Mold Toxicity, Biofilms & Cell Membrane Repair: The Hidden Driver of Chronic Inflammation

Welcome to the show, Dr. Kim. So we've been on calls together and you're in town for today's biohacking meeting, but you have a lot of experience with mold and biofilms, and we've had a couple different dinner conversations now and then cocktail conversations, so we decided to sit down and have a real one. Yeah, at my office in Austin. So thank you for joining us.

Thank you so much for your time. Appreciate it.

Mold used to baffle me. Um, I think, you know, I don't know that I was absent the day it was taught in medical school, but I doubt it was a lot was spent on it.

Yeah.

And certainly it's become one of the more talked about, you know, problems we encounter. And we do a lot of toxicity testing like we've talked about in the past and look at different, you know, mycotoxins. So maybe like, so everybody understands your history with mold and what you experienced and all the things that helped kind of drive where you are now.

Yeah.

Kind of explain that so everybody understands.

Yeah. So long story short, I had a heart attack back when I was 33 years old, back in 2015. Used to suffer from severe heartburn, so I thought it was just regular heartburn issue. Because 3 days prior, I actually went for my friend's wedding, drank heavily, obviously. That's something that we enjoy, used to anyway. Coming back and then having to have this severe heartburn and it was not resolving at all. And then a pain shot right down to my left arm. Instead of going to the ER, end up having to go back to sleep, woke up the following day, went to work, end up going to urgent care center, and then the urgent care center doctor said, "You're having a heart attack at this point. I've gotta ship you to ER." When I even got to the ER, a blood work was done and my troponin level was less than 1. Nothing in terms of classical symptoms of heart attack. So even the attending was saying, "You're dealing with pericarditis and nothing more." Even the attending cardiologist said the same thing. So they were about to discharge me Get the echocardiogram. My left ventricle wasn't pumping well, sign of ischemia. Shipped me right into the cath lab. 85% blockage in my LAD.

At 33?

33.

Wow.

I know. I was the youngest patient to get a stent put in. And I was in the cardiac ICU for 3 days staring at a wall constantly wondering how could I have gotten this. And second thing is what can I do to prevent it from further happening? Because secondary heart attack can actually occur Even if you're on statin drugs anyway, there's no guarantee it's going to be able to be prevented. So that was part that I was trying to ask them a lot of questions. End up going to my functional medicine doctor. All I wanted to do was getting a vitamin C done. IV vitamin C. That was all I wanted to do. And she looked at me, she says, I think you're dealing with some type of tick-borne illness. I'm just like, there's no way. So after a month later, results come back, tested positive for Bartonella. Heavy issue though with mold antibodies specific Aspergillus, okay, mycoplasma pneumoniae, parasites, and including Epstein-Barr. And then the underlying caveat was that I've had very high levels of mercury. So when I was a kid, I used to intentionally break mercury thermometers and play with the mercury ball.

Oh.

So that probably accumulated in my tissues and that's how it came up to be. And I also lived in a moldy house to begin with growing up. So the main thing was that it was an undiagnosed Bartonella and mold toxicity may have presented as cardiac presentation. So during that time, first thing my doctor put me on was utilizing lipid therapy. So I was put on liposomal phospholipids right away. That was something to help to drive down the membrane inflammation I was dealing with, especially epithelial inflammation. My blood work actually was sent over to Dr. Ed Cain over at BodyBio. To analyze the red blood cell fatty acid analysis to see any type of lipoproxysome that was going on, any renegade fats, including how the cell membrane was functioning. And that was a part that really helped me understand that it's not about the toxicity issue. There's an underlying issue dealing with the cell membrane damage that's triggering all the other issues in terms of how cell membrane mitochondrial dysfunction, it becomes an upstream problem, and inflammation, the presentation, the Clinical presentation becomes abdominal sprawl issues that we see as a patient.

You know, you and I have talked about this before, but when you were talking about, you're gonna have to walk it back so everybody kind of understands membranes, 'cause not everybody's familiar with the cell membrane. So there's phospholipids in the cell membrane, and then you took more phospholipids to help with?

Right, so when you actually undergoing through this type of biotoxin stress response, what it does is it actually causes lipid membrane damage. You actually have your own fossil reserve to take care of the damages. It's just that there's an overwhelming response of stress that the body's not able to get back to homeostasis. So there's a term called "cell danger response" made by Dr. Robert Naviaux, discussing about why the body's undergoing through stress response and why they're stuck and they cannot get a straight resolution is the fact that there's an ongoing stress response onto the mitochondria in the cell, that as a result, it's not able to get back to homeostasis and able to get the full resolution you're looking for. So what Dr. Robert Whitfield MD MD also explained about is that undergoing through the initial part of the innate immune response, where you actually have a, let's just say, virus triggering a depolarization of the cell membrane, causing the mitochondria to sense that. So instead of making energy, ATP shifting from oxidative phosphorylation into glycolysis. And so inefficient ways of making ATP. But the really, the interesting part is that mitochondria dictates the entire process to reserve and further preventing from further damage occurring. And another thing that is occurring is that the mitochondria starts to cause autophagy and mitophagy to get rid of the cells that are damaged. Right. And then the other part that is really interesting is that the mitochondria helps to stop the DNA methylation from occurring. So it prevents further oxidative stress going on, but also preventing all the pathogens from hijacking that methylation process to grow.

And so by introducing it with new phospholipids, you're helping intervene—

Intervene the fixing of the membrane structure.

Right. So helping stem some of that response.

Correct. So you have the outer— so there's a bilayer structure. The outer layer is going to be the phospholipid bilayer structure. And that top layer, basically, you actually have 70% comprised of phosphocholine, phosphoethanolamine, phosphoinositole, and phosphoserine. That's the entire structure of that. But another interesting part is that the inner part of the membrane comprised of linoleic and alpha-linoleic acid. You have cardiolipin, you have cholesterol. And ceramides as well, that's the entire structure of it, including plasminogens at the same time. Plasminogens actually act as antioxidants to help prevent further degradation of the cell membrane. It is just that when you're looking at mold in particular is that mold causes lipid peroxidase to occur. So basically oxidizes the fat layer.

The mycotoxins.

Mycotoxins.

Mycotoxins. Others, and then we test for a host of them. And certainly in our experience, the biggest offender on testing that we found is an aflatoxin. So is that kind of been your experience?

Aflatoxin is a big one. One thing I noticed is that trichothecins, which is coming from black mold, Stachybotrys and Fusarium, and then you also talk about ochratoxin, which is very prevalent in food and coffee these days, right? Those end up having to cause higher levels of lipoperoxidase on top of the fact that it actually stops the complex I, III, and IV of the electron transport chain. And then it also causes nephrotoxicity as well. So it compromises multiple areas in the body, but it also breaks down into the fact that not only causing that, there's other plays in terms of like gliotoxin, for instance.

Right.

Right. Comes from Aspergillus fumigatus. And that particular one actually causes blood-brain barrier to be much more leaky and then you have tryptophans end up having to penetrate the blood-brain barrier causing further neuroinflammation.

Yeah, I've seen a fair amount of neuroinflammation even without gliotoxin being high on a test just because I think the patient is already so overwhelmed with chronic inflammation and stress response as you've put it. It's heightened cortisol. I mean, all the things that lead to that kind of overstimulated state, but definitely mold is a very difficult actor in our patient population. And I just had this conversation with another guest where I get a lot of— not hate,. But, um, people ask me a lot, are saline implants full of mold? And in our experience, we looked at 694 consecutive, uh, specimens tested with PCR analysis, uh, from MicrogenDX, and they did all the analysis for us. We published it, and 29% had Staph epidermidis and Cutibacterium actus, which readily produce biofilm and interact with oleic acid in the breast tissues. And so they oxidize and create oxylipentinol, which goes downstream and affects TBET and causes macrophage polarization, leads to less symptoms. But the mold is more like what you're describing, like environmental or through the food or the coffee or the— So that was where I feel like When I talk to patients, I'm like, first, I really worry about either where you live or where you work. Like, those are the places we're gonna get exposed the most. You know, we sleep in a room where there's a water leak or there's mold somewhere, or we work in an environment where you just, you're exposed to it. Like school teachers, like old schools, huge problem.

Yeah. But especially like Austin is number one probably area where you're dealing with mold. Yeah, even Houston where it's very close to anyway. But one of the interesting part is that mold breaks down the skin barrier. So when you talk about the staphylococcus infections and testicular bacteria and you mentioned about, I actually read your study of that. And that is gonna be potentially higher infection rate or having to have a bigger issue because now mold coming in and breaking that, a biostructure of your skin.

Yeah.

So you actually oxidize the skin layer and oleic acid is already present anyway and the bacteria is there to feed off of it. Well, you— Right. Yeah. So now you actually have double the issue on top of biofilm getting involved because biofilms is not just about just the slimy polysaccharides that staphylococcus end up to produce. Now you actually play off mold and heavy metals and all the toxins getting involved to creating that bilettles, creating that layer to protect itself. So it's just a synergistic effect the entire relationship.

Yeah, it's interesting at the tissue level. There's this paper published out of Denmark and they show that plasma cells, B cells and T cells, are, are actually in high amounts at the level of the tissue and people have more vigorous tissue responses. So like more thickness, more firmness, more laying down more scar tissue, which makes sense because they're experiencing that, you know, differently. But I don't know what are all the drivers like we're talking about mold, which I think is a huge driver of this problem, as well as BPA and glyphosate. That's been the top ones that we've encountered. And then the one that's always bothered me, well, that bothers me now is parasitic problems. Like you mentioned co-infections, and I have a bunch of people who have co-infections. And some of the tick-borne tests are pretty good at finding that. Figuring those out. But the parasite one is—

Huge.

Quite a problem.

Yeah, it's not a good test out there to test for those things. I mean, if you do your Vibrant Wellness Tick-Borne Panel, they do test for toxoplasmosis. But here's a reason that the mold and its mitochondrial dysfunction becomes much more prevalent problem for parasites to lingering out. So there's a particular study they looked at toxoplasmosis and found out that the toxoplasmosis was actually feeding off the fatty acid from the cell membrane just to help it grow. And it was basically the cell membrane and the Toxoplasmosis was trying to compete to feeding off of this, properly managing and damage from damages from the cell membrane that was occurring and doing that. The interesting part of this entire study was that mitochondria comes in and blocks the Toxoplasmosis from feeding off the fatty acids. So when you're looking at the entirety of the discussion nowadays about the parasite cleanse and parasite protocols and all these things. When you have a cell, well-functioning cell membrane, well-functioning mitochondria, the body has the ability to retain its property to repel these parasites out because you're actually creating— when you have a well-functioning cell membrane, the exclusion zone criteria of negative ion charge is there to prevent further toxins and parasites from entering the cell membrane.

Okay. Yeah, I still— it's always fascinating to me because I feel like, you know, if we trained in England, tropical diseases, parasitic problems are so much more prevalent because of the nature of that country that we would have more heightened awareness of it, I guess. But here, I mean, I'm in Texas, we're very close to Mexico, and I tell everybody, like, if you go spend time off property in Mexico, I mean, you're going to get a parasite.

Usually. Sometimes.

It's going to be hard to not. Now, whether you get sick or not is not the point. You're gonna get exposed, and then to your point, like, how effective your defense mechanisms are dictates whether or not you get ill from that.

Exactly.

I've just had wildly interesting experiences with our patients, and they've done the cleanses, and they've done other things, and as they go through our program, 'cause we have a whole functional medicine program set up for surgical patients, using the Sharp Method, our methodology. But when they go through that, they'll pass parasites and it's hard because there's so many different types and there's worldwide, Entamoeba histolytica is still the number one reason for a liver abscess because water is still a problem worldwide. It's not, that's probably not gonna change in our lifetimes. And then people who, travel, do mission work, work in general, go on holiday or whatever, they'll get exposed and they'll not get treated or like it'll pass. And then like, what do you, for those folks, like what would be like a non-prescription-based therapeutic treatment with phospholipids that maybe they would, I have a lot of people that just want to try things to see if that will help them prior to taking a prescription because some of those things are very difficult for people to tolerate.

Yeah, actually you made a good point about the liver impact from the parasites, but also another thing is that aflatoxin, which was mentioned before, and we're supposed to kind of dive into that. Aflatoxin is also number one liver carcinogen as well.

Oh yeah, that's right.

It also causes DNA damage. DNA adduct in the cell, the rapid DNA.

It makes a ton of sense with our patients too because they have tons of liver dysfunction. I had a patient call me and had an elevated bilirubin and I was like, "Oh, that's not normal." Yeah.

But another problem with mold is that it actually blocks two pathways into how the bowel flow is actually. Number one thing that mold impacts, trichothecins and ochratoxins, they block something called cytochrome P450-6. 7A1 enzyme, which is a key limiting enzyme for bile production, that gets blocked. And the second part is that there's a bile salt export pump, it's called BSEP, that's supposed to help pump out bile. Well, trichothecenes and ochratoxin also block that pathway as well. So it causes cholestasis.

Yeah, I was gonna say, it backs things up.

Oh, everything, everything's backing up. And then your liver's getting impacted. And so it's the overall, and then on top of the fact that you've got dysbiosis, on top of, uh, enteropathic recirculation, right?

Because if everybody's listening, the, the mycotoxins are bound to the bile salts typically, and if you can't— your enteropathic circulation will just bring them back into your system and not allow you to limit them. That's why we use a lot of medical-grade, you know, binders. I try to be very aggressive with that once, you know, we're in that position.

Yeah, I think your patient's going to do well with Tutka, use of Tutka as a secondary vessel. Yeah. And as well as the use of Ox bile. Combination of it because both primary and then the secondary bile salts and also use of bitters can be very helpful in this scenario to help support them. So one of the things I always end up having to say is you could do all the parasite cleanse and mold, however, if your drainage pathway in your liver and your bile and your kidneys including your lungs and your skin is not opened up correctly, everything's gonna back up. And this is where patients end up having to have a huge issue with Herxheimer reaction. And when you have a, mitochondrial dysfunction going on, your cells not have to function as well either. In order for you to do any type of phase 1 and phase 2 metabolism, it does require proper ATP production. But when you have a mitochondrial dysfunction, and this reason why it's such a key effect of adding essential fatty acids to fix the cell membrane primarily first, followed by utilizing things to help to open up the drainage pathway, then attacking some of these pathogens correctly there.

So we have a lot of patients who want to really aggressively do things, and we have to, like, temper that because, as you're alluding to, you can't aggressively detox many of our patients who are suffering from, you know, chronic inflammation with a device in place because that device is, you know, in certain patients having a much, much bigger impact than other patients. And we can't really tell you tell you which one of those is—

It's hard to predict anyways. —is the case.

So we don't try to aggressively detoxify somebody and lead a patient down a path of Herx reactions. And I tell people to limit sauna for this reason because I've had patients give themselves Herxheimer-type reactions from that too aggressively because they won't use or don't know to use a binder. Plus, I'm more concerned about leaching from the silicone elastomer shell of heavy metals, especially things like tin and antimony, cadmium, platinum, all these things that really can cause neuroinflammation and all sorts of other problems. So we try to be really thoughtful and intentional and careful about doing things pre-surgically and then obviously give them a period of time afterwards and you can begin to build upon steps like you said in the phases and everything. Sometimes it takes quite a while. It does.

I mean, some people are not ready for doing that, especially when you're talking about patients dealing with MCAS and mast cell activation. I mean, you just had Dr. Temzi on just before. But, when you have an underlying issue dealing with mast cells, not the fact there's mold or parasites, they have an underlying neuroinflammation and heightened issue doing microglia activation. And then, what I described is the mast cell priming that's going on. So, already body's already tense and just looking out for danger, anything new getting introduced, especially a supplement or any type of detox protocol. Right, right. Body's not able to handle that issue. So one of the things that I really look at is how do we create a safety back in the body before we proceed to do anything of that nature. So one of the things that I like to do is working with an EMDR specialist, doing heavy amounts of breathwork, really help to downregulate the nervous system properly before we do that.

Yeah. EMDR is in self-work and meditation. We've tried to get patients to really, 'cause I don't have anybody on staff for that. I really try to get folks motivated to do that because it does, you know, there's so much sympathetic activation in our patient population and mast cell activation and problems with mold and just environmental toxins. It's a lot of, of weight. Yes. And, you know, our, our goal is always to help, you know, wherever we can, meet everybody where we can, but we can't do all those things, you know, for every, you know, patient. We have a pretty comprehensive program, but we don't have any specialized mental health type care, and it's super important.

Huge. So my program is called the Encore Method. STAND for Environmental Toxicity, Nervous Response, Cellular Optimization, Optimizing Detox Pathway, Rebalancing Microbiome, Enhancing Resiliency. So it's basically sequential matters as to how to walk the patient over through. You cannot just focus on rebalancing microbiome when you're already patients who are completely stuck and not able to get things out. So outflow is very important aspect of it. But when you have a poor outflow, that means that your cell membrane is not functioning properly either. And when you have a, underlying issue with nervous system dysfunction and a heightened response dealing with fight or flight, you can't detox properly. Right, absolutely. And then the environment actually really matters. Obviously mold could be one thing, but then when you're in a shitty relationship and having to have, you know, stress response in the house, that also impacts in terms of how that person's able to be. So one of the things I always say is like, your house should be a sanctuary for you to recover. It shouldn't be a chaotic place that you're constantly worried about how you're gonna react and such. And when I work with these patients who are hypersensitive, from the moment they wake up, they're worried about what's gonna hit them in the morning or what's gonna happen throughout the entire day. So already waking up, I call it the Chinese fire drill effect. So it's constantly worried about things and then that's gonna just affect everything from their gastrointestinal function to their overreaction to certain food and such. So you have to walk them through it. So that's why I came up with this matter into sequential ways into doing it. Because when I work with clients with MCAS and severe mold issues, no matter what you do, they start reacting. You need to really getting the system calming itself and that's what the cells end up having to feel and also react to. When you're dealing with high levels of cortisol, it also ligates the cell membrane. So there's a particular enzyme called phospholipase A2 enzyme. Driven through cortisol effect. So that's going to ligate that cell membrane. So if you're dealing with biotoxin issues, stress response, and all the other things, which I call the toxic bucket effect, it's just endless amount of it. So the primary focus should be cell membrane. How do we get that cell membrane fixed properly? This is where the essential fatty acids is balancing that out, help to support that body into creating that safety and walking that entire process through.

So we've covered a lot of ground, but it sounds like obviously you want to influence the, the bilayer. So give me kind of your thought process about that. We'll just have our patient come in, they already have chronic inflammation, you're trying to help sort them out. Is that first step to really start working and helping the bilayer?

So what I first actually do is for For your clients who are very active in an inflammatory condition, I'll start with the SPM-based fish oil. So BodyBio actually has a product called Resolven, and it's SPM-based phospholipid-bound caviar oil actually. So it's full of DHA and EPA that's unaltered, works really well to drive that. So SPM is actually a signal molecule to drive down the chronic inflammation down rapidly. Very rapidly. So when you look at the entire cascade of how the cell membrane and how, in case of mitochondrial dysfunction, you're in a case of those type of conditions, what the mitochondria is going to do is actually start to pump out extracellular ATP out. So intracellular ATP gets dropped into extracellular ATP. Why that's an important thing is that that is a driven signal to act as a danger-associated molecular pattern to allow all the cells that there's a danger going on, the cell is under threat, and this is something that we have to contain to. What SPM does is, it helps to calm that response down very, very rapidly. So that's gonna be very helpful for your clients there. Now, you have to build up the other layer aspect of it. So, the linoleic, alpha-linoleic, because oftentimes, patients are eating very poorly. They already have an oxidized fat layer to begin with. So this is where use of the Balance Oil, which is a 4:1 ratio of omega-6, omega-3, can be helpful in terms of adding those two fats basically to help really getting that through. And supporting it through use of TUDCA. I know we have some different opinions about the glutathione aspect of it, but this is time where use of glutathione could be selective in terms of who to be, refer to. So for instance, if you had done a total tox panel testing, you found that the gliotoxin is very elevated, that's not a patient that you should be using glutathione at that point in time because the sulfite aspect of it becomes hypersensitive and you can end up having to cause—

So outside of their own existing glutathione. Correct, yeah.

So in that point of it, supporting it more gently. So I like using more things like Siscentra. To help support the liver as well as to help to ease the pressure on their bile. And then so gallbladder support. So use of Tucka and Oxbar could be very helpful in that scenario as well. Use of things like taurine and glycine can be very helpful in supporting this entire process. Instead of actually putting so much pressure on that end of it. And it's really understanding where that patient's journey is in the context of Cell Dangerous. Response because even adding an antioxidant too fast can increase more reactive oxygen species to be formed anyway. So that's the part that's really integral into the understanding aspect of it. And this is where the cell membrane also comes in. Oftentimes when patients are hypersensitive, phospholipids they cannot tolerate. The reason being is it is a signal molecule, but also it pushes the bile too rapidly by 230%. Hmm. Yeah. So in a scenario like that, they do need phospholipids, I'll recommend adding in very slowly, maybe a quarter of it, maybe a 1/3 of a teaspoonful or 1/4 of it, slowly escalating it up into that. And some people who are hypersensitive, they can't tolerate all at once. So reducing the inflammation but also calming the mast cell could be one of the focal point to help with that process as well. So things like DAO enzyme, right? Quercetin, you're talking about H1 and H2 antihistamines out there. Right. So those are gonna be really helpful. Luteolin is— I love luteolin, use of that. Sometimes—

And then over what timeframe are you doing this part?

Part? I would recommend doing that when we suspect inflammation, you want to have to ease that inflammation down as quick as possible. So I'm not sure how you prep your clients before doing explant, but I would recommend doing at least, at least, you know, around 6 to 8 weeks process of it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So our It really depends on everybody's logistics. It's already, you know, we have a pattern where we have to operate and we have to have certain levels of supplementation. And we try to keep a baseline. So we run our program, one, because we have to limit any issues that we can have with bleeding. So we have to be careful how many antioxidants we're using. And in terms of fish oil or anything, for the omegas, I try to be very careful because we operate on supplements. We don't stop supplementation. So we always add more later and are careful about that so that we don't create an issue in the operating room because you don't want to have other problems in that. You can always be more aggressive after the fact. Correct.

And then especially when you talk about fish oil and the blood-thinning properties, I mean, so studies have shown is that if you're taking more than 4,000 milligrams omega-3, that's when they have it to have issue dealing with bleeding issues.

Yeah, I'm not specific to that. It's just cumulatively across all, all the things together is usually what the— it's not usually just one that So we have a set of strengths and dosages that work and don't elevate our, you know, threshold for problems with bleeding. And so then after we're done and we get out of the window of the first few weeks, then we can be more deliberate and add things back in and not be as concerned about it. Yeah, you know, the run-up's different to surgery and then through the surgical part, and then afterwards it becomes a bit easier to to add in and be more aggressive. Depending on the patient. Some patients are really, as you already know, very sensitive, and the more you add, the more challenging it becomes.

The simplicity always matters in that process.

Yeah. That's in the beginning. You asked me how we prep people. Like, it's a— I often think, you know, many times I say like your sleep hygiene is what I prioritize because if you have dysregulated sleep, then there's really no chance I'm gonna solve what ails you. So the first things are always improving sleep hygiene, controlling the quality of what you put in and on your body, and your air quality. Like, that's a lot to manage for most, you know, in the beginning. So that's structurally how we, you know, start. Then we have a, like I said, a stack that we use supplementation and nutritional guidance. And that's, that's meant to prepare somebody to lower inflammation from the beginning of the interaction to the point where we can have a surgical, you know, outcome that we're not going to be concerned about, you know, raising risk level in anything. And then after that, we can get definitely more— I have a whole team like you do runs the, the functional program and And then they're doing more and more work, more intensive work. But everybody's very different, as you know, with MCAS or with Lyme or a combo of these things in addition to all the things with implants. Yeah, including mold, yeah, of course. Yeah, and oh gosh, and mold, yes. That's always—

Yeah. Well, mold also, it disrupts sleep cycle anyway, especially gliotoxin, they tend to affect that. But one of the things I've seen in studies is that it's, Oxytocin specifically and tryptophan affect lymphatic flow. Yeah, sure. So that's a huge undertaking that patients are able to calm their brain down. So one of the things I like to do is anything that related to helping to, you know, drive down that sympathetic nervous system could be very helpful. So L-theanine, like phosphoceramide, can be helpful in that process, right?

And so for everybody listening, the lymphatic system is your lymphatic system, around your brain. It only rinses and repeats at night when you sleep. So if you have dysregulated sleep or you tell us that you're great after 5 hours, which is untrue, nobody is. I don't care who says that. You only rest and recover at night when you sleep, and that's when your lymphatic drainage, your glymphatic drainage, everything happens. All the hormones, all the magic is at nighttime or when you're resting, not when you're awake or upright or vertical. So, well, I wanna thank Dr. Kim for coming out of the meeting and joining us for this discussion. So if folks want to find out more about your work with your team, how do they get in touch with you?

Yeah, absolutely. You could go to my website, drjohnkim.com, and I'm very active on Instagram. It's john.pharmd. I put a lot of wealth information there about mold toxicity and how you detox and how you support yourself cellularly. So that's all there.

So I'm always available. Awesome. Thanks for coming.

Eh, dah. Thank you so much.