BigLaw Drop Out // Ryan Spence - Yoga Teacher + Life Coach

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Welcome to another episode of Legally different, the hub for the soulfully ambitious. I'm Lauren, your host and I am joined in this episode by Ryan Spence. Ryan is a yoga teacher and a life coach and he's well known for the hashtag biglore dropout. So yes, you guessed it. Ryan is a former big law lawyer. He used to work In a top 10 international law firm and was based in London and then moved across to to Singapore. Ryan has had such a varied career. He started life in the music industry as a music manager before qualifying as a lawyer and having a successful legal career. And now he's obviously in the wellness space. So that in itself led to so many interesting conversations. One thing that really stood out to me about Ryan is in human design. He's a manifesting generator. And I'm going to be talking more about human design on the podcast because I'm training in it and I love it and I think it's a really powerful tool. But he really embodies the energy type of a manifesting generator. So they are here to be multi passionate. They're not truly designed to just do one thing or the same thing day in, day out. And they have bags of energy, a huge energy resource to do things. So Ryan is really an embodiment of that and I think he provides a big permission slip to us all that it's okay to quit, it's okay to change if something's not right, it's okay to expect, it's okay to soak up life. And this is something that really comes across in the episode and we have lots of different conversations around it. One that springs to mind is involving the ego death that comes with that. I really resonate with Ryan's journey. Our own journeys are very similar. He shares his journey in a really mindful way. He's very self aware, so really unpacks and breaks things down in a helpful way that will help you in your own journey. And another thing that really stood out to me in Ryan's journey and something he really shares with us all is the importance of doing inner work and personal development. That was key to him to understanding himself, to be able to make empowered changes. And he speaks about that in the context of his crux moment of when he realized he needed to leave law. He was on a family holiday in Bali and a deal landed in the office and he was expected to work on it. So he found himself balancing work and family holiday time and he just thought no more. A few things that happened up until then, but that was his crux moment, no more. I need to make a change from here and I think we can all resonate with that and work in high pressure careers, work encroaching on personal life. It's real. It doesn't make it right, but it's very real. And yeah, that was Ryan's crux moment and he went on then to transition away from law. But he shares very openly that it wasn't a quick journey, it wasn't a quick fix, it was like a slower journey. But it meant that the journey was most aligned with him and he was setting the right foundations. And a lot of that came from.

His own inner work and personal development.

So yeah, we have so many interesting conversations. I hope you enjoy it and I'll see you on the other side. Before we get into this uninterrupted episode, I'm proud to share with you that I'm partnering with an awesome, values aligned brand that I've used for at least the last two years pretty much every single day. So thank you to Fitdelis, the plant based protein powder for sponsoring this episode. I love what you're about. Keep doing your thing. So just to share a bit about my journey with Fitdalis and why I love it. For those of you who know me, you know that health is a key value of mine. It's so important and one way I commit to that every day is by having a smoothie bowl for breakfast. I love it. It just sets me up for the day in the most nourished way. And yes, you guessed it, Fit delis is a key ingredient in my smoothie bowls. People use it for all sorts of things, plant based shakes. I even seen people bake with it, like put it in cakes and things to make healthy bakes. But yeah, I love adding it to my smoothie bowl every morning. So just to share a little bit briefly about my smoothie bowl, just to give you more of a tangible idea of what that looks like. My favorite is an acai bowl. So I'll probably whiz up some berries, acai powder, oat milk, bananas, maybe some peanut butter too if I'm feeling indulgent. And yeah, some Fit Delis plant based protein powder. I'll whiz that up in a blender and pour it over some oats and I'm good to go. That's my breakfast and I love starting my day that way. A previous version of me a few years ago would have been like, are you really making that effort every single day and spending that time? And I'm like hell yes I am. It's so important to me to start my day in that way. I'm all about slow, mindful starts the day setting the right foundations and it actually even doesn't take that long. And Fit Dallas is awesome. I can be content that it's good for my body. It's its values align because I'm plant based and yeah, yeah, I just love it. So really wanted to give it a shout out. I would not talk about a brand or share with you anything. I don't use myself and I'm not a wholehearted hell yes to my partner. Loves it as well. He's been into the gym and weightlifting for most of his life and he has experimented with so many protein based products and supplements and yeah, he's just come back to being more natural now. And yeah, he loves Fit Dallas and uses it almost every day as well. So yeah, really wanted to give them a shout out. The two founders are awesome as well. They're just two sound guys with pure intentions for the health and nutrition sector and they're all about people being fit, happy and healthy and they know that nutrition plays such a key role in physical and mental health and they want to welcome you to the Fit Fam. Wherever you are in your journey, the Fitdelis family is always open to you. Feel free to go check them out. Their website is fittelis.com that's f I T-E-L-I-S.com. have a look around and let me know what you go for if you buy one of their products. My favorite is the vanilla protein powder. They also do chocolate and berry which are both awesome too. So yeah, check them out and let me know what you think if you buy something. And thanks so much for listening. Let's get into this episode.

Hey Ryan, welcome.

Hey, good to be here, Lauren. Really, really good to be here.

Yeah, awesome to have you on.

Are you ready?

Are you caffeinated?

Oh yes, the coffee. Anyone who follows me knows that I love my coffee. So I've had plenty of that this morning and I am raring to go.

Yeah, I noticed that on your social media. Me too as well. Really excited to dive into this. You've had an amazing journey which has basically led to you leaving big law and cultivating lots of different strands, lots of different strings to your bow. Life coaching. You're a yoga teacher, you've got your own podcast and when we chatted I resonated with so much of your journey. So yeah, I can't wait to dig into it find out more about you and what's behind your journey. So let's go back to the beginning to Minnie Ryan, little Ryan. Who did he want to be when he grew up? Like, was the seed planted that you wanted to be a lawyer when you were a child or when did that come into play?

No, I definitely didn't want to be a lawyer when I was a child. It's really interesting looking back on childhood and I've done it a lot in my own journey, but I had sort of these big dreams so I always wanted to be a pop star. That's what I wanted to do and any opportunity, I would sing, I would dance, I would be on stage, I was in school plays and I remember feeling frequently saying to my mum, who was getting more and more sort of distraught at my lack of interest in school, I don't need to go to school, I'm going to be a pop star. And I would design tour posters that said sold out on them. I created a band. So that was my dream really. And that's kind of really what I wanted to do. I wanted to be on stage and I wanted to do sold out tours and sold lots of records and live that life. So yeah, that was, that was the dream. And obviously away from that right now.

I love that though, what a dream. It wasn't just like, hey, I want to be a pop star. It's like you went all in as much as you could with the posters and saying sold out. I love that. So when did you kind of transition out of the pop star phase and yeah, what did your early career look like? When did you step into law?

Sure. So I mean, law was when I was 14. I did work experience at a high street law firm when I was at school and my mum still reminds me that I said to her it was okay, but it's no way I'm going to read and learn what's in all those books. I'm never going to be a lawyer. So there's always that thing there. And I think that for me, I carried that music dream through way into my early 20s. I worked in the music business behind the scenes. I was a manager, I wrote records and all of that kind of stuff and I loved it. But I just got tired of being broke, living in London and not making much money and still waiting for that big break. And through being in law and meeting lots of people, lawyers and accountants always got paid first. So for me it's like, I'm no good at numbers, so let's go and Rekindle that law thing and become a lawyer and go back to the music business. So that's kind of where it came from. So I guess the reasons for going into it were more sort of monetary than sort of any love or passion for the law. And then that kind of played out because once I found out more about law and discovered the whole world of finance, it kind of took me away from music, especially, like, oh, I could go and live and work abroad. I can work in these big gleaming buildings, I can be involved in deals that are headline news on the front pages. And that all seemed quite cool, having sort of spent four years living an amazing life but having no money, no prospects of ever buying a house, of going on a holiday, of doing anything that wasn't sort of related to music. And so I did that. I went back, got my law degree that for four years, got a training contract and, yeah, started as a trainee in big law in London and loved it. Did all the things that you would do. I mean, suddenly you got money coming in, there was lots of big nights out, got to take black cabs for the first time. That was just kind of like a normal thing instead of getting the night bus and just sort of living that sort of, I guess, dream in a sense of earning decent money, doing a decent job and so living in a big city.

Yeah, I feel you on that and just tracking back a bit. I love actually how you made the music dream happen. You became a music. Was it music manager, did you say your role was?

Yeah, I did. And again, this is a theme. I did lots of different things. I was in management, I was project manager for the label, so I kind of ran the office. I went out and signed new acts. You know, I mean, I liaise Rebecca Cunning. So, yeah, I did a lot of everything, but, yeah, I was fully ensconced in, in the business world and amazing.

For making that happen. But then as well, like, obviously checking in with what you wanted and you were like feeling pulled towards the money side of things and then being able to transition and shift and make that happen. Like you've been all in, in the music industry and then making the legal career happen, like, that's amazing. And I feel you on the money front. I do feel like that's a huge component for many people when they want to become a lawyer and, hey, we're human. Hey, we need money. Money makes the world go round. And actually I think it can be a powerful tool for creating the world that you want to see. So, yeah, and actually when we Spoke before we found out that your human design is a manifesting generator. And you being involved in all these different things is so aligned with that. Like even in the music industry and then transition into the law and the different things you're involved in then, which we'll get into. And then now where I can see, see you're currently at like, it's so aligned with that. So you fully live in your design. I love that.

Yeah, definitely. And then human design is something that's. That's quite new to me. But once, and I'm sure this is the same for most people, once I had my reading and I learned my type and what that meant, everything started to make sense. What I'd been doing sort of right in inverted commas and what I'd been doing wrong, what wasn't aligned. And so then it kind of took a lot of the pressure off. Definitely just made me kind of think, ah, okay, so that's why I was doing that. That's why I'm now doing this. And I can breathe and I can just roll with it.

Love that. Yeah, it can be a game changer and just a permission slip to be yourself, can't it? Amazing. So, yeah, I could talk about that all day, but let's track back a bit. So you became a lawyer, made that dream happen. So how did you go about that? What kind of law did you qualify into? What kind of firm?

Yeah, so I was in one of the B international firms, top 10 firm, and I was in finance. So I qualified into debt capital markets, which is funny because I had no idea what debt capital markets was probably a year or two before that. But I was drawn to the. If anyone sort of knows debt capital markets and derivatives, it's all about drawing these diagrams about where money flows and how things work. And that seemed quite quirky and interesting to me. And the thing about working in finance is that I knew it would allow me to work internationally, unlike other areas like say maybe pensions or real estate or tax. So that's what drew me into it. And I liked some of the guys in the team and the partner I ended up working for, I ended up building a really good relationship with. We got on really well and I felt that in a lot of respects, he really looked out for me and helped to develop my career, even though sometimes I felt he was just throwing me straight into the deep end. But as a trainee, I'd spent six months in Singapore and. And prior to my training contract, I traveled around Southeast Asia for six months. And I always knew I wanted to go back to Asia and we had offices in Hong Kong and in Singapore and in Tokyo, but Singapore was where I wanted to go back to. I really loved it there. And so I kept just saying every opportunity like, I want to do this, I want to do this, I want to do this. And it's that whole thing, if you believe in it, if you speak it, it will happen. And the opportunities came up to go to Singapore as a qualified lawyer. So three years qualified. I was sent to Singapore on what was supposed to be a two to three year second. But in my mind, I had no real intention of ever coming back. And I sort of planned to sort of build. Build my career in Asia, really. And that was very much. I still wasn't sure I wanted to be partner, but I knew I was good at what I did. I knew that the firm supported me and felt that I was good at what I did, which is why they'd sent me. And I also knew that I was good at building relationships. So I kind of had high hopes for my time out in Singapore, however long that was going to be.

Amazing. Again, a great example of how you just made something happen. You had a vision, a dream, and you just brought it to life. What was it in particular about Singapore that you loved?

So I loved Asia generally and I loved all the cities. Bangkok was this. This crazy, expansive city that just had loads of crazy things going on. Kuala Lumpur, similar as well, but I remember arriving in Singapore. So this would have been around Christmas 20, I don't know, 2009, maybe 2008. And it had a lot of the qualities of some of the big Asian cities like Bangkok or Kuala Lumpur, but it was smaller, it was ordered, it was clean, it was safe. And I just felt that this was a place I could live. I could go and party in Bangkok or in Kuala Lumpur and have an awesome time, but I couldn't live there, it'd be too chaotic. But I could live in Singapore. And I actually saw myself living there, which was really interesting for me because it's one of the first times that had happened. I'd been on holiday to places that I'd loved before, but it was one of the first times I actually saw myself. I could see what life would be like for me living there. And I hate the cold. So, yeah, the weather was also a bonus for me. Definitely getting up every day and sort of walking out in the sun shining was most appealing compared to a rainy day in London.

So, yeah, yeah, yeah, I hear you on that. And yeah, you're right about Singapore, it's got this nice fine balance about it. I've been a couple of times because when I was living in Bali, we had to do visa runs, so leave the country now and then. And Singapore was, yeah, an obvious place to go for a few days. Yeah, it's a cool place, definitely. And I feel you on the weather as well. I think we're both sun seekers, aren't we?

Exactly. The sun makes everything better.

Definitely. Amazing. So how long were you living in Singapore for as a lawyer?

Seven. Just over seven years. So I moved out there January 2014. And then. So my girlfriend, now wife, then joined me six months later. And yeah, we. And then we ended up having two kids there. So it was always. There was always a question as to when we would leave, I think, particularly after having kids. And my wife was sort of keen for us to be near family and to kind of bring the kids back. I was still sort of torn between really wanting to push forward with this career. So I kind of got from associate to senior associate. There were then conversations about moving up to council. There definitely seemed to be a pathing front of me. But, yeah, it just ended up being seven years for sort of reasons that I think we'll sort of come to.

Wow. Yeah. And so what was next to you? What started to show up for you, to make you think, oh, or maybe this isn't my lifelong career, or you started to feel a pull towards something else. What was showing up for you and going on at the time?

So I think that for a lot of lawyers, there's always that sort of tension between the hours and the demands and the expectations. And I think that they're quite normal. I think when they kind of went from being just probably the normal things to, okay, I kind of need to sort of think about this was having my first child. So when he was born. I think most people, when they have kids, it kind of changes their perspective on life generally. But there was a tension between. I'm in a really good job in a really good place, I'm making really good money, I need to provide for the family against. I'm not quite sure if I want to do what I would need to do to kind of climb further up the ladder. So it was like a little nagging voice and it was. It's like when you have a nagging child or a nagging friend, you try to ignore them for as long as you can and then they just get louder and more persistent. And that kind of happened over a period of time. I Remember one particular incident where I. And I can't remember how old my son was at the time, but I'd started just working from home on the other day, week. And this is obviously before now when everyone's working from home. And we had as a firm a global work from home policy. But for some reason it didn't seem to apply to our local office. But I'd been doing it for a while and I just sent an email one day to my secretary and my team to kind of say, yeah, I'm working from home tomorrow and asking my secretary to divert my phone. And I got an email back from the partner saying, we need to talk about this tomorrow. Okay. And then that sort of meeting turned into. I actually got quite angry because there was a questioning of my commitment to the firm and to the work based upon the fact that I was wanting to work from home. And I distinctly remember words being said to me that, well, everyone else, all the other partners have kids, you know, I mean, and they, they sort of deal with it. What makes you so different or worse to that effect? And I think that that was kind of like a big sort of wake up call for me. It was a real big jolt. So the voice had been there, but that was like a real like, wow, okay, this is not going the way that I want it to go. And I think that that was when I started to think, I don't think this is for me. And I thought it was probably that maybe that fur. Maybe that environment, I hadn't necessarily sort of thought that I would need to leave law completely because I didn't think I could. I'd been there so long and I was so entrenched in it and I was goddelling and I knew what I was doing. So doing something else just didn't seem something that I could do. But I knew that that situation was not going to be a long term, but it just couldn't continue like that.

Yeah, I hear you. So what was next for you? What were your next steps? How did you make a change or how did you decide to commit to making a change first?

Sure. Well, I guess the fairy tale would be that I stormed out of the office after that meeting. I sort of packed my bags, gave my resignation in, and walked off into the sunset. I mean, that would be what would happen in the movies, right? Unfortunately, it took me a lot longer than that. And yeah, it was a good few years and I was still there and still kind of not really into it, but kind of like, okay, I just need to Keep this going. And then the final trigger for me was December 2018. So I know you've been to Bali. I've been a number of times and I love Bali. I just arrive and just feel a sense of calm and peace and relaxation. And we'd arranged to go there for Christmas with some friends and we had this amazing sort of pimped out villa, but really looking forward to it. And so we arrived, I think 23rd of December, in the car from the airport to the villa, turn on my phone and there's an email from a client. And the deal that had been dead for a few months was now coming back to life. And the other side wants it done by the end of the year, which inevitably meant that I was going to be working on this holiday again. And so that was then two weeks of trying to have a holiday, trying to be around my kids and my friends and my wife, and at the same time going into the spare room in the villa to be on calls to draft documents, to review documents, to speak to client. I remember being on the call on Christmas Eve because I was dealing with lawyers in India, so obviously it wasn't really an issue for them. And it was that whole thing where you're on holiday and you're supposed to go on holiday to sort of recharge and come back refresh. But actually I'm just working, but except in a different place, which is ironic considering the argument I had about working from home, whereas now I'm in Bali, working from Bali on my holiday. And so I, on the plane back, I just knew that something had to change. I couldn't do this anymore and I didn't know what or how, but I had to do something. I had to start making some changes in my life. Those changes were immediate. I came back in 2019 and I signed up for a boxing match and that was really good for me because I was three months of focus on something that was wasn't work. And it really kind of helped me get back into some of the habits and routines that I'd lost in terms of morning routines, in terms of working out, in terms of being mentally and physically fit. It also got me back into my yoga practice, which for me was the gateway to personal development. And it led me to go into my first yoga retreat, which is kind of a thing where I started to slowly start to have a slightly more expansive vision as to kind of what else I could do beyond.

Yeah, thank you for sharing that. So much going on there and so much I resonate with. It's Interesting, isn't it? The holiday piece, I think. Yeah. It was obviously the straw that broke the camel's back for you and similarly for me. My. My journey. And yeah, it's interesting that balance between taking time out and being expected to be on your emails, like, the two just don't go together. Yeah, you can work from home or work from wherever in like an empowered way. But even then, like, even when I was living in Bali in paradise, I still needed to switch off and have that time. And yeah, it's interesting that the. That crux moment came up there for you as well. And it sounds like that's when you just felt that commitment, a need to make something happen, even though you didn't know how, in your own words. But I think when you have that power and that internal commitment, it can be such a drive to make a change.

Yeah, exactly. I think you. And again, a lot of what I say is with hindsight and with the work that I've done, so it's not to sort of say that I have it all figured out, and I definitely didn't have it all figured out then, but I think that we worry a lot about the how. And I think that that's kind of where I was. It's kind of like, yeah, but if I do this, like, how am I going to or what am I going to? And sometimes you just need to decide, okay, what. What is right for me. And if this isn't right for me, then there has to be something else that is. And then go find it. And I think for me, yoga helped in terms of looking inside myself and trying to kind of figure out who I was, what aligned with me, how I felt, what I wanted to do. And then, because without yoga, I don't think I would have seen coach. And it was actually seeing a coach that then accelerated that process of self development and that then allowed me to speak out and give me. Gave myself permission, I guess, to say, actually, I don't want to do law. I want to do something completely different. And I think if I hadn't had the yoga, if I hadn't had the coach, I'm not sure I think I would have got here, but I'm not sure how long it would have taken me to get here. And I'm not sure how much further down I would have sunk before I would have kind of pulled myself out of the situation that I was in. So, yeah, I think that you need to look at what and then figure out the how as you go along is definitely what I would say to people, because if you start thinking about the how from the beginning, you'll still be in the same position a year later or two years or five years, however long it is.

That's great advice. Thanks for sharing that. And I've definitely felt that, yeah, when you think about the how too much, it's like working from the outside in. But you've got to solidify the internal first. Yeah. Work out the what and then the how can unfold. Yeah. Thank you for that. And you mentioned you worked with a life coach then, and that sounds like it was pivotal for giving you that permission to say, hey, I don't want to be a lawyer anymore. Let's leave that behind. What was it in particular about working with a life coach that really helped you and gave you that permission?

I think that I'd heard about coaching. I knew friends that trained as coaches. I didn't know a huge amount, but about what a coach did. And it wasn't something I was against. It's just something that I hadn't really pursued. And I think the reason why I saw a coach is because the coach I saw was an ex colleague of mine. And it was kind of like this whole thing of the universe coming together. I was in London for work. She'd already quit our firm, but was training as a coach. We'd kind of met, we'd had dinner. I'd explained that I was at this crossroads. I knew I was going to be leaving, I didn't know what I was going to do. And she'd said, well, maybe coaching can help. And it wasn't pushy or anything. She just said, you know, it might help. I can coach you or I can put you in touch with some colleagues of mine. And so for me, it was probably the first time going into a situation where you sit, I was sat speaking to somebody who was listening to me, but not giving me all of this advice, but actually asking me what were at times quite uncomfortable questions because it was forcing me to confront things within myself and to confront why I was thinking a particular way. Why did I think that I could only do law? Why did I. Why was everything that I was saying as alternatives to where I was right then or related to law? Why was I nervous about or about speaking about my passions? And I still have the notebook for my first session. And I kind of wrote down, she's like, write down sort of of other things that you could do. And there was a list of five things which were all related to law, either going in house or into a different area of law or whatever. And in sort of smaller writing underneath that I'd kind of written down yoga and wellness. But I hadn't kind of said it. And it wasn't until I think session three. And it was that sort of obviously that constant probing where I just sort of like an out of body experience, saw myself sort of speak out, I want to do something in yoga and wellness. And it was like the heavens had opened up and suddenly my mind was more expansive and all of these sort of ideas and opportunities started to flow through. And she said to me, your energy completely changed from that moment forward. And that then solidified for me that I'm not meant to do this and I don't really know what I'm going to do or where I'm going to end up. But I know it isn't this and I know I need to go and find out. And so it was kind of like I'd started this personal development quest kind of a little bit ad hoc and a little bit all over the place. And now it was a case of, okay, I still don't really know, but I know that I need to go down this path. I know I want to help people like me who are in this situation and that may be through yoga. So let's start with that and see where it takes me.

Beautiful. So that's a nice segue into what you do now. So, yeah, if you could share a bit about more about that, that would be great. So how did you go from then to actually being a qualified yoga teacher and leading people through yoga and being a life coach?

Sure. So I saw Life Coach in January. I knew that I was potentially going to have the opportunity to be made redundant when I got back to Singapore and so came back.

Sorry. I love how you called that an opportunity.

Yeah. And I think that again, it's that shift. I think if I'd been told a year or 18 months before that I was going to remain redundant, it would have been a mass panic. But because I already knew that I wanted to get out and being made redundant was going to give me the opportunity to get out and not have to jump back into another firm because I was having conversations with other firms. But I just knew that I didn't want to do that. And so now it's like, okay, so I can get out and I can have this period of time where I don't have to work. I can just focus on what it is I want to do. And so, yeah, the opportunity arose. I knew that I was going to use my time out to do my yoga teacher training because I'd always wanted to do that. I'd got deeper into my practice and I felt that that was the way I was going to help people like me, because yoga had helped me so much. So that was supposed to happen in April and then Covid happened and so, yeah, it kind of threw things up in the air. So we went from a plan of to yoga teacher training in April, leaving Singapore in May, spending a month in Bali, then coming back to the UK to okay, well, Singapore is the safest place to be, so let's hang out here for a while. So I did my teacher training in July, went straight into teaching, loved it. And through the teaching and through the podcast I eventually then created called the Yoga Dome, which was about people whose life had changed through yoga. Because that's what happened to me. People were saying to me they really enjoy the conversations on the podcast. They really enjoyed the things I was saying on Instagram. And I was being asked to speak to people who were kind of maybe not where they wanted to be in their jobs and to kind of have these conversations. And those conversations were proving really beneficial to the people I was speaking to. And I also enjoyed having them. And people were saying to me, well, maybe you should coach or have you thought about coaching? And I was like, no, I don't want to coach, I just want to teach yoga. And enough people said it to me that I just thought, okay, how did I get from where I was to where I am now? Not sort of physically, but mentally? What was my mindset? What are the shifts that were needed? And I kind of wrote them all down and kind of put together this sort of six week beta program. And a couple of the people I'd already been speaking to and kind of helping were like, I'll go through that. Like, let me test it out for you. And so we did that. And for me, it was an amazing experience. Sitting down with people for at the time it was 90 minute sessions each week and seeing the shifts in their mind and seeing the changes that they made. And even now seeing the changes that they made in their life and where they're going now and how they are now was just like, this is, this is what I was looking for. This is the meaning that I wasn't getting in law. This is the, this is kind of what I feel my purpose is. And so, yeah, we left Singapore that December, moved back to the uk and I decided that I was going to focus on coaching. So I still want to teach, but coaching was the way that I was going to go. And I sort of said out loud, I'm a coach. And then it became real. And I was like, okay, now I need to figure this thing out.

Amazing. I love that. And from what you shared there, it feels like it all unfolded in a very organic way. Again, you weren't getting too caught up on the how, you know, you'd set this intention.

Your.

What was in the wellness space that looked like just yoga at the beginning, and then suddenly you were getting invited to share your experience and help others, and suddenly that became a life coach. It was just like this organic process. And I think it's a great example of you don't always need to worry about the. What things will. Will unfold if you keep following, I guess, the little clues that you have and keep following what. What brings you joy. And yeah, even then when you were sharing about it, I saw you light up as well about those transitional stories. And, yeah, that's so, so powerful. It has so much meaning, doesn't it?

It does. And I think the thing is, as well that I'd like people to understand is that if I hadn't started, I wouldn't have known. So if I'd spent the early stages really drilling down into kind of what I was going to do and how I was going to do it and mapping things out, I wouldn't have got to this stage, because what I would have done is I would have got deep into the weeds and I would have been like, well, I can't do this because I've now decided I'm going to be a yoga teacher and I'm going to put out yoga content. I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that, and you spend all that time thinking about what you should do. Whereas actually, it was through starting that I managed to kind of like, try it here, try a bit there, do a ton of things wrong, sign up for a ton of courses that weren't right for me to kind of find how I wanted to be and how I wanted to sort of live and how I wanted to run my business and who I wanted to help. And that couldn't have happened in the abstract. It had to happen through practical application. And I mean, I. I never would have done a podcast when I was in law. I did a podcast, but even when I did the podcast to then decide, actually, I need to take a break from this because my direction's completely changed and do something else, you know, that would have been a really difficult decision before because it'd been like, oh, well, what will people think? And people think I failed, and blah, blah, blah. But for me, it was just a natural thing to do. And this has proven to be the case on the journey that I do what I like to do, I try things out, and if I feel it's not working or it's not aligned with what I want to do, I do something else. And that would only have come with the work that I've done, and through working with the coaches that I've worked with and through doing the work that I've done myself. It definitely wouldn't have come from my time as a lawyer. Just because of that lawyer mindset, really, that everything has to be perfect, that you can't make a mistake, that you. You can't do certain things, you can't say certain things, you have to be a certain way. Whereas the beauty of your own thing, you can just be yourself and people take you. Take you as they find you, and either they like you or they don't. You can't really do anything wrong because you're living your truth. And when you're living your truth, what you're saying is true to you. I mean, nobody else can sort of tell you if that's right or wrong.

Absolutely. High five to that. Everything you just said there was absolutely golden. Love it. It's like you almost gave yourself a permission slip to make a change. And once you've made one change, like, other changes are easier. And then like you were saying there, comparing it to the classic kind of lawyer mindset, it's like you have to stay entrenched in this one thing, and if you change, it's a failure. And I've been through that, like, lots of ego deaths during my post big law phase of changing and experimenting and just feeling things out. And yeah, in the beginning, yeah, my ego is a bit like, can you change again? No, no. This one thing needs to work and you need to stick at it.

And.

But then, actually, similarly to you, I think I thrive in experimenting, and I think that's how we truly embody something. You can't really share something with authenticity until you've, like, fully experienced it and can embody it as well.

Exactly. I say the same thing about coaching. I don't think you can be an effective coach if you haven't had coaching yourself. Because I think to be an effective coach, I mean, people get hung up on certifications and all of this kind of stuff. But I've never hired a coach based upon the certification I've hired a coach, upon their energy and whether I think that they can help me, they're the most important things. Can they hold that space for me to be vulnerable and to sort of share what I need to share? And can they ask me the questions they need to ask me to unlock what needs to be unlocked? That's what it is. And so in order to train, to coach my clients effectively, I need to believe in the power of coaching. I need to believe that coaching works. And so whatever it is that you want to do, I feel you have to have that belief in order to be convincing. And if you have that belief, then I don't think you then have that fear of being salesy because you're, you're evangelizing. Really, you're talking about something that is real to you and people can feel that. People can feel that energy. And yeah, in terms of sort of trying things and figuring it out, you need to, I feel you need to go through a number of steps. I think that you can get hung up on. I don't have this or I don't have that. And what I like to do with my clients is say, okay, well just think about these three things first of all, and let's start there. And I think the three things that you need to, you need to have, first of all, you need to have clarity. You need to know who you are. So that comes back to the alignment and the values. And you need to know kind of what it is you want to do. Like if you could do anything, if you could live your perfect day, your perfect year, your perfect week, what would that look like? And then once you have that clarity, you need to then move to the next stage, which is the confidence stage. And you need to have the confidence to believe that you can do that thing, that that thing is attainable to you. I think a lot of the times we look at people who are inspirational and we think that they're really inspirational and they're. But that's them. That's not for me. So you need to get to a stage where you feel confident that, well, they did it. There's no reason why I can't. And then I think the last stage is you then need to have the courage to move forward and to take action, because that's where a lot of people stop. They're scared to take that first step. I remember my first Instagram post on my sort of new account, Ryan Spence Yoga. It was then and agonizing for weeks over. Does this read right what are people going to think? Like, how am I going to do this compared to now, where I can write a post in a few minutes sometimes and just put it up and there will be a typo here or a missed comma there, whatever. And it doesn't matter because it's more about the message. It's more about what I'm trying to get across. And the thing about courage and confidence is that it's. The more you do it, the easier it gets in the sense that once you've done something hard and you know that you can do that, you go and try the next thing that's hard and then the next thing, the next thing. So I called it stacking. Courage Stacking. You're kind of. Each time you're layering on top of each other something that's hard, something that's difficult, and then you look back. And I used to like to do this monthly. Some people do it weekly, some people not at all. But I like to keep a wind journal and look back and think, wow, I did all of that. And then that then spurs you on for the next month to kind of think, okay, well, I did all of that then. So of course I can do this. Of course I can reach out to this person to help me with this. Of course I can reach out to that person to do an Instagram live. Of course I can kind of write this Instagram post that might be a little bit edgy. Whatever it is, you've already built up that muscle, that action of being courageous and taking action.

I love that term. Courage stacking. I've not heard that before.

Love it.

I'm going to use that. Amazing. So if someone's listening to this and they're just like, yeah, maybe they're in big law and they're feeling a bit burnt out and they're like, oh, my God, Ryan has spoken to me like, I am feeling all the feels and they want to reach out. What would kind of coaching with you look like? How could you help them? Would it be those steps you've just taken us through that you take them through? Yeah, if you could just share more around that, that would be great.

Yeah, sure. So typically I am. I work with people for initial period. Well, one on one, and for initial period of three months and to kind of like really get down to it. So I'm certified in high performance coaching and there is a framework there, and it's about sort of developing sort of habits and tools and strategies in certain areas, like clarity, like persuasion, like confidence. And that sort of thing. And then if we continue beyond the three months, then we'll just dive deeper. But it's generally led by the client and sometimes we'll have a particular session in mind and the initial conversation with the client will take us elsewhere. And so that's fine. It's all led by the client. So that's the program. I've also recently started offering intensive. So that's 90 minutes where we can just focus on a particular aspect. So it might be clarity or confidence or courage. So say for example, you had to give a big presentation or there's something which you really needed to do but you were really feeling unsure about. We could have a 90 minute intensive on confidence and sort of coaching you on that. Or I'm seeing somebody this week actually who is actually in law but is not really sure of her direction and where she wants to go. So we'll sort of spend 90 minutes focusing on clarity and trying to get her clarity on that. So they're kind of the two things I have going on at the moment. And I love one to one coaching. At some point I do have a sort of group coaching program in mind and that will develop as time goes on. But having that one on one interaction, seeing that same person every week, seeing that development, seeing those breakthroughs again, it goes back to what I said that when I did the beta, it just, it just lights me up. It just really energizes me. And I know that the clients get a lot out of. Out of that situation too.

Amazing. Thanks for sharing that. And I can see, yeah, the benefit of both, like taking someone on a longer journey. We're going deep, we're unpacking all sorts of things. Or there's like a laser session where you dig into a particular issue. Yeah, awesome. And I know you are well known for the hashtag biglore dropout. I'd love to hear a little bit more about that, like why you're so passionate about being a pioneer for big law dropouts. I'm with you on that, but I'm interested to hear your take.

Yeah, it's funny, it's one of those. It goes back to what I said before about just trying some things. And I think I used the hashtag a few times not long after I left when I kind of first started venturing into Instagram just to kind of have a unique hashtag. And I felt that it was actually. No, I'll tell you exactly where it came from. So I wrote a poem called the Rhyme of the Big Law Dropout. And it was slightly tongue in cheek and slightly autobiographical. And, yeah, that's kind of where I first used the term. And I was like, I like that because I was in big law and I'm no longer in big law. And the term dropout actually has a negative connotation to it. Talk about college dropout, people dropping out of school. But I've dropped out of things before. I dropped out of uni the first time I went. I mean, I dropped out of college. I failed A levels. I mean, I've dropped out lots of times, and it hasn't been terminal to my life by any stretch of the imagination. And so actually, I felt, well, if I can normalize dropping out and use it as a term of endearment, as a term of inspiration. The fact that dropping out isn't a bad thing. Dropping out just means that you're leaving something which maybe you've been conditioned for, maybe something which you think you should do, and you're actually going after something that you really want or something that lights you up. I think that that basically encompasses everything that I'm about or everything that I want to be about and everything that I want to show people. And the more I use it, the more I'd get the odd comments saying, I really like that. And, you know, I mean, and it really stands out. Or I kind of. It really. It really kind of resonates with me. And now it's just the thing that I. That I use. You know, there's actually an Instagram handle, the Big Lore Dropout, which came after the hashtag, which is. I think it's like lots of law memes, which is actually quite a good account. It's quite funny, and I follow it. But, yeah, the hashtag came before the account, and they're unrelated. Definitely.

Yeah. You created it. Oh, I'll follow that account, though. Yeah. It's funny, it sounds good. And I love what you say there. Like, yeah, dropout has these negative connotations. And again, it's like you're giving that permission slip to people to say, hey, no, it's okay to experiment, it's okay to change. And you're a great example of that. You just sharing then that you failed your A levels, you dropped out of university, yet you're still a success, and success can look different to other people. I'm sure you've got your internal version of success, but even from an external version, society's version of success, you are successful. Look at everything you've achieved, yet you've been a dropout and you are a dropout, and I love that you're sharing it in, like, an empowered way. Yeah, the big Lord dropout.

Yeah.

Reclaiming. I think that there's lots of examples of people reclaiming words that were previously used in a negative way. And for me, this is one of those ways. I mean, I did a post once about all the ways that I. Well, actually wasn't all the ways I failed because the caption wouldn't be long enough. But, you know, I mean, the ways that I fail, because I think that we get. People get so hung up on failing. And the fact of the matter is that failing is great because it's how you learn. It's how you figure things out. And if you kind of let it sort of really, sort of bring you down and sort of stop you from trying anything new, then you'll never really. You never really find what works for you. You never really live. I mean, I talk about taking people from a life of lethargy to a life that's lit. And for me, that. That lethargy of when you're going through the emotions, you're not really enthused by what it is that you're doing, even though you can do it and you're good at it, and you're not really. You're not really living to a life where you're getting up each day and you're doing things that excite you. And yes, not every day is amazing, and not every moment of every day is amazing. But when you're consciously and intentionally doing those things that light you up, making those decisions that light you up, that's when you start to live life the way that you want to live it and not the way that you're told that you should live it. You should sit in this office and you should climb this ladder and make all this money. And if you're miserable, well, that's just part of the course, but that's not the way you have to live at all. So, yeah, be a dropout, people.

Exactly. High five to that. Awesome. Right, so I'd love to ask you a question that I ask every guest. Well, two questions. Firstly, if you could go back and have a chat with the version of Ryan who was, you know, beginning to feel a bit off, and he was like, what is this Law Game all about? He was maybe in the villa in Bali trying to reclaim his holiday. If you could have a chat with him now, what would you tell him?

I would say trust your gut. I think that if you follow your intuition, you will generally lead you in the right direction. And I think that, that Ryan then was probably concerned with what people would think and what people would say and also with the how. How maybe say, well, how are you going to make money doing this? How are you going to do that? How's this going to happen? So I would say trust your gut. If you're. If something doesn't feel right, it feels a little bit off. And that lasts for a period of time. It's probably because it's not for you. And so then use the time to find what is right for you. And I think that what I probably could have done differently is. The thing is, I just didn't know then or I probably could have done differently with the knowledge I have now is use the time that I had when I was still in big law to actively research the alternatives as to what I could do. Because there was a lot of time there that I could have used to do that. And I think that if I'd been clearer that this isn't what I want to do, I know I can do other things, I'm going to go and explore them, that would have been fine. But because my beliefs were limited, I just didn't really see beyond, okay, let me speak to this recruiter and let me kind of go to. Go to sort of that, that, that partner there and have a chat. So, yeah, trust your gut, follow your intuition, and don't feel that you have to do something just because you've always done it.

Powerful advice. Thank you. And what makes you legally different?

So I was thinking about this, and I think that it's not necessarily just legally related, but just kind of how I feel I am different or what I feel kind of makes me. And you said at the beginning something about me going all in, and I think that's what it is. Once I commit to something, I'm all in. And that has a good and a not so good side to it. I mean, the good side is, is that, I mean, I'm tunnel vision, I'm committed, and people can see that commitment and see that energy. The not so good side is that I tend to want to do all the things now, which I definitely was. Was doing in the, in the early part of figuring out the business, as I said, trying to do all the courses, do all the strategies, be on all the social media platforms, do a podcast, think about doing YouTube. And I think that it's going all in, but it's narrowing the focus. And that's kind of where I've got to now. There was a lot of talk at the year about words of the year, and my word for the year was simplicity. And then I've since added to that. And my word for the year is playful simplicity. And that's how I want to live life and how I want to. To run my business. It has to be fun, it has to be simple. And when you're. When I'm working with clients, I mean, it has to be simple. Like we can think that we have to give all of this and that's going to create the value. And actually sitting down with someone for an hour, there's immense value in that, you know? Absolutely immense value. You don't necessarily need all of the other bells and whistles. It's fine if you want to do them and you feel that they're a value for your clients, but don't do them because you feel you need to do them, because, I mean, that's what's needed or that's what you feel is going to help. So, yeah, what makes me legally different is I'm committed and I go all in. I just need to keep remembering to rein that in sometimes.

Awesome. Love that. It's definitely the manifesting, generating you as well, I think. Yeah, it's your natural way, which is amazing. I love that as well. Simplicity. I think we can all take a piece of that away from us in a society that wants us to do, do, do more. And yeah, I think simple, simple can lead to more success, certainly.

Yeah. More space. And it comes back to, okay, what, what success means. You, what kind of life do you want to live and success means to me, I mean, I have my ideal week in my head, kind of like how that is and how many hours I would work and I mean, what I would do with my kids and I mean, I'd be doing a yoga session here and sitting a person. Like, I have this idea. So if I'm trying to do everything and I use this, I use this, I use this a lot. When people sort of talk to me about going from being a lawyer to a yoga teacher before, it's kind of like if I hadn't done that internal work, I would have been a lawyer and have been stressed and unhappy. I would become a yoga teacher, and it would have been stressed and unhappy because I wouldn't have figured out kind of who I am and what it is that I want. And so actually now I know what the life is that I want. And I don't want to be doing all the things I want to do the things and focus on the things that light me up and that give me the space to do the other things I want to do outside of the business, like hang out with my kids, take them to and from school, do crazy things with them, go off and sort of live in somewhere hot and sunny for six weeks of the year or whatever it is. Then I can start to create a business and a life that fits in with that, as opposed to trying to do 40, 50, 60 hours a week like I was doing as a lawyer and thinking, God, I left corporate to kind of be my ambassador. Now I'm just kind of working myself harder than I was working.

So, yeah, Yeah, I love that. And it's interesting you said the word space, because spaciousness is my word of the moment. And that's what I'm. That's my check in. Oh, does this feel spacious again? I think because I've been through that journey of cramming everything in, doing more, thinking that success. And now I'm like, no, spaciousness is success. Exactly. Room to do what, what you enjoy. Room to create. And I love what you shared there as well. Like, you can. You can change your career. Like, you could have gone from a lawyer to a yoga teacher, but that wouldn't necessarily necessarily solve your problems. You can take the same patterns across with you, and that's why the internal work is so important. Yeah. So thanks for that reminder. I think that's an awesome takeaway. So awesome. That brings us to the end. How can listeners connect with you? So if they want to follow you on Instagram, where can they find you? If they want to reach out and work with you, what's the best way to get in touch?

So Instagram is my playground. So you can find me there@iamrinespence. And yeah, I'm quite active on there. I actually quite enjoy Instagram most of the time anyway. And you can head to my website, which is iamrinespence.com and from there you can book a discovery call, learn a bit more about me, book a call and sort of. We can have a chat and sort of see what is you need and whether I can help you and how we can work together. And if you need help with your confidence, I have a free confidence journal that you can access there as well, which is a set of prompts that I use sometimes when my mind is telling me that I can't do something and to kind of stay in my comfort zone. So it kind of helps to kind of expand your mind and sort of get yourself to a Place where you can be like, no, I can do this, I can do hard things. So yeah, go ahead and check that out and hopefully that helps you, helps you gain more confidence in the decisions that you need to make or that you want to make going forward.

Cool. Yeah, that sounds like an awesome tool. Thank you. And yeah, I'll pop all your details in the show notes. And yeah, I love what you say there about Instagram. It's like you playground and I think when you take that energy to it, it's a playground. It just lightens it a bit. And yeah, you've been sharing some like funny, playful content, which I love.

So yeah, yeah, I think I stressed over Instagram at the beginning because I thought everything had to be a particular way and, and, etc, etc. But no, I think that, I think from sort of earlier this year when I started to sort of just treat it as, as a playground and as fun as, I leaned more into just being myself rather than again doing kind of what I felt that you needed to do. Yeah, it was, it's great. And I just share and people like it or they don't, but yeah, I find it a lot of fun.

Amazing. Well, thanks so much for that, Ryan. It's been awesome to chat to you, amazing to dig into your journey. Yes. So varied. I love, I love every piece of it and yeah, keep going, keep experimenting and being you.

Oh, thank you, thank you. Yeah, thanks for inviting me and I think it's really good what you do with the podcast. When I was in Big Law, I didn't think there were any resources out there that could help me and I think if podcasts like this had been around, it kind of would have really helped to focus the mind. So no, thanks for having me on and yeah, hopefully the listeners out there will get some real value and yeah, live the life that they want to want to live and not what they think they should.

Thanks, Ryan, really appreciate that. And that's exactly why I created this because there was nothing at the time when I wanted to leave Big Law. And absolutely, yeah, I know for sure the listeners will take so much value from this. Yeah, it's jam packed. So thanks again.

Thank you.

Thank you so much for tuning in.

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