Aaron Tan - Consistency Beats Intensity

Let's say you have no goal, you're walking around in circles, then what's the point? You're just going to freeze there. If you have a goal but you're not moving forward, then what's the point? And all it takes is just one step. One step. And if all you can do is one step, then you will get there. It's just a matter of time.

Welcome to the Yoga Den. Are you a stressed out cog in the corporate wheel? Do you find yourself asking, what am I doing and why am I doing it? Then the Yoga Den is the place for you. I'm your host, Ryan Spence, AKA the big law dropout, writer, yoga teacher, and your guide on the path to well being through yoga. Yoga helped me find my purpose, change my mindset and my life. And in this podcast, I'll share how to live a life of intention. No reaction. Each week I'll be talking to a variety of guests, uncovering pearls of wisdom to help you figure out where you're heading to, where you really want to go. I'll. I won't find your purpose for you, but I'll help you plan the route. So sit back and grab a drink. I've been expecting you. Hello and welcome to episode 16 of the Yoga Den podcast. This week's PSA, I'd like to say is whatever you're thinking of doing, just start. Don't overthink it. Don't look too far ahead. Just start. And if you can, just start, take a step every day, be consistent. You'll be surprised at the progress that you can make. But for a lot of us, we get into our own heads. I know that I have. And you start to talk yourself out of the thing that you're trying to do. I'm not good enough. People like me just don't do that. What if I fail? And all of these thoughts churn around and six months a year down the line, you're still in the same place you were in than you would have been if you just started. And this is something that I talk about with this week's guest, Aaron Tan. Aaron is a former copywriter in the ad world and now a yoga teacher at home yoga here in Singapore. And we talked a little bit after class. I'd been to a few of his classes and he runs his own podcast, so we kind of share tips and geeked out on podcast stuff. And I, I was really pleased when Aaron agreed to come on the show. And what was interesting about this conversation is that it kind of went in a Slightly different direction to what I had initially planned, which is great. We talked about him trekking in a pool, we talked about teaching yoga, we talked about life in the ad world, and we also talked about podcasting. But we tied all of those things together to the subject of this week's psa. Just start of just getting down to it and of not overthinking the thing that it is that you want to do. So I really enjoyed this conversation with Aaron. I think that you can all take some great tips away from what he has to say. We had a really good laugh both on and off the air. And yeah, I'm looking forward to talking to him again and keeping in touch and seeing how his career in the world of yoga progresses. So for now, sit back, grab a seat, and let's do this. Today in the yoga den, we have Mr. Aaron Tan. Aaron, how you doing?

All right. Thank you for having me. It is such a great setup. I'm very excited.

Thanks. It's good to, Good to have you here. Good to have a fellow podcaster. Only the second Pedro was a podcaster, but you are. You are currently a live podcaster. So, yeah, it's. It's good to have someone with some of the. The technical know how in the room and yeah, geek out.

Geek. Geek out is for sure. Because, like, I feel like the setup that you have now is so impressive. Like, compared to mine, mine is just like one my. You got like your whole. You got your booms, you got your shock absorbers, your mixes and everything going on. It's so, it's so interesting to see this from this perspective.

Yeah, no, thanks. I mean, as we were saying before we came on air, I'm the type of person who, if I'm going to do something, I like to go big. And I was like, yeah, I don't need all of this, but I'll just do it. So I invested the money and also part of the investment process. It just means that I have to do it, otherwise I've wasted my cash.

So, yeah, you're accountable for it now. You have to do it already.

Exactly, exactly. So that, that was my, my take. And so, yeah, for anybody out there who's thinking of starting a podcast, and we'll probably talk a bit about that later in this episode. You don't have to go as far as I've gone. You can literally start with your phone if you want to, but. But yeah, as I say, I, I went big because that's what I do. Anyway, super, super cool to have you here. We've kind of talked about doing this for a while, so good that you're now here with me. So we, we met relatively recently, although I've known you or known of you for a little bit longer because obviously you used to teach at one of the studios I used to go to and now you teach at the studio that I currently go to and I've taken a few of your classes. So yeah, it's kind of great to have this opportunity to get deeper into some of the conversations that we've had. So let's start with telling me about your life before yoga. What were you doing and why were you doing it?

The, the origin story that everybody asks. Okay, well, hello everybody that's listening to the Yoga Den. My name is Aaron and I think I. Before, when I think my yoga journey started unintentionally. Right. Like I think most people's yoga journeys started out unintentionally. It's always someone that they ask, hey, you want to come to your class? You want to experience the same thing I'm experiencing? And so my, my girlfriend at the time, she was doing her TT training.

Okay.

And then she was like, she was mocking me, you know. Right. You know, you know, boyfriend duties. So you have to like, okay, yeah, I'll be your guinea pig.

Yeah.

So. So yoga back then to me was a very female thing. I didn't really understood it. I was still very close minded to it. I was just stretching, I'll just do it or whatever. So then she was in my room. She was, she was, you know, just running me through a sequence. I did it and I had no idea what to. How to breathe. You know, I had no idea how to engage my ujjahi breath. So then I was just panting and then I was like sweating and then, you know, just kind of rookie mistakes that people make at the start.

Oh yes.

So then I was, I'll just doing it. But then the few things that I realized after that first session with her that was my first ever yoga class was with her was that it's not easy. It's not easy. Right? And I, I think I realized that I was, I was just quite naturally flexible for a guy. And I liked it. Like, I didn't know what I liked about it, but I liked it. The feeling or the, maybe the. Was that the flow state because you're focusing on balancing and all this kind of thing. So unintentionally I was aware of it, but then I didn't know why I liked it. So I was just like, okay, I liked it. And the end. Then she mocked me a few times. You know, she did it a few times and I was there. And then I learned a little bit more about Ujahi. And I realized that how the breath helps me sustain into the whole, like, 20 minutes or 60 minutes of the practice, because if you're breathing from your mouth, you can't sustain. So then these were some of the things that I, like, found out after that first class. So then we broke up. And then that was it. That was that. Then I think a couple of months after that, a friend of mine who was. She was. She was a yoga practitioner. She went to ym. Then she asked me, you want to go to ym? And I was like, okay, I'll go. So I went every Sunday, 4pm for power class at Old Orchard 22. And then once, once a week, or like, maybe like twice a month, then once a week, then twice a week, then three times a week, then twice a day, and so on and so on all the way until it came to a point where, like, do I want to take my teacher training? That kind of thing. And I've always had. Yoga was always, like, a side thing. Like, I preferred martial arts. And I'm disclaimer. I'm not very good at anything. I just, like. I just liked the idea of, like, all right, I'm gonna. I'm gonna. It's more masculine. I liked it. I was gonna do martial arts. So then yoga was like the complement of martial arts. And then I think I wanted to do my tt, but then I was like, I'm gonna do. I want to wait until I can do a handstand before I can do my tt, because that will be my benchmark.

That will make you a teacher?

Yes, that will be my teacher. Once I can hang upside down, that will make me a great teacher. But I think after hanging out with more yogis and understanding what it really was about, and I think, like, if you notice me, like, Mayan. I was very close to Mayan. She's one of the teachers at ym. And she was the one that sort of nudged me to take it. So then that was when I took it. And then after you take it, then one thing leads to another and another. Oh, I have it now, so I might as well teach. I teach now. I might as well go full time, that kind of thing. Okay, long then. That's how it started before. Before I was teaching, I was a copywriter.

Okay. So for an ad agency or a creative agency. Okay.

So I was just writing like lifestyle articles and stuff like that. And I think I jumped around a few jobs before. I was always just doing random stuff. Copywriting was my longest job before yoga, which is not so. Yoga is my longest job. And then, like, I liked copywriting. I thought, like, because when I studied comms when I was in school, I wanted to be a journalist.

Okay.

Because you want to change the world, you know, that kind of thing. You want to. Yeah. You want to go like, reveal, you know, share the truth, you know, stand up for the minority or whatever.

Yeah.

So you want to do that. And then, like, I think I realized, like, copywriting was a. I'm not to shit on, like copywriters. It's. It's still. You need to write and write.

Yeah.

But it's more of like, I felt like I was. I didn't feel fulfilled because I was writing a lot of. About stuff that didn't resonate with me or didn't make sense to me. Like, you had to promote products, let's say, right? So then you have to write about how great the product is, even if you don't believe it. Or the more research you do about it, the more you realize, why am I still pitching this thing when I know that it's a bad product? Like, I can't think of an example, but, like, say something as simple. Like, say, McDonald's. If McDonald's asks you to write an article about how healthy it is, didn't that make sense? Like, oh, well, you can go eat the salad at McDonald's, but you know that it's weird. You're tricking people into eating unhealthy food or something along those lines. So I just felt it wasn't something that I enjoyed doing at that point. So then I think I stepped into teaching yoga part time first. I think everybody starts out part time first, then one foot in, one foot out, and then like, okay, this is all right. Four classes a week, six classes a week. Then afterwards, like a little bit more from 50, 50 becomes 60, 40 to 70, 30. Then I just took the whole leap to be a full time teacher.

Okay.

And here I am now.

Okay, so that's a good story to kick off with. And we'll start to unpack some of that as we.

I can see Ryan, like writing down stuff, ready to ask me stuff. Let's go.

So were you teaching while you were a copywriter? When did the yoga kick in for you? And was it something that you turned to because you were unfulfilled in your, in your job? Or was that kind of like a byproduct?

I think. I think yoga was a very, like. It played a lot of. It helped me in a very, like, a. Back in the background.

Okay.

That I wasn't aware of. Yeah, right. So, like, in, like, just exercise or just for going for a run, you feel good, but then the after practice, you feel a different kind of good, which I wasn't aware of at the time. That helped me, like, just. Just function as a normal person. Like, you know, you feel a little bit better after class. So then you go out into the world, you spread more good vibes.

Yeah.

Wait, what was the question again? How did. How did yoga and my job. What was it again?

This is the problem. You see, we speak to podcasters. They're so used to asking the questions that they didn't listen to the questions.

I was just going off on the tangents.

No, I guess it was. So what's common for a lot of people is. Or at least for a lot of the guests we've had on the show, is they've sometimes turned to yoga because, I mean, they're feeling burned out on their job. Yoga is kind of a release. It's kind of a way to escape some of that stress, and then they kind of get deeper and deeper into their practice, and then that kind of, like, moves them towards either teaching or. Or just being more consistent. And I. So I was just trying to get a sense from you in terms of. In terms of timeline, really, whether it was that you're in copywriting, and then that was stress and unfulfilling. So you went to yoga or whether you were sort of doing yoga before the copywriting, and then you just kind of got deeper into it because of the job or.

I think I was already doing yoga on a regular basis before the copywriting job.

Okay.

But it was sort of during the start of it or so. Because that was when I sort of got a little bit more into it.

Yeah.

And the more you practice, you start out just focusing on the asanas. Right. The physical practice of it. That's what. That's what entices you in. You want to do. You just want to work out, right? Yeah.

Yeah.

And then the more you practice, the more you realize. Or more things start to reveal itself, like the spiritual side of it or the ethical side of it. You learn a little bit more about the philosophy behind it and why you do things, and it all translates through the physical practice. It translates in many different ways in different layers. So then I think I compared it from the person that I'm becoming from yoga and who I was before and like, where am I moving towards? And then like, stuff like, say, like I was talking about the McDonald's thing about, like, you know, is this. This doesn't sit well with me. Starts questioning and, and, and I start to question these things. And when you question yourself, then your things start to shift already. You're not so convinced. Convict, convinced or convict, the conviction isn't there anymore. When you ask yourself, what am I doing here? Something is wrong already, you know? I mean, and that, that question is dangerous because sometimes you can't ask yourself that question in order to power through ignorance. Right? Yes. It's fine. I didn't just do the job. Just earn the money and don't. Don't question it. But then when you question it, yeah, why am I here? What am I doing? Why am I wasting my time? Oh, no. Am I wasting my time? Shit. Am I making the right decision? And it starts to repel. And then because of that, I mean, I'm not saying my old job was bad. I really enjoyed it. I still hang out with them sometimes when I go back to the office. But it's, It's. It just didn't resonate with me. I just put it that way.

Yeah, it's a. It's a personal thing. And I think that people shouldn't take from anything that I say here or anything any of the guests say here, that one way is good and one way is bad, because that's not it. It comes down to who are you as an individual and what works for you. And that's what you have to look at. And that's what. At least for me, and it sounds like for you, yoga starts to get you to sort of question. And once you do start to question it, it's like it's an awakening. And once you're awake, it's very hard to go back to sleep.

Once you're aware, once the truth is revealed to you, it's hard to unsee the truth. Right? Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. And so in terms of copywriting and feeling unfulfilled, because I like. I mean, I like the analogy you sort of made with McDonald's, but it could be with anything else. What. What was your average day like as a copywriter?

I think it's. It's the same like how anybody in a regular corporate or just normal job or you're at a desk, you're at a computer. I think any job that you're doing, you're at the computer. For like eight hours a day, right? You're. You're typing and looking at statistics, reading articles, whatever you're supposed to do. And that's pretty much it. Just different. Like any job, you're at the desk on a computer. That's how any job gets done. Unless you're like a barista or a bartender or something like that. So then that's 90% of the what you do. So then that's pretty much it. Like, yeah, I'm at the computer, type, type, typing. And it's. And it's like this, this they say, like, sitting is the new smoking.

Yes.

Right. Because you're just sitting there. You're hunching over and you're looking at all the blue light. You're not being out there in the environment. You're not meeting people, you're not socializing, you're not. You're not fulfilling what you need to fulfill as a human being. Yes, we need to. Yeah, we need to still do the work. But then how do we find balance? Or like, you know, just. We can't go around saying, like, quit your job because you're at a computer. That's not the point. Like, it's just through the yoga, you. You start to be aware of certain things about yourself. Right? It reveals, it heightens your awareness. So then you'll be able to be aware of what you want or who you are. And then through that awareness, that awakening, then you sort of realize, am I satisfied here? And if you are, then that's great because there is no right or wrong. It's not saying, like, what you're doing is bad. You can still be a copywriter or a journalist and make an impact. Yes, but then if, let's say you're. Or you can be any desk jockey and just make an impact, but it's what, what resonates with you. And can you fulfill that part of your, your, your, you know, that seeking? Because everybody's searching for something. Oh, are you? Right?

Yeah. No, everyone is. Everyone is searching. And again, what's interesting about that is that. So, I don't know, take your regular corporate job. I don't know what that is. Okay, let's take lawyer, because that's what I was. People have a certain view of what being a lawyer is, but as a copywriter, people have a certain view. And copywriting and I have friends who are in advertising and marketing and graphic design always seems one of the cool jobs from the outside because you're in a creative space, you're in a creative industry, and Actually, what I find interesting about this conversation and others I've had is that it doesn't matter what it looks like from the outside. It's all about what the person inside of it is feeling towards it. And yeah, you're still in a corporate environment. You're still, as you said, having to kind of do things that maybe you don't agree with or maybe aren't in line with your values. You're still having to sort of condition or sell things to people. Do you know, I mean, the ultimate aim is still to just make money.

Right.

And so the fact that it looks cool and creative from the outside doesn't necessarily change how it makes you feel as an individual inside that situation.

That's true. That. That is true. But it's unfortunate, like how nowadays jobs, it does matter whether it looks cool on the outside because people go around like, telling people, like, yeah, I'm a lawyer. And, and it's supposed to mean something like, yeah, it's a status. It's cool. It's a little cool. It's a little bit cool. Like if you tell someone, yeah, I, I do this, I'm an astronaut, that's kind. That's cool. That's cool.

Yeah.

But it also doesn't mean anything. It doesn't mean anything about you. Right. Like maybe back in the day, or the older generation would think, oh, yeah, data lawyer, data doctor. Because these people are supposed to be smart and clever and whatever. Well, sure, you need to be of a certain intellect to be. Be able to do that job. But that doesn't mean that I don't know the bus boy or the bus driver is anybody less. It just. The job doesn't define you. And if you think that the job defines you, then you're moving in this direction that isn't true to yourself. You're thinking that I'm a creative person so that I got to be in a job. To emphasize that, then you're living a false identity. You're not living your true self anymore. Because then if you take away that role, then who are you?

That is a very poignant point because it's something that I realize with hindsight, as I've kind of looked back now.

Hashtag, Hashtag big law drop off.

Exactly. Now, I've sort of looked back and it's one of the key things with her, and I realized it pretty quickly after, after getting out, is that one, I wasn't fully myself. There were definitely parts of me which weren't really present in that period. And I didn't Realize that at the time. But I definitely realized that going back, a key point is creativity. I was creative before. I used to be in music. And then I got into law. And it's like that creative sort of part of me just didn't really come out. And I was definitely tied up in the status of being a lawyer in big law. I mean, state. It was my identity. You go, you introduce yourself. And I do this exercise with my coaching clients. I say, okay, introduce yourself to me. And inevitably their introduction starts with their name and then the job that they do. And that's kind of like a large part of it. Maybe if they're a parent, they might mention that, but that's it. Then I get them to introduce myself. Don't talk about what you, what you do, what your job is. And it's awkward because we're so used to doing it. Like that's kind of who we are. And so if that's who you are, if that's then taken away and we sort of seeing it now, lots of people are being sort of laid off, maybe done. And with the pandemic and everything else, people struggle because it's like, well, who am I? Without the identity of lawyer at X firm or senior vice president at X Bank or whatever it is. So knowing who we are, when you ask somebody, who are you? It sounds a very straightforward question. But actually it's not because people struggle to answer the question.

The question is the same, who are, who are you? Right? Or what defines you? But then the answer is always. People misinterpret the answer as like, oh, I am the lawyer, I am the banker. But we're asking not about your, your ego self, your true self, like, who, like, how are you? I was having this conversation with my friend the other day. I'm not asking how are you? I'm asking how are you? You know, and that's the U with the, with the capital Y. And the. As much as there is a good reputation that comes with, say, I'm a lawyer, I'm a banker, there's also a negative connotation that comes with that. Like if, oh, oh, you're a banker, so you're super high strung, you're like always out, like you're hustling. And this kind of thing, like, it comes with that identity. So then what if you're someone that's really nice, but you're a lawyer, oh, your lawyers are all evil. They all go to hurt. So I don't really like you. It's so strange that. But it's what people, people suss you out by like when you, when people ask what you do for a living, they're not asking what you actually do, asking whether you are of status or are you someone important. And the fact that we do judge it that way, it's a bit unfortunate. But it's like, say even if someone told me like, oh, I'm a lawyer, I would still think like, okay, maybe this guy is intelligent, at least I know that because that is a benchmark. But then I was still like, it's up to me to find out who this person or whether he's nice or whether I want to make the job. Doesn't define the person. Yeah, it shouldn't.

Yeah, no it shouldn't. And it comes down to, I guess, self worth really. Because if you, if you value yourself, if you know that you, you're enough as you are, if you know your inherent worth, then it doesn't matter.

The shell of it.

No, it doesn't. Because that, that's what you carry with you. So whatever you're doing and so you can just say, well, this is how I am. This is kind of what I do. And it doesn't matter because it doesn't define you. And it's not something that we really talk about. It's definitely not something that I thought of. I mean, when I kind of made it to be a lawyer, particularly from the background that I was from, it was like this almost a badge of honor really. And it's not that, it's not that I lauded it over people or I was arrogant, but it was just something that it was nice to say when people said what you do. I'm a lawyer, you know, I mean, and I'm a lawyer at X firm or I do this or I do that. And even as I got late into my career and I started to sort of be a little bit unhappy and a little bit disillusioned because I was so tied up with that. It was so integral to who I was. It was very hard to see beyond that, beyond doing anything else. And even when I started to think about, I really do like yoga and I kind of like to be yoga teacher because also other people project their fears onto you. So it was always a question of, yeah, but how are you going to make money? And can't you just do it part time and can't just do this and can't just do that without sort of taking stock of the fact that. But that's probably what really makes you tick. And that's probably really who you are. And it's probably the way that you can make the impact that you want to make. And maybe law isn't it. Even though it is for you, maybe that's what it isn't. That for me.

That's true. That's true. I mean, like, you, You. You still went down this route and like, though that route has given you certain skills which has. Which has helped you in the future. So it's not like a bad choice. It's just like through that awareness, you made the right decision at the right time, and then like, you're moving forward from it or whatever, you know?

Yeah, no, exactly. And so, yeah, your identity isn't. Who isn't what you do. Your identity is, as we said, who you are. Finding out who you are takes work.

And your. And your identity will always change. You will always change.

Yes, we're supposed to. We're supposed to evolve. And yeah, going back to your. Your copywriting, not to blame your industry for that, but we are in a time where we are conditioned to. To aspire to comfort and to aspire to convenience. And the issue with that is that if we're permanently in this state of comfort, in this comfort zone, we don't take any risks and we don't grow. We don't see what we can really do, what we're really capable of. And that comes down to doing the work to find out who you really are. Because it's not easy. I mean, it took me a couple of years maybe of trial and error trying to sort of read different things. And again, it's one thing to read the stuff, but it's another thing to actually take the action because the action's difficult. I remember reading sort of personal development books. Be like, yeah, yeah, that sounds really interesting. And they're kind of giving you steps to what to do and how to do certain things. Like, yeah, but that's too hard. And I mean, I have my own habits, and I want to continue doing the same thing I was always doing. But then if you do that, you just get the same results.

There's no growth in safety.

Yes.

I think I had a thought.

Okay.

I had a thought, but I lost it. What were we talking about just now? What are you just saying?

Safety spout behind being conditioned to.

Oh, yeah, no, stepping into your. You were saying, like, it takes action, right? Yes, yes, that's my thought. Okay. So it's hard to do the thing that. That like to. To. To. To explore. I think what I wanted to say was that try new Things, right? Try new things. Because there's so many things in the world that you've never tried. And if you never tried it, you won't know whether you like it exactly. Whether is it yoga, whether is it like, I don't know, skiing or like cooking or baking, Whatever it is, right? Playing the guitar, you will never know what you enjoy until you try it. So I think it's about being open to it. Like say, when I first started yoga, I was like, as for girls, most people think that way, right?

Yeah.

But then like fast forward to a few years later and here I am. So had I never experienced that, I would have never gone down this path of who I am today. I would have still been maybe working in a corporate job or whatever. And I can't even see myself going back in that life now. And. But back then I could never see myself being in this space. So it's all about not holding on to, say, identity. Oh, I'm a guy, I'm a man's man, I don't do this kind of thing or whatever. I don't really want to do it. If you keep defending who you are and not be open minded to these things, you're not showing yourself any respect because you need to experience all these different things to know that. Okay, for sure, I don't like this, or I like this and maybe I want to pursue this. And if you give yourself that chance, you open up that door to experience. Because life is all about experiencing new things. So then through that experience, through that learning journey, what is it? Yoga or anything else that you do, it brings you to your higher self, Right? That work that you put in, so say being a father, it forces you to be of a certain caliber. You need to wake up in the morning, you need to, to be responsible, you need to put food on the table. So then that brings you to your higher self.

Yeah.

So if you off and just like, I'm going to watch Netflix all day, you're not going to grow, you're not going to do anything. Yeah, but you are just being stimulated. You're not experiencing anything. And the experience comes with the good and with the bad. You have to experience hardship, you have to experience all these bad things to grow. Because growth doesn't come from comfort.

No.

Yeah, because.

Yeah, no, perfectly. I mean, you put it perfectly because yeah, if you're doing the same thing, then there was no challenge, Right? And so if there's no challenge, then how can you grow? And how can you, how can you figure out what you are actually capable of. And in terms of yoga, because as you said, for a lot of people who maybe haven't tried yoga or maybe they've tried it and sort of walked away from it because people want to, just want to be good at stuff. You can't be good at something the first time you do it.

Right.

And I mean, you obviously said, I'm a father and look at my kids and they'll just try stuff and try again. I mean, they'll try and jump from one sofa to another. So not thinking about it, just try it. And if they don't do it, they'll try it again and they'll try again. And we seem to lose that as we, as we get older. And with yoga, you know, I mean, you'll have heard, I'm sure every yoga teacher hears it, oh, I can't do yoga because I'm not flexible. And the thing that I always come back with is, you mean the flexibility of the body means nothing without flexibility of the mind. You've got to have that open mind and you've got to just come to the mat and see where it takes you. Just like in life, you've just got to go, if you're really into something, just try it and see where it takes you and just start. Which brings me to, I want to sort of talk to you about that in relation to podcast because like, like me, you have a podcast and you start. I think you started a few months before I did. You started.

I started like last two years ago.

Yeah. And I don't know how it was for you, but the idea of walking out of a sort of a big law firm where I'd been for 11 years, and effectively you can almost hide behind a corporate brand in a sense because even when you're putting stuff out there, you're putting it out in the name of the brand.

Okay, okay.

But when you're doing your own thing, it's you, you're putting yourself out there, you're putting your thoughts and your feelings and your opinions and so then you're sort of open to whatever anyone wants to say about that. So. And that can put a lot of people off that, that sort of fear. What made you decide to, to start a podcast? And, and how, how was it for you? Did you, was it something that you just kind of like were like, yep, I'm going to do this, or did you have a lot of sort of self doubt and sort of limits and beliefs about that?

I never thought about the self doubt part until maybe in the Middle of stages. Because the first time I listened to a lot of podcasts, especially, like, the Joe Rogan podcast, and I have a lot of interesting conversations with my friends. So then I was like, I wish I could share this. I wish I could share what we just talked about with, like, say, me and my friend to other people. Because it was so helpful for me. And I traveled a lot back then, so, like, oh, I met all these interesting people and I wanted to just hear all these conversations. I want to share all these conversations that I had. So then Joe Rogan's podcast is very conversational style. It's just like him and his friends just chit chatting. And then it just becomes so profound. So then I was like, okay, I'm gonna start my own one. I'm gonna call it the Aaron show. Because I didn't have. So I bought my mic and I. And I bought it like maybe three, four years ago. And then I just recorded it, like two or three episodes with my friends. We just drank and then we just chit chat and it was horrible. It was horrible. And I just sort of, like, put it down and I never amounted to anything.

Okay.

And then I think when I went. When I got hired at yoga movement, then I was like, okay, I have access to all these yoga teachers. And part of, like, when I wanted to record my first Aaron show, right, the first one, there were a lot of yogis I wanted to chat with anyway, so I figured, okay, I. I'm not anyone famous, so I don't want to call it the Aaron show, because then it's not gonna. You don't even know what it is, you know? So, okay, maybe I'll just make it like about yoga. So I don't want to only talk about yoga.

Yeah.

So now I was like, deliberating. Okay, what about. And then blah, blah. And then like, so the title of it is called Mostly Yoga. So Mostly yoga talks about yoga and also, like, mostly about yoga, but also about other stuff. So it keeps it open.

Yeah.

So then that's perfect. I can talk about, like, fucking anything and about yoga. So it's like, perfect. And then I had access to all these yoga teachers, so I was like, okay, I'm gonna talk to you, you, you, you. The first time I did it, it was with episode one was with Vera. And then, like, I had my mic and I didn't. I didn't turn it on properly. So it was only facing me. So then it was facing her. And then my voice was soft and then there was an aircon. There was a rumbling. There was all these different mistakes that I'm making. And then I was like, oh, man, the conversation was great. But then, like, the quality was shit. So I think I don't want to post it. This is. Forget it. This is dumb. Then I was like, okay, I'm just gonna post it because I was trying to make my first episode perfect. Like, anybody, right? The first time you want it to be perfect. And then when I was recording my intros, I kept. I had a script. Okay, hi, guys. Blah, blah, blah. But then, like, I kept messing up my lines, and then I had to, okay, cut. Say it again. And then it just felt so artificial. So I had. So now I just do point forms. Or I just like. If I mess up, I'll just, like, make fun of myself, Right. And then I'll just wing it. And it sounds more natural when I do it, which is what I wanted. Which is the point of it. I wanted to make my podcast as authentic as I can. And it's not like a. It's not like a radio show. Like, hey, welcome to, like, it's 9:00am at the. Blah, blah, blah. And they had that fake voice.

Yeah.

So I don't. Like. It's weird for me, you know? And. And I wanted to maintain that authenticity and that honesty in. In my. In my podcast. So then why. Why do I have to script it? I should be able to honor that as well. Right? So I just speak and like, okay, yeah, these are my sponsors. Blah, blah. Yeah, it's 8:00pm today. I'm feeling hungry. I'm feeling hot. Oh, my mom's outside. Blah, blah. And then, like, if sometimes there's a bit of noises, I'll cut it out. But then I live. I live near the road, so then you're gonna hear bikes all the time. And I got annoyed every time when a bike drove by, I had to stop. And then, like. But then the bikes would never stop. So then I just kept like, whatever, I'll leave it in.

Yeah.

And then when I listen back to it, there's a. There's a little, like, it's a nice touch for some reason. It just feels natural. And I liked that vibe.

Yeah.

And then I wasn't stressing out over, like, making it perfect because it's never going to be perfect, but through that imperfection, it was authentic to me. So then I liked it.

Yeah, I mean, I. I liked it. So I discovered your podcast when I was thinking of starting my own. And I think I said on the show before saying that there Were no yoga podcasts out there. And then found that there were some. I was like, oh, yeah, but it's fine, they're all American. And then found some in the UK and then found yours here. Oh, okay. There are. But that was one thing that drew me to it is it was very. It was very natural. It wasn't polished, and you could tell that somebody wasn't trying to put on a neck. They were just being themselves. And yeah, I've kind of heard ones where you've kind of like talks about your mum making dinner in the background. You start to. It's like anything. You start to follow somebody down this sort of path, you start to feel like you kind of get to know them a little bit. And actually, so therefore it makes it easier. So when I. When I kind of first introduced myself to you at my teacher training, actually, and you just were just about to teach a class.

Yeah.

It wasn't, it wasn't like you're going to go and sort of introduce yourself to someone who's got this podcast and I don't know what they're going to be like, whatever. I kind of also almost felt like I knew a bit about who you were and what you were, which was great. And, you know, I mean, we had a good chat and then we subsequently chatted from then. And you're the person who's on the podcast. You're not a. You're not a different person.

Right.

But one of the reason why I was sort of talking about that and you kind of touched on some of those points along the way is this. This sort of thought that we need to be perfect, and if it's not perfect, then we're not going to do it. You know, I mean, if it's not perfect, we're not going to put it out. But I listened to something the other day, and it's something which I definitely subscribe to. It was a really big YouTuber. He's now got sort of thousands, if not millions of subscribers. And he was talking about his early videos and he's saying that, yeah, he's left them up because it shows growth. And I think that people want to see that progress. And by showing people that progress, then they were like, okay, well, they weren't perfect at the start. No matter how big they are now, Everybody started somewhere. And if people just hung on to that, I think they would start more things.

Right.

It doesn't have to be a podcast. You don't have to be a yoga teacher, whatever it is that you're thinking Now I'd quite like to try that. You know, I mean, just. Just go and try it. And, yeah, you'll likely be awful at it because you haven't done it.

Yeah, that's perfect. And that's fine.

That's fine. But you practice, and that consistency will kind of get you to a position where you're like. You can look back and be like, oh, wow, you know, I've kind of progressed here. This is great. And then you might continue with it, you might try something else, but it's building those habits of starting, being consistent and keep going and sort of just keep looking at the progress and not sort of think, this is wrong or this is wrong and I made a failure here, or what are people going to think?

It helps. It helps motivate people to, like, want to take that first step as well. Because if they know that, like, hey, this guy, let's say, oh, hey, Ryan's podcast. Super famous now. But then, like, back when he started, it wasn't. It wasn't very good. But like, but, like, yeah, because he just started, it makes sense. So if he can do it, if he's in this position now, maybe I can do it as well, you know? And you help motivate people. You help, like, give people courage to take that first step. Because, like, like anybody, like any famous actor or any famous musician, you look at their first. First auditions, it's going to be terrible. And because they kept doing it, it's the consistency that kept doing, like, say, for yoga or for martial arts, when you first, like, say, you're a boxer, right?

Yeah.

You start out, you get trash. You get trash every day. And, like, if you get trash and then you, like, I guess I'm not very good at. I'm just going to stay at home and not do it anymore.

Exactly.

But you can't. You're. That's. You're supposed to get trash. It's supposed to be humbled every time you step into the ring. But then that is supposed to motivate you to. I want to be that guy now, the one that trashed me. I want to be better than him next time. So instead of talking with your ego mind, okay, I don't. I don't. I don't like this feeling of losing. I'm just going to not put myself in that situation anymore. Then there's no growth. You know, you need to be. You need to lose. You need to lose to. To. To. To grow. You need to be in that position to realize where you can be in the Future.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And that's, and yoga was really good in terms of doing that for me. Which is, which is one of the reasons why I started the show and had yoga as a foundation. And I mean, for example, I remember crow pose, trying to get crow pose. The number of times I've fallen on my face in crows, you know, I mean, I've lost count. But you don't fall and then not try it again because otherwise you never do it. Now I sort of.

Every time you, every time you fall, you're, you're one step closer to getting that pose. Yeah, exactly.

And every time you don't try, you're one step.

Yeah, exactly.

You just gotta, just, just gotta start. And I think for people listening out there who are stuck and who maybe have an idea about something which they might want to do, but probably think it doesn't fit into the thing that people like them do, there is no, there is no box. I mean, you don't have to be, be in the box that other people put you in. Just try it.

Have courage. Have courage. Have an open mind and just experience and be okay with loss. Be okay with losing. Because when you lose, no one's gonna like, aha, you know, you lost like most people. If you're in a, in a, let's say in a community that's encouraging, like yoga or same or boxing, people are not gonna be like, haha, you lost. People are gonna be, oh, well, just try harder next time. Lean more into your fingertips so you can float the back leg off, that kind of thing. Or like use your hips more when you, when you throw the left hook or right hook, whatever. So people will help you. If you are your own worst enemy, you are gonna be the one telling yourself, like, okay, I, I, I, I suck. So if you, you tell yourself that, then that's who you're going to be. You need to change that. That the voice that you have in your head sometimes.

Yes, that, that inner voice. Yeah. What did, so talking about that, what did your colleagues think when you decided you were leaving copywriting to teach yoga full time? Were they supportive? Did they question your decision?

I think it was supportive because I was already like well into it all yoga, because I was practicing all the time anyway, after work, okay, I'm going for yoga. So they sort of knew.

Okay.

For my mom, I think it was okay as well. She didn't really understand it, like, because I can earn money and all. Like, what's this? Like, what, you know, why you, why are you home at like 10, 10am what do you mean you're done with work? Or like so it's just unconventional like when I tell my, my relatives or so like what, what is yoga? It is already it's a whole new. More questions to answer that you feel like it's like people asking you what does this tattoo mean? That kind of thing. But support wise I didn't meet much resistance. It was quite like, okay, just, just do it. Like it's not like a, it's not like I was doing something drastic. It was just a shift in career that, in a career that was not conventional. Yeah, yeah, but it wasn't like a, like oh I'm gonna sell all my possessions and live in a cave kind of extreme thing.

La.

It was just like a. Okay. Just something different. We are. Okay. If you're happy, then go for it.

Yeah, that's, I mean that, that's good that you, you had that experience. I know it can go, it can go two ways and I know, you know there were some people who, when you leave something like that, a sort of a so called safe, secure, stable career. And there are people who look at you and who really inspired and kind of like say good for you and kind of willing you to do well. But there are also those people in the background who they say they don't understand.

Yeah.

Don't get it. It's not necessarily that they wish you ill, they just don't get it. Why would you do that?

Like that you're only six figures a month. Why are you letting it go?

Yeah, exactly. And, and that's why it's important that you have whatever is you decide to do. You have that strong. Why you have that strong vision as to what, what is the life that you want and, and how are you going to get there? And if where you are now, is it fitting in with that then you're doing this other thing because that's going to lead you to that point. Otherwise you will get swayed and you know, people will start to put their doubts on you and you'll start to sort of question, oh, maybe this isn't a good idea. It's always hard because things don't happen overnight. I mean, I mean with your podcast, I mean I don't know how it started out for you, but you put out your first few podcasts or whether it's your, your sort of first bits of content on the Internet, on Instagram or whatever and nothing.

It took a long time.

Immediate feedback. Right. And so you just think what is anybody listening? Is there any point Doing this. But you, the person who keeps going will be the one that gets to the end.

Right.

Not the person who.

Right, right.

Because it gets hard. Yeah.

And people need to realize this. Like, people need to look back on like all the things that they started all like, say, look at anybody that's famous now. It wasn't an instant success. YouTube and all this kind of thing might show that, like, oh, this guy was, he'd played one song and it became viral and therefore he's famous. These are the one off stories. I'm sure it happens, right? You strike the lottery. But then for most people, they take hard work. They put out like videos every week and then one day, then they finally get that scene or whatever, and then it goes viral. And, and, and it takes consistency, it takes patience, and it takes resilience.

Yes.

Anything that you want to do that's worth doing, it takes time. And then that's why you need to find something that you enjoy enough to want to keep doing the thing. Right. Say if it's yoga. If it's yoga, you go for one class, you don't really like it, that's fine. Maybe, maybe surfing is your thing, or playing the guitar or cooking or whatever. Once you experience that thing, then you realize, oh, I, I, I'm terrible at this. I can't, I can't play any notes, but I want to keep going for lessons. And then one day you're like riffing out on everything, you know. Yeah.

Because then it becomes about the process and enjoying the process.

So then you're not afraid about failing anymore, right? Yeah, exactly.

No, I think that that's true. And yeah, the consistency is important. There is no such thing really as an overnight success. It might look that way, as you said, but there's a whole, whole years of work that go on behind that. It's like the band that releases its first album. They probably would have spent years writing that first album. And then suddenly, in the space of 18 months, two years, I've got to write a second one and try and do the same as the first.

Yeah.

And that becomes a little bit harder. So, yeah, there is, there is no overnight excess. And I think we said about resilience is a key one. And again, yoga is sort of given that to me. Resilience, discipline, focus, all of those things. And it's taking that off the mat. You mean, you learn it on the mat, but if you can take that off the mat and apply that to your life, and that's your life foundation, and then you can start to Deal with adverse situations that, that come your way. Which brings me to. I want to talk about your trip to Nepal.

I love all these segues. They're very smoother. I gotta give you credit.

So I was seeing on your Instagram that you, you went on a trek to Nepal, which sounds amazing, but what maybe doesn't sound as amazing is you got caught in a. In a blizzard.

This happened a long time ago. Where this. Oh, this is, this is when I broke up my girlfriend and I was strike. I was like. I wanted to travel, I wanted to do something crazy. So. So then I went to Nepal in winter. It was like over Christmas. So I spent Christmas and New Year over there. So it was a December and it was cold and it's low season so there's nobody there and I went alone. So I was in Bangladesh first for two a week and then I went over to Nepal for two weeks to track Everest. And then I went there and I was, I joined this, this. What's it? She was this Korean girl who had a tracking guide and she was looking for a partner. This is website called like trackingpartners.com or something like that. So I was looking at who wants to go with me. So then I found this Korean girl and then she had a guide and everything. So then we, we went. It was the two of us plus him. And then afterwards on the first, the first day because it's a 11 day track or 12 days. The first day she. She just gave up. She. She gave up. And we haven't even reached the. We didn't reach anything yet. We're just like at the first town heading to like the, to the, to the, to the, to the start of the hill, right? And every, so every day it's like a seven, five hours to seven hours walk. You start in the morning once there's the sun and then you stop because once the sun sets it gets super cold. So that's like 5pm 6pm it's like no sun, it's freezing and it's winter and it's low season so there's nobody and it's just us. And then like first day she gave up and then she, she had to go down. So then I got pet. So. So the, the. The guy bring. Brought her down and then I got paired with another guy to go up. And then when I went upwards it was just like I was just alone all the time because my guy was being a dick.

He.

He just kept walking in front of me all the time. And I, I sometimes I couldn't even know where he was. Like, so now I was just walking by myself and there's nobody there, nobody in front, nobody behind, and I'm by myself. And I had a lot of time to think. And when you're in your own head, you start to like go a little bit crazy. It's like, it's like, it's like going on a meditation retreat. Yeah, Vipassana. So then like I'm just walking and I'm tired and I'm cold. Oh, the worst things. And you're doing something repetitive, right? Let's say meditation, just sitting down, walking, I'm just walking, I'm tired. And then you're just being very focused because you're just doing one task which is walking. And your goal is just to reach the town before the sun sets. But then throughout the way all the distractions come in and there's no other, there's no music to listen to, there's no video. Like there's no distraction. So I couldn't, I had to face what all my. And I had just broken up, right? So I was like, I'm in that state, I'm in a foreign country, I'm alone, I'm cold, I'm walking, there's no turning back, right? So I'm just, I have to be very strong and just like, just get to the place. At the end of the day, one foot forward, left foot forward, right foot forward, left foot forward, right foot forward. And I just kept walking. And sometimes I would like stop and I'll cry by myself. It's super emo. It's a super emo trip. But I would like find pleasure in the small things like the running water. Like, oh, it's water. I'm gonna scoop it up and splash my face. I would sit down, I would eat my Reese's peanut butter cups for like an energy boost and I would admire the view. And then like if my, if I ever caught up with my shop with my, my guide at the front, then we'll chit chat for a bit. And I had my GoPro and like that, that was where I took the video with the GoPro. So I think on the last, let me. The seventh or eighth day, no, I think seventh day because you, you go up, you go up and come down. It's like 11 days. So like six, six or something. So on the, the, the fifth day or sixth day when I'm almost reaching the thing, it's, there's blizzard because it's winter, right? So it's the highest. It's the coldest time. And I. So every night you would stay at a different lodge.

Okay.

And. And there was nobody in the lodge because I was the only one there. So then he would go, like, my guy would go sit with his buddies, and then I would just be. And then.

Still alone.

And I'm alone and with my thoughts. And like, I had. There was no. There were some tourists, but then they would have their own tracking groups, right? And they would stick to themselves. And like, sometimes if you're alone, they won't even on the fire for you because there's no one there. So I'm like, fucking. I'm freezing. I'm alone. I got no one to talk to. I got no one to share my thoughts with. And I couldn't shower because there was no hot water. And I was alone in my room. And the floor's like, wooden. There's, like gaps, and it's like. It was a torture. So.

Sounds beautiful.

So then I was. I think so on the next. The last. The day of the blizzard. So we were walking towards the. The. The base camp, and then it was. It was blizzard. And then like, my. My. My guide was like, okay, this is blizzard over there. We gotta walk faster so that we don't get caught in it. And then like, if. If he was lost or. Or if he wasn't there, I would be fucked. Because this. I can't see anything like this. It's just snow. And then like a ledge that goes down on one side. So I'm following footprints, but also there are no footprints because of the snow. And then he's like, okay, I think we're going that way. I mean, he. I'm sure he knows.

Yeah.

But then it's also like, because everything. Even if you know how to go home, it's all covered in snow. So it looks different. So he's a bit disoriented. And I'm like, oh, we're gonna die here. So we're just walking. And then like, of course we made it back, but it was just like a very. Like, I think at that point when I took that video, it's a very. Like, we were like, it's day six or day seven. We're tired. It's sun setting. It's like odds are against us. And then like, in that moment, it felt like. Like, you know, like sometimes when you're in. You're dealing with a lot of hardship and you just have to laugh. You start to be like, what the fuck are we doing here? You start to laugh.

Yes.

So, like, me and him were just like, laughing, like, oh, that's the stone. We're gonna die here. Like, look at it. And then we're just dancing. I think I didn't. It didn't show in that. The video on Instagram, but I think there was one time we put the GoPro down, we started dancing because he would always play this Nepalese song on his phone.

Okay.

And then I started, hey, what's a song? And then we always play and we will sing it. So that's like our theme song. So then we played a song, we were like, dancing and like, just like, hahaha, walking. Because, you know, you reached that point where, like, you're kind of crazy already.

Yeah. You've already gone past that.

Yeah. But I think it was a. It was a. It was a journey in was as much as it was a journey outwards. And the lesson that I took away from that trip was that it's. If you look at the task in a very grand. Like, if you look at it from outside, it looks very impossible. Like, how are you going to trek to Everest? That sounds impossible. I could never do it. But if you narrow it down, can you put one foot in front of the other? Yes, I can. Then that's all you're doing. That's how you climb the top of the mountain, that kind of thing. So can you put one foot in front of the other? Yes. Then you can do that. Can you dedicate five minutes of your time out of your day to practice this? Yes. Then you can do it. And all it takes is five minutes a day to reach whatever you want to do. Right. So then when I. And that was a lesson that I. I realized, and it was very motivating. Like, oh, okay, I did the thing. And it was painful, but I did the thing because I just kept telling myself, left foot, right foot, left foot, right foot, left foot, right foot. And then, like, before I know it, I'm there. Right? So then it was. But then there was no one to share the experience with me or something. Right? So then I was like, okay, I'm here, so why is no one congratulating me? Where's all my praise? Like, there was nothing. None of that. So then, because there's no Internet, so. So then I was like, okay, then what was this for? Was this for a Facebook post? Like, what was this for? So then, like, then that makes you reevaluate more things as well. So then I was like, okay, maybe this is just for me. Walk back. And then like, you know, Just more contemplative. And then you get home and then like, of course, like any big trip that you come home from, you come back and then you're, you're at home in the comfort of your home and then you realize, like, the warmth, my bed, so comfortable. Oh, warm showers, oh, home cooked meal, this is all so nice. And you start to feel a bit more grateful for that. So then that trip helped me grow as a human being, as a man. It made me stronger in different ways. It made me more resilient, more grateful. And you need that kind of thing, you know, you need to step away from the safety of, say, Singapore, the bubble of Singapore. Step into a. Outside of the fire. Right. Or step into the fire before you realize like, we're all good, we're actually fine. There's nothing to worry about, you know.

Yeah, we're, we're built for this.

Yeah.

One of the affirmations which I, which I really like and I give to, to my coaching clients is I am the type of person that's capable of doing hard things because again, it goes back to that concept of safety and of comfort. We're conditioned to think that we can't do these things because actually everything's geared towards comfort. The advertising, what our parents say, get a stable job, get a nice job, get a good salary, buy a nice house, I mean, have a nice family. All of these sorts of things we live in. Sort of conditioned to live in the conventional. And I mean in that story, and there's so much to take away from that. But actually isn't that everyone has to go to Nepal and went through what you went through, you can get that experience, you say by again, picking to do the thing which seemed hard, but which you want to do, whether it's being on the mat, whether it's learning the instrument, whether it's public speaking, whether it's launching a podcast, and what I really. Well, there's two things particularly that I picked out from that. One is finding pleasure in the small things. Because we take so much for granted in life and we sort of walk through almost on autopilot. We just do things without thinking. I mean, the fact that running water comes out of the tap, do you know, I mean, you can take your phone and book a taxi or you can call someone the other side of the world. All of these things are fascinating, but they just become so routine. Barely think about them. So being forced to take pleasure in the small things, which is why gratitude is a great thing. Because when you're doing a Daily gratitude practice. When you've gone through the first few days of the big things. I'm grateful for my health, I'm grateful for my family. And grateful. Then you've got to start digging deep and thinking, okay, wow, I'm kind of, what am I really grateful forces you to think about those things and to look at life in a different way and to reframe them. But the other thing which I really, really liked and smiled at when you said it is when you got to the top and there was no one, there was no Internet, you couldn't go on Facebook or Instagram and sort of share it. And then starts thinking, okay, well what was this all for? And the fact he said, well, it was for me. And that's it. Because the, the goal is almost not. The point is the process is what it takes to get there. And that's kind of what makes you. That's kind of where you figure out who you really are. And having a vision, having a vision is good because it gives you direction. So if you didn't know that your direction was to reach the top of this mountain, then you would have been walking around aimlessly in the sun, in the blizzard. And it's what's the point? Because I don't know where I'm going and I haven't got any idea. But you knew where you were going, so that was difficult to get there.

Interesting.

Had a point to get to. So by having that point to get to, the whole idea of taking one step at a time is at least you're taking one step. It's a small step, but at least it's getting you to where you want to go.

Right.

If you're taking one step at a time in circle or in an aimless line, what's the point? You know, I mean, because you're just getting more and more tired, you're getting cold day more and more unhappy without any anywhere to get to. But actually when you get there, it's not like it ends because, well, one, you still got to come down. But two, you then got to think, okay, well what was all that for? And three, there's going to be something else that you want to do. So.

Right. There's a lot to unpack. Yeah. Because like, like, let's say you have no goal, you're walking around in circles, then what's the point? You're just going to freeze. There's. If you have a goal but you're not moving forward, then what's the point? And it. All it takes is just One step. One step. And. And if all you can do is one step, then you will get there. It's just a matter of time.

Yes.

Right. Yeah. And I've lost my thought again. I had something that you said something about it and I wanted to mention. I wanted to share about it.

That's okay.

I mean, oh, well, it's gone.

If it comes back and then maybe, maybe we'll catch it after. But that's why I wanted to talk about. Well, all of these things really podcast, and then the check in and also the ego as well, because they all sort of demonstrate almost the same thing, but in different ways in different environments. That thing about starting being consistent, just taking one step, knowing where you're going, and all of these things are important because if you're in a situation which you're not happy with, you kind of need to know where it is that you want to go so that you can then take the steps to get there.

That's what I remember now about. How about how, like, what, when you reach the point, when you reach the peak, what is this for? Right. Because if the destination is what the. It's never about the destination, it's about the journey. Because there are people that can take the helicopter and fly up to the peak and take a photo and then. But then what was that for? You never went through that. So then once you go through the whole cycle of it, the journey of it, and then when you do reach that point, you realize that that point is irrelevant. Or rather, that wasn't the, like, at the, at the bottom, you'd be like, oh, I want. Once I reach there, all my problems will be solved. But once you get there, nothing changes. You know, it was the journey. When you reflect that it was the journey, that was the lesson. And then now you realize now I got to find another adventure and another adventure, and you got to keep putting yourself through all these quote unquote hardships to grow. Because then on the grand scale of things, all these things are leading you to your true self, your higher self. Right. The more resilient, stronger self. Yes. Yeah.

It's all, it's all growth.

Yeah.

And you've got to go through the process. You've got to. You've got to do the work. Right? You've got to do the work to get growth. So as you said, you've got to do the work to get up to the top of the mountain, to kind of get out of it what you're supposed to get out of it as opposed to as you Say, flying there in the helicopter, taking the selfie and leaving, then you haven't done the work. So what you get out of it, a nice photo, is that the point might be the point for that person, but it's not the point in the grand scheme of. Of growing and of, you know, I mean, if you believe that the ultimate. Our ultimate aim is to kind of reach that. That point of enlightenment, I mean, it's not. That's not the point. The point is that we evolve each day and we're taking a step sort of closer to. To what we meant to do towards Adharma. And if we're not doing that, then kind of what's the point?

You're just running around circles, waiting to.

Freeze, happy crying to yourself. Whoo. Wow. Yeah. A lot to unpack there. And it was. I'm glad we kind of got to that. And. And I kind of found out about that journey, because the way that you told it, it was just. I was just thinking, like, yeah, this is such a great metaphor for life.

I never realized that until you rationalize it in that way.

Like, yeah, okay, good. I feel like my work here is done. So we always seem to get to this point in these interviews, which is great. We kind of start and then we kind of get into some deep, sort of heavy philosophical stuff, all of which is great, which is really relevant, and I love it. So that. But let's sort of try and bring it back to. We'll come to sort of the. Sort of the questions that I like to ask all, I guess, which are kind of related, but maybe a little bit more straightforward. Although sometimes the question that seems straightforward is the one that, again, takes it on a tangent. And that's okay. That's the beauty of having your own show. Okay?

So do whatever you want.

So what I like to ask. Question. I like to ask guests is about their morning routine, whether they have one and if they do what it is and what it does for them. Because I think that having some sort of structure, routine, practice, whatever you want to call it, at least for me, kind of really helped me to kind of, like, anchor myself and feel like I had some semblance of control over a particular portion of my day. So, yeah, do you have one? And that's it look like for you.

My morning routine is to wake up and use my phone for 45 minutes.

Everything I counsel against.

No, I mean, I mean, okay, but I actually, like, I do do that. I mean, maybe not 45 minutes, but, like, I check my phone. The first thing I wake up and I hate it. I hate it. I'm not advocating it, but like, it's just like my alarm is there, my. I gotta see what time is it, I gotta check my schedule, whatever. So, like, it's all there. But then, like, so is my Instagram, so is my, like my video games or whatever. It's all there.

Tips for you. I'll share.

Yeah, so like, I've tried to, like, put it at the table, far away, but then, like, but it's just. I don't know, I just feel so, like I'm. I'm trying to work on that. Yeah, for sure. But I, I've heard some. I heard a podcast about someone saying about how before you, like the first thing, you wake up, check in with yourself, before you check in on the world, you know, before you open your emails and look at what Twitter is, you know, whatever that's going on in the world, check in with yourself. And that can be through meditation, through just enjoying a cup of coffee or just being mindful for the first five minutes or something like that, which I am trying to practice. Like, I meditate, but I do it more at night, so I think I have more of a night routine than a morning routine. My morning routine is, yeah, I wake up, I gotta go because, like, I gotta teach a class or whatever, but my nighttime, at least I can have time to unwind. Then I'll meditate and then I'll try to not use my phone or my, my computer, like the technology and. And then I'll just meditate and I'll just go to sleep.

Yeah, sounds good. Yeah, we'll definitely talk off air about your, your morning routine, only because, I mean, I've been there. I know, I know what it's like partly from a personal point of view. I mean, you kind of wake up, as you said, your phone's there, alarm goes off, and you just kind of get into it. And also from a work point of view, I mean, deal. And you kind of check in what's going on and how your day is going to be. So I've, I've been there. I know what it's like and I know that it wasn't, it wasn't good for me because the quote that you said was good. But. And the way that I sort of phrase is that you, you end up starting your day on someone else's agenda. And, and if you've lost control of the first, the point you've woken up, how do you get it back for the rest of the day?

Right, right, right.

Starting the day with control you. It doesn't mean that you're going to be in control for the whole day, but it means that you're more mindful of what control feels like. And you at least feel like you've had some sort of. You've done something for you. You've had time that's protected and that's for you.

Right.

And you haven't kind of been pulled off to someone else's. To someone else's tune, you know, I mean, setting boundaries, which is something.

Right, right, right.

That I'm big on. So. But no, it's interesting. And yeah, at the nighttime time routine, I mean, it's cool. I mean, it doesn't have to be morning. I mean, lots of people talk about morning and do things in the morning. I do. Just because. Largely because of the kids as well. It's just easier. But we had a guest, actually, a friend of yours, Gwen, who for her it's more an afternoon routine. So it's more having those things that sort of anchor you, that ground you in each day. Because I think that, again, going back to the. To being in the blizzard, if you don't have something that sort of anchors you and kind of gives you a foundation, then, yeah, you just wander around aimlessly and you go where people tell you to go when they tell you to go there. So, yeah, that's cool. And it's good to have something different as well. And it's good to have somebody who openly admits that they get on their.

Phone because everybody does it.

Everybody wants to sort of say they have this perfect.

I wake up and I meditate for like an hour. And then I like, whatever.

Exactly. Given the Instagram view. But it's good to have there. Let's have the real view. And I think also it's something that a lot of the listeners can relate to, because I'm sure a lot of them do that as well. And it's like, okay, fine, there's this guy here. I mean, he's been through all this. He's kind of done all the internal work. He's a yoga teacher. But even he still struggles with that. So I just think it's really real. So thanks for sharing that.

Thank you for asking.

What tips or advice would you give to any listeners who are feeling stuck, who feel they don't have direction, who are thinking they kind of want to have a. Want to make a change? What would you have maybe said to yourself or to a friend who's in that position?

To myself, I Think, I think to myself, which then would translate to other people because it's through my own experience. So I think like going back to the Nepal trip thing about having one foot in front of the other and just simplifying it, simplifying things. Because life is simple. Life is simple, but we choose to make it complicated. We choose to dramatize everything. We choose to make everything like so complicated.

Yeah.

And when you remove all this complicated stuff out of your life, things become very easy to understand. What are you here for? What is your purpose? What are you, why are you doing this every day? And when you take a step back or you just focus on what you're supposed to do, it's just a matter of putting one foot in front of the other. Yeah, beautiful.

Yeah. Celebrating those micro sets. Taking a step each day, you know, I mean taking one step each day will get you there quicker than taking 10 steps and then not taking anything.

Have a little compassion for yourself. You know, you take five steps forward, one step back and then like you, oh, I failed. I didn't work out today. So like, ah, let's just end this whole schedule. You just gotta, you know, sometimes you cheat a bit, you eat a burger, other times you diet, you just try like you just two steps forward, one step back is still one step forward.

Yeah, yeah, perfect. A perfect way of looking at it. Yeah, that's very, very sound advice. What are you most excited about at the moment?

I think I'm excited about just teaching because I mean I started teaching in home after the circuit baker lifted. So it's still quite interesting to me. I'm still finding my voice or still slowly things are just being revealed to me as I teach and then so I'm enjoying this journey. And what else am I excited about? Not much to be excited about. Seeing the state of the world. Can't really travel or anything.

Yeah.

But just excited about my own personal growth, I guess and like how things are shifting because things are shifting in whatever way that it's shifting. So I would like to see how when all this is over, where is the state of the world going to be? You know, And I hope it's. It might not be positive, but it might, it'll still be different and change is always welcomed.

Yeah. I think we're all wondering because I think at the start of the year obviously things happened and everybody was kind of okay.

How are we going to adapt?

Yeah, right out to the end of the year and now, I mean it's very clear that it's going to spill into next year and who knows how long. And yeah, there's been a huge shift in the world. So negative obviously, but some positive just in terms of how things are done and what people are now accustomed to. I mean, in the yoga space, the fact that people are accustomed to doing classes online now, which.

Oh yeah, that's true. It's a new norm.

You know, it is people before, I mean, there was definitely a line, John, that you can't teach yoga online. It doesn't translate for various reasons. And now I can do, you know.

I can teach boxing online, dance online. You teach everything online.

So people are adapting and people's creativity is coming out and I think that that's a good thing. And people are questioning the way that their life has been lived, whether it's that they had a long commute, they were traveling a lot for work, they weren't seeing much of their family, and they're now thinking, actually, do we have to go back to that? Is it really necessary? And they're seeing a different way of living. So I mean, there are some people who are still waiting for normal and inverted commas to come back, but I still think there are a lot of people who are sort of adjusting to certain changes. Yeah, obviously no one wants to have continuous lockdowns and some of the restrictions that we have, but just in the terms of how they live their day to day life and how they, how they sort of approach things, hopefully Darwin.

Said about how the. It's not the strongest animal that survives, it's the one that's able to adapt, that survives.

Nice. Yeah.

So regardless of how the world turns out in the future, everything might be online for, you know, forever and that. And you just got to adapt to that.

Adapt.

Yeah.

No, I think that's great. Slightly similar, but slightly different question. What are you most grateful for?

I'm grateful for being here talking to you.

Thank you. You're the second.

Hey, nice. I'm grateful for the people that I've met, for sure. The people that I've been able to talk with, to learn from, to share and to confide in. I'm grateful for where I am right now, like in my life. I, I've always liked, like people always ask, like, what, like what's the best, like, how do I say this? Like, I think now is the best version of me. Right. Right now is the best version of me. I wouldn't say that. Oh, When I was 21, I was young and like now is the best version that I'm in. So then I'M the most experienced. I've lived. Like, I've seen as much as I needed to see, to form my own opinions. And like, I feel like I'm the. I'm. I'm not confused about who I am. You know what I mean? So I like who I am now, and I'm grateful for the experiences that has led me to who I am today.

Perfect. Because I think. Yeah. Because I think that we can spend a lot of time regretting.

Yeah, Regret. Yeah.

A lot of time trying to leapfrog where we are now. Wishing the present away.

Right.

But it always comes back to. And again, another affirmation, which is the one where I'm exactly where I need to be. And I think if you remind ourselves of that, it doesn't mean that we're. That you're kind of like quelling ambition. It means that you're exactly where you need to be now. So take the present. Be here now. Do what you need to do.

This acceptance of where you are like this. There's some things like you can't control Covid, but you can control how you react to Covid.

Exactly.

And there's a lot. I mean, bad things happen to you, sure. But it's how you. It's not about what happens to you. It's what. How you deal with it that makes you stronger. So. So it's just about, like, just growing and. And what's that? What? Amor fati. Just love whatever happens to you. Yeah, it's that. I think it's a stoic thing. Oh, amor fati.

Yeah, I'm really into the.

Into stoics, but yeah, before love whatever happens to you, good or bad.

Nice. Love it. Right, let's make our way to a quickfare as we. We slowly come into land on this interview. So is there a particular quote or words of wisdom that you live by or that you refer to daily?

I don't know if I have a daily. I mean, I like stoicism a lot, but I think one. When people ask me what's my favorite quote? I have one that comes to mind. You are always changing and that won't change. Wait, wait, am I butchering it?

So everyone butchers quotes.

You are always changing and that. You are always changing and that won't change. But. Oh, my goodness, I'm embarrassed.

Look, it's difficult because obviously you have these quotes and you see them, but when you're actually asked to see by.

Neil Gaiman by the graveyard book. Okay, yeah. Something like, you always change. You're always changing and that won't change. And you're always changing and there's nothing you can do to change it or something like that. Like, the point. The point of it is that, like, how you are still you, but you're always changing. So even though you're growing and you're changing to be a better person, but you're still you. And there is. I think it sums up the dichotomy of it, like how you want to change to be a different person, to be a better person, but then you're still the same person that you were. So then it's about that acceptance of it and about how, like, you know how they say, like, every cell in your body every seven years will change because the cell dies and then the new cell reborn. So then every atom in your body is changing every seven years. So literally, you are a different person every seven years.

Okay.

So then you are always changing, but you're still you.

Yeah.

And that won't change. Okay. You are always changing and that won't change, but you are. I just had it in my mind.

Mind's not working today.

Can I just do a quick little Google? It's a tongue. It's a tongue twister, this one.

You get. You get ahead. What's. What's the most impactful book you've read in the last 12 months?

I'm not a big reader. I mean, I try to read, but then, like, I don't read a lot.

Okay.

But I mean, I'm reading a book now. It's called Finding. Finding. It's by Donna Faris. Finding, Yoga or something like that.

Okay.

Finding the one thing at a time. We find this quote first.

Yeah. So we've. We've kind of discovered today that Aaron is not that good at multitasking. Or we. But that's fine. We can't all be good at everything, right? Yeah, I mean, quotes, quite always difficult one. I. I butcher them regularly.

Okay, here we go. Here we go.

Okay.

You are always changing and that don't change. And you, what you are, you are. Oh, you are always you. There we go. Okay. Okay. You are always you and that won't change. And you are always changing and there's nothing you can do about it.

Okay.

Does that make sense? Does that make sense now? Yes. It's a bit of a tongue twister, but like.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Okay.

No, I like it. I like it. Yeah. And I can. I can. Your explanation. I can definitely see, see the reason why it's a. It's a favorite without a doubt. Okay. Yoga pose. Favorite yoga pose and why?

I used to like Warrior 3 a lot. I like balancing poses, but I don't really do a lot of Warrior threes in my sequence. But I like balancing. I like balancing poses because it helps me to focus on. Yeah. Or maybe half moon. I have a lot of half moons in my sequence, so. Okay, I'll change it. My favorite favorite pose, yoga pose, is half moon. Final answer.

Okay. Yeah, yeah. No, I've done a few half moons in your. Which is good, because it's not something I would necessarily do myself at home. So that's why I go to classes. When you're practicing or when you're teaching, do you prefer music or no music?

I prefer no music. At ym, you played music because that's just, you know, you have to. Yeah, but I feel like the music is distracting. And there is something beautiful about having everybody breathe in unison in a class. And I feel like sometimes the silence helps bring you closer to that state of flow, that inner silence, that inner stillness that you need to always. Because music is a distraction. It's a comforting thing to have if you're unfamiliar with this territory. So then the music helps ease you into the space.

Yes.

But then it also distracts you in a certain way. So I personally, I got no beef with music, but if it's too loud or if it's too distracting, then I'll feel a bit weird. But then that's on me to be able to ground in my own practice. So I have no real beef about music, but I prefer a silent class.

I think that's an interesting point. You said because on the one hand, music can be distracting. But, yeah, if you're deepening your practice, it's like meditation or yoga. You know, I mean, if you're practicing a studio, there's construction going on outside, or there's traffic noise outside. On the one hand, you can say, well, that's distracting. It's kind of ruining my Zen. But actually, you're supposed that the whole process is teaching you to kind of rise above it, to be that stillness amidst the chaos. So the fact that there's noise is challenging, but it just almost forces you to. To work harder, to kind of find that stillness within. So, yeah, I think what you said is. Is right. I've done both, and I now prefer without, as I think I've said before. But if there is music, it's kind of like, okay, fine. I just have to work harder to kind of focus on the internal and not the external. Yeah, cool. Very Good. And final question.

Final, final question.

Yes. Dream yoga retreat destination. I know we can't travel and we probably can't for some time but if you could, where would you, where would you host one? If you were hosting a retreat, where would you be? Your.

I think when that question came up I immediately thought of Thailand because I like Thailand a lot. I did my TT there, the first one was there. And I've never really done a yoga retreat in Thailand unless you count the tt. But it's not really a retreat. But it's, it's close, it's cheap, it's warm. I did like we, my recent yoga. Richie was in India but it was during the winter season, it was cold and it's weird doing yoga in the cold. So I prefer like a more tropical climate for, for practice. And it's the food that is great. Like have you. The vegetarian food in Thailand is amazing and people are friendly. It's not, it's not a hassle. It's not like it got take eight hours to fly there or something. So I would say Thailand is the dream retreat.

Yeah. Yeah, Thailand would be good. I wouldn't mind that. Let me know when you're holding it up. I'll come along and visit you there. No doubt. Yeah, I realized that, you know, I mean we got so sort of deep into, into metaphors and other things that we didn't even talk about your, your teacher training experience.

Whereas in Thailand was it Koh Phangan? But it wasn't at the, it wasn't at the party place. It was like an island away from it. It's just an island on its own. Good and bad. Because like there's nothing there. It's like you needed, you literally needed to, to take a boat, a 45 minute boat out to go to 7 11. So you really needed to stock up on everything before you went in. Yeah. And there was nothing there. It was just one restaurant that we ate at all time because that's the only place to eat. Yeah, yeah. And then they charge super expensive. Like I thought it was going to be chill. Yeah. So that was it. And it was, it was, I went, I went in thinking I knew a lot about yoga. I left realizing I know nothing about yoga.

Common experience.

I'm sure you felt that way as well after your tt, you know, like.

It'S that thing where you, the more.

You know, the more you don't know.

Yeah, well that's what I mean. And you don't know what you don't know until you're There and then you kind of leave. And it's like, because you go almost with an expectation that you're going to sort of leave with all of this knowledge and you do, but there are questions, far more questions, and there are all these different tangents. It's kind of like, well, where do I start? Do I go to anatomy? Do I go to alignment? Do I go to chakras? Do I go to, you know, I mean, and you can't do it all. So you've kind of then got to sort of figure out who you want to be as a teacher. And so you need to then teach a bit and kind of figure out what works for you, what, what you like, what kind of lights you up, and then sort of pick the route you go down. So transformation, experience.

But yeah, that's why you're always a yoga student. You're always a student, indeed.

It's one of the reasons why. I mean, it's a common phrase that people understand, which is why we use it. Yoga teacher. But I much prefer to be called a yoga guide because we're holding the space to guide students through, but we don't have all the answers. You know, we're probably a few steps ahead of some of our students or I mean, if you're teaching somewhere like home, there's probably students who are steps ahead of you in terms of their physical as, but also maybe in terms of some of the other stuff as well. But they come because, I mean, they want someone who will hold space for them and sort of guide them. And that's kind of what we do. We're not experts. We are just people who have had some learning in the. As we go along. So great way to, to end the podcast. Yeah, I'm sure there's going to be a lot more as we come off air. Before we go, is there anything that you have coming up in the future? Anything you want to tell the listeners about? Maybe, or maybe just sort of tell them what you're teaching and people who are in Singapore want to come see you.

I mean, I got nothing planned. No, no, no travel plans, nowhere to go. But if you want to, you can come and find me at home. Yoga. That's where I'm teaching at now. If you want to listen to my podcast, it's the mostly yoga podcast on Spotify, Google, Apple, whatever major podcast, things that same with Side by side with the yoga dance right there. Yeah.

Yes, we're both on there. And yeah, we'll, we'll stick links to those in the show notes and yeah, I urge you to go and check out Aaron's podcast and I think that this one here, we do talk about yoga and we have some good insight and some quite deep conversations. But I mean, Aaron's is great, particularly if you want to. Want to get deeper. And here for some from some sort of really experienced yogis, both from Singapore and globally. So yeah, go and sit down and, and get. You get your ears into that one. And yeah, let, let me. And let Aaron know what you think and what you've taken away from those conversations where people can find you. You're on Instagram, obviously. The podcast is on Instagram as well. And we'll put those in the show notes. Any anywhere else or are they the. The best place for people to go?

I guess, yeah, just Instagram. I have a Facebook page and a YouTube thing, but it's like just, Just good at Instagram.

Yeah, yeah. When you're, when you're one person, as I found out, it's very hard to be everywhere. So you've got to, you got to pick your, pick your battleground. So, so, yeah, Instagram at Mostlyoga Podcast and also at Aaron Ing.

Aaron. Aaron. It's. It's a, it's a. It's like a verb I did one day.

So I see.

I'm like, people think it's my surname, like Ning is my first name, but it's not a chance. Just like, it's like an action word. It's like, like, yeah, but. So my name is Aaron, but the Instagram has three A's. Like, so it's a, A, A, R.

O, N. I've literally just noticed that, as you said, I've written it down correctly, but I.

Sometimes people like, they mess it up. Yeah. Because my email is that as well. So then I forgot one.

A. Yeah, I see. And yeah, yeah, Aaron's Instagram is rather entertaining. He has this strange habit of blurring his face out, which is possible. And also lots of, lots of waving of fingers. So, yeah, go and check that out if you want to be entertained and then also just to sort of see. See what he's up to. But for now I just want to say thanks again for coming to the Egg. And Aaron, it's been great having you here. Really interesting conversation as I knew it would be. And yeah, we will definitely be keeping in touch and I'll be seeing what you're up to.

Thank you so much for having me, Ryan.

No problem. Thanks for listening. See you next week.

Bye.

So if you've been sat on the fence thinking about that thing you want to get started on. I hope that this conversation with Aaron has helped to push you in the direction of taking that first step. I'd love to hear from you, as always. So drop me a line on Instagram, ryanspenceyoga and also heogadanpodcast and let me know what you think away from this episode and what it is that you're going to make the first step today. And as always, I ask this every week, but it really helps if you could leave a review for the show on Apple Podcast, helping to get the show out to others, help more people, and let me know what it is that works for you guys and what more I can do for you on the show. But for now, as always, go ahead and eat plants, give thanks, and do yoga. Peace.