BigLaw Dropout to A Life That's Lit 🔥with Ryan Spence

Welcome to Carve your own fucking path, a podcast featuring candid interviews with unconventional entrepreneurs who are boldly building a business and life on their own terms. I'm Willow, your host video producer at Bceen Productions at B seen. We are on a mission to elevate your online presence, offering remote video production and digital marketing services, ensuring that your company makes an unforgettable impression with those who matter most. All of the guests on this show also have a big mission and inspiring story to tell. You'll hear the messy truths and unconventional paths of entrepreneurs who are unapologetically blazing their own trail. So if you've been waiting for a sign to carve your own fucking path, this is it. Okay, onto the show. My next guest wasn't always teaching yoga and coaching lawyers and corporate professionals to live a life that's lit. Ryan Spence worked as a big law lawyer for well over a decade before he decided to carve his own path and stop trading precious time for big money doing something that he lacked enthusiasm for, or as he refers to it as a life of lethargy. In this episode, you'll hear Ryan's personal journey of how he discovered his true calling after a big wake up call and how you too can change paths if you tune out your inner critic and really listen. So I urge you to listen to the end to hear how you can apply his three guiding principles towards living a lit life starting today. Okay, let's meet Ryan. Ryan, I'm so glad to have you on the podcast. Carve your own fucking path. I can't wait to hear about your path because you have taken a huge turn starting off as a big lawyer, as you call it, and now you're a life coach, high performance coach, and yoga teacher, among many other things, I'm sure. So let's just dive into your backstory and I mean, take us back to wherever you want to start, but ultimately, like the path that you were on before and then that moment, you know, if you can describe, like that moment of, okay, I'm just, I'm going to carve my own, my own way here.

Sure, no problem. Well, first off, thanks for having me, Willow. And I gotta say, I love the title of the podcast. Just the name itself, but also just in the time that we're in, I think it's a thing that a lot of people are thinking about. So, yeah, I think that's fantastic. So very happy to be here. Yeah. So I was, I guess what they called a big law lawyer, which all that means really is I worked for One of the, I guess the top 10 sort of international firms and that, that's kind of what I did. I came from some time in the music business, which I loved and was my passion, but wasn't making much money and so saw law as a way to actually, yeah, really start to kind of, kind of make a bit of money, get back into the music business and build my career from there. And then I discovered the world of the city, as they call it in London. I guess it will be Wall street in the States, you know, I mean, the world of high finance and big deals and headlines and stuff. And that kind of led me away. The idea of being able to work internationally and actually make a salary, which I had never seen before. I mean, it had zeros on it for a start, which is great. That got accepted at a firm, started there, did my training, qualified into finance, into capital markets and yeah, lived the life in London of a junior lawyer, really. Working hard, playing hard, making decent money, eating in nice restaurants and nice bars, spending late nights in the office, you know, that kind of thing. And then I got the opportunity to go to Singapore, which I'd been to as a trainee solicitor for six months. I traveled to, during my time traveling around Asia. And I was literally like, bit their hand up, was like, yeah, I'm there, send me now. When can I go and move to our Singapore office in 2014. And I, I mean, I loved Singapore and I initially loved moving out and working in Singapore. I kind of loved the lifestyle, obviously, the weather, deals. It was a smaller office, teams. And yeah, I kind of could see my path ahead of me, you know, I mean, in terms of moving up through the ranks and potentially where that would take me. And that was kind of the plan. And yeah, like most lawyers, there were always sort of things that irks me about the job, but it's kind of part, I mean, part and parcel of the job. And you kind of look at the benefits, you just think, well, this is kind of what I should be doing. I've got a great job, just keep on moving. And I guess the first inkling of real, like, do I want to be here? Was after having my first child, okay, kind of wanting to go home and you know, be around to sort of bedtime and to sort of be, be more present. And the demands of the job weren't really allowing that. And I kind of kept, kept suppressing that voice, like, no, I mean, what else am I going to do? This is it, this is kind of what I have to do. And now I'VE got a family to support. Like, just, just keep going. And that voice got louder.

Okay, whose voice was it?

Good question. Whose voice was it? So I think everyone has that inner critic. And what I. What I found sort of later on I can do my own personal development journey is giving that inner critic a name helps. So my inner critic is called Frank. Okay. Or for reasons that literally I can say Frank whenever he's talking to me.

Fuck off, Frank. Love that.

At the time, he didn't have a name, so I didn't have that training. But, yeah, looking back, and he still comes up, you know, I mean, no matter where he gets. Still comes up. It's easier to suppress now. But yeah, yeah.

And so, so curious. So Frank is telling you to be home, though, with your kids? Well, no, I was.

I'm thinking that I kind of. This is kind of what I want. This is the sort of I want to be around for my kids. Okay. You're a lawyer, you've got a very good job, you're successful, whatever that means. Like, you just got to do this. This is kind of what society tells you to do. You, you go through school, you get good grades, you get a good job, and you kind of climb the ranks. This is what you do. So what else, what else are you going to do? You're a lawyer. You've done it for so long. What you're going to do?

Okay, so got it now. So, yeah, Frank is like, stay in this lane and keep trudging along. What was Frank's biggest value?

Ooh. It's an interesting question. I guess Frank's biggest value, or the thing that Frank wanted most was to fit in, I guess. I guess not really a value, but it's.

Yeah, no, acceptance. It's acceptance.

Yeah, it's acceptance. It's fitting into kind of what is expected of, of you as a person. And you're expected to take care of family, which means you make the money and which means you make a very good, good salary. And that means that you do job and you do the things that are necessary, and you, you take the path and you, you aspire to be partner in a big law firm. This is what you do. You're on this train now. I'm like, you don't get off. Like, why would you get off? Because getting off, like the road to ruin, effectively. So.

Yeah, right.

That's kind of the message that. That was from Frank, from that inner critic.

Okay. And going farther back now, childhood. Ish times, like, did you have. When was this prescribed path That I call that, you know, the. Go to school, get good grades, get married, have, you know, that path. Who was, was it society that was telling you or did you feel like the pressure, parents, you know, friends that you were just kind of following along?

I mean, I think everything tells us that society, school, parents, everything tells us that way. And for me it was, it was no difference. I mean, my, my mum had kind of gone back to university, got herself a degree, was, was a very big advocate for education and that was just kind of what, what you did. And I pushed back against it. I mean, my, my dream was to be a pop star. I was into music, I was into the arts and that was my thing, that was my passion. I think that's when I fully lived in myself and fully felt alive. And so I pushed back and said, I don't need school, I'm going to be a pop star. And I did that for a while. And I think that it just got to the point where all of that pressure from society, from seeing friends start their careers and kind of progress and do the usual things you would do, go on nice holidays, start to think about buying houses, all of that kind of thing, and I was still waiting for that break. I probably just, I probably just had that sort of confidence and belief just kind of squeezed out of me or I just thought, okay, I just need to kind of go and do what everybody else is doing. And that's kind of to, to a law career and to a corporate.

Okay. Is music still a passion of yours and do you still pursue it in any way?

It's a passion, but not, I don't pursue it in that way. I listen to music, I mean, music to be part of who I am. I'm a huge hip hop fan in particular, and music's a big part of who I. It's what lights me up is what gets me going, what's what helps with my friends and I, you know, there's a lot of criticism of hip hop, but for me there's a lot of hip hop where I take a lot of inspiration from, from the stories of kind of getting out of one situation and lifting yourself up and becoming successful, however you define success. So for me, music is a big part of me. But yeah, I don't no longer have aspirations to be a pop star.

Well, you never know. Now you have children, maybe they, you know, we'll get into it.

Yeah, that'd be good.

Yeah. And I'm curious about like when you take a passion and you make you convert it into A career, did it lose its spark for you?

Yeah, and that's a common thing. I see at the moment where people are saying that your passion shouldn't become your career. You should just remain as your passion. I didn't find that for me, I mean, the difference was that. Okay, yes, I could no longer. I no longer listen to music in the way that I listen to it. I listen to it with a far more critical eye. Like, because I was in the studio, so I saw how music was made. I was like, oh, that sounds really good here. Or they use this thing to make this sound here. And. But what it was, what I loved about it, is that it wasn't a job. It was a lifestyle. Like, I live. I made no money. My whole lifestyle was around music. So I was either in the office or in the studio, or I was going to two gigs or I was going to industry parties. So I had a very vibrant social life. It just revolved around free parties with free alcohol. I mean, there weren't.

Yeah.

Friends. It was very much about being in. But for me, it never loses. It never lose its alerts or it never lost its alert all night. I was fully in. And I think that through my life and through what I do is that once I'm into something, I tend to be all in.

Okay, well, that's a great role model for now, what you're doing with the coaching. So in the big law, how many years were you in in that world?

So when I left, I'd been alive for 11 years. Wow.

Okay.

Chunk of my life. Yes.

Yes. Okay. And your. I guess, material, like, success back then was about money and, like, material success. Yeah, you should say.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, I. Look, I. I like nice things, like nice hotels. I like. I like. I mean, I like nice resorts. I like nice drinks. I like nice food. I spend a lot of time in. In sort of luxury shops. I mean, I like all of that stuff. And being a lawyer at that level afforded me those opportunities. But what I've realized, sort of, sort of looking back now with the work I've been doing, is that a lot of that. Yes, I like them. But a lot of that sort of spending of cash was to kind of, I guess, appease the sort of lifestyle I was living within. Work. I mean, the sacrifices being made, the hours that I was doing, the stress, and also that sort of, I guess, questioning about whether or not I was on the right path. So it's kind of spending money to kind of, like, hide a problem that I didn't really Want to deal with.

Okay, yeah, a bit of validation, kind of like, okay, this is worth it. Did you move to Singapore with your wife or did you meet there? Curious if you moved alone?

Yeah, so we moved together. Well, I, we, we'd already met in London. Okay. I moved first, she moved six months later. But, but yeah, effectively we moved out there together. Yeah.

Okay.

Okay.

And so can you tell me about the like the transition period? Okay, so like maybe an aha moment of like, I'm going to start carving my own fucking path. Like this is. I'm done. Is there any defining moment that you can share?

So I think the defining moment where I actually was like, okay, no, now this actually has to change as opposed to, yeah, no, I know, I don't like this, but it might get better. It might get better or I'll do something about it later. Was December 2018, Christmas. And went to Bali for a holiday with friends. And I love Bali. I mean Bali's like I could just spend forever there is. It's just love it just a vibe about the place. And we arrived, we got in the cap to the villa and I got an email from a client that deal that had been dead was now back to life. And the other side wanted to close it by the end of the year. Which quick mental calculation meant that I was pretty much going to be working on this holiday. And so it proved. And so I was in this amazing place in paradise with my friends wanting to enjoy Christmas and New Year. But in the back of my was always work. And so spent, you know, I mean, in the spare room of the villa was basically my now my office. So I was taking calls, I was drafting documents, I speak to my clients, speaking to the other side's lawyers. And so it wasn't that sort of rest and relaxation that holidays vacation is all about. But the thing is this wasn't the first time. So it wasn't like, oh, I had this, this sort of experience for two weeks and I decided to quit. This was a culmination of years, particularly Singapore, of working on every holiday except for the two weeks I took off for my wedding and honeymoon. So basically every I'd gone on, I worked. And I was just like, this is not how I want the next however long I work for to be this. And I remember sitting, sitting on the plane on the way back saying to myself like, this has got to change. I need to figure out what I do and where I go from here. So that was kind of like the line in the sand. Still had no idea what that actually meant, where that was going to take me. I just knew that it wouldn't continue as it. As it had been.

Okay. And curious if your wife, your family was supportive of this change or was like, did that feel threatening because this lifestyle that you've created, that also, you know, is a. Is a shift.

Well, this is the other thing is that it took me a long time to actually say out loud. So, I mean, I have lots of sort of colleagues and there's lots of lawyers who complain about. About work. I mean, lots of people do at times. But to actually say you're going to quit and then to actually do it isn't something that a lot of people do. So for me, this was something I carried internally for a long time. I kind of said, yeah, I'm not. Kind of not happy, and I kind of think I want to do something else. But because I didn't have a clear plan of what I wanted to do, I didn't feel that I could verbally say I'm going to quit because the quote question is going to be, what are you going to do? How are you going to make money? Et cetera, et cetera. And I didn't have answers to those questions. So I kind of knew in my own mind that something had to change. But I didn't sort of say that out loud to people in a meaningful manner like, I'm going to quit on this day because I just didn't know how to pan out and where the roads were going to take me.

Okay. And so then personal development.

Yeah.

Was the. So, yeah, tell me about that experience. Like it being introduced to this new world, assuming that it was new for you.

Yeah. So I knew a little bit about personal development. And I think like a lot of people, I'd kind of half read a book here and sort of watched a motivational YouTube video there and. But I think what it was is that with. I kind of got more into. Well, the first thing I did was like, started January 2019, saying I need to find something to kind of occupy me, to challenge me. And I signed up for a boxing match. So I trained to white collar boxing match. An absolutely awesome experience because it gave me a renewed focus and discipline. And actually what it also did is led me back to my yoga practice, which had been sort of very sporadic to that point.

Okay.

That led me to going onto a yoga retreat in November 2019. And that retreat gave me the space and time to kind of really start to kick some things around in my head and open my mind And I think opening my mind through yoga then made me more receptive to delving into the world of personal development and to actually start to look at some of the common themes that were coming through and to start to kind of think about, okay, there's another world here. Let's kind of sort of see if the way that I've been doing things for so long is actually the way it has to be or whether that can change.

So, yeah, right, okay.

How it happened. So you.

Did you have the language already? Clearly you've been.

Language.

Yeah. Limiting beliefs. And okay, so this is all like a new. A new language.

So you have.

You had yoga, so you have maybe meditation as well. So you've had some kind of introduction to that. Okay, so what happened next?

So, yeah, it's that whole thing. I'm very big believer that the universe will. Has a plan for you, and once you're open to it, it will reveal itself. And yeah, so it's just like a stream of events. I went on the yoga treat came back. It started this whole kind of change in me. I decided to try being vegetarian for a month, and I got two weeks in and then became vegan overnight. Um, so that was a whole another shift. And then in December, one morning, I just got called into. Into a meeting at work and was like, this opportunity to come up to go to London for two months to work for this client. There was the possibility that redundancies might be being made in the office. So I was like, okay, fine, I get to go to London for two months and kind of have. Have sort of a bit of a free space and catch up with some people. And I did that. And then again, I met an ex colleague and we hung out and then another ex colleague was in town. We all met for dinner. That ex colleague who was training to be a life coach, kind of where I was. And she was like, it sounds like you're in a place where coaching could help you. And I'd heard of coaching. I had friends that trained as coaches. But I didn't know a huge amount about what coaching was or how it could help me. But the way that she spoke about it, and I liked her, I trusted her. I was like, okay. And she says, well, look, I could coach you all if you want to. I said, okay, let's. Let's do it. So I remember having my first session in my rented apartment in London and her saying, okay, if money was no objects and you could do anything, like, what would you do? And I kind of made this list and there was like five things on the list and they were all law. You know, I could be in house, I could. Because I hadn't really allowed myself to kind of going back to the verbalization point to actually say out loud. It just didn't sound real. Like session two or three where I just felt myself like an out of body experience, say, I want to do something in yoga and wellness and I want to help people who feel stuck in law. Something along those lines. But then that was like, it was like the, the sort of heavens parted and suddenly all of these ideas are sort of shooting around and this sort of weight was lifted off my shoulders. And that was kind of when I decided that, okay, let's figure this out. Because I'd always thought about training to be a yoga teacher, but it's kind of one of those sort of things which people do, but not people like me, you know, that's why people. Yeah. And so that was kind of how it started. But all I knew was that I wanted to do something in yoga and wellness and I wanted to help people who had felt like I had done for the last sort of four plus years that they were in a situation that they couldn't get out of. That was my mission. But I had no idea how I was going to achieve it. All I knew was I was going to do my yoga teacher training and then take it from there.

So second session, life coaching and the heavens parted. That's a great testimonial. Yeah, yeah. That's incredible. I love this because it's questions that most people don't ask themselves. That's the thing and that's the value I really of, of coaching is asking those questions and then figuring out like the how. So all of these ideas, you're being flooded with them and then it's like, okay, then the next step. So with this coach, did you move forward with her and start implementing these things and you know, become a yoga teacher? Did you continue on that relationship?

Because she was my coach for a year, um, off and on. And yeah. So I booked my yoga teacher training. Um, I did that. It got delayed obviously because of COVID but then did that and started to teach, um, pretty much straight away, which was amazing. But I think what it, I think what the coaching gave me is that I, I didn't, I worried less about the how. I was just prepared to just start things and it gave me the confidence to just start things. And it was, it was all a process. I mean, you're consistently leveling up. I mean, something Looks really hard and then you kind of like do that thing and it feels great. So then the next thing doesn't look as hard and you kind of keep going from there. But. But yeah, that's what it did is it kind of gave me the courage to think, actually I can do this and I can figure it out along the way. And it made me sort of trust myself, trust my instincts and my intuition. And what I do now is completely different to what I thought I would be doing and what I was doing then. Like, I thought I would trained to be yoga teacher. I would teach corporates, get them to the map, and by getting to the mat, they would then kind of look within themselves and find their own path that way. And it apparent that the more that I started posting content, the more that I started speaking to people on, on my podcast and the more I just started having conversations with people who I knew that people wanted more than that. Some people were put off by yoga, but some wanted more. And I was getting asked to speak to people who were in jobs that maybe weren't that happy but were maybe inspired by what I had done about my path. And I just loved having those conversations and the people I was speaking to love the conversation and actually started to take action based upon them. So I thought, okay, let's maybe, maybe I could do this coaching thing. Let me have a think about that. And I sat down at a brain dump of everything I kind of had to go through to kind of get from where I was to. To where where I am now or where I was at the time and put together this sort of six week beta coaching program and mentioned it to a couple of people just sort of casually over lunch or over drinks and not thinking anything and they both put their hand up and said, I want to do that. Like, when can we start? So I suddenly had two clients and was now taking two clients through a six week coaching program. And it was absolutely fantastic. I started in Singapore, then we moved back to the UK and I continued on zoom over here. And it really kind of solidified for me that actually yoga was still going to be a part of what I did. But this is where I could make real change and have a real impact and really make a difference. And so yeah, I decided that coaching was going to be the way forward and that's what happened.

Amazing. I love this story of like as soon as you just one foot in front of the other and you know, make the decision, start taking these steps and people, it's like the magnet they were Coming to you. So it's like, it's. I mean, everyone has such a unique story and journey, how they become a coach, I think, especially. But it sounds like you were just. It just unfolded, you know, for you, and then you didn't have to overthink too much. It's like you just did it.

Yeah. And I think the thing is that if I hadn't. If I hadn't started where I was, I wouldn't have known that. If I had started, for example, saying, I want to be a coach, but I need to get a certification, I need to get a website, right? This. I would probably still be here now talking about becoming a coach one day.

Right.

Because I didn't. Because I started with my. I mean, what do you want to call it? Your purpose, my mission, my goal? I just knew that that's what I wanted to do. How I did that didn't really matter as long as I enjoyed it and it was aligned. But I just knew that that's the impact I wanted to have. And so for the yoga and then. And it's also then listening to going back to the universe, what the universe tells you and what are you. And taking on board and thinking, okay, well, I like this, but this could be interesting. Let me check that out. And if it works. It doesn't. If it doesn't. Okay. No, I don't want to do that. Let me try and do this. Have to start. Because as you start is that's when the opportunities unfold, you know, I mean, they won't fold if you kind of sit here trying to come up with a perfect plan.

Right.

You're just in your head, you need to be out in the world doing stuff and then see what comes up and see what's attracted to you and what you're attracted to. So, yeah, that's kind of how I look at it.

Exactly. Did you ever do any formal coach training?

I did, but what's interesting about that is that going back to what I was just saying, if I had wanted to be a coach from the start, I probably would have done it because I felt I had to do it in order to be a coach. Recently did. Coach training was two reasons. One, because I wanted to be a better coach. So I wanted to kind of be in an environment with other people who were coaches at various levels. So it was more for the experience and the environment than the actual training itself. As good as the training was. Also because I wanted to be working with lawyers. And lawyers are obviously very sort of.

They're like what's your credentials exactly?

Across the R's and dot the T's. So, yes.

Okay.

Made it an easier thing to kind of have a cert, say, okay, you know, I do have a certification. But what's interesting is that for myself, hiring coaches and for people that have hired me as a coach, no one's ever asked about certification because it doesn't matter. All I care about hiring is like, do I like the person? Do I resonate with what they're saying, and do I think that they can help me and hired me? What's attracted to me is that they. They've either been inspired by my story, but they also feel that I can understand theirs because they. That I've been in a similar world to what they're in. So then everything else is kind of just like, do you connect? Is there. Is there a sort of energetic alignment there? And if there is, you go, so I have a certification. Yes. I may get more in the. There's lots of things I'm interested in and would like to know more about. But. But yeah, I. I do use it a bit with my clients, but I found myself veering off path for my training because it's all about what that client in that room needs at that particular time. And intuitively I feel that I can then go there because I've been in the situations that they're in and kind of take them to work they need to get to.

So, okay, I love that. And it's. I just. It's great you point that out, because so many people I hear, I need this, this, this, and it's really. It's just not true. You know, you're able to speak the same language with lawyers. So that is who you primarily work with.

Yeah, lawyers and people in corporate, but yeah, lawyers, yeah. Whether they're in house or private practice or ex lawyers. But yeah, I like that because I know the world and they know that I know the world. Right.

So you have those credentials and. Yes. And you're living by example. That's the other thing. You've already. You've made. You've taken the leap. You're now on this. This new. This new path. You brought up intuition, which I also love that you said that. Is this something new for you to be led by intuition? I mean, again, it sounds completely opposite to what you were doing before looking back.

No, it's not. I remember distinctively, and this has always stuck with me. I remember when I was in law school, and I remember one of the tutors in law school I just got my position at the firm I ended up joining and I was kind of having this conversation with him because I was like, I don't really know this world, et cetera, et cetera. And he was just like, you've got great instincts and if you trust them, you'll be fine. And then I remember the partner I worked for in London also saying that to me on occasion as well. But it seems to be something that other people would say and I couldn't really accept. I would always second guess myself. And I guess, I mean, imposter syndrome is kind of a big burst thing at the moment, but it was that always second guessing yourself, you're going to be found out. So I think that I've always had it. I never necessarily always trusted it as much as I should, but I definitely trust it a hell of a lot more now. And again, that's all a process. And I think that for a lot of us, we don't because what we're told we should do is sometimes counter to what our intuition is telling us to do. And we look. And when you look around and everybody's doing the same thing, it's kind of difficult to go left and everybody else is going right. No. So you have to have a certain awareness of self and a certain strength of character and a certain amount of courage to be able to do that and stick with it and not kind of turn and be like, oh no, I'm going to turn back.

Right. Right. It's so hard. So you brought up courage and you work with the three C's a lot with clarity, confidence and courage. So could you walk us through that and what. And kind of define. I'm especially curious about confidence and what that means for you.

Sure. So, yeah, when I did my, my whole brain dump and kind of work through that, and then I kind of started to do my training and kind of get sort of deeper into, into the coaching and actually working with clients. I kind of wanted to simplify the process. And by that I mean that there's so much in personal development, so many terms and buzzwords and things that are thrown around. It can be quite overwhelming. So I thought, okay, if I was to sort of distill down to the essence kind of what I needed to get from where I was to, to where I am now, what would that be? And that's what I came up with, the three Cs, what I call the triple C method. And it's clarity. So clarity as to, first of all who you are. So it comes Back to that self awareness, like deep down within, who are you? What do you stand for? What are you? What are your values? What lights you up? Everything else aside, money you should make, the job you should have, the lifestyle you should live, who you should marry, whether you should have kids, leaving all of that aside, like deep down, what things kind of instinctively feel aligned with you, but also clarity as to what you want. And for me, that's not so much about the job that you want to do, it's more about life you want to live. And that can sound quite overwhelming. But you start small, so it can be something like, okay, what would your ideal day look like? What time would you get up? What would you do in the morning, what you do in the afternoon? Who would you hang out with? I mean, those sorts of things. And then you kind of start to sort of build up to more and more detail the kind of house, where that house might be, what the view might be, like all those sorts of things. But so, yeah, they're the kind of the two strands of clarity. And it's an ongoing process. And I think the third point of clarity is going back to what I said before, that clarity of purpose. What's your mission? What's your goal? I think we all want to do something meaningful. Meaningful means different things to different people. So it's finding what it is for you. I guess it comes back to that, your why thing that's bigger than yourself because that's, that's what's going to pull you through when times are hard and when things seem difficult. So find that thing that's bigger than yourself. So I guess, yeah, three strands to clarity. Once you have the clarity, you then need the confidence, and that's the confidence to believe that you can actually do it. That that mission, that purpose, that goal is attainable to, you know, I mean, not people like you, but you specifically. You need to believe that you have the answers within you and you need to trust yourself, your gut, your intuition, that it will lead you in the right direction. I think that a lot of people aren't confident about things because they haven't done them before. And there's a lot of sort of research about the whole confidence, competence loop. Like the more you become competent, the more confident you get. But I don't necessarily think that that's true because there are people who have a lot of competence in what they do, who've been doing it for years and are very experienced and they still don't have the confidence. So I think confidence has to be A different thing. I mean you have to, you have to. We all have confidence within us, but you have to find it within yourself. You know, there are great lawyers out there who still worry about a deal that they did years ago and whether they kind of did this right or that right. You know, I mean, so. Right. I don't necessarily think that the two are as sort of interlinked as some people probably think that. Hey, controversial view. So I'm sure some people will disagree.

Yes. And some people are confident and not competent.

Well, that's a whole. But then I would say that's arrogance, you know, I think. Yeah, then you're definitely, you're definitely saying that it's a fine line. But I think that you're definitely arrogance there. When you really can't do it, but you're shouting out louder than everybody else that you can, then yeah, yeah, you're kind of out of the loop.

Right.

But yeah, it's that kind of anything that can go in the calm that you can do this. And then once you've got, and you've got the confidence, you then need the courage. And the courage is that, that to be able to take that first step, to take action. I think where a lot of people fall down and I put myself in this category previously, going back to the half read books and the YouTube videos, is that we're in a time when we can amass so much information. There's a lot of information out there. So we get all of this information in and we become inspired. We have all of this inspiration but then we fall down on the action piece. And if you don't take action then you've just got all this information on this inspiration and then years time in exactly the same position you were when you first started. So it's getting that courage to take that first step and take action. And again it can be overwhelming. And so a technique that I use and talk about is courage stacking. So it's where you do something each day that they say do something each day that scares you. But it can be something as small as I'm quite introverted, so sort of having conversations with stranger in the street isn't really something that I do. Going to your coffee shop, speaking to the person, making your coffee, just striking up a conversation. For some people that's quite scary. But if you do that one day, the next day that isn't scary.

Right.

You might do something else. And you know, I mean that could be saying no to something. For example, maybe a friend asks you to do Something and you really don't want to do it, but you don't feel you can say no. Maybe you just say, actually, that's kind of not for me today. That could be the next step. So then you've done one thing, then you've done another thing. And then each sort of day, you kind of build and build. And what that does walks you closer to that sort of massive, scary thing way out there. I mean, in the distance. And it becomes. You become closer to it. So it's still scary, but it's not as scary as it once was. Bad, kind of the three pillars. There are then lots of offshoots under that. But I think that when you break it down into sort of those simple pillars, those three Cs, it becomes more manageable and easier for people to understand where it is that you're trying to lead them through your program, or even just content.

Curious if your clients are mostly wanting to get out of law, or is it just maybe to kind of create a better practice for themselves, you know, more of a lifestyle they want?

Yeah, sure.

Yeah.

So it's interesting because when I. When I first started, it's like, I want to get out of law, so I wanted to help other people get out of law.

Come with me.

But then as a coach, you have to be conscious of not. Not sort of putting your. Your own ideals onto. Then you'll know better than their friends or their parents or anybody else.

Exactly. Yeah.

So it comes back to that clarity. And so it's finding out what clients want. And. Yeah, I mean, the thing is that sometimes what people think that they do want isn't actually what they end up getting. So, yeah, I have one client who's a lawyer, doesn't necessarily want to leave law, but does kind of want to find a different path within it. And it's now very clear that the direction they want to go and whether that leads to a legal role within that industry or something different, they know that where they are now isn't where they want to be. I had another client who wasn't in law, but was in a corporate role and thought that she kind of wanted to get out of that, but actually found a place where she could set strong enough boundaries that she could still do her job and enjoy. Actually start to enjoy her job, but also carve out something else on the side for her that was for her, that supported her, which may or may not become a side hustle. So it really comes down to the individual client. I work with them to figure out what works for them. Because, look, law does work. I don't sort of think that law is evil or anything like that. I have friends who are still in law. I have friends who have no partner and love it. But everyone has to find the thing that works for them because it works for them, not because it's what they think they should be doing.

Right, exactly. So how about Frank, that inner voice? How often does he pop up?

He's still there. He's a little bit weaker than he was, but he's still there. I think the thing is, what I found about going out and so, again, trying to cope my own path is that it's. It's probably the biggest crash course in personal development that there is, because you're always wading into uncharted territories. Like, every day you're doing something which you haven't done before, whether that's marketing, creating content, sales, speaking to people on the phone, doing podcast interviews. I mean, giving speech. Everything's new. So you're consistently leveling up. So you. You have to keep doing that inner work. Like I have. I have coaches because I need the coaches to kind of help me as I get to that next level.

Right.

I'm fine here, but then I get here. Okay. I haven't been here before, so I kind of. I have my own tools. But it also helps to have that other person given that outside view and picking at things which you maybe haven't picked up because you're in the thick of it. So, yeah, Frank's still around, but I'm definitely better at dealing with him. And the more that I level up, the. The more downtrodden he becomes.

Yes. Okay. What. What are you most looking forward to right now?

Lots of things. So the business is relatively new, so I'm just really looking to kind of ramping that up at the moment. I. I still do a bit of lawyering, so I'm sort of freelancing for. I get the business off the ground, but. But, yeah, the idea was to kind of, like, really kind of build that up going into year, working on a book about the three Cs, just to kind of like, give people a little bit more clarity as to what that means. And that's about. So my own experience to kind of demonstrate again, basically, what we just talked about, what the three Cs are, why they're important, how they help me, and how they can help whoever's reading the book. So, yeah, a little bit behind on that, but I'm hoping to get the first track done sort of by early October and get it out before the end of the year. That's the. That's the plan.

That's exciting. Wow. That's.

That's. That's quite exciting. I really got into. Into. Into writing something I did a long time ago, but I've kind of got back into. Into enjoying it and loving it, so.

Okay, so it's a mix of personal stories with.

Yeah, okay.

Yeah, that's the most powerful.

Yeah. I think when I sat down initially, I was. I was. I wanted to write the book. You know, there's sort of the big memoir about your life and all. But that's kind of not what. It's not the best use of my time now, and it's kind of not what I think is needed now. I think what's needed now is something that's more practical, that kind of walks people. Okay. This is kind of where I was. This is where I am now, and this is how I got there. So people can then kind of take that away. Hopefully it'll be pretty short. They'll be able to read it in a relatively short space of time and then take things away from it. That's the idea.

Okay, that's great. It's such a great mix because people will remember the stories and then have something that they can apply to their own life. And at this point, what are you most proud of?

I think there's a few things I'm most proud of backing myself to not give in to, I guess, social pressure, really. I mean, I could quite easily have sort of walked out of my big law job and responded to the recruiters that are always reaching out to you and taking another job and continue doing the same thing that I was doing. But I think I'm proud that I made the concerted sort of effort and decision to draw that line in the sand and be like, no, I'm going to try this. So. And the big thing for me in doing that, I mean, there's lots of reasons, but I think one of my biggest whys is that, as you mentioned, I have two kids. I have two boys, relatively young, 6 and 3. And I think as parents, we always say to our kids, you can be anything that you want to be. And then at some point, we kind of squeeze them into this sort of funnel of you go through school and you have to do this and you have to do that and you have to do the rest of it. And we start asking questions like, what do you want to be when you grow up? And I didn't want to be that But I felt that if I was going to say to my kids, you can be whatever you want to be, and I wasn't going to force them in this way. I had to kind of lead by example. I couldn't be staying in a situation that wasn't aligned with me, with what I wanted and my values, because I felt I had to. So I'm proud of myself for doing that, and I'm proud of my kids and that they will now see me as an example that they can do that too. And rather than asking them, what do you want to be when you grow up? My question will be, as they get older, more like, what do you want your life to look like when you grow up? Because that, to me, that's a more important question. What do you want to feel when you wake up in the morning when you're a little bit older? So those questions to me are far more important. And that gives you far more scope then to make the decisions that are necessary to get you to that place, rather than just following the typical path that everybody else says that you should follow. I mean, if they say they want to be a lawyer, that will be difficult, but I'm hoping that nice, broad, open scope that anything actually is possible and follow that and I'll support them in doing that.

Yes, I love that. Because in that way, you're breaking the chain or the path that keeps getting passed down.

Exactly. Yeah.

You know, and again, leading by example is always the key.

Yeah, that's what people want to say. Right. So, yeah, it's easy to do that and just kind of hear people. Someone's telling you something needs someone who walks it like they talk it. I mean, going back to hip hop is a song I like, so.

Yeah, exactly. And so in. So how can people find you? And then what would be. So someone in corporate and, you know, who's a lawyer, just wanting to make some changes. What would be the best way for them maybe to consume your content and get in touch with you?

Sure. So I'm most prolific on Instagram, so you can find me there. I look at it as my playground a little bit. So I have all sorts of great content. And so I'm on Instagram @iamrinespence. I'm also on LinkedIn, which was a relatively recent thing. I kind of broke that frontier, so, yeah, you can find me there as well. Recently joined TikTok, which is interesting. It's a little bit of an experiment. That's just. I am Ryan Spence and my website, which is iamrinespence.com so there are the places you can find me and then to. Yeah, to kind of work with me. You can go to the website and just book a discovery call and we'll sit down, have a chat for an hour and great thing I love about discovery calls is that I get to have one on one conversations with interesting people. And I mean whether we sort of work together or not, they always leave thinking something differently than when they came. So discovery call is useful and great. So go ahead, check that out. Yeah. And to work with me then we can do have a three month one to one program or sometimes people either haven't done coaching before or need help with one specific issue. Like you've got to go and give a speech and you're really struggling with your confidence and you need some sort of coaching around that. So you can also book an intensive 90 minutes where we kind of delve deep into that one issue and kind of help you through that and with some support for a week or so afterwards. So. So yeah, go ahead and find me in all of those places and then. And drop me a line, say that you, you heard of me from podcast. It'd be great.

Awesome. And then your book, that's going to be finished.

Yes. Yeah. See now it's. Now I said it.

Now I said it.

Yeah, I have to complete it. So yeah, the book is coming.

Yeah, that's the key, right, Is you have to say it out loud, get other people. Yeah. So that's a huge one. I think some people just say, no, no, I'm not going to say anything until. But it's like just declare it.

Yeah, that's it. And now I've. I forced myself to, to sort of go ahead and prove. Proof to prove. I'm going to do what I say, you know.

Yeah, right. And you will definitely. You've made such huge changes in a really short amount of time. Just want to commend you for that and putting yourself out there and following that voice.

Thank you.

Because that is a lot of courage. Well, clarity, confidence and courage. All of those three things.

Yeah, thank you.

I appreciate that.

And I think the one thing I would like to leave listeners with is something I always say, which is that you have to be what you've always done. You have to do what you've always done. You'd have to be who you've always been. And I think that there's this thing that you're in something you've invested so much time, money, whatever, that you kind of just have to Stick with what's there. Now, you don't have to do that. You do have a choice. And I think the pandemic in particular has shown a lot of people that. That you can. There are ways of forging a career, of carving a path that you maybe never thought about before, but you can do it. Other people have done it. There's no reason why you can't.

Exactly. Okay, so I wanted to ask. This is one of your taglines. It's moving from a life of lethargy to a life that's lit. Yeah. Okay, so in a nutshell, can you define a life of lethargy? Did I say that right? I don't know why that sounds weird. And then. And then, what does lit mean for you?

Yeah, sure, no problem. So I think when you asked me before about whether I knew the language and we're talking about limiting beliefs and some of those things, I didn't. So I guess towards my latter years of law, I just felt that. I mean, sometimes you feel like you're a little bit lazy because you just can't get yourself motivated to kind of get something done. But what I found out is that it's just lethargy. I mean, lethargy is just defined as, I guess, a lack of enthusiasm for the thing that's in front of you. And that definitely sort of defines how a lot of people feel in the jobs that they're in. It's not that they can't do it. It's not that they're lazy. It's not that they're unproductive. You know, it's just that they. They don't have that enthusiasm, that drive. It doesn't light them up. That's what it is, a life that's lit. Again, it means different things to two different people. And that's the beauty of it. What it means, it's living life on your terms. I guess the way. The best way for me to describe it is that I like to look at feelings. So what feeling do you want to feel? And then try and store and bottle up that feeling. So a great feeling for me is being in my car, window down, sun shining, playing hip hop really loud. And there's this feeling of freedom, of being untathered, of being on top of the world. All of these emotions are within me. That's. To me, that feeling is what living a life that's lit is. However you get that feeling for you, some people get that feeling from their job, from their family, from their friends, from sort of doing outdoor pursuits, whatever it is. But for me, it's however you get that feeling, that's the lit life. So it's moving you from that life of lethargy, the life that you think you should want, doing the things that you think you should do, to a life that's lit, which is a life where you just feel alive, you feel lit up, you feel aligned, you feel that you're working towards something again, something bigger than yourself. It doesn't mean that every day is awesome and amazing, but it means that that's. That's kind of what you're waking up to live each day.

Mm. I love that. Yes, I love that word too. I don't usually say it that often, but I like that. That's like your tagline.

Yeah. And again, go back to hip hop as well. So, yeah, who I am and what I believe in. So, yeah. Yeah, I love it.

That's awesome. Thank you so much for being here. I love your story, I love your energy and I'm so glad that we got that we're connected.

No, thank you. Yeah, it's great to connect. And I think that, yeah, when. When I received your connection request and immediately saw the name of the podcast, I was like, this podcast, this is, this is. This is everything that I'm about. So, yeah, I'm really glad that we got to do this. And yeah, looking forward to kind of staying connected.

And thank you so much for listening to this episode. We hope you enjoyed it. Brought to you by Be Seen Productions. Go ahead and hit subscribe if you have not already, hit that button. Wherever you're listening to this podcast and reviews really make a big difference. So if you are feeling generous and you want to leave a five star rating or a review, please do. This is so hugely appreciated. And if you want to elevate your online presence for your business through engaging video content and digital marketing, check out beautiful Scene productions dot com. We'd love to hear from you. So thanks again for being here. See you in the next episode. And until then, keep carving your own path.