FLA 213 - Ryan Cadwell - Top Lessons From $100 Million Real Estate Investor and Developer

Hello and welcome back to the show. So I'm excited to have my guest today, Ryan Cadwell, because he is a certified property manager, an asset manager, a real estate broker and developer with over 17 years of experience in the real estate industry, and has been involved in over $100 million in real estate transactions in both the development side, the asset management side, and also property management as well. So he's the managing partner at Resolute Realty Development and Management. So he has a lot of experience in not only building his own business, but also helping a lot of real estate investors in managing their assets as well. So we'll be digging into a lot of that today. But Ryan, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for taking some time and, uh, and joining us here today.

Thanks, Kobe. Appreciate you having me on.

Absolutely. So before we get into anything, before we get into today, I would love for you to have an opportunity just to share a little bit about yourself and a little bit about your background and how did you start building up your business to where, you know, you're running one of the top real estate asset management firms today.

Sure. Um, started 17, going on 18 years. Um, we're in our 18th year now. Um, I grew up in— I, I grew up kind of in the business. My dad had low-income apartments, and, uh, when I was about 12, 13 years old, wanted to make some money, started mowing grass. Um, that was the first job. Um, then I get— then because there's maintenance and stuff all the time, that, that gradually moved over into, into doing some of those, um, smaller maintenance tasks. And then around 2006, I got the bright idea with everybody else that I was going to be an investor, and my dad and I were going to buy some stuff, um, right before the Great Recession. And luckily, we didn't— we didn't get a whole lot done before we got licensed in '08. Um, we picked up a couple things that we were managing for ourselves. And in that process, I had no plan on being a property manager, actually. I was just going to be an investor, was just going to third-party, third-party the management side. And when I, when we were interviewing people, I started to notice that they didn't really have as much experience as I did growing up in it. And, and a lot of it just kind of, you know, some of the smaller PMs back then, uh, it was a little bit like the Wild West. So, um, my wife and I, we just kind of talked, we're like, well, might as well just get licensed and just start doing it for ourself. Um, kind of the, you know, the American way in some ways. Um, you will hear me make counterpoints to that now, but, um, That's how we got started. Went through the Great Recession, one of the, one of the most— I did have a friend, a very close friend of mine, he was in real estate. I was kind of asking him questions and he said, he told me during the Great Recession in '08, '09, when things were really hard for us to find deals at all. I mean, there were deals everywhere. It was really hard to find work to get paid brokerage fees. But during, I mean, during that recession, during COVID those are two of the biggest learning experiences that, you know, in my career. Everything else just kind of ebbs and flows with the, you know, with normal market cycles. But, um, those two things really helped us, uh, grow. And then through 2016, let's see, after 2012, there was a big push in the investment side of things. So that's, that's really where our business ramped up. It was just kind of like catching the wave, catching that cycle. Then we got into offering services for flips. So then we did, I don't know, just under a couple hundred flips, I think, between managing projects, owning them, and flipping them ourselves. That eventually, that process, once you've done enough flips and you've had enough surprise expenses, you start asking yourself, how do we get this to where I can manage that a little better? So that pulled us into ground-up, ground-up development. Started building homes, brand new spec build, got stuck with a few of them and had to, you know, had to manage that market cycle. And then that's, that's just gradually that stepped up into neighborhoods, bigger, bigger developments, commercial developments. Yeah, so I mean, just one step at a time for us is really, really probably the easy way to put it. Just keep putting in, putting in the effort and taking your licks.

Yeah, and you've been in the business for, you know, over 17 years now, so, um, you know, not a lot of people can, can say that, right, in the, in the real estate industry. A lot of people, especially if they've started out at the time that you did around 2006, um, they probably didn't make it past maybe 3 or 4 years. Because of the Great Recession, but you guys were able to make it through that. So you mentioned that was one of your biggest learning experiences. So what were some of the things that you would say are pretty big takeaways from not only surviving through 2008, but, you know, being able to, you know, retain those lessons that you're able to, you know, still implement in your business on a day-to-day basis even now?

Probably the biggest thing is never overpay and understand That's a, that, that's a cliché term. So let me, let me try to dive more into what that means. There's market value and there's investment value. If you don't know the difference, you're probably paying market value. Market value is not bad. Market value is just where, like, what things cost. That's the easiest thing. Appraisers, appraisers are constantly providing that, usually in residential retail, when you're not doing investment flips or something, you know, those are usually retail market, market numbers. They're not investment numbers. Then when you get, when you get the wholesale guys that come along and they send you 85 letters about buying your house and they're always offering you like $0.70 on the dollar, that's like investment value. That's probably the easiest way to understand the difference there. If you're not pricing that in, ahead of time, if you're— if it's not a planned strategy, you're basically spec— speculative. It's speculative real estate and it's high risk because you're not pricing in the risk or the money you're going to make for the risk you've accepted. When it works is when the market is constantly appreciating. The cycle we just got done with, with COVID you had a massive amount of, you know, um, appreciation all at one time. Super easy to make mistakes and not realize you made mistakes because you made money. So to you, I didn't really make a mistake. Um, it's a lot riskier than people think because you're riding— like, especially in COVID, you had an artificial injection of cash into the market that just naturally drives everything up. You have accelerated appreciation. It's not normal. And by normal, what I mean is look at like 30 and 50 years back and like look at what average appreciation is for specific markets. Like our market, I think average appreciation was between 2.8 and 3.2. And even with the accelerated appreciation that happened, Uh, if you averaged it out, it still came in about 3.5%. So you'd have people that made a bunch of money, but usually that was either— that was either totally planned, they, they were in, you know, in '17, '18, and I, you know, I had some assets from there. Um, I, I, you know, I, I never planned COVID. COVID is not something you're going to know, and then the, the economic response to COVID, but One of the biggest things that I've learned through all of those cycles has more to do with knowing, knowing market cycles, understanding them, especially if you're going to get into the investment world. If, if you're going to broker and you're going to sell retail, um, great business, um, a lot of money being made there. It— you're, you're riding the market you know, you're advising on that. If you're— if you're jumping into the investment side of it, um, it's really knowing the cycle. It's, it's understanding, you know, expansion, how expansion works, when equilibrium is hit, when you're in hyper-supply. Hyper-supply is the other side of the cycle, which is when basically things get re-evaluated. We're going through some of that right now, um, where stuff that was sold before interest rates went up, um, some of those valuations are no longer good valuations. So it's, it's really, it's really studying the craft of investment and not, not just rolling the dice. I mean, there is, there's an entire world of real estate investment that's strictly rolling the dice. Um, the one thing I've learned by— and I have rolled the dice and I've lost money and made money— but, um, that's probably the biggest thing I learned out of the '08 crash. Like, one of the things, one of the things I saw there, because you had, you had a bunch of, you had a bunch of people that were, they, they were dumping all their money. Good hardworking people making, making decent W-2 wages. They They're dumping, they're dumping their money into investing. They're trying to do sound financial practices, not realizing they were on an artificial bubble. That if you, you know, if you— what's that movie? Um, I'm not remembering the movie.

The Big Short.

The Big Short. There it is. Um, The Big Short. Hardly anybody actually knew what was happening and what was going to cause that. So some of that's completely impossible to plan for. Um, but, but it, it's a good example of, of just paying attention to kind of like what's going on. If something feels too good to be true, it probably is. And, uh, if you can't really poke a hole in the risk and find the risk, then you don't know where it is. And that's the scariest thing. Don't assume just because everything feels great that That should— that makes me more nervous if I don't know where my risk is. That kind of stuff makes me more nervous to where I got to figure out where the unknowns are.

Yeah, that's a good lesson. No, it's, it's a good way to explain kind of what, what went into your mindset and your thinking and some of the things that you took away from 2008, because there's a lot of investors or even a lot of people who are getting into investing maybe for the first time that when they see an opportunity that they don't necessarily see any risks. They feel like this is a, you know, for them to be able to go in there and, you know, it's going to be a home run right away. Where you having had over 17 years experience knows that whenever you're evaluating real estate investment opportunities that you have to understand what the risks are and be clear. And if you aren't clear on what the risks are, that actually makes it even more risky. Is what you're trying to say.

Yeah, 100%. And it's, um, the day— I think the dangerous thing that I've seen— by dangerous, and what I mean by what I've seen is we have helped a lot of people out of a lot of tight situations. Sometimes they've lost money, um, they felt like they did everything right. They, you know, they talked to a professional, they they thought they understood the market. And a lot of times it's people, they, they come out of, they come out of the higher-end markets, usually the coastal sides, where their valuation on their properties have gone up. They've got lines of credit, they want to put those lines of credit to work. They come to the middle of the country, um, where it's a little bit more affordable to get a hold of some of those products. The risk there is strictly, do you know how to— do you, do you know how to invest in a tangible asset that's, that's not totally passive? You have to understand the market. You have to make market decisions. Um, do you understand those markets? And if you're going to do it, can you afford to lose the whole amount that you're putting in? Um, If you're okay with all that, those are— that's sound financial principles. If, if you're super nervous, I mean, that's usually even what I, what I ask a lot of young investors. You're probably super excited and super nervous at the same time. You never, you know, aside from buying your house, you've never spent that much money usually on one thing the first time you do it and you get uber excited and your ego doesn't want you to think about losing. I'm not going to get into my negative headspace, not going to think about losing the money. You do need to think about losing the money and you need to write it down. You need to get those feelings out and you need to, because sometimes those feelings are actually telling you something that if you listen to it, um, for instance, I didn't know when I got into it, you can invest in real estate just through REIT stocks. Like, you can just start out, just put your money in REIT stocks. That is diversifying your portfolio to the real estate market and someone else is making the market decisions, the marketing decisions. You don't, you don't have to fully grasp everything that goes into the real estate investment world. I didn't know that. We actually have created a tool that is a spectrum that kind of shows the risk and reward of both of those. And with REIT stocks, you're in real estate, but if you're highly liquid, you can pull it out really quick. You don't have to make a lot of those decisions. Um, and then there's other people that they don't, they don't want to do stock. They've done stock. They want to learn it. Um, that's totally fine. I just, as long as you understand the risks that you're taking, um, and in some ways the gamble like some of it's gambling. If you don't know, like if it's true speculation, then it, then it, then it's just a form of gambling, just with an asset instead.

Yeah, exactly. And you mentioned that that's something that you guys have done, you know, as well, right? Rolling the dice and being able to basically take on the risk, right? Being able to kind of be okay with losing the money. Once you've rolled the dice, but also understanding that you could make money from those opportunities as well. So walk us through maybe some of those decisions, right? Do you guys have maybe an idea or some kind of plan where you know when you would roll the dice versus when you would maybe stay away from that? Is that something that you guys kind of differentiate based on the amount of capital you have, or how do you make those decisions? As they come across your table?

It's a good question. So some of it, some of it's a matter of being, being a control freak. Like, you, you want to know everything that you control in the deal. Anything you don't control is risk. One of those things, like, if you're going to go buy a lot down downtown, wherever you're, wherever you're at, you're going to go buy a lot. And you're going to spec build a duplex on it, your first set of risks are— is municipality. Are you going to be able to do that? Don't buy it until you— don't put any money that you could lose, earnest money included. Make that money contingent on whether or not it's zoned. That, that's the only way you control that because you don't control the municipality's decision, but you control whether or not your money's at risk. So it's just understanding the transaction, locating those places of risk, and then saying, what do I control? What lever do I have to control my risk, the amount of risk I'm taking, as opposed to— and I've done this, I'm guilty of this, and I'm going to tell you not to do it. Don't— this is when optimism can really put you in a bad spot. Don't buy that saying, there's no way they'll turn me down. Um, there's no way they'll turn me down for that build. There's something right across the street. And you give yourself all these reasons and you just go in and you're like, I'm going to offer them cash because I'm going to get a really good deal. And then you, you get the lot. You don't— you, you skip over some DD, some due diligence, and you, you purchase it without, without following the process because it's, you know, it's kind of a pain in the ass. There are people that do that, but they usually do it on a much bigger scale with a lot more properties and they can absorb, you know, they can absorb 1, 2, 5 out of 100 having an issue that they just have to liquidate. If it's your one, thing you're doing, usually your pockets aren't deep enough. I mean, you're, you're going to take a hit, or you're going to sit on it, you're going to have to pay taxes and mow it, that kind of stuff. Um, so understand, there— I usually do like a quad, um, of— it's knowns and unknowns, um, the known knowns, the known unknowns, and those are things that you know you don't know, but you can figure out. That's what due diligence is for. You have the unknown knowns, um, which are things you can find out, you just don't know yet. And then you have the unknown unknowns, and that's the scariest part, is what are the things that could possibly go wrong, and how am I, how am I strategizing ahead of time? Once again, you know, entitlements, which is your zoning, your ability to do whatever you're going to do to the property, even if it's redevelopment, even if it's flipping, which is redevelopment. Get to know the cities, get to know, get to know the people sitting on the BZA or the planning and zoning, have conversations with them about the property. The most success we've had on development has really been about those relationships. Um, and some people have asked, like, we're doing a development now, and one of the, one of the things that we did, I went into town and met with the town, and we just asked them, what do you want this land to be? Like, if you, if I gave you 3 wishes and you could wish one on this, what do you want it to be? They told us and we said, okay. So we went and we designed that and came back, and that opens up a little bit more negotiation with things that we need to make that development work. Um, it, in some cases, it allows you to, to get through some of those entitlement hurdles because, because everybody's on the same team at that point. It's not tug and pull. You're— I mean, you're always going to have neighbors that may not want you to develop land or whatever, but, but that's, that's one of the ways that I've learned to control some of that. Another thing, like if you're in the, if you're in the transaction, you got to keep in mind, especially the investor and the— depending on which hat you're wearing. An investor is one thing, a developer is another thing. The broker, the seller, those are all different hats looking at the same deal. And the broker's job is to get it across the line, right? That's, that's their focus on taking care of the buyer and the seller and is to get across the line. If you're the investor and the developer, you got to keep that in mind all the time because not everything, not everything they tell you is, is workable for you. So A tangible example would be piece of ground, uh, they were wanting me to close early. I didn't have entitlements. I didn't, I didn't know if I could build what I wanted to build on it, and they kept pushing me to close, kept pushing me to close, and I just kept saying, until I have this, I, I am not closing. And, you know, that, well, if you're not going to close, we might take it away. That's fine. Like, that's just You know, that's my line in the sand. I'm not crossing it. For me to avoid the risk, I'm not going to take that on. And, and that's normal. The broker's doing their job. I'm not mad at them for doing their job. I have to do my job as the developer and manage my risk. The broker has to manage the seller's risk. So just accept some of that stuff is just part of the process and, and, and just being able to to kindly tell the truth. That's been my— that's been one of my newer things lately, is, is learn how to tell people the truth directly and nicely. Like, it— don't beat around the bush. Don't, don't necessarily make it, um, make it feel good. You don't have to make it feel good. If it's bad news, just say the bad news. Just don't add negativity to it. But—

Right, exactly. And I think that's a good, good tip for whether if you're a real estate broker, an investor, or developer, or really anybody in business in general, that if you have something that you need to tell the other party, be straightforward with it, be upfront, because the more that you hold back, the more problems it's actually going to cause in the future. You don't have to, like you said, be negative about it. You don't have to add on your emotions or other emotions attached to, you know, as you're delivering that information. But if you need to tell somebody bad news, if you need to tell somebody that this can't be worked out, if you have your bottom line, that you are willing to walk away and just be upfront about it, be direct, rip the Band-Aid off, if you will.

Yeah, and you even just said something right there that's very important, and that's Knowing what your walkaway is, being okay walking away. Don't get emotionally attached to a deal. If you're emotionally attached to a deal to where you can't walk away, that's the only thing you should do. Like, it— I— that's what— because you're probably like, especially if the other side's very experienced, they probably already see it in your eyes and they are they're glad you're on the other side because they're, you know, they're, they're probably going to do okay. And that's, that's not speaking negatively about inexperienced. That's just speaking honestly about when you're on the other side of the table and you see somebody salivating over, over what you're doing, like, you're, you're, you love it. Like, I'm glad I got to deliver what they wanted. I'm also hoping that they'll pay me a little bit extra for that. Yeah.

And that's a good thing for everybody to remember as well, is that if you're so emotionally involved in a transaction that you need it to happen, that might be a good sign for you to walk away from the deal actually. So funny way to look at things, I would say. But I mean, there's a lot of real estate agents and brokers out there who are probably listening or watching this, or just in general, who have maybe not a lot of experience or no experience at all in investing, but they've maybe been in the real estate brokerage business and been doing transactions as an agent for, you know, the better portion of their lives and careers that want to get into investing, that want to maybe get into real estate development as well. So for those people out there who have experience in the business from a different perspective, how do they get into becoming an investor? How do they get into their first deals? What are some things that maybe they're not seeing or they're not thinking about that they should, just because maybe they feel like they have more experience than they actually do because they've been in the business, but not necessarily from an investor's perspective.

Sure. I think the first place I would go is it's not, it's not overtly bad or wrong to, you know, to be willing to risk your money, try it, you know, see what's going on. I think I did some of that, and there was a point in my career where it was like, okay, there's a lot of people that have lost way more money than me. I should be listening to them. I should be asking them questions, looking for mentors, get in on some deals. There's a lot more opportunity. There's a lot more resources now for people to get get in on with, with smaller amounts of money— $10,000, $20,000, $50,000— where you can throw it into. And I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna promote any single one because I can't. Um, I don't— I, I also don't know everything there is to know in the back end about how they run their business. And, you know, they're going to give you all the disclaimers that you, you know, you could lose all of your principal. But there is an advantage to going in on what's called a syndication or a group and allowing your money to be part of a much bigger pile that can acquire a bigger asset that has, you know, more— you can, you can leverage, you know, economies of scale. There's all that kind of stuff. There are syndicators out there that will do that. That's an entire world where there's a lot of experience. There's a lot of mistakes that have been made. There is, there's additional risk there. There is also a bunch of experience in executing on multifamily properties. That's one of the biggest ones, but you can do it for anything. You can do it for commercial. You can do it for industrial. I'm sure data centers are going to be one of those things, um, you can get into. I would say probably the number one thing would be to track your data. Like, if you— no matter what you do, if you put your money into it, write down when you invested, write down what your plan was, write down what you wanted your, your return to be, write down what your expectation was. And then come back to it and make entries every month on how it's going, what's going on. Like, start tracking that, and then start tracking how you feel about it. Create kind of a record that you can go back and read. Um, it, it'll help you stay out of the overtly either positive or negative mindset regardless of what happens. You can at least go back and review it and you can learn from yourself. You can identify some of your own weaknesses. Am I overtly passionate about this one thing? Do I think— like, it's super easy. I should say it like this. I think most people like investing in multifamily because they've lived in apartments. And residential is the most tangible thing that they understand in real estate. They're afraid of commercial real estate because sure, you go there to eat at Chipotle or McDonald's or whatever, but do you really understand the inner workings and how it all comes together and where liabilities are? No. So you kind of avoid that, but you get, you know, the 250-unit complex. I get I get most of that. That's what most people think. Um, so it makes it a little bit more comfortable. I would even acknowledge that I feel super comfortable here. I think like that would be— that's actually risky. If you feel ultimately comfortable, you're not paying attention to certain risks. You're taking for granted things you think you know that you may not know. And those, those are the things. Like, investing is a journey. Like, it, it really is a lifelong thing, regardless of whether you're 25 and, you know, you're starting out with $10 grand, you're starting out with $1 grand, what, with $1,000, or you're in your 80s and you've got to manage a few million dollars to where you and your wife can live comfortably. Regardless, you are still in the investment world. You're just making totally different decisions. So this is basically a lifelong journey regardless of where you start. Take notes, make data points so that you can learn from yourself. You can especially start with knowing I want to make this return. I think the most, the most telling thing, if somebody says I want to invest in real estate, okay, I'm going to say why? I want to make money, or I read this book, or okay, how much do you want to make? A lot of times they may not know, and that's okay. So, you know, we talk through that, and then I'll say, okay, are you invested anywhere else? Do you have a financial planner? Okay, what are they getting you? Start comparing your investments because that's what's going on in the real world, like real estate is one thing in the, in the, in the full economy of the world. Bonds are one thing. Bonds impact commercial lending. They impact residential lending. So all of these networks are all connected. So the reason you need to understand what, how much money you're making over here is that's going to determine whether or not this is a good deal. If you can make 9% leaving your money over here, why would you put money into real estate and make 4 to 6? I mean, you're taking on more risk, you have more responsibility, your phone could ring at 3 in the morning. Now, if, if you think, I want to be a real estate mogul and this is this first step, okay, you're going to pay your dues and that's fine. But a lot of people, that's not what they want. I mean, I had one client, he bought the property to put his kid through school, and he called me and he's like, I want to sell the property. And I was like, okay, why'd you buy it? I want to put your kid through school. Okay, how old's your kid? 13. Um, okay, so you're selling it now because why? And, you know, and he told me, and I did, and I said, well, you're gonna have to find somewhere to put that money between now and then. You can do a 529. Like, if your goal is really to pay for your kids' school with this particular asset, you got, you got 4 or 5 more years before you can— you got 4 or 5 more years before you really need to make that decision. What's the real, like, what's the real driving force? And getting behind Getting people to really think about their why in what they're doing. Um, I think, I mean, for me, it would have changed a few decisions that I made. Um, some businesses I invested in, I wouldn't— not just because the businesses didn't particularly pan out, but when I looked back on it, I was trying to fill some other need when I did it. I was trying— there was something else pulling me into that, and I put money into it. I trusted the people that I work with. Um, so when— if you're getting into investing, I think the biggest thing is it's, it's really being very clear with yourself, because I think deceiving, deceiving ourselves is probably the most dangerous thing that we do as humans, and not being totally honest with why I'm doing it. And you may not know, but that's an honest answer. I don't know why. I just— I think this is— that is an honest answer. If you're— but if you say, I'm going to invest in real estate because this is going to make me 20%, well, a standard investment is not going to do that. You're going to like— typically you're going to need to develop, you're going to need to take more risk, you're going to have— you're going to have more moving parts. You're going to have to manage to hit that 20% in real estate. So that, I mean, that's one of my biggest lessons, I think, is, is really getting clear with yourself, really handling your emotions, and then writing it all down and, and, and create as much data about yourself and about the investment as you can.

Absolutely. You want to understand not just what you're getting yourself into in terms of the asset that you're investing in, but you need to understand yourself. And that's a big part I think a lot of people miss when they're, you know, not just for investing, but when they start in business. And, you know, I have a lot of agents that I work with who, when you ask them why did they get their real estate license, why did they become a real estate agent, a lot of them won't know or they'll have the wrong answer, right? They'll still say they can build wealth through real estate, which is not necessarily what an agent would be able to do. You could do that through real estate, necessarily through, through real estate brokerage, right? So yeah, that's a great, great lesson. I think for a lot of people to understand that is to know that this is— there's facts and figures behind your investment decisions that you're making. And do those facts and figures, do these data, data points that are not— can't be argued, do they match up with your drive, your intentions, and what you're trying to accomplish? Because a lot of times, Um, you're absolutely right, they don't, and it's because we're trying to, you know, deceive ourselves, whether on purpose or, um, not knowingly.

Yeah, and it's usually filling a gap somewhere that, um, I mean, money is a highly emotional thing, and if, if we're not honest with that, you can't manage it. Um, so Just knowing, just knowing that money is highly emotional. And, and yeah, I mean, I've been in the business long enough in different brokerages where, where they tell you the— I'm going to get in real estate because I'm, you know, because I'm, I'm going to build wealth. And, and honestly, I'm, I mean, I'm guilty. I'm actually guilty of that being part of the reason I got into real estate. Um, and then what you figure out is the brokerage side is one animal of real estate. It's— I mean, you got title, that's an entire business around real estate that makes money in one way. You got brokerage, you got lending, you got insurance. Like, there's all these things that real estate makes all those people a lot of money. Um, so it's, it's not just You know, it, it's not just that real estate is going to make you wealthy, it's properly implementing sound fundamentals to the market that makes you money.

Yep, absolutely. Well, Ryan, just want to say thank you so much for sharing some time with us today, and I really appreciate you, um, you know, sharing your knowledge and your value with us. I think there's been a lot of A lot of good information, a lot of new information that I actually haven't really heard before from today's conversation. Just for anybody out there who's listening to this or watching this that want to either get connected with you or just continue following you, what are some of the best places for people to actually reach you online? Sure.

The quickest way is LinkedIn. It's, you know, and then, or my email, ryan@resolutrdm.com. And we have a YouTube channel too. We put tips and tricks on there. Any of those, any of those ways, if you, you know, if you hit me up on LinkedIn, I, you know, I personally monitor all those. So, and/or email me.

Absolutely. Well, make sure to leave your LinkedIn profile and your email in the description, the show notes down below. And other than that, man, just want to say thanks again for being on the show. Before we let you go, is there any last any last tips or any last advice or just anything you want to leave with the audience before we sign off for today?

I think the only thing I would say is read as much as you can. And read more, read more books than you do online social media. Like, you'll, you'll learn a ton from, from other people without having as much distraction. That's, that's probably my number one thing that I try to get a lot of people to do. And if, um, I'm going to start putting out, you know, the books that we read, the books we recommend. So, um, but yeah, definitely try to make that part of, part of your life. Um, and I, I really appreciate you having me on, Kobe. It's been a pleasure.

Absolutely, man. Thanks, thanks to you as well, and thank you for tuning in. We'll see you in the next show. Take care.

Bye-bye.