POWC # 860:From 150 Flips to 252 Duplexes: How Not Overpaying Drives Success | Ryan Cadwell

What's one of your cardinal rules? And, and he goes, just don't run out of cash. Like, you know, you laugh because it's, it's simple. That's the truth. Like, if you run out of cash, you're going to get forced into the market. You're going to get forced to take a deal that, that's going to hurt.

Hello and welcome to Pillars of Wealth Creation, where we talk about creating financial success with a special focus on business and real estate.

I'm your host, Todd Dexheimer.

Now, Let's get to it. Hey, welcome back to the show. I'm your host, Todd Dexheimer. With me, I got Ryan Cadwell. Ryan, how are you doing today?

Good, Todd. Thanks for having me.

Awesome. Well, Ryan's the principal of Resolute RDM, an Indianapolis-based real estate firm. It's been involved in over $100 million in transactions, developments, asset management. And Ryan's CPM, and he's built a reputation to do a couple simple things, right? Don't overpay for real estate, always sell at market value and offer at investment value. So you've flipped, Ryan, you flipped over 150 houses. Is that right?

Yeah.

And currently you're doing some development of Duplexes, 252. Is it one community or is it individual duplexes?

Uh, this one's one community on 37 acres.

Wow.

Um, 3 phases. Yeah, it's kind of like a joint project with the city. Um, they really needed rooftops, and so we're— I mean, we're working hand in hand with them.

So is this, um, Well, we'll dive into that right away. So is this partnership with the city, is it a project-based, meaning is there low-income housing or is it— explain the project.

It's an affordable housing product. It's an affordable housing product. It's blue-collar, blue-collar town. They had a lot of— they're in transportation and distribution. Transportation, distribution, warehousing, and then they've got, they've got some manufacturing jobs. And they were bringing the— their mayor brought, you know, brought in these new jobs, they didn't have the rooftop, so they're, they're having to commute from further away. And some of the partners that I'm working with on that deal brought, you know, brought us in to help with the development part. Um, and then it, I mean, it's just kind of the way we do things. Like, I, I try to get in front of the towns that we're working in and working with and just ask them, what do you want? Like, what do you want? What do you expect, um, this to be? And, uh, and what's the best way we can serve, you know, serve the community? And it really, it really starts to kind of push a little bit of momentum Um, I mean, you still— it's still— so you got to deal with the towns and the bureaucracy and some of the, the, the red tape and their processes. But, um, yeah, I mean, it, it, it, it just allows us to kind of let them kind of fill in the blanks, and then we could get to decide whether it works for us or not at the beginning.

Yeah, so I can see there being some really good synergy with that and it working out really well, and with the city. I can also see there being some potential risks to doing that because now the city potentially— depending on the city, of course— but city maybe potentially feels like they've got a little bit more ownership or say in what happens if you kind of open that box up. But for this one, if you're— especially if you're— if it's affordable housing, um, the city's going to have its say no matter what. So you really, you do need to, to be very hand in hand with them. Um, what— talk to me, did you go to the city first? Like, what was the steps of this? Did you say to the city, hey, we want to do something here, what do you got, or, or what are you looking for? Or did you have the piece of property first and then approach the city?

So it actually got brought to us just through relationship contact out there. Um, This one happens to be in Missouri, and through relationships both with my partners and the general contractors pulling all the, you know, the buildings out of the ground, and then mutual relationship with brokers there. This happened to just be the, you know, the broker's family. Broker's family had that property., and he had a relationship kind of with the city. They kind of already knew what the city wanted to do. So that's, that's how it got brought to us was through, through people just knowing, knowing us, knowing what we do, what our track record was, just so that the viability, um, there weren't any issues as far as like, oh, can you guys actually get this out of the ground? Is this, this is truly a deal that you know, that we can do.

So it, it was mostly just through relationships and the city.

I mean, the city had already done a study. They knew they needed to add rooftops. Um, and through, through that relationship and then having those conversations, we just— the only thing we really did was we just kind of customized the builds to meet their need, and then it it fit like what we were doing. And to avoid the risk you mentioned, we just didn't do anything until we had agreements and entitlements and all that with them. Especially on Phase 1. I mean, some of the financial, some of the financial things we're working with them on, it could be different in Phases 2 and 3. But It's also a growth model that where, where we can kind of pivot, uh, we can kind of pivot with the market, how the market, um, you know, welcomes us in. We're not really forced to just build them, finish them as fast. I mean, we can build as fast as the market responds, or we can, you know, we can go at whatever pace.

You build in phases, so to speak.

Nice.

Yep.

Um, Talk to me about, you know, maybe working with the city a little bit, strategies, you know, what can our listeners learn from this experience from you, uh, maybe some difficulties or strategies or things that you've learned, uh, working with a municipality.

So I've actually been able to serve on a planning and zoning board in my past, and, and then having worked with different planning and zoning parts within the real estate process, um, both as a broker and then as an owner-developer. I think one of the things a lot of the big boys, like, they, they usually, you know, they have their thing. They're, you know, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna buy this, and I want to do that. And they kind of just go in and they just say, this is what we're doing, yes or no. Yeah. A lot of times I, I usually try, like, as soon as we As soon as I have a piece of property, my preference is to go to them and say, hey, we're looking at this deal. And instead of like forcing the idea of this is what we're going to do, it's, hey, I've looked at your, you know, I looked at your current use. I know what it's zoned for. I looked at your future use. I know what you guys want it to be. Here's what we were thinking. What do you guys think? So just come at it from a find a way to make it their idea, um, helps. It helps with the conversation. It doesn't create boundaries right away or walls, um, to where like we're just gonna, you know, we're the big bad developer. I mean, developers are usually welcomed by the mayors and then, uh, and then the public has different viewpoints depending on whether they're progressive or not.

And, um, and a lot of times it's figuring out what— figure out— figuring out what they want. Like, what do you guys want, and are we a solution?

Or, uh, it just kind of reveals the red tape, it— or the potential hurdles to where you can kind of get ahead of those things as fast as possible. Um, now until you have actually, you know, if you're going to go through the hearing process and you have actual hearings You're not necessarily going to know what the public's going to say, um, entirely. But I mean, a lot of times, a lot of times the, the officials and the people in the city, in the, in the city, they're going to tell you kind of like what's going on, what to expect, um, in order to, in order to get ahead of it and speed up the process.

Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. Um, it sounds like a fun project, uh, to, to be involved in. I'm sure you're going to learn a ton of lessons throughout the entire experience.

Always, man.

Yeah, always. Um, you know what, what made you go into developing, um, 252 units, uh, 252 duplexes, uh, out of, out of state, um, when you were flipping houses?

Well, okay, so we were flipping houses. We rode the wave through— again, a lot of what we do is relationship-based. So the answer to that, to the question, you know, in the out-of-state, it, it's all about relationships. It's all about people we, we had built, uh, trusting relationships with.

Where are you building these relationships? Because they're out of state, like, how are you building those relationships?

Um, I actually got asked to join an investor group trip in like '21, 2021 to go to the Ozarks. They have a big short-term rental boom that happened. Oh yeah. I mean, it was building before COVID and then after COVID. I mean, it was, oh, it was crazy. Whole neighborhoods of these things like it was a model I didn't really know or understand. I was on the trip because because we were looking at some RV parks, repurposing those. I have— I had more experience in the group with RVs, with the parks, the business, the business of that. So I was more there as both a potential investor, but also just having a little bit more knowledge on that side of things. And when we were there, we met, we met, you know, brokers, we met builders, we met all these people. And two of the guys were, were some of the GCs that we were, that we met there. And then that cultivated into a relationship. I got to know the things they were doing. Um, and like the friendship just kind of grew. And then, uh, and then we would have, you know, um, quarterly calls, maybe once a month we'd hop on the phone, just talk about what was going on. And that, that grew into when this deal presented itself in late '23. Early '24. Um, they just asked if, you know, something I'd be interested in doing.

Um, now to your question about how did I get out of flipping houses into this—

flipping houses kind of migrated into this through, um, the lessons that you learn in flipping houses. Um, you like, to a degree, anytime you repurpose anything commercial or, or residential you always have a limited knowledge of what's behind walls. So if it's not gutted, you can't possibly know everything. And to some extent, like, I got, I got a little bit tired of that. I got a little bit tired of the surprises, having the 20% contingency. The market got saturated with a bunch of people doing it too. And That transitioned into us doing just one-off infill builds, and then we were doing construction, new construction infill builds. We got into, uh, we partnered with the city of Indianapolis and, and we, you know, we were able to buy some of their lots that they wanted us to put affordable housing on. So we were building 1,100 square foot, um, very solidly built construction, but you know, great finishes, LVP, you know, quartz countertops, that kind of stuff. But it wasn't— I mean, nothing special. It was a box, had really, you know, 3 bedrooms.

But, um, were those rentals or were those to sell to homebuyers?

And we did both.

Um, we, we tried to Our real goal at the beginning was sell them to homebuyers. There was a market for the under $200,000. And there's actually one of the best parts about that. The hardest part about that is making sure that the numbers pencil because it's very, you know, very tight margins. Yeah, the, the easier part about that is usually always have a buyer, whether it's an investor or, or, you know, it's affordable housing product. And no matter where people are at, economically, you either have people, you know, when, when rates drop to 3%, you have people that are coming up into that price range. When rates go high, then you have people coming down, and, and it's a new product. So that's how we got into the new, you know, the new construction. And then once, once we did a few of those lots, I mean, I'd always had my eyes on obviously volume, economies of scale, help You know, they help with economic changes and more maneuverable. Um, and you know, it just kind of builds over time. Um, sure.

I want to shift gears a little bit. Uh, you talked about it earlier. Uh, I said you're— one of your philosophies is, is not overpaying. Um, obviously people overpay all the time. And continue to overpay all the time. I think everybody's got a different philosophy of investing in real estate, but talk to me about overpaying and what you mean by that and why you think it's so important.

Well, the real reason I think it's so important is because I've done it and I've learned the lessons from it.

How did you overpay? Like, when you say I've done it, like, what did that mean?

Well, I ran the numbers. I trusted, I trusted some of the analysis. I didn't deep dive. I didn't deep dive the market. I took, I took for granted it was my local market. I took some of the projections.

Um, I didn't project enough out. I wasn't, I wasn't fully honest about the current market we were in. And, uh, where we were at—

or a rental?

This one was just a— yeah, this was just a buy-and-hold rental that we were operating. And, um, I mean, you know, one of the ones that pops to mind is—

and there's ego. I mean, there was a little bit of ego in it, because— which is a— I mean, just cardinal sin in to me in investing. But, um, it was the previous operator was— hadn't rented, you know, hadn't rented units for a while. And we were like, oh, like we did our analysis, we're like, wow, he's way below market.

And so when we acquired it, we start opera— I mean, we put money into it, we were gonna, you know, we were gonna bring it into a higher a higher price point, offer, you know, offer better finishes and all that.

Yep.

We even had around there, there was even, you know, there was even evidence of, um, you know, gentrification. There was a bunch of properties that, that had, you know, that doubled in value with, with flippers doing stuff around there. So everything looked good, but I think we were just blinded by the a little bit of the ego of, oh, we're going to come in, we know how to do this, you know, we're going to fix everything up, we're going to take it to market. Market just didn't respond. And some of it's the perfect storm, you know, some of it the market shifts, people get scared, nobody, you know, the movers kind of hunkered down or the people moving are kind of, they hunkered down, they didn't, you know, and market rents, there's a lot of there was a lot of talk in '25 about, you know, market rents are going up, market rents are doing this, and a lot of that's just was— I think that it's just like too big of a, too big of a pool they're pulling that data from. Our market in Indy and actually the over Missouri, a lot of that was just flat. I mean, we don't have really big highs and really low lows. Um, and we just flattened out. I mean, we had growth after COVID. We had some, we had, we had some years. I think one year was 9% growth. Another year was 15% growth in rent. And then, but if you stretch that out and you did it over a 10-year period, it's still averaged to about 3, 3.5% growth.

You still—

right.

That's just how it goes. Right.

Right.

Even these crazy markets, like you look at like Phoenix, Arizona had 29% rent growth. But now if you stretch it out over a 10, 12-year period of time, they've had 3% rent growth.

Right, right. And, and, and it's about getting in front of that. But sometimes that's luck, sometimes it's patience, sometimes, sometimes it is foreknowledge. Like, you've done this enough, you, you know, you're expecting the bump, but you don't know the, you know, you don't know the, the windfall of of COVID Like, nobody knew that was happening. Um, and/or the, you know, the printing of money. I mean, the printing of money was okay, stay in real estate and time the exit because it's gonna— it was gonna inflate.

But yeah, right, it's just timing. The timing of real estate is impossible, right? It certainly is. Uh, but there also are indicators that you need to be looking at along the way and need to have some common sense too. It is what it it is. And you know what, you're never going to bat 1,000. You're never going to be perfect with it. You're always going to say, well, with the, with what the data I have, this is what I think. And sometimes that's not going to quite play out, uh, the way it is or the way it actually, you know, happens. So, uh, but if you don't overpay, I think you're gonna avoid a lot of those mistakes. To be deadly mistakes, I guess, is the biggest key. That's the thing, is it's about survival when it comes to purchasing an asset. You don't want to lose all your money.

And debt structure. I mean, back to the overpaying, and if you're— a lot of times newer investors, and we're doing it too, they're getting personal guarantees on you. So, and I think there's times when investors take a lot more risk than they realize they're taking. And especially if you're all— if your deals are constantly betting on the come, betting on hitting the proper appreciation, if that doesn't pan out, the only thing that helps you is time.

Yeah.

So now you've got to survive, you know, basically an anchor on your portfolio that's going to drag cash out of your pocket.

And, um, I mean, that's probably the biggest thing with overpaying.

It, it just— I was actually, we were— I was at a conference, uh, end of Q3 last year, and one of the big, one of the big boys in town, he was, you know, they were interviewing him and And they asked him about one of the things that when you're developing this stuff, you know, what's one of your cardinal rules?

And he goes, just don't run out of cash. Like, you know, you laugh because it's simple, but that's the truth. Like, if you run out of cash, you're going to get forced into the market. You're going to get forced to take a deal that's going to hurt most likely. And so it, and when you overpay, you're usually leveraged so that, you know, regardless of your rate, you can't fix, um, you can't fix that without time. And the proper job growth, wage growth, you know, that impacts everything too.

Yep. Yeah. And the debt structure is huge. If you have short-term debt and you don't have time, if you have long-term debt, you could have some time as long as you have the right amount of cash to get you through do a hard time, uh, certainly. But yeah, there's too many people, uh, that put in a lot of short-term debt and, you know, they get caught. So, um, I want to talk about lessons you learned from flipping 150 homes. That's a lot of properties to flip, and so certainly you've got a lot of scar tissue, uh, from doing that. But I want to talk about some of the lessons learned and how you were able to success successfully flip 150 homes and maybe some of them weren't fully success as you would like to see them. But to get that many homes done is pretty impressive. So let's talk about the systems and kind of what you were able to do to build that up.

So the system of that, you got multiple things and the first one's deal flow.

Knowing the right people, finding, finding the right flow of deals.

When were you flipping these homes?

When?

When?

Yeah, between 2016 and I think we tapered off in 2022.

Okay, so 2016, 2015, 2016, the flood of foreclosures hitting the MLS was was, was gone, right? Yeah. And so you weren't buying— were you buying these all MLS, or was there a lot of different strategies that you were using?

We had actually partnered with, uh, with a guy who had gotten himself into that whole HomeVestor thing.

Yeah.

Um, so he— I mean, the We Buy Ugly Houses, all those, you know, things. He, he was in a franchise, and he had figured out kind of the the lead flow. And then we were in the, we were one of the partners in that, in his lead flow where he was bringing them in. And then we were, we were doing all the work, turning them over. It was, it was a turnkey model for most of it. And so those were getting flipped into investors and then we were operating them. We were operating them for the investors. So it was a turnkey model where basically You know, we're doing all that. And then the investor—

you're managing them too?

Yeah, our management team, our management team had the, had the operations on them. So by the time, usually by the time they were sold off, we had already, we had tenants placed. I mean, so it had become a stream of property comes in, bids are done, work is completed. When work's completed, we're marketing it. Marketing it for placement. I mean, a lot of things at that time in the economy, they were just flowing. For us here, there was just a lot of supply in that—

what do we call that market? There were just a lot of homes downtown Indy that needed work, that had the opportunity, that were likely turned over in you know, wills or somebody passes away. They got this property. They don't necessarily want to do anything with it, but everything around there, it generated, you know, $1,000, $1,200 in rent.

So there was ways to, you know, finagle those deals. Right now, deal flow, you know, to compare then to now, deal flow is just not as great.

Prices are probably much higher. So it just doesn't. Pencil out like it used to.

Yep, you're saying no a lot more.

Yeah, I mean, and that's just the, the rents compared to the prices of houses. I, I just, I, it's hard to justify purchasing a, especially a house or even a duplex, uh, because the rents aren't there for to support it for the most part right now.

So, and a lot of that duplex, yeah, a lot of that duplex, triplex, quad, like even though we operate in that market, a lot of our clients are, are still holding, holding from, from prior years because they bought right. The math, every, all the numbers still work. If you're buying, you know, above a 1 on the 1% rule, I mean, even probably a 1.2. But as soon as, as soon as you say that, you're priced out, like you're not going to get a deal done. Most people aren't selling for that anymore. Because we just lived through, you know, a time that, well, technically a lot of the people that are owners have lived through two crazy times. The first one was the financial crisis, '08 to '12. Then you look at 2020 and then how that, what real estate world that created. But if you look over a 50-year period, like those are blips, that's like not normal.

Yeah.

So getting, getting back to like real estate really just operates like this as opposed to it, you know, just major opportunities.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We all want it to come back. We all want the major opportunities to come back.

Right.

We'll see when that happens. So you, so you bought, you would buy a distressed home or something that someone you just needed to get rid of, renovate it, and then you would sell that to an investor and with a tenant placed, and then you would manage that tenant. So you're getting income on the sale, is that correct? And then you're getting income on the continual management.

As long as we were the owners. So we were also part of a group, like if we were the owners, yes, you'd get, you'd get money from the sale, you get money from— we, you know, we would make money on, you know, doing the work and having the crews. And a lot of the crews were built because we'd been around since '08 and we had our teams were built up. Um, did you have money on that? Um, and then, and then when you, when you flip it to the, to the buyer, you get money there too. Yeah. Yeah.

And then continually manage it. Um, dealing with contractors can be, can be interesting. Uh, you know, talk to me about, uh, some of the maybe best practices that you have, uh, for dealing with contractors, maintenance people. Uh, that's a whole beast in itself, in my opinion. Maybe something, one or two things that you do, you think you guys do really well to manage, you know, that side of the business.

So over—

I mean, we, we've obviously learned this lesson to get to this point. Like, we didn't always do it this way. One of the things, one of the things I try, um, to always make a point of is whatever you— whatever my expectations really are, say that up front. So that way, yeah, like Don't hem-haw around and don't, don't, don't get into your feels about, well, he's going to get mad. They probably are. Like, it, it, depending on the contractor, depending on if it's a business, if it's a solid business that's operating well, they're probably going to charge a little more. You got to figure out what you want to exchange.

Do you want your time managing someone that may be a contractor because Some days he doesn't want to show up. Yeah.

Um, smoking pot on the job, whatever it is.

Yeah.

Yeah. Those kinds of things. And, and you, and, you know, to some degree, it was always like, I just wanted to manage, manage my own expectations, communicate those expectations, and then when they're not being met, have the hard conversation, and then don't be afraid to fire and replace people. So have a backup. I mean, we were trying to implement almost like, almost like a football depth chart of, okay, plumbers, we have this, these guys, this is our starting, this is our backup. And to where if one guy got squirrely, you know, sometimes when they, sometimes when they're making good money, you start to see their bids going up and you just always have to have a backup plan so that you're not hamstrung. We've learned that lesson the hard way too, where when you don't have any other option, you're just, you're trapped. And, and, and really it, the managing of people is just about managing relationships and constantly looking for people and, and then communicate with, like, when you bring somebody on, clearly communicate, this is how we work, this is how you submit invoices, this is when you get paid. And set those standards. Like, they— a lot of contractors want to be paid as soon as they're done.

Like, we just told them on the job right there, they want you to meet them.

Yeah, and rightfully so. Own— like, own their fear and, and understand. Um, I mean, most of us have gone through something where somebody hasn't paid us, right?

Yeah.

So let them know that that's, you know, you know what that feels like. You understand that's what they're afraid of. Here's 3 people that work for us, ask them if we've ever not paid them. Like, and then once, you know, once they get on the 1st and 15th for us is what it, is what it amounted to. And then we also told them, like, you have to have your invoices in 3 days ahead of time.

Now, hard and fast rule, we tried to make it toward 90-95% of the time, that's the way it worked. You got to have your invoice in so we have time to process it. We're not— I don't want to do this last minute stuff, um, because that weighs on to— it weighs on to your staff. It, it starts to create, you know, may— if the staff went home for the day, then we got to shut down family time to take 10 minutes to go get this guy paid.

Yep. Now, at the same time, um, if you do them a favor Communicate it. Yes, this one time we're going to do this, but keep in mind next time, next time, you know, you're cashing in your favor. I mean, just be upfront and say it with a smile. I had to learn how to be kindly honest.

That's huge. That's huge right there though, too, is if you set an expectation and then you say, but this one time I will pay you on the job. Like, right, that's it. Like, this is the one time, just because I want to build this trust. But what you don't do is you show up on the job and then pay them without saying that, right? Because then they expect that. Then they— well, last time, well, last time, well, you're screwing me this time. Like, what's going on? So yeah, you got to make sure. I like those. So you have, you know, communicate expectations, uh, manage expectations, and then fire quickly and have, have the, the deep field, have that backup lineup, uh, Those, those 3 things are really key to running successful— well, quite frankly, successful business in anything, but for contractors for sure. Ryan Cadwell, got a couple last questions I want to ask you. What's a mistake that you've made and how have you learned from it?

I think most of my mistakes come down to probably two characteristics, and it's either ego and feelings and going too fast. So I get emotionally attached to a deal, like, like I said earlier, like I, I start getting overly confident in our ability to deliver. Those are all signs of, okay, back up, slow down. Um, get robotic about this. Like, is this really a deal? Should you be saying no? Yeah. Um, the— that's probably the big— every mistake I've made, I've— that— I mean, it, it's cost you money. I just call it, you know, on-the-job tuition. Um, it usually comes down to those things. Uh, moving too fast, not listening, and, and having something to do with ego or my feelings.

Yeah, yeah, I'm probably right there with you. They, they, uh, seems like it always has to do with something like that if you really boil it down. Um, all right, so favorite book you can recommend to our listeners?

I'm reading a book right now by Sarah Bakewell. It's called How to Live a Life on Montaigne.

Um, and it's just 20 different Montaigne was a philosopher in France in the 1500s. But it, it, it, there's 20, like the way she boils it down is there's 20 different approaches to like how to live life and different examples that come out of Montaigne's life. And it's been a really good book. That, and then the other book I'd probably recommend is River of Doubt, which is about Teddy Roosevelt's trip Through the Amazon.

Interesting. I've not, uh, read either of those, so, so good to see two new books. Um, Ryan, last question: what are your three pillars of wealth creation?

Know what it is you want, know why you want it, and then make sure, make sure you have more nos than yeses. So the The quantity of your nos equals the quality of your yeses.

Love that. Why do you think that's important to say no more than say yes?

I think it goes back to the first one, which is know what you want. And the majority of us want freedom and a form of it, however we define that. For some of us, it's time. For me, it's usually time. Time is the one resource we can't make more of. We can make more of just about everything else. And if you say yes too much, um, that, that attracts, that attracts more of the, you know, energy vampires, time vampires. When you say no, you start to set boundaries. People start to understand expectations. I think, um, you, you get to be more of yourself, uh, because you have boundaries, because you have things you won't do. Um, and anybody, I mean, anybody to me that tells me yes too much, I get a little nervous because they're probably also telling other people yes a lot. Yeah. So at some point I'm probably gonna lose them. Um, so I mean, for me, I love, you know, I love when people tell me no. A lot of people say, well, like, here, no. I'm like, well, no at least tells you like where they're at. And yeah, and you can get to know them.

But yep, yep, yeah, you say yes too much, you're just going to spread yourself thin and, uh, and you're going to do nothing well, right?

Right.

Quality suffers. Yeah, 100%.

Everything— doing everything, uh, just okay is not going to get you where you want to be. So Ryan, really, really appreciate this. Appreciate you, uh, being on the show. Um, how can our listeners get in touch with you?

Uh, just look us up on LinkedIn or resolutrdm.com.

Awesome, Ryan. We'll put, uh, that also in the show notes. Uh, listeners, reach out. And again, really appreciate you, appreciate the time and value you're able to add to the show.

Appreciate you, Todd. Thanks for, thanks for doing this. I know you're like over 800 episodes, so it's a good job on— yeah, good job on the consistency, man. Appreciate you.

Thank you. Hey, thanks so much for listening.

I appreciate you being a loyal listener. Say, I would love to have you go on to our Facebook page and subscribe, uh, give us a thumbs up, go on to iTunes or wherever you listen and give us a rating and review. Don't forget to subscribe. Your rating review just helps us push this out to more and more people and continue to grow our audience and hopefully positively to affect a ton of people out there that really need this and want this. So, uh, the other thing I've got for you is a free ebook on my website. So go on to VentureDProperties.com, VentureDProperties.com, and download our free ebook on real estate and on syndication. And I've got some data points in there, some really good stuff for you. So I'd love to have you take a look at that. It's free. I'm not expecting anything from it. Uh, and also, look, if you want some help in multifamily, want some help learning, growing, getting your business off the ground, I would love to talk to you about what it would look like, uh, to work with me potentially and see if that's a good fit. So you can go to coachwithdex.com and check that out, and we can definitely have a, uh, call. Thanks a lot for listening. You make it a fantastic rest of the day. I'll catch you on the next episode.