Entrepreneurship and Society — Get More!

Hello, dear Get More listeners.

Today we have with us Roel Wolfert. So Roel, tell me, who are you?

Yeah, well, first of all, Thomas, thank you very much for the invite. It's a pleasure to be here. And yeah, so who am I? Well, I'm a human being and that's where I think it all starts. So my name is Roel Wolfrid. I'm married. I have two children, two boys. But I think what is important to know about me is as a person, I'm very explorative in life in general. I want to know about everything and learn and touch it, feel it, experience it. And then I either stick with it or I move on, right? You know, and this could be a journey on a holiday, you know, new people, new countries, new areas. But it's also in work, new topics, new interests, new ideas, new technologies, and working with that. And the second thing I think people need to know about me, when I hear about new things, I can adjust my opinion based on new facts or new information. And I would say that's arguably probably my best, at least side of my character is because that means I can not only absorb new information, but I can do new things with it and change course in life or in business or whatever. So I think that, that is me. But, but, you know, a few practical things. I love to box, exercise, but also I'm a beekeeper. So that requires some patience. I live in the countryside. So I'm not a city person. I go there for work. That's how I view cities and big, big things, big cities. And I live in the nature, in a nature reserve area in the forest. I have my own food forest we've grown together with my wife and we keep bees and chickens and, you know, I like the green and I love to sit in the sun early mornings with a cup of coffee. So yeah, I think that's me in, you know, in short.

That's nice. That's a nice way to summarize the best part of life. I like the cup of coffee in the sun. That's definitely a must.

Yeah, absolutely. The sun, I live in the Netherlands as you know, so that's a little bit of a challenge, right, to get real stuff.

Yeah, yeah. But that's why you, you appreciate it even more.

Yeah, yeah.

When you see us here in the south of France, we complain it's too warm during the summer.

So there's always something, right?

Yeah. And then it's too cold, and then it's too wet.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's—

oh yeah, that's the way things go. Yeah. So, uh, what are you doing nowadays with all that capability to change and to learn new things?

Yeah. So at a certain point in time, so I had a career, I, you know, it all started in university. I studied at a different type of university. It's University of Maastricht. And when I started studying there in the early '90s, it was the only university I know that had problem-based education. So rather than sitting listening to professors all day, we worked in small groups on real business themes, business cases. And as a group, you had to work on that and, you know, look into theoretical books and based on your own experience, define answers from theory and practical discussions.

Nice.

So that really shaped me. And it's, I think also the most important thing I learned in university is not all the knowledge I got, but the skill to cooperate in teams. And again, you know, learn new things, make it your own. And then build upon that, right? So that, that is, I think, an important skill. I've led most of my career, was defined by a number of things in my working life. So first of all, I only want to work with people I like. Okay. So when I took my first jobs, that, that was mainly because these people I had a good connection with. Yeah. So I felt attracted to them. In a, in a, in a way that I felt like, oh, these are likable people. Mm-hmm. You know, they will be good for me. And that always worked out generally, you know, some of these people became mentors through life.

Okay.

Now they said you should be working in financial services and with technology, mostly software driven. And I think that brought me a long way because one of the things that it learned me, I've fully understand what money is and how it works, because most of my career I've been working with payment systems, money systems, and all these things. And that put me on the path to actually change the money system to the better for the people. Okay. And that's sort of my life mission. Yeah. I think that that's interesting. And I developed an approach on how to do that, which I call one-third, one-third, one-third. So I spent one-third of my time on actually creation. Yeah. So new projects, new business or something in the garden that doesn't really matter, but I want to create with my time. Then one-third of my time, I want to share knowledge. Yeah. So everything I know, I share and I do that through, so I teach at Porto Business School or some other universities part-time to lecture my knowledge. But also I coach people sometimes or just in a conversation telling people. So I want to explain my knowledge. I've written a book this year, last year, sorry, it's called Region 4.0. We'll get back to that later. But that's one thing. The last thing is I want to spend one-third of my time to become a better person. So actually educate myself, learn new tricks, new things, experience new things. So, and together over a period of a year, if I balance my time one-third, one-third, one-third, you know, I know I'm gonna be in the, you know, the man I need to be to deliver on my purpose.

Okay.

So yeah, where does it come from, the purpose? Because ultimately I got involved in this tech financial services simply, I call it, let's call it the universal, you know, the universe made it happen, right? So I met nice people and they said, you're good at here at working here. You know, you should be in financial services, you should do this. Pretty soon they also said you shouldn't do computer coding because I was called the spaghetti man. So, you know, it worked, but it, it wasn't very well structured. Let's put it like that. But I was good at also mobilizing people, bringing people together, creating plans. And, you know, I have what we call grit. So I will not stop till it's done.

Okay.

Yeah. And as my mother said, you know, I thought you couldn't get on the other side of that fence because it was, You know, the things were too small, you couldn't even go in between and all of a sudden you were at the other side of the fence and you just put your head through it. Even if it didn't fit, you just went through it. I kept that mentality for the rest of my life. At least so far so good, right? And I think that grit is an extremely powerful tool. If you work and you keep focusing, you keep putting the hard work in, results will come, positive results, right? And that's what I've been doing. So first I thought in my career, oh look, I love working here with these people. But I felt a certain need for freedom and I thought, oh, I will get the freedom when I'm the boss, right? In a company and a simple analogy. And I didn't want to be an entrepreneur because my parents bankrupted in their business.

Okay.

That as a risk. Yeah. So I kept moving up the, the chains. And when I was, I think it was 38 or so, I was a managing partner at, at IT firm of software system integration called Logica. Now it's called CGI. So I was in the top 100 management. Yeah. So I'd done pretty well with a 50,000-person company, right? I decided to move on to Visa Europe, become one of the leadership team, the executive leadership team. Now Visa, of course, a very well-established brand, most people. So I thought, now I'm there. And every time I moved up higher, I came to the realization that there is less freedom. Okay. So the more public you are, the more constraint. And I noticed that specifically with Visa, if I wanted to do a presentation, the presentation was written by corporate communication, by experts. You had to keep to the script.

Okay.

You cannot divert if there's recordings. There needs to be a lawyer in the room, yada, yada, yada, yada, right? So I felt like, wow, this is not, it's— this is not it for me. And it's not that I realized that in my head, but it— I just felt, uh, you know, as we said at the beginning of this meeting, in my heart, that's not me.

Yeah.

So at a certain point in time, I just, you know, and this was when the, the next thing happened. There was a new CEO coming at Visa, you know, they were gonna change everything, you know, more shareholder value and yada, yada, yada, all short-term goals, which I don't believe in. And I said, thank you. How do you need me? Because I'm, this is not me. I'm, I'm not gonna do this. And I didn't know what I wanted to do, but basically I left the company pretty fast to avoid all the shizzle of this new sort of reorganization that was due to happen. I, I couldn't waste another day in such a stressful, toxic environment. Okay. I didn't know what to do, but I left anyway and I decided, okay, I have knowledge, so let's sell myself for my knowledge and do something with it. Then I came on a journey to figure out, like, some people know, you know, I want to build a company like this or do that at an early age. And that's awesome. I'm 51 now and I still don't know exactly where it's going. Yeah, but I know the purpose I have in mind. So I started as a consultant and I built a consultancy company. I think we made, yeah, after a year and a half we made €2 million a year in revenue, which I would say is pretty good. Made a lot of money. But I said, nah, this is not it, right? It's not my thing to work and sell my hours because, okay, yeah, and, and it didn't work out. So I decided that it had to change. So rather than doing all these consultancy projects, I want to be more in control, more involved. So we moved to interim management, transformed it more. But then as an interim manager, you know, ultimately they say, well, you know, you're external, right? And the second thing that happened with companies where I was a statutory director and I really had something to say, I thought, why am I doing this for the shareholder? Because again, I, you know, I was getting there, you know, I got a nice bonus for, you know, making a company look good and selling it off. But the bonus was in, I think it was €50,000, right? And the shareholders made 4 million in addition to before I, so I was like, wow, maybe, you know, there is something, maybe there is something. And I decided to move on that path, let's call it corporate redevelopment or buy and build strategies and do these things for myself. I found a partner in that there. I learned that partnerships with people, you know, you really need to align because this ended badly. I would say also financially, but I learned a lot from that and, and The first thing I learned is stick to what you're good at. Yeah. Keep doing what you're doing even if there's a downfall. And that financially almost killed us. Yeah. Bankrupted us privately. But we decided to move on on that path anyway because I knew it was the right thing to do. And you know, that's what I'm doing today. So I managed to either work with companies that we do a buy and build. So we buy the company or we take it over. And mostly in the software space, preferably something to do with financial services. Okay. Yeah. Value transfers in that area. And I'll, I'll get to that later. And then the second thing is we consult in that space. So basically depending on the need of the, of the client asking you, say you pay me by the day with the team, or we take an equity stake in the company first and we agree on how to do that. And I think it brought me focus.

Okay.

But also I'm a variety man. So too much focus is, is, is sort of limiting my creativity. So I have two side projects, right? One is I really want to get to grips with the world of e-commerce and with personal development. So I got my coaching degree, I think it was in 2013 or 2012. With the European Mentoring and Coaching Council. I did a number of practitioners. I really enjoyed coaching. And that was part of the one-third, one-third, one-third, right? And then I think was in on my, one of my personal journeys, going to Tony Robbins, using hypnotherapy and all these sort of things of self-exploration. I ran into the concept of psychedelics. And I decided to start a microdosing online business called Extra Positive to share the experience of microdosing with people, which is an, an unradical way of reforming yourself, not in a one big session and transform the hell out of yourself, but just on a gradual, just feel better every day, perform better every day. And, and, you know, the gradual approach for the masses to transform their lives to the better. Okay. And did that. And the other thing I decided to do is as a freedom believer in, you know, that started in the financial crisis in 2008, you know, it all disconnected in my brain how you can have a debt crisis and you refinance that with double the debt and then it's okay. We'll get that. But in, I think it was 2019 or 2020, in 2019 you had the repo event, which a lot of people don't know about. But that's basically when the US meltdown happened in September and the Federal Reserve started to print money because there was a global liquidity gap on money. And that was unprecedented and we needed more euros as well. And when Corona came, the politicians or the bankers, I don't know exactly who made those decisions, but they saw the opportunity to print more money. Okay. To fill the liquidity gaps in society. And I thought, well, now you make the same mistake again as in 2008, and this is going to cause hyperinflation. And they used all sorts of perspectives on life to stay within the narrative. And I felt like, okay, well, there's something fundamentally wrong here, what we're doing. And I felt it should be more about people than about technology or policies or systems. Okay. So people come first. And I also believe that you can't solve a problem from Brussels or The Hague that exists in a certain region because there's always a local context. Yes. But determines, you know, how it should be resolved to the best possible way for the people who are suffering from this problem. Right. So I started a movement called Society 4.0 together with a professor from a famous business school in the Netherlands called Nairode because he wrote a book called Society 4.0. Okay. Which basically explaining why the world is changing and that it's not a COVID crisis or an energy crisis or a food crisis, whatever. No, we have a systemic crisis because we are at the verge of moving as humanity towards either a local movement or a global technology-led government, sort of governance. Okay. That's at the very extreme ends. And I'm, I'm believer of, you know, let's put people first and let technology support us. Right. I believe that problems are local and therefore they need to be resolved local and not 200 kilometers away or 5,000 kilometers or 50,000 kilometers, whatever. They should be fixed locally. And I also believe that entrepreneurship is not about earning money, but it's about contributing to society to create a better world. Yeah. And money could be side effect that you get when you do things right. Yeah. Now those 3 principles I applied in the Movement Society 4.0. I wrote a book about Region 4.0, which will come after the summary in English as well. It's in Dutch now. But ultimately, and that's what I find extremely interesting, is that large corporations like ASML, the computer manufacturer or the the machine manufacturer for computer chips, right? They're also regionalizing their business. So you see big trend happening in regionalization of business where people come first. And I, you know, that's, that's sort of my journey and what I'm working on right now, as I told you, my, my is to reorganize the financial world. I'm working on a topic called tokenization, which is basically making real world assets accessible for everybody. So that people really know what they own, why they own it, what their rights are, what the value is, how much return they can expect and what they can do with it. Because for the podcast listeners that think, yeah, but we already know that they don't. Because when you put your money in the bank right now, as soon as you put your money in the bank, you're no longer the owner of the money. Yeah. You have the right to get your money back. But the bank actually owns it. And if they decide not to give it back to you, you're not going to get it. Yeah. And if the bank bankrupts, first creditors and everybody gets money, and then you're the last one receiving some of your money back. And I think this is causing also the whole concept of inflation that we're seeing in money. And I'm trying to work together with a lot of other people, of course, because it's a whole movement. Of businesses, including bankers, right? So it's not that we're against the banks. We take everybody on this journey to build a healthy financial system. And the latest things I'm doing right now is like tokenizing kilowatt hours. And why, why energy, by the way? And, and that goes back to the whole idea. What, why do we need money? Right? Yeah.

How do you start?

Yeah. So it goes back a long way. Yeah. Money was created actually because, Thomas, you needed some milk or a piece of beef and I had a cow, right? And I'm not going to slaughter the entire cow. You're not going to buy the entire cow. Yeah. Because you only want one steak right now. So you gave me money. And I could slice up the cow in 1000 pieces, whatever, and sell it to multiple people. Yeah. And, you know, people could actually get a portion of that. And I would get some money back. Yeah. Because the milk you would give me back, otherwise I would have, I don't know how many thousands of liters of milk, which I would never consume. Right. So that, that's, that's the process. So it was to sort of, capture time gap. Now that's based on the— and now we go into the philosophical side of things. That's actually because people started to distrust one another. We needed money. Now, you know, history is not completely clear about this. So there's a lot of facts. But what I learned to believe and actually experience that in my own life, if you give something to somebody, something will get back to you. It might directly be connected or indirectly be connected to your activities. Let's call that manifestation, or, you know, the universe pays back, whatever you want to call it. And so I thought if there's some sort of universal energy, I'm not an expert in the energy world, then the best thing to do with money is to turn it into energy. And the best energy we know today is kilowatt hours, but there is more types of energy. Yeah. Magnetic energy, et cetera, et cetera, that we could still utilize it. So it's actually transformation program towards building energy coins, energy tokens with some practical use as well. Because we had the energy crisis due to whatever happened, the energy prices went up, we had to go off the gas, kilowatt hours became expensive. Gas tripled. And the, the interesting side effect of what we're doing right now is that we are basically with this project I'm working on, uh, gonna reduce the energy prices with, uh, hopefully 30, 40, 50% again.

Nice.

So that it becomes affordable. Yeah. And, uh, we're gonna put energy on the blockchain. Uh, we're gonna introduce software to democratize ownership of energy. And we've been lobbying for this for years. And the great news came yesterday that there has been a law accepted in the Netherlands for the so-called bilateral exchange of energy. Mm-hmm. Means that as a household or as a company, you're not only allowed to receive energy, but you can also put it back on the grid. Yeah. And, and that's legalized, right? And you can also put it back on the grid to another company, not just the electricity company. But you can put it back to the neighbor or somebody in your living area or, and, and that's the next level we're working on. So yeah, you know, that's so when, when you say we, who is we?

Because I mean the project, when I hear you, the project is amazing, no question about that. But yeah, you, you have to have a lot of people to do all that. I mean, it's, it's quite a challenge.

In, in 2018, I started a foundation. Then it was called 2017. It was called CryptoDelta, nowadays called TwoTokens.org. Yeah, people can look it up. It's a dissemination collective of a lot of companies where we bring knowledge together on tokenization. And tokenization is the primary process. You can apply that for, you know, gold. You can apply that for, you know, shareholdings, large holdings of business bonds in banking, but also with energy or carbon or water, whatever. And we're working on that field. So I think that is quite exciting. And we're looking at that through that foundation. So a lot of people are, I think we have over 60 corporate members there right now. Okay. Okay. Swedish companies, Portuguese, German, American, Dutch.

So you go worldwide.

Yeah. So that's quite a big movement happening there. That's one side. Then I have my companies, of course. So the V-Grip company is basically turning into a software development company from a consultancy business. And we have a nice team in Albania and, and elsewhere. We build software for these solutions. Then we have the other company, which is sort of the buy and build company called Reimagine8. Yeah. And that is bringing together now at the moment, we basically already acquired several software technologies from other areas that we're putting together. And we have a number of customers in the UK already for parts of these solutions. Okay. Yeah. And by the end of this year, we hope to formalize all the buy and build. Or actually I want it now before the summer, but, but it's probably going to be September, between September and December that everything is going to be put together. We launched the new software brand all out worldwide and we are going to enter this market space.

Okay.

And yeah, of course, you know, if people are interested in, in money and tokenization and blockchain and kilowatt hours, you have a solar park or you are in the energy business, renewable energy or hydrogen or whatever, or you have carbon issues. Yeah, you know, happy to help with that to first of all help you build a more sustainable energy business. But also if you have solutions in this space, we're happy to understand more because we're, you know, I live by the Asian principle, share first and then multiply later. Yeah. Uh, so we share with people, uh, and then we'll multiply together. Um, it's, it's the difficult road, but, uh, way more rewarding than let's grab the money. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So it's very interesting because somehow your, your journey, your journey shows that, uh, what you thought first, freedom equals being the boss, uh, for a company is not working. Freedom equals being an entrepreneur and, and following your dreams.

Yeah.

Following up, maybe that's a bit bluntly summarized, but sounds like that.

I'm Dutch. This is not blunt, Thomas. This is real.

You're right. You're right. You're right.

If, if you work in a company, then I would say that your work is never your creation. Yeah. So somebody else, and it can mean that you are free, for example, in your personal life to do certain things. So then people who work in companies, I don't, You know, I always think you're working because you need some money to fulfill another purpose in your life, right? But I figured out that my life is to create things and I want to do something with this money system and all the things. And then you cannot do that being in the exco of Visa or major software business or whatever you do. You have to run your own business. Yeah. Yeah.

That's a very good point. Now here's a question for you. In your one-third, one-third, one-third, as a married, as a husband, as a father, how did you manage that part of your life? Because I mean, we know that entrepreneurship and family and corporate relationship can be very challenging, very tough at the same time. So I like your one-third, one-third, one-third. So how did you organize that?

Well, Yeah, that, that's a difficult question. I have to think about that. It just happened, right?

Okay.

First of all, you listen very carefully to— first of all, I, I met the perfect woman, right? Okay. Married before, and, uh, as I, I would gladly say, I still love my first wife, uh, for the person she is, but we were not meant to be together, you know, for a longer part in our life. Because we had different interests and different feelings.

Okay.

What, what should happen, right? Um, then I met my, my second wife, my current wife. That was instant love. Yeah. So I saw her and I thought, yeah, that's my wife. Okay. She, she had some doubts in the beginning.

Yeah. I was going to say, did you think the same?

Yeah. No, it was, she felt, of course she felt attracted, otherwise that, that, that would never happen.

Yeah, sure.

I'm, I'm, I'm a very simplistic guy. I know what I want and I trust my heart. Yeah. And I was already at that stage. I could say, okay, this is gonna work. Now, first of all, it all starts that, you know, there's a few concepts. Yeah. People, I often hear people saying, oh, I have to sacrifice this for that in my marriage. I never felt like sacrifice. When it feels like sacrifice, I'm out. I don't want to sacrifice.

Something's wrong.

Yeah. Yeah. Something's wrong. So I just do it. Yeah. And I, I promised my wife a few things. First of all, I'm always there. Mm-hmm. And I am, of course, sometimes there's a physicality or, you know, I'm at work or doing things and there's a life event happening. I can't be there. Mm-hmm. But in principle, I'm always there. Yeah. Uh, she can always rely on me, build on me, whatever. And the good thing is we're, you know, in, let's call it in this partnership, She also does that for me. Yeah. So I was telling about this, this, uh, business venture that went wrong. Yeah. With my business partner. But my wife was there for me. You know, this costed almost everything financially in our lives, but she always supported me. Uh-huh. That's essential. Yeah. My wife is a, a professional painter. Look up her paintings, annamarieverdelle.com. She's beautiful. She paints nature. Yeah. And she was an HR director at Shell. Okay. Look, you know, you don't need to earn a living. Just do your thing and become a painter and do whatever you do. And she did. Yeah. So she follows her dream as well. And I support her in following that dream. So when we had children, we didn't have long discussions like, oh, we're gonna do it like this or that. We just said, look, The most important thing is our children. Let's be there for them. Yeah. So we, we said we minimize the time in daycare. Okay. Not like, you know, we're gonna, no, we minimize the time in daycare and we, we as people, as a husband and wife or father and mother, we also need to feel fulfilled. And it's quite stressful world, uh, as most of us, uh, listening will experience. Yeah. There, there's a lot of stress because financial stress, work stress, Yeah. Yeah. That are related to that. And, you know, there's a lot of demands on people. Take the kids to the sports, put them on piano lesson, do this, do that. You know, you know, sort of my third business I always say is running a taxi business, right? Yeah. Because I'm the chauffeur all the time. And you just fulfill that. And we, we, we were so aligned on how to do these things that was, Wow, that was, that's awesome. Yeah. So we didn't have a lot of debates. Yeah. My wife said, I want to be home with the kids. We're not gonna put them at daycare after 16 weeks or whatever. So we, we, we waited as long as we could till I think they were both at least minimum 2 years old before they went to some daycare. Nice. Yeah. And that's to build the relationship. Yes. Just before this meeting, I actually booked a father-son trip with my 8-year-old, my eldest. And we're going off for a long weekend with a group of other fathers and sons. Okay. Father-son trip. And it's a friend of mine and he organizes this and we go in a tent with a, you know, and make our own campfire, build our own food. And it's to establish that sort of different level of relationship. Yes. You could argue, yeah, your son is 8. Yeah. So, so what's that relationship as soon as possible and expand it. Yeah. And it's not expanded in my view by experiencing a joint computer game or watch a movie together or no. So you actually have to do something and conversate and be physically and emotionally present. And the only way to do these things is to not have a phone or an iPad or that technology in the house. Yeah. Preferably as far away as possible. And that's also precondition my wife and I fully agree with that. As long as these devices are away, we have a way happier, stressful life, less stressful life. Sorry to say that. I almost made a mistake there. Yeah. So yeah, I hope that answers your question. So it happened quite naturally and we were just aligned on a lot of these things. And there's two things we did. We said, I'll ultimately support you in everything you want. Second thing is we talk a lot. Yeah. And of course my wife uses 3 times more words than I do. Yeah. But that's fine, you know. Yeah.

It's part of the game.

It's part of the game. She's a woman, I'm a man, and that's how it works.

Yeah, that's nice.

It's lovely.

So based on all that, what would be for today a deep thought or some takeaway you would like the listeners to have and to live with?

Well, first of all, there's two takeaways I want to give, and they can do whatever they want with it. But the first thing is start thinking about what money really is, right? And it's not what you think it is today. So investigate, do your own research, or just believe me on my word and saying the money we have today is completely useless without value, and it's just creating more problems than solutions. Yeah. So prepare yourself for what's likely to happen, and we're gonna see some financial downfall significantly, and you would get in a situation. So it's a little bit of a message. Educate yourself in the field of money because people accept it because we all use it every day.

Yeah.

But we don't really know what it is.

So educate. Absolutely.

Yeah. That's one thing on a personal level. Yeah. I would just say, you know, and this is, I learned this from somebody. Yeah. A mentor of mine, Israeli guy, Aryeh Ben David. Thank you, Aryeh, if you hear this. You know, there's a lot of good memories here. And when people say things, just think the following: interesting. Don't have judgment. Just say inside yourself, interesting. And just when people stop talking, you can just say, that was interesting. Tell me more.

Yeah.

And you don't have to agree with what they're saying, but learn from it, extract from it, have a conversation, build that relationship. And it's beautiful. Yeah. What comes from that simple trick I learned is just thinking yourself, you know, because we all assume, eh, and assume makes an ass outta you and me. That's where the word assume comes from. Right. It's spelled the same way. So don't assume anything, just say interesting. And when you use that word interesting and not in the Dutch way. Yeah. So really interested in doing things. I know in English people might use interesting in a different way, but interesting, ready to explore, open-minded, open your brain, be creative, allow new information to come in. That will change a lot of things in your life to the positive. So awesome.

Thanks for that. That's cool. That's a very, very, very nice takeaway. And so if people want to keep the conversation with you, learn more about all what you're talking about, where can they find you? Where, where's the easiest way to find you?

Well, so I'm on LinkedIn, Ruul Wulfert. That's also where we're connected, Thomas.

So I think absolutely.

Also have a website, ruwolfert.com. You can just send a message there or via any of my businesses. They're also on my personal website. Um, I'm not going to give my phone number here because who's going to call you nowadays, right?

You are married, so no.

Yeah, no, exactly. But you know, I'm on Telegram, so you can find me @RuWolfert on Telegram if people are there. Yeah, that's also fine. Uh, but please be a little bit patient because I'm also, you know, I have my own life. So if I don't respond within half an hour, don't think I'm not going to respond and that I don't like you or whatever. No, just give it some time, right?

Yeah, I think we got it that you are a busy man.

So I like to use my time very carefully in this world.

Yeah, that's good. That's good. So I wanted to thank you for your time, for sharing all this with you. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much.

Well, thank you for the opportunity, Thomas, and I hope people enjoyed listening to this and do something with it.