversation to have with a therapist, a couple's therapist, you know, and really work through that, you know, And I've seen lots of partnerships break up over this. I really have. I have seen women, you know, I don't know if my practice is enriched for this experience, but I have seen women who explanted. It did not go well for that partnership. And as a result, they re implanted and again started feeling pretty physically horrible, you know, and then there was also that resentment and that feeling of, I'm not enough. What's best for me isn't your priority. Right. And so that's a whole nother mess. But it's a very, very. It's a sensitive, complex issue where both people need to be able to talk through the experience to a point. And then eventually, you know, she's.

Yeah, I'm always like, if someone loves you, they know how sick you've been, then this should be the Priority. But what has been really amazing is when those partners will come in with him into the office and Dr. Rob is able to speak with them, explain to them the reasons why and what is going on and what he's. A lot have come around to be like, okay, no, I don't want them to get worse. I don't want them to continue to feel like this. So I found that a male to male and a doctor explaining to them is very helpful in a lot of these situations.

Yeah, I imagine that it definitely goes.

To the lack of understanding of the problem though. So I've dealt with this because most of my background is oncologic. So this is not a new problem. Breast cancer poses the same complicated set of issues. So it's nothing new. And it was always better to have engagement from the beginning of the process with the spouse involved. Unfortunately, in times of cancer diagnoses, the appointments can come fast and furious and to a point where, you know, for lack of a better euphemism, I'm the last person in that line, last provider to speak with. Not the most important, but I always like to think I was important in that process. But nonetheless, there is better engagement if a full explanation can be given in real time so that each person can take their information and based on our discussion, you know, run it back against their playbook, if you will. But it's always better if the, you know, the partner or the spouse is, is with the client at the time that I have to explain it because I have a very. Well, the approach will definitely be different. I don't tolerate any nonsense. Just don't. So I've told people like, you need to get a different partner. I have no problem doing that. It's just, you know, that's what's best for you in your personal journey, whether it's, you know, this is a really a health journey, but if you got to care for kids and in the majority instances that's going to be the mom caring for the kids. So like, I do always try to take those things into consideration. Not to be difficult or mean, but that's just the nature of what's going on.

Yeah, yeah. And sometimes it really helps for somebody to hear something like that from a person that's playing your role. You know, an impartial, you know, medical provider who can see something like that from the outside. It's a perspective giving thing. You know, when you're in the middle of it and it's so complex, you can do all that rationalizing, excuse making and all of that. And, you know, it is just, for some, it's really just a litmus test, you know, if. If this person is really being loving to you or not, you know.

Yeah, yeah, it's definitely complicated. The lack of clarity around it makes it worse. Like cancer diagnoses are cancer diagnoses. So that's a more, you know, definitive, well worked out, explained. And this is somewhat a moving target. And that makes it harder for the. I mean, I see the. The look in the partner's eyes when this is being explained, and there's a little bit. It's like, is this the real thing? Are you serious? You know, because they've went through multiple providers and maybe at that point spent thousands of dollars and gotten the. We'll call it, feedback from that process, which has created more of a rift in the, you know, partnership, if you will. And, you know, then they obviously come to see and discuss this with me. And prior to Candace being there as an advocate for the. The patient, it was just me advocating for the patient, saying, like, in my experience, you know, which is not a small one, this is what I feel is going on. It is very helpful to have a patient advocate reinforce many of those feelings for the client at the same time so that they don't feel alone. Or it's just, you know, me as the, you know, provider, I just provide, you know, context around what is a very complex problem for me in terms of inflammation for them. And. And then how does that play out, you know, for them? What can I do to help them? Short term, long term? And, you know, many of these hardships already have kids. Yes, these are affecting. They're going to affect their kids. And many of them already are affected. And I highlight that to them as well, which is even more like, oh, my God, now there's a whole nother layer. And then that layer creates more guilt. And, you know, it just. It begins more problems. So it's not a simple discussion most of the time for me.

No. And, you know, the other. Another really big differentiation is, you know, my husband did not want me to get breast implants. He never once for one second thought I needed them, encouraged it or anything. So he had spent years loving me without them. But some people partner after they've had breast implants. Their partner's never seen them without breast implants. And that, you know, the partner might feel, well, that's a little bait and switchy, you know what I mean? Like, they just never have seen that person. And so, you know, to your point, giving them context and Helping people see each other's perspectives, you know, and I think just a lot of normalizing and validating is, you know, so to get back to your original question, Candace, just being able to say to somebody, I know this is hard, I know this is disappointing or surprising. And this is something that you're going to need to learn how to open up to it, how to allow it to be there as a partner, you know, and how amazing to have that against the backdrop of a surgeon, you know, validating that there's an inflammation response going on. There's, there's more to this than you're able to see, you know, because you're right. Dr. Rob so many people, by the time they get to the point of explant, a lot of them, their family is burnt out, judgmental, dismissive.

You know, we see that a great.

Deal of time is so stressful to the patient because for her it's that, you know, the, what's the biggest question on all their minds? What if I don't get better? Right? Like, what if I don't get better? And so if you've got a partner that's making this, these, this high stakes game, you know, and you don't feel better, that's a terrifying proposition.

So just for the audience. So let's just address that. So when someone asks me from a client or spouse or partner perspective, is this going to work? Is this going to help? Is that patient going to get better? So my answer is always yes. And that's treating the root cause of inflammation. And so we have a, a very different approach using functional genomics, toxicity testing, food sensitivity testing, really, GI DNA testing and hormone balancing. So I think the problem that we get is it's been piecemeal by different providers who can't fit the round peg in the square hole. And they keep hitting it with a mallet. And then the mallet becomes another medication or an antidepressant or some immunosuppressant, whatever it becomes, because they can't manage what is very fundamental, which is just the inflammation being caused by not only the implants, but maybe someone has, like we do in Texas, have frequently is toxic mold exposure or someone has a very, very bad chemical exposure. If you live in Ohio, you're going to see a lot of problems coming forward. And if you live along that river, just get ready for it, because I don't want to be obnoxious, but breast implant illness is going to become a much bigger problem along that basin, wherever that stuff flows. All you need is one thing to trip your system over its limits. And then you will start experiencing the symptoms that are commonly referred to as breast implant illness, which is ultimately to me just represent inflammation your body can no longer cope with.

Yep. And I so appreciate you saying that because. And I'm going to add, you know, I'll borrow what you just said. I don't mean to be a problem either, but I also see that a lot of women are going along fine with their implants and then they have a trauma in their life.

Right.

So maybe it's not a chemical spill in the environment, but maybe they've gone through a tragic loss, maybe they've lost a loved one. Something, you know, that's really puts a lot of psychological inner stress and the body responds the same way.

It's an extra, we see that where they're like where. And then they thought. For a long time I just thought it was because my mom died and then my dad died and then my husband lost his job and these things. But it's been over a year now and I haven't recovered. Something's wrong. And. But it is some major stress event that I talk about on my, with, with the women I talk with is tipping points. There's a tipping point and it can be from stress, it can be from a chemical exposure, it can be from a toxic mold exposure. But once that happens, it's a runaway train of inflammation. And the driver of that train is the breast implants. And so you have to remove those. But there's a lot of other things now that are, you know, all the way back, all the cars that have to be addressed as well. And so, you know, working with Dr. Rob has been incredible because it took me two years of trying to figure out what those other cars of the train were because I didn't instantly get better. I got, I got substantially better. But there were still other issues going on. And so he's really fine tuned those things. So that, that's why we have just this incredible recovery program.

Yeah, that's why I, you know, if I'm in a position to encourage women to meet with a particular doctor, I always mention Dr. Rob and it's because of that holistic approach. It's because this is a systemic experience, you know, and just explanting, you know, like you said, typically substantial change. Right. But if there's other stuff going on, a woman deserves to have that looked at holistically the way that Dr. Rob does it. Otherwise you end up, you know, I, four years out, I'm doing that Piecemeal stuff that you described, Dr. Rob. And, you know, just got my food sensitivity done and, you know, stuff all over the place. You know, lots of that, to me, is the thing that has been the most surprising. And I just didn't know. I had no idea of how the GI is involved in this. I didn't know, you know, well, if I could go back in time, I would go to you. Like.

Candace figured all of her stuff out by trial and error, and so the audience should know. I started doing explants in 2016, and it was because of a missed. I missed an infection. And so I thought, oh, wow, if I've missed a lot of infections, bad on me. And the patient I mentioned on. On the shows in 2016 was a cancer patient, breast cancer patient.

I'm sorry.

And she put me on a Facebook group 100% after that and said I would do explants. I would do them and block all this stuff. And then I just had people start coming to me. I thought everybody who had fatigue was just infected. And so I would do them. And those who were infected would get better right away. Because once you remove an infected foreign body, if all things being equal, that that allows the body to. Your body will recover.

Yeah.

Now Fast forward to 2023. You can't outrun a bad diet. It's not really hard to have a bad diet in the United States because the food is so bad and you can't pick your parents, so you can't outrun your genetics. So you have a genotype, which is the genes. You have the number of copies and the number of mutations in this, the genes you have. What you can do holistically is not alter the genetics, but alter the phenotype or how it's expressed in you. And with supplementation, Candace circumvented hers. She just was doing it by trial and error. But I do this all the time in the office now to prove a point, not to look like a witch doctor, but I'll give people oral liposomal glutathione to prove that they've had a toxic exposure. Because once again, if you reached your limit, you can't get rid of it anymore through your liver and GI tract. And many of them have chronic constipation trouble or IBS or whatever. There's all sorts of diagnoses that are given, you know, lupus and all this other stuff all the time. But, you know, moving forward, as awareness is raised, our program is going to become, you know, we want everybody to do that up front. So they don't do it on the back end piecemeal. And everybody's super anxious when they finally hear about me or find somebody like me and go see them because they want to do the complicated part for them. What seems to be the most complicated, which is surgery. That's really not the most complicated part of this at all. It's all the other things that go into it through, you know, the 3, 4, 6, 9, 12 month process after that.

I applaud you for saying that, and I totally agree. Because a, the surgery is in your surgeon's hands. It's not a behavior that you have to modify. Right. And modifying behavior is. You know what I mean? So if we're talking about diet, if we're talking about.

That's a bumper sticker.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, for me, that's why this has always felt so interesting, this hyper focus on the surgery. And I'm not to minimize that or anything. You need to choose your surgeon wisely, for sure. And there is so much more to it. You know, I think it's the build up.

It's the build up, though. Like, it's the. I made that decision to go see a surgeon. That's what I, you know, it's such a big deal. Like, I want this done now. And, you know, I'm. I'm constantly having to tap breaks and say, look, you know, I've, you know, yes, we all here in my office, in my clinic, in my space, understand the issue. You won't speak to a team member of mine who says that this is in your head or this doesn't exist, or, you know, you're not in the right place, you need to go find somebody else. We're not going to do this, we're not going to do that. So it's a safe space, but it's still that. That build up to get there. And then I just want to do it now.

Right. Because that lets the human mind feel like it's in control. Right. And so if they've spent months, years with that panic of something I don't understand is going on inside me and feeling hopeless and out of control, when they get the opportunity to do something about it, the human mind is like, let's freaking go, you know, and it. That gives them relief and a sense. Yeah, right. So they want to get it done. And that's another reason that I appreciate your approach and your practice is that it recognizes and honors that there just. There may be a lot more work to do.

There is. I mean, always the Kind of spinning their wheels has pissed them off so much that by the time they get to me and I tell them they need to invest more into this process, they're frustrated by that. They think the investment is the surgery. And that's, quote, unquote, the process to get them to recovery because of a friend. Social media, what mostly social media is interpretation of this problem, which is, you know, I do all my medical searches through Facebook and Instagram and Twitter, and the validation of this problem being one, you know, that's become through social media because there was no scientific evidence. And the, you know, evidence will grow. It's just, you know, there's going to be parties on either side that are not happy about what's published, what evidence comes out. And, you know, the evidence that comes. I just follow data mostly. I. I trust in the process that it'll eventually make sense whether, you know, you can rest assured that no party will be happy by the data.

Right.

So there's. It doesn't, you know, if you're worried about that, you shouldn't participate.

Yeah.

Well, I have to say that for me, the most emotional part of being in the room as a patient advocate and as being someone who has sat on that same table and, you know, bared my soul to a surgeon saying, can you help me? Is when women sit there and they are. They want to say, I think it's my breast implants causing these issues. And it takes every bit of courage and strength for them to say that, because the other doctors, they have said that to have told them, there's no proof of that. You've been on social media too much. That's ridiculous. You need to get therapy. Like, all of these things, they have been gaslit and they have been, in my opinion, just. It's almost like just psychological abuse when someone's saying, hey, I live in this body and I've done this research and I have these symptoms, and this is something that's lining up to not even listen to them. So when they're able to say that. And he goes, yes, absolutely. My BII patients have these things. Most of them break down and are just like. You just see all of this weight comes off of them, and they go, I knew I wasn't crazy.

Yeah.

There is someone who not only believes me, but is collecting data that shows that, yes, there is an issue, and yes, there is a reason. So it's just. I have to hold back tears every time because I just see the absolute fear in. In saying this in front of a surgeon. And then when this person says, yes, absolutely. It's just their world changes in that moment.

It gets back to our wiring, you know, when we're wired for that kind of connection with our group, you know, and to have you there, you know, and probably you do have tears in your eyes, or at least it's obvious to them that you're emotionally engaged and attuned like that. To have him there, you know, speaking his truth in such a validating way, that already starts the healing process, you know, because you're right. By the time a person gets, you know, if it's a BII related explant, by the time they get where they need to be, they've typically accumulated a lot of, like you just said, it's, it's, it can be pretty damaging, you know, what they expect.

Yes.

It's so incredibly unfortunate. And I so wish that we could get to a different place with this, you know, because the people who are suffering are the patients. You know, while there's these, this controversy, while there's these conflicting opinions, you know, I totally agree with you, Dr. Rob, that, you know, we, we will bear this out and the data will be what it will be. And, you know, it's going to be different in just a handful of years because of people like you. I totally trust in all of that. But in the meanwhile, it's the patient that's caught in the crosshairs, you know, and again, she's accumulating all that and she's going to add that into her sense of self, you know, and that creates medical trauma, which does not just go away because she's explanted. I can't tell you how many of my patients say, I don't want anything to do with doctors anymore. I don't want to go to them, I don't want to see them. Right.

Like, I'm glad to hear that, Dr. Rob.

Yeah, I think, and Candice has heard me say this a lot, not to get off topic, but if you spend a lot of time as a surgeon patting yourself on the back for something you did, most of the things that you will get are equated to wrist pain as a sprain, because the minute you think you're doing everything right, something will change. And surgically, adaptation is a big part of, of your process. Now, I would say in general, the, the thing that occurs to me most frequently from the provider side when we hear different stories of how they, the flow is usually go to the gp. GP doesn't know what's going on. Go to the plastic Surgeon plaster and says everything's fine, some blood work gets drawn, something's abnormal, there's a rheumatology referral, there may be an oncology referral, there may be a HEMOC referral, GI referrals, endocrine referrals, all of which no one has really a clue in terms of continuity of care of the patient because that's, that is not the way Western medicine works.

Right.

And so if it doesn't fit a pattern that one recognizes as a provider from training, it's hard to figure out what to do with Amanda or Candace and they're having these inflammatory problems and describe the problems associated with arthritis and especially an autoimmune mediated arthritis like rheumatoid or lupus or something so that you get all these. You know, I feel like when I listen to it, I'm like, man, this is going to go along this way for a long time because there's a severe limitation in the training in physicians and functional genetics. And there's never been good training in nutrition. There's a whole history behind that. You should read the book Metabolical for that. And hormone balancing is a flipping disaster. So if someone can't recognize the pattern of what's going on, why you have inflammation, doesn't examine their diet, doesn't know anything about nutrition to begin with, or doesn't accept that the food could be a problem for your, both your, how you feel and how your digestive system works. And they don't really understand why your hormones are so out of whack. It's almost an unrecoverable situation. Right. So those are just. And then we haven't even talked about the fact that nobody's going to look at do you have some kind of toxin exposure? And based on your hepatic function, which is not really tested, how are you managing that burden? So it's, it becomes a very consistent theme to hear and well, it's, it's plus, I've probably seen over 200 genetic reports of different varieties over the past several years. Recently we have a company, the DNA company out of Toronto we work with who has a very elaborate 100 page report about genomics, specifically immunity and its pathways, vitamin D and methylation and detoxification with glutathione and the antioxidant pathway with superoxide dismutase too. So once again, Candace figured this out on her own trial and error. We do some of this in office just to provide context around what I've, what I'm saying because it does Help them understand a little bit better. If I do a simple glutathione test in the office, and, you know, it's like a validation because they've been to all the people that said there was nothing wrong, and this is a very simple thing to do, which, you know, glutathione is what takes a chemical out of your system, binds it, and then you kick it out your GI tract. If that doesn't work in your body or it's limited, we'll say then that tipping point is reached much sooner, or that PTSD that causes the problem is reached or causes that much sooner, or the cortisol bounce that happens with a. A big life event and adrenal suppression that follows. All tips that, you know, we didn't go into that, but that's much of what your clients are describing to you. Those, those sentinel events in life, you know, they affect all of us, you know.

Yeah.

So that is become like, you know, it's just an adaptation now. It's a pattern I recognize, and it's very simple to listen to and recognize now. But, you know, that's 3000 consults and 1200 explants. Yeah, that's a lot of, you know, doctors used to tell the older doctors, the ones who taught us would say, you have to be able to recognize sick rob in order to be a good doctor. That may be 10,000 patients.

Yeah.

So those, you know, I'm not even close to 10,000. And I always say that, you know, I learned things about this all the time. I do feel I have it to a point now where I recognize it and routinely can action plan it all the time.

And I appreciate everything you're saying so much. I wish I could put a megaphone to you and get that out there, because even within the breast implant illness community, there are some pretty unhelpful positions that can be taken that, you know, just like we are aware that there can be medical gaslighting that's unhelpful to a woman. There's another thing that's occurring in this community which is, you know, this oversimplification, this dogma that it's quite simple. Breast implants make you sick, you explant, you're better done. And I think that's equally unhelpful. I really do. And while that may be the case, and some people might experience that for a number of complex reasons that happen to align for her and her body and her life, it is not one size fits all. And so to have that kind of oversimplification I have even been told that some women are told it's very simple. Implants make you sick, you explant, you're better. If you're not better, you're mentally unwell. And that just makes me so alarmed and angry. Right. Because how is that any different than the pre explant gaslighting? It's just as harmful. And so there's just a lot of stuff in this area. It's. It's why I think there's such an alignment between what I'm trying to do and the approach that your practice takes it. Because it isn't just that simple, you know?

Exactly.

Yeah.

So I gave a talk to a group of doctors that should have been a very meaningful talk. That was. There's at least 800 empty seats in that audience. That helps you. So that was a interesting event for me. I've never given a talk to quite such an empty place, but I was a plastic surgeon speaking about breast implant illness to a group of functional medicine providers and integrated physicians. So I feel like, wow, what a.

Missed opportunity for them.

8.

I think in short order we'll get opportunities and they will be well received. We do have to be respectful of our clinic's time and my time, because to take me out of it, to go give a talk that amounts to nothing or very little, is not useful for anybody. But we are undeterred, so to speak, about that. We'll be moving forward. We did start a practice training program for breast implant illness so that despite the provider level, you can get more information about how our clinic works and our providers work within the clinic. And we are having an explant surgeon training program as well as a consumer's guide to explant surgery. So I doubt I'm going to have a super amount of fans for this, but that's not the point of it. It's just trying to, you know, educate and help people understand better. Like how to help.

Yeah, I always say you're going to be on the right side of history. You already are. This, it's not, you know, a popular opinion among the, you know, implant manufacturing groups, but there are millions of women who are struggling with symptoms that they don't understand and no one can provide them answers. And it's just simply a matter of us continuing this conversation so that a mother, a sister, a father, a friend hears it and connects it for them. And as soon as these women like myself, like all the women that come in here, as soon as they look a little bit into it, a light bulb goes off all the dots connect, the timelines add up and there's hope again. There's hope that you can actually regain a decent quality of life that so many women lose. And it's related to the breast implants.

So right side of history.

Well, I definitely would like to thank candace, but definitely Dr. Brown for joining us today. Now, Dr. Brown, if someone were to go and hear our episode, where could they find more information and get a copy of your book?

Best place to go is my website, which is my name. So it's amandasavagebrown.com you can go to the Busting Free landing page there and access the book or you can just go straight to Amazon and access the book there. It does come with, it's truly a unique digital library that has guided audio exercises, guided meditations so that you can just listen to a lot of the content because a lot of it's something you need to experience and receive and not just read. Busting Free is a book to do. It's not a book to like go to the beach with. I recommend women read Max, like one chapter a week. Work on it, you know, and I would definitely encourage women to go to my website because, you know, not everybody's a reader. And so I'm getting ready to launch online classes. These are not courses or long term investments. They're one off deep dives into a lot of the topics that we've talked about today. And it's with a professional, you know, mental health practitioner. So we're going to dive into partner issues. We're going to dive into what I call aesthetic anxiety. We're going to dive into how do you lower that mental breast rule book that you've been unknowingly reading from all your life. And you know, so go to my website, there's tons of free resources there too. And then you'll be able to kind of, I like to say keep abreast of what I develop, but that's the best way.

All right, thank you again for joining us.

Thank you so much for having me, both of you. Thank you for what you both are doing. So, so, so helpful. My heart was genuinely, really happy to be able to connect with you two today. I'm just, I say I'm a huge fan but that doesn't land right with me. I just really, because it seems like it trivializes it. I just so appreciate what you're doing. I really, really respect it and I can't give any higher of an endorsement than to say if I was doing it today, I'D I'd be on my way to Austin. So thank you for everything you're doing.

Appreciate it.