Fiona Callanan - BigLaw, Balance & Boundaries

So when I look. So, for example, I think a lot of it depends on the person as well. I think the person has to be able to set their own boundaries and show the people surrounding them what they're willing to do and not to do. For example, when I look back on my previous job, I think actually I probably just wasn't clear enough about my boundaries and I didn't set them clearly enough. And that's on me. I don't think that's on the organisation and I think that that's almost the problem. And especially from the lawyer mindset, I think people get very but you want to please and you're used to doing a good job and you're used to getting the A's at school and people telling you how great you are and you get so worried that if you step up and set a boundary that that might damage you in the eyes of the organization you're working.

Welcome to the Yoga Den. Are you a stressed out cog in the corporate wheel? Do you find yourself asking, what am I doing and why am I doing it? Then the Yoga Den is the place for you. I'm your host, Ryan Spence, AKA the big law dropout, writer, yoga teacher and your guide on the path to well being through yoga. Yoga helped me find my purpose, change my mindset and my life. And in this podcast I'll share how to live a life of intention and reaction. Each week I'll be talking to a variety of guests and covering pearls of wisdom to help you figure out where you're heading to, where you really want to go. I'll. I won't find your purpose for you, but I'll help you plan the route. So sit back and grab a drink. I've been expecting you. Hello and welcome to episode 13 of the Yoga Dent podcast. Before we get into the show, I'd like to ask you a question. If you weren't doing what you're doing now, what would you do? It's a question I pondered a lot when I was in Big Law. And although I had some fantastical ideas, you know, things that sounded amazing, I was always pulled back by the practicalities and the logic, which meant that all that I could see is I was always destined to be a Big Law lawyer. I was trapped in that mental cell of self limitation that you've probably heard me talk about many times before. So for those of you who are in a similar position to what I was and can relate to what I just said, I want to help you get some inspiration, get some ideas about things that you could do instead what other people have done. You heard from some of the guests on this show, but I also wanted to point you to other areas where you could see the opportunities that are available to you. So I've created a guide, the Corporate SKP Starter Kit. It's available as a free download from my website@ryan spenceyoga.com yogaden and in the guide, I list a handful of resources that I found useful when I was exploring what I could do next, and some of those resources I still use now. Okay, let's get to the show. This week's guest, Fiona Kaminan, has a fantastic story. Originally from the uk, Fiona has spent the majority of her working life in Asia, first teaching in Japan, then as a junior lawyer in Thailand. And it was during her Thailand stint that Fiona unfortunately got caught up in the traumatic 2004 tsunami, an event that eventually led to her losing a leg. Determined not to let this define her or derail her burgeoning legal career, Fiona carved out a successful career for herself as a big law lawyer, first in London and then relocating to Hong Kong, where she currently resides. But like many, the stresses of the job created issues for her as she found yoga. And yoga not only made her rethink her career choice, but her entire life. As you'll hear her talk more about in this episode, Fiona has now managed to find a legal job that works for her that she enjoys and is compatible with her relatively new life as a yoga teacher in Hong Kong. With a new website on the horizon and no doubt more events coming in the new year, exciting times lie ahead for Fiona. I enjoyed our conversation and I think anyone that's been listening to the show each week and thinking, yeah, I want balance, but I don't want to quit my job. I actually quite like it. This is the episode for you, Fiona shows how you can still practice the law or be in the corporate world if that's what makes you tick, but also follow your passions and live in alignment with your values. So, as always, you know the drill. Go ahead, grab a drink and let's do this. Fiona, welcome back to the Yagedan. How are you doing?

Yeah, good, thank you.

Good, Excellent for the listeners out there. We tried to do last week and then the tech gods were not on air side. So we're back here again and hopefully we're going to get through this and recreate some of the gold that we got from the. From the unrecorded interview.

So, yeah, yeah, people that I'm not technology and I think Last week was the proof of it.

You say that, but it's not. It's not all down to you. Sometimes these things just happen. So I've spoken to two other podcasters, and I think anyone who hasn't had a podcast where they've had an episode where the audio didn't record, you're probably not doing it right. So, hey, we had that one and here we are again. So let the listeners know where you're calling from and what you can see if anything out the window today.

Sure. So I'm in Hong Kong and it's very sunny morning with lovely blue sky. Unfortunately, I can't see that because I've got bamboo scaffolding and tarpaulin covering the window in my living room because the builders chose Covid, when we were all working at home to literally hack the walls off the side of the building. That's what the notice. And then they're resurfacing the roof, which has meant drilling the tiles off the roof. So I've learned equanimity.

Yes. Finding peace amongst the chaos and the noise, I think. Yeah, that's what our yoga practice teaches us. So, yeah, now we have to practice what we preach, I guess. We were living across construction for a while, so I definitely feel your pain on that one. So great to have you here. For those who don't know, I'm your. You're a lawyer. You've been a lawyer for some time, but you've sort of changed what you were doing. I want to kick off with a quote from. From one of your blog that I read, which said, maybe addicted to the feeling I get when somebody contacts me to say that they think there may be a problem. And I can sense that it means that something big might be starting up. And what I like about the quote is that that sounds to me like the true epitome of someone who loves being a law. And I can fix it. So was law always in your plan? Was it something that you wanted to do from a very, very early age? How did you. How did you come to be a lawyer?

So the easy answer is I did a history degree. What do you do with a history degree? Either a history teacher or a lawyer. But the. Actually the. I guess so. There's lots of lawyers in my family, which I think is probably a normal kind of story for somebody who. Who decides to become a lawyer. So my parents are Irish and I spent a lot of summers when I was a kid staying with my cousins in Dublin. And it's a really. Just actually a really inspirational family. So their dad, you know, I think, you know, was from quite a normal kind of background, worked really hard, got into boarding school in Ireland in the 50s, did really well, became a rugby player, you know, did his law degree, got a double first, went set his own law firm up and managed to change quite a few laws in Ireland and was just quite an inspirational kind of person. And it was. So he was my kind of uncle. So he's. Yeah, my uncle and then my aunt, his wife. He met my aunt. They had six kids. At 42, she decided that she, she wanted to go back to work because in the times that she met Uncle Paddy, you had to give your job up when you got married. So 42, she went back, became a barrist, became a really well known kind of family barrister in Ireland. And the two of them were just really, I guess, really quite formative for my childhood because I'd spend every summer and Easter there. Like I'd stay in the house, like me and their kids would play and my cousins were still really close. And needless to say, like, I think something like three out of the six kids then went. Actually, no, four out of six. Six kids then went on and became lawyers themselves. And I think that probably they had quite a big influence on me and always helped me to believe that I'd be able to, to do it really. So I finished my history degree, kind of had it in my head, probably had a little bit of I'm not good enough still there for some reason, and then went off to Japan for a year to do the jet program after I finished my degree. And then during that started to apply for training contracts and, you know, law conversion courses just to give it a go. And then it just kind of, it grew from there, really.

Wow. So, yeah, a lot to unpack there. I mean. Yeah. Being in that, in that environment with, with two people who, as you say, were quite formidable and so very accomplished. Yeah, it would be hard not to have that. That sort of have an effect on you.

Yeah. And actually, and I think it's been a great career, like funnily enough, a few probably a few years ago now, we had dinner out with some friends and I think three of us, we met through our babies. Three of us were lawyers, one wasn't. And quite late on in the night, we' Fair amount of wine. And the one that wasn't a lawyer turned around and asked all of us lawyers, like. And because people complain about their jobs and you know, lawyers love complaining about their jobs and how hard it is and all the rest of it. And she said, just out of interest, like, would, you know, are you happy? Are you all happy that you chose the career that you chose? And all three of us looked at each other and we were like, actually, like, yes. Like, there's hard things about it, but I think, you know, it's stable. It does keep. It's interesting and it is, but there's lots of really interesting things about it, I think. I think for me, as long as I've been able to manage it and manage the stress and the balance, it's been a great career. And it still surprises me. I have ups and downs with it and times that I think it's boring and, you know, the culture bothers me and all the rest of it. But at the moment I'm on an up. But, you know, I think that the ups, you know, and the general stability of it, especially at a time, the kind of time that we're in at the moment, it does make it a good career.

Yeah, there's definitely, definitely ups and downs. And yeah, I think that you can. It's not the job. It's not the job itself necessarily, that's the problem. And I know a lot of lawyers who, if they were just doing the law, would really enjoy it or if they were just doing a particular deal, would really enjoy it. I think it's a lot of the peripheral stuff which actually are quite important to what you're doing, particularly if you're, if you're in big law, if you're in a big law firm, like any big organization, there's, there's a lot where you just don't have control and there's a lot that you have to do which detracts from the thing that, that appealed to you in the first place, particularly as you get more senior and. Yeah, so. And I think we'll, we'll talk because obviously you, you've been in, in the big law firms and then you're in house now. And I think we'll sort of see that as we talk a bit more about your, your journey between two. Japan. Just for, I guess, for those who don't know, the JET program is you get to go and teach English in Japan for you, which is. Sounds amazing. It's something that I looked into doing with a different company. Unfortunately, it didn't work out partly because that company went bust, but the jet program was a pretty. It was very popular. How did you find Japan? And is that. I know you spent a lot of time in Asia since then. Is that what kind of kicks off your love.

So I think I always wanted to like, I love the idea of like going traveling summers when I was at uni, but to be honest, I've never been that much of a self starter or maybe I am, I don't know, maybe I should. But anyway, you know, instead I chose the, like work in a pub or in John Lewis and go out and get drunk in Manchester a lot at the weekends and go to, I don't know, places with bouncy dance floors and headbangs instead. And so I had it kind of in my head that I didn't want to do the traveling thing. When I finished uni, I did in third year a course in Japanese history and just really enjoyed it. And it happened to coincide with the time that the jet program was being kind of advertised, I guess. And just for anyone who doesn't know, that's kind of a collaboration between the English government and the Japanese government. And the idea was it was set up in the 1980s when Japan didn't really have very many foreigners and the Japanese government wanted to send foreigners into like local schools, like normal schools to just, I guess internationalize Japanese people. And it sounded interesting and it was importantly paid. So I didn't need to worry about having a year, you know, traveling and not having any money. So I applied for it, got the job, was very open about where I went. You got to choose kind of, you know, do you want to be in a city, do you want to be in a countryside? Where do you want? And I just really wanted to go. So, you know, you have to go to London. I think it's to the Japanese embassy to have this interview. And the question was asked. I was like, I'm happy to go anywhere. The more rural the better, like give me the countryside. And they gave me. So I ended up in like a junior high school, which is, I think it's probably for 13 to 15 year olds in the middle of the countryside in rural northeast Japan. I was the only foreigner in the village and there were like 30,000 people there. And this was in 2000 when, you know, I mean, there were emails, but the Internet didn't really work. Nobody had. I didn't have a computer anyway and I was absolutely terrified. So like, you know, it was all very Asia in the sense that they wanted to give a good impression for the program. So they flew their business class the furthest I'd ever flown at that stage for like four hours. So like, you know, get on the plane and actually my friend from Uni was doing it with me. So she was there for the first few days and we had the business last night. I had no idea what that involved. So I didn't even know you could get to the lounge. Like, I just sat there like, and cried for the whole journey. Like we passed, I don't know, like, I remember passing Moscow and being like, what am I doing? And like landed in Tokyo. And then they put you up in a nice hotel and you got a few days of like orientation, which was really good. And I mean, I mean the first night you had people taking you out for dinner. We went to this. It was a Chinese restaurant when I looked back, but I didn't even realize that. And they gave me some chopsticks to eat with. And I mean, obviously like fried rice is actually very hard to eat eat with chopsticks right where I was Japanese. And I remember just being like, oh my God, I can't even like pick the rice up. I'm gonna start. What am I doing? Like, couldn't see Japanese and had the couple of days in the hotel. And then basically the man who was looking after me from the board of my local board of education drove in his car from like Ibaraki, where I was, where I was to pick me up from the hotel in Tokyo, and then just drove me away. And I remember just being driven. I cried like the whole way. It was like four hours journey in the car. I was like, what have I done? Like, I'm terrified. I didn't even know how to call. They basically like dumped me in the apartments, then took me to the supermarket to buy food. I couldn't, I didn't know what any of the food was, couldn't read the labels. It was like completely terrifying. But you know, obviously there were other foreigners who lived around me. I found them, made some amazing friends, met people from all over the world, including lots of amazing Japanese people. And it just opened my eyes to like, it was so much really. And it was definitely a trigger for wanting to come back to Asia after I finished my law stuff.

Well, that's a great story. I mean, for someone who would initially said that they're not a self start. I mean, that's a pretty big deal to kind of get on a plane to. Not even Tokyo, rural Japan. I mean, I've been to Tokyo and Tokyo is like, you say the whole thing about not being able to read labels on the food, that kind of stuff. I mean that's, that's in Tokyo. So in rural Japan.

We learned quickly. So I Mean, I say after a month I was like functional, like I could speak conversation. I said, speak enough to be able to just about get by. And so it's amazing how, how you pick things up quickly when you need to.

Bring yourself into a situation. I think that's, that's the thing that, and this translates through to life generally, and we may come to this later, is throwing yourself into the unknown. I mean, you, you figure it out, right? You, you're in the situation and it helps you to grow because you could have been. I hate this. And I'm going to go back and never had that experience, but actually living through that experience, as sort of difficult as it was at the start, I mean, it sounds like by the end, I mean, you loved it and you.

Had an amazing time, met fantastic friends. We're still friends. It was 2000. We were planning on going to Tokyo for our 20 year anniversary of the jet program this year, but obviously it hasn't happened and we're still Hutch and yeah, I mean it was brilliant. Loved it. Really loved it. Yeah. But funnily enough, haven't been back that much since I met my husband after I got back from Japan. Ex husband now. And I think I talked about it so much to him when we first met because I literally just got back to England that he refused to go with me pretty much our whole relationship. He's like, if I go with you, then you're gonna do my head in because all you're gonna do is.

I met my, my then girlfriend, now wife just when I got back from Singapore back in 2010. I'd been there for six months and I think she got sick of me saying, I want to go back and live in Singapore. So. But we ended up here. You know, it shows that the power of a vision and manifestation. So, yeah, you've had a great time here, but yeah, so Japan's obviously sort of kickstarted your love of Asia. You went back to the uk, you trained. Did you qualify as a lawyer before you came back to Asia or you came out as a trainee?

Well, no. So I was. So I came back, did the law conversion course in Chester, then I moved to London to do the LPC. Started at Watson Farley in 2003. And then what attracted me about Watson Farley was that they guaranteed all trainees a seat abroad. And I really had the kind of living abroad bug by that stage and in the, the bigger firms it was, I think it's much harder to get to go away as a trainee. And so they Sent me to Bangkok in September 2004. Again, it was amazing that they put you up in. I don't know if they still do it but it was a service department in the Conrad and it was just, you know, it was living the life really. It was fantastic. And then. So that was when I was a trainee. It was also where I got into like litigation was the first kind of big, I guess arbitration that I'd kind of worked on and been an important part of and that kind of piqued my interest I guess into qualifying into disputes. So yeah, so they came back to London, qualified in September 2005 and then stayed in London until. For another year and a half.

Cool. And yeah, so it sounds like. I mean Bangkok was amazing. I mean we all know I came to Singapore as a trainee and I think when you're around other trainees you've got a big group of effectively ready made friends or working hard or playing hard away from home. It's quite an amazing experience and it does it just change you. I mean there's lots of experiences that you have which you wouldn't have otherwise had if you'd stay back in the uk. But in your case, your time in Thailand, it was life changing but for different reasons I guess quite traumatic reasons. What, what happened during your time then, during your time there?

So we were there over Christmas my like boyfriend came to visit me and we booked to go to Krabby on holiday for the Christmas period where we got hit unfortunately by the 2004 tsunami. So it was pretty dramatic, you know, not the planned kind of end to the trip and I ended up having to have my leg amputated. So that was the, the ending of the, of the TR contract. Well, the training, the Bangkok bit anyway. Yeah. But I mean I was extremely lucky to have survived and that's kind of, I think what I took from it really.

And just briefly, can you sort of explain what that was like? I mean, I think for a lot of us we obviously aware of what happened there. There've been films made of that and I've been there post tsunami and kind of seen some of that, some of the devastation that took place. But what was it like? Like being there? Because obviously like, like for a lot of us you go on a holiday and particularly at Christmas you're having a nice relaxed time. You just don't envisage anything like that happening.

Well, no. So yeah, so we were staying in kind of Onang and we'd had quite a relaxed kind of Christmas day just sitting by the Pool. We hadn't. I don't think we'd arrived there till the 23rd of December. And then we decided to do a sea kayak kind of day trip. And there are lots of the kind of limestone casts and the islands that are kind of out off the coast to Krabby. So we. The day trip was to one of those islands. And the idea was that we would get a long tailboat out there and then sea kayak around the kind of lagoons and then I think have a bit of blood, sit on the beach for a bit, come back. So we got onto the boat maybe at 9am it took an hour to get there and we would. I mean, the whole thing was. Well, I mean, it might sound a bit. Sometimes I feel like I sound a bit deluded, talking about how lucky I was, to be honest. And I sometimes think that people look at me and think, like, how. How is she? But, I mean, it was. It was luck. Like, it was. I mean. So the boat stopped on the beach. There would have been maybe 2 meters of beach and then it was sheer cliff behind us. So if we'd been five minutes later, there would have been no hope. Got out, the boat kind of walked across the beach and then there was some mangroves, like a normal beach with some mangrove forests kind of behind. And at that stage just heard people shouting, run. And I looked and there was a big wave. It was all very, like. It felt very undramatic. I don't have many memories of being particularly afraid. Like, it was the water and I knew I could swim and I wasn't really that worried. And so I started to run, you know, my right flip flop fell off and I put it back on again. And then the wave hit and it was just. I mean, at that stage you kind of realized. I realized how serious it was. Like, it was like. I think there'd been description of it being like in a washing machine. And it was. It was just you just tumbling along the ground and had like, what was happening? And then the next thing I remember is I must have lost consciousness. But I guess it can't have been that long because I could breathe and all the rest of it. But, I mean, I kind of came to and I was like, up to my chest in just mangrove trees and roots. So I was a little bit bemused. Wasn't really sure what happened. I had all this. Man, it was just kind of buried in the mangroves and the water had gone. I didn't know where that had gone. So it was just. Yeah, I mean, just I guess a little bit shocked. So started trying to get myself out, couldn't see anyone else around me for a few minutes. And then a lady kind of started to walk past, like in a bikini. Everyone was on bikinis. We were at the beach and I asked her if she could help to pull me out and she started and then she just kept saying, I've got to go, I've lost my 18 month old daughter. And so she kind of ran off or walked off. And then my boyfriend found me and he was okay, he kind of walked and stuff and he pulled me out and I couldn't feel anything at that stage. I guess it's a shock. But when he pulled me out, we had to look at my leg and it was basically snapped in two. So like the tibia, the shin bone, and it was a completely open wound. So all I remember is kind of looking down and seeing the shin bone and see it, seeing the muscles and just think, you know, just kind of knowing that that was like, that was it really. There wasn't very much hope for the leg. And so, I mean, after that, still couldn't feel any pain. Luckily we found a few other people who were willing to help. Like most people, because it was quite mountainous, that people worried there was going to be a second wave kind of ran up the mountain to save themselves. But there were a couple of people who stayed and they carried me to this kind of hut. I mean, it was one of those uninhabited, like small islands that people just go to for day trips. There's nothing there really. There was like a concrete hut on the beach. They took me to this hut where they were taking all the other bass injured people. And then our tour guide was looking for people from the tour and he found us and we were the last people. And then again, another massive stroke of luck. Like the opposite side of the island hadn't been hit by the tsunami. And there was a speedboat full of Americans on the opposite side of the island. So they came around to our side and they asked, they were asking like, does anyone need help? Does anyone need to get back to the mainland? And I was like the least badly injured of the badly injured people basically in the hut. So they put me into a sea kayak and then the tour guide swam out with me, swam the sea, you know, whatever, like rode the sea kayak out to the speedboat. Simon swam behind it and kind of held onto the back of the kayak. And then they got me into the speedboats. And then actually pretty quickly they got Me straight back to the mainland. And I'm not sure that anyone else in the hut was in a fit enough state to even make it to the speedboat and make it back. And it later transpired that I think I was the only person that survived out of that group of people, which was pretty intense when I found out. So anyway, they took me back to the mainland and it was really, it was fast after the tsunami happened because I think people were obviously, they were all dotted around on smaller islands, so I think it was hard for them to get to clinics and to get back. So there were ambulances on the beach, things weren't really overrun. And they rushed me into the hospital, I think put me under general anaesthetic and tried to bolt the leg back together with all those big metal contraptions that you see my hospital bed. And then, and then I guess the full impact of the tsunami kind of hit the hospital. So I kind of got forgotten. And they were dealing with everything else that was going on over the next few days, which was pretty crazy from what I remember. So that was kind of what happened on the day and then again, more luck kind of happened. So my dad was on holiday in Vietnam at the time. Simon's parents were on holiday in Chiang Mai and my work colleagues knew exactly where they were staying because we'd been having so many late nights at work in Bangkok that I guess you just know everything about your colleagues at that stage, don't you? And then, and then, and then my, obviously my work colleagues knew where I was, so they kept trying to call my mobile, couldn't get in contact. I think everyone did realize that something must have happened and, and then they all flew down from where they, you know, my dad from Vietnam, Simon's parents from Chiang Mai, my work colleagues from Bangkok, and then, and then went around the hospitals to find us. That took them a few days and they did find us. And then I'm sure that there must have been some. If I was being asked about this in my anti corruption role currently I'd be telling them that they shouldn't do it. But a little bit of bribery that went on because they found a private ambulance for me, took me down to a private hospital in Hat Yai and then eventually flew me back to Bangkok. So I think, and I think by the time I got back to Bangkok I had like quite severe septicemia. I don't really remember very much about it, to be honest. Like all I remember is just begging for morphine constantly. But I think I was probably on the edge of, like, overdosing, you know, basically, I think I was constantly on the edge of overdosing because I kept having to, like, not give it to me. And I think I kept passing out. And then we got to Bangkok. The surgeon basically did a test of my leg, and I think ascertained that there wasn't, you know, there was. There wasn't gonna be enough blood supply for it to ever heal. And I think that it was probably too infected anyway, so that. So they amputated it. And that was on New Year's Eve. Wow. Yeah. So it was a pretty intense story, I guess. But. But at the same time, I mean, I definitely, like, escaped by the skin of my teeth and was. And just was so lucky. And I know I was, because after that, I really wanted to do something, you know, to raise money or do something to help people who hadn't been as lucky as I had. And I. And my first. The first thing I thought of was trying to find other people who'd lost limbs in the tsunami, you know, who. You know, who were in Thailand or wherever. And I couldn't find. I couldn't find any other people that. That happened to and who had survived it. And I think it was because clearly, because if they were that badly injured, then the septicemia kind of was the thing that they couldn't survive. So that was quite. It was definitely an awakening, as you would say in yoga.

Yeah. And I mean, I know you said at the start of the story that when you say you're lucky, you think that sometimes people is like, how can you say that in the situation you're in? But having heard the story, there just seemed to be so many points in time that if that particular thing hadn't happened, it could have been so much worse. I mean, and you can call it lurk or Faye or whatever you want to call it, but where you were when it hit, being stuck in the mangroves, you know, I mean, having your. Your boyfriend at the time be able to sort of, like, get you to the boat and swim, being able. Get back to Bangkok, having your colleagues, I mean, in your sort of parents and in laws around, and being able to kind of play all of those sort of steps to kind of get you to where you were. So losing the leg is obviously quite traumatic, but as you said, it could have been a lot worse. It sounds like it was for a lot of people.

Yeah.

One of the. I guess one of the questions that I have is that when people experience these traumatic events, sometimes it's a Trigger to evaluate your life to. To sort of make. Like you said, sometimes it looks as an awakening. Was that the case for you at the time, or was it a case of whatever's happened? I just want to live my life the same as I've been doing. Carry on.

So probably I would. I mean, I would say probably in the way I acted. More of the latter. By the time. I mean, when it happened, I was like, a year into my training contract. I was, you know. You know, I'd worked really hard to get to where I was, and I really wanted to qualify and be a lawyer. That was the thing that I'd been thinking about for. I mean, how long by then? I don't know. I mean, probably my whole life, really, if I think about it. And so my main priority at that stage was just to do that. So I. They put me back into hospital in London for maybe a month. I went back home on crutches for a couple of weeks, and then I went straight back to work as fast as I could. I'm not sure how effective I was at work, but I was. You know, that. That was the. That was the thing that kept me going, really. I mean, it took a long time to. To get back on my feet, and my femur was broken, too, so I couldn't even get a prosthetic leg for six months. So I literally had to hop around on everywhere I went. But I just wanted to qualify, and I wanted to do litigation, and that was what I focused on. So, I mean, the leg, I mean, obviously was a major inconvenience. That's an understatement. But, like, it was an obstacle. But for me, it was an obstacle to try and, like, overcome, you know, until I kind of qualified and got myself onto the career path that I wanted to. So that was very much the way I saw it. I mean, at the same time, like, I definitely had. I mean, I. You know, the knowledge of what had happened to me and all the things that it kind of brought up did affect me a lot. And there was this need to do something. I was very conflicted about it at the time, actually, because. And it's still something that I get. I feel a bit conflicted about with the yoga. Like, I felt like I wanted to do something meaningful and help people. After it happened, I knew that being a corporate lawyer wasn't, you know, let's be realistic, like, probably not that meaningful in the grand scheme of things. Sometimes it can be, you know, let's just, I don't know, leave it there. But I wanted to. So I decided, I mean, what would help me and what might help other people was to do some charity kind of bike rides. So I did a bike ride a couple of years after the tsunami happened from Ho Chi Minh in Vietnam to Angkor Wat in Cambodia and raised like £30,000 for a charity that helped train prosthetists in Asia. That was the closest I could get. I couldn't find any actual people who had lost limbs to help, so. So I did that. And then a few years later I worked in NGOs helping asylum seekers get refugee status and then also in Singapore helping the domestic helpers when they had issues with their employers. So like, I think I was a bit conflicted. In short, to your question, sorry, after it happened in that. And it's probably part of my personality even now. Part of me really wants to go for it on the corporate side and wear the nice suits and get paid the nice money and go to nice hotels and be challenged intellectually and surround myself with people who were kind of quite type A and ambitious. But then the other half knew that there was going to be something missing from that and did try its best to, to bring out the more, I guess, service orientated side of me. And then as far as the leg went, I just kind of ignored that and tried to beat it into submission would be the way that I would describe my attitude to it.

Yeah, just power through. Yeah. I think that conflict is real. Not everyone goes through it, but I know a lot of people have because once, whatever it is that triggers that feeling that I want to do something meaningful. And yeah, as, as lawyers, particularly as lawyers in big law and we get paid well and you can do a lot of charity stuff, you can raise a lot of money, but to go further than that, to kind of really feel that what you're doing kind of has a purpose, it does kind of put you into, into that conflict. And it's kind of how do you, how do you balance that? Can you stay in that lane and balance the two or do you kind of have to leave one behind and go for the other? It's something that each person has to answer for themselves and looking inside yourself, figuring out, actually finding out what are your values, what is important to you. And if you do that work, then you can make a decision. But for a lot of people, they don't do the work either because they don't know or they don't know how to, or they just don't have the time. They just feel they don't have the time because they're stuck in what they do doing.

And I think for lawyers as well, it was interesting. One of my teachers here did, did this course on like women and anger basically over the last lockdown that we had. It was four week long. And her like, her thing was she get people to read out bits of books and there was, there was one paragraph she got me to read out and it was generally about like it's about kind of having an emotion, recognizing that it's emotion and not attaching to it it and then like responding to it appropriately. And the sentence that stuck, stuck in my mind was. And in some professions, you know that you'll often, you'll find people that really don't understand their emotions at all. For example, lawyers and I laughed. But I think to a large extent that's pretty accurate in the sense that I think that we're taught very much to live from our heads and our logic and our analysis and the hard concrete things that we can see in front of us. But actually to really understand your emotions, you've got to be able to understand your heart a little bit as well. But it feels a bit, I mean, I even feel uncomfortable saying it, you know, as a lawyer, say those words. So to then go the further step and recognise what. That you do have this, even that you do have this internal conflict. I think it's probably quite difficult for a lot of lawyers who probably brought up, you know, to ignore that.

It's the, like you say, it's logic, isn't it? So you're taught to. You take the emotion out of it. You're there to represent your client. So your client might be emotional, but you're there to remove the emotion and be logical and to still deal with the fact that's the training and that's great and it's great for the job. But the problem, the problem is, or the problem can be is that the longer you do it, the more that becomes who you are. So it then permeates into your, your life, your personal life and then you do sort of look at everything with, with that logical view. Taking the emotionality. I used to drive my, my wife nuts. She kind of wanted something that was emotional. Step back, let's look through. So it, it does do that to you. So what's in. So what's interesting now? And you say there's still probably still a little bit of that in you, but you obviously are now a yoga teacher, you've been practicing and you're now a yoga teacher, which again Seems in conflict. The sort of, like the whole logic along with the sort of more sort of philosophical and stuff. How did you. What brought you to yoga? From being. Being a lawyer in. In sort of big law, doing the deals, being that sort of Taipei personality. What kind of brought you to this. This thing that seems a little bit more. It's not competitive, it's not ego driven. It's nothing that you would kind of expect someone in that position to sort.

Of do well in Hong Kong, like, you know, whoever does best. Handstand. No, sorry, I'm joking, I'm joking kind of. But so I say Si and I. So we moved, went back to London, moved to Hong Kong for a couple of years and then Singapore. And I was. It was while I was in Singapore, so I was pretty active. Like, I did all the cycling trips and then carried on doing spin classes in the gym. And I go hiking quite a lot and enjoyed all of that. And in my local gym, like in fitness first in Singapore, there was. There was this body balance class that I started to go to probably, I don't know, maybe a year, two years before we left Singapore. And I just kind of did it once a week. Kind of really enjoyed it. Don't think I even really. I think it was yoga. Looking back, don't think. Think I even realized that it was yoga. But I'd always come out kind of feeling a bit calmer and happier. And I had a few friends who started doing a few yoga classes. So I went along when I was pregnant with my second baby to a prenatal yoga class and enjoyed it. So I kind of had it in my head. And it's interesting because the thing that I always find odd about yoga is it feels so. It feels so logical to me. Like you're, like, drawn to things and it's very hard to describe. Um, but I guess it's because it, you know, it's. It's. It's the universe telling you that you need to go in that direction. Um, and I was drawn to it. So we moved to Hong Kong. And I moved to Hong Kong for a big job. It was for the head of litigation at bank of America for Asia. I was seven months pregnant at the time. Um, and I hadn't told them that I was pregnant when I was interviewing for the job because I was worried that they might not give it to me. And if I did tell them. So obviously when I wrapped up seven months pregnant and then had to immediately go on maternity leave, it was all a little bit stressful and I felt the pressure. I mean, I look back now and I shouldn't have, but there we go, that's the way life is. And so we arrived. I went on my maternity leave and met this other girl who had a baby at the same time as me. And she, we got chatting about yoga and she did it too. And she recommended the yoga class to me in Pure in Hong Kong, in the Central. In Central. So one day, I mean, my daughter was maybe four or five weeks old, it's July, it was like 2:30 in the afternoon. I rocked her to like my first proper yoga class. Like I see that as my first real yoga class. And I never get it. Like the traffic was bad, sweltering hot. I was in, I was late. So I ran into the yoga room. I had my handbag still with me. I think I even might have left my shoes on. I had to go back and take them off. Like I'm dying when I even tell this story now. And you know, it turned out slapped my bag down, did what I could do and couldn't do anything. And my phone rang halfway through the class and I just remember the teacher just came up to me and you know, the only comment she kind of made apart from don't bring your phone in next time or your bag was, you know, you're sweating, that's good. And I just kind of felt included but, you know, seen but not. But not picked out, I guess, which was a nice way to feel really. And I finished the class and felt better. And then when I went back to work, I started going to her class like every Tuesday morning. And just, you know, it always felt like my week had started properly after, after that class, like Monday's Monday you've got the kind of blur of the weekend. And then, and then from Tuesday morning onwards, like it kind of set me up for the week really. So I carried on doing that. Didn't have any expectation I'd be able to actually do anything. And it's interesting because I guess because of the leg, I just never really compared myself to like anybody else in any of the classes I was going to. And I mean, I think in Hong Kong that's probably quite important because everybody here do everything straight away without even having to try. Like, I mean, the people are just so flexible. And I think often yoga is seen as a competitive sport sometimes here. So it was helpful for me that I wasn't comparing myself or competing with anybody. And then maybe after a year or so, completely by surprise, like there's lots of steps going up and down to the yoga studio that I mostly practice in. And there was one day I was walking up steps and realized that I was doing it foot over foot without even thinking about it. And that was something I genuinely had never thought I'd be able to do. So like by that stage it was more than 10 years, 1112 years since the tsunami had happened and I really thought I'd like peak like I'd done. I was, I'd been quite active and I thought that you know, my body was as good as it ever was going to get, my leg was as good as it was going to get, nothing was going to change. And so this was a extremely big thing for me especially because Hong Kong's basically all stairs. So that happened and then I mean other little things happen like I'd be in the changing room, there'd be no stuff seats and I suddenly one day I realized I was able to put my trousers on just standing on my prosthetic leg and rather than having to sit on the bench for it, which again, I mean it's a small thing but it's actually a very big thing for like day to day life.

Yeah.

So once that started to happen I went a bit more often and just you know, got, got completely addicted to it if I'm honest. The, yeah, the poses started to come. The things that I thought were impossible suddenly started to look possible physically. I went on yoga retreats, met people who were thinking in a similar way which slammed my kind of world open away from just the quite narrow kind of mum, lawyer kind of social circle that I'd had before that and it really made me, you know, I guess it was the thing that triggered me to really start thinking about, about you know, my life and the ways that I was living it and, and the ways that were possibly open to me if I was to, to open myself up a little bit more to what else that could be out there.

And that's, yeah, that's interesting because obviously yoga is about self inquiry and I think that when we're, when we're in some of these roles and I had this conversation with some of the guests and I know it applied to me as well is that sometimes you're, you kind of lose your identity. Your identity becomes subsumed in, in the role, it's in the, in the sort of status in the lifestyle in being a lawyer at X firm, I mean whether it's a partner or whatever. So actually finding out who you are, you actually don't know?

No.

And I think yoga Helps with doing that, as you said, when you sort of start to sort of realize there are all these other facets to you when you start sort of looking internally. And another quote that I take from you is you had said that my yoga practice had shown me these glimpses of what might be possible in my life if I was just willing to put the effort in. And it is those small things throughout, just by being consistent, like you said about suddenly being able to walk up the steps, you weren't focused on being able to walk up the steps. You just accepted that you probably couldn't do it. But by being consistent in your practice, these small things just happen without really thinking about it.

Yeah. And that's the way in life as well, isn't it? I don't know. Like, it's always, always when things start to flow, it's when you're not trying to make them flow.

Yeah, you can, you can try and force things to happen, and it's just. It's just all too, too difficult. And it's like getting on the mat. You can try and force yourself and be determined to do a particular pose, but it's probably unlikely to happen because your mind isn't in the right place. Yeah, but, yeah, when, when you just sort of submit and allow, allow your sort of mind to just in your breath, to just kind of allow it to flow through, you sometimes do things like, wow, how did that happen? And I definitely had lots of, lots of those moments. And they translate off the mat, as you said, into life and kind of help you deal with, with those situations. But you become more resilient, become more disciplined. What made you decide to teach, to do your teacher training? Obviously a lot. But then to sort of go and teach is another big step, another thing, Right?

Yeah. So I got really addicted to yoga. Like, I think I basically definitely got an addictive personality. Everyone great shape before. So I was doing it like in the morning at lunchtime. Sometimes I do an evening class as well. Insane. And I was obviously balanced. I'd do it in the morning, at lunchtime, wouldn't do the evening class. I'd go home for the children. But then I was obviously balancing the children and the job and all the rest of it. And I think, think so. I basically, like, there's all the talk in yoga about you have your, like this whatever. Like you got to have a little bit of hardship to make you think about how you're gonna change your life. I mean, that, that kind of happened to me probably after three years of doing yoga. Of really getting into it properly. And it. It's hard to describe, but I just started to feel stuck in every aspect of my life. So I had this job that, on the surface, well, it was a good job. I like my colleagues. I still enjoyed that job. I don't regret doing it. But it was rigid, you know, it was rigid. It was an American investment bank. It's hard going unless you're kind of on it and replying to emails immediately all the time and always available for calls. You're failing, basically. And. And I struggled with that. And then, you know, I was in a. You know, the relationship with my husband wasn't going. I think we just wanted different things out of life. And the more I got into the yoga, the more I started to realize. I started to realize that I think I became probably less conciliatory and less willing to just go along with everything that he wanted. And it was that, that, that started to, you know, cause issues in the relationship. I mean, I guess I learned a lot more about my own kind of boundaries and being able to take those. And so, I mean, really, I think I kind of reached this stage where I felt like I couldn't carry on with lots of different bits of my life. And the yoga was. It was just this. It was. I can't describe it. It was almost a contrast. Like, I'd go to yoga and then there would be this sense of, like, expansion, and then I. And then I would live my normal life. And it was the opposite. Like, it was like I was coming up against all of these brick walls and I didn't know how to get out of them. And so I did start to make changes in my life. And this is all before I did the teacher training. And then, and then as I start to make the changes, I didn't really understand, like, like what was happening. I didn't have the, the philosophy or the, the framework for yoga. I didn't understand any of the, I guess, that academics behind it. And I also didn't have my own yoga practice. So I started to feel very dependent on, like, the yoga teachers and the classes I was going to. And I didn't like that. Like, I wanted to take a bit of charge. And it has made a massive difference to me in my life. And I did. I felt compelled to some extent to try and help people see, you know, how it could help them in their lives. Around the same time came the TED Talk. So I had a friend who was on a committee for a TED Women event, and it was the first Year, they were running it in Hong Kong. They were looking for speakers and she asked me if I wanted to speak. So I said that I would. And I did it on my leg and the rehab that I had. And that, I think, made me think a little bit more about the leg and, and what that had meant for me in my life. So it all kind of came around the same time. I think it was all just, I guess, probably all meant to be. All meant to come around the same time. It was quite a hard time for me, but that was what made me decide to do the training anyway. So all of those things happened. Yoga had definitely been a, I guess, like a path for me, had led me there in lots of ways, way. And. And I just felt the need to know about it. This, like, burning desire to know, really. And so that was what made me decide to be a yoga teacher. And it was interesting, even that process, because I had my job and it takes four weeks, so. So I had probably like a year of like, I really want to do this. And I was going through all the intensives they were doing for the other teacher trainings and, you know, and I just, I wanted to do it so much, but the thought of even having the conversation with my boss about, can I take four weeks off to do a yoga teacher training was like, absolutely, like, I mean, I could not imagine what she was going to say to me if I asked. But eventually, like, the desire to do it became too much. I was like, I'm just going to ask her. And I asked her and she said no. She almost like jumped off her chair and it was, you know, like, well, basically you're completely bonkers, Fiona, what's happened to you, who used to be this normal person, like, what are you doing? And so I was like, I don't really know what to do. And then the teacher training was coming up. It was the end of 2018, and I was going to Patrick's training. So I went to his class one morning and I was like, I just really wanted to do the training. So I went up to him after the class and I was like, I really want to do your training, you know, will you accept me? And he was like, yes. And I was like. And my boss, like, I've got to ask my boss. And, you know, I'm just worried about what she's going to say and I don't know how I'm going to get over the boss problem, problem. And he said to me, well, have you applied for the training? And I was like, no. And he said, just apply for the training and then see what happens. And I was like, okay. So I went back there and I applied for the training, and then I told her that. And then I think that afternoon I told her that I applied for training, and then he worked something out, and we worked out a way for me to do it while I still worked. So it's one of those yoga moments of like, just do it, and it will. And it will happen. Stop agonizing. So it's interesting. Yeah, that came about.

Yeah. No, it's a fascinating story, and I think the initial response from your boss is a funny one, because there is this expectation that once you're in these worlds, why would you ever leave? I mean, you follow, right? You go for the promotions, you angle for the deals. You want to do the biggest deals and kind of have the biggest reputation and do all the talks and go to all the conferences. So anybody who decides that they don't want to do that can be looked at. Well, there's two schools of thought for some people. They look at that as, wow, you're really inspiring. I really want to do that, but I don't think that I could. And then the others who just think, yeah, you're crazy, or you can't hack it, or you. You just don't have the. You just don't have the sort of stamina to sort of see this whole thing through.

Yeah.

And the fact is that, yeah, I mean, look, people aren't. People are complex beings, and people want to do a good job. They don't necessarily want to have the whole life taking over by that job. And that's the difference. And once you become more aware of yourself through yoga, those going back to the conflict we talked about before, I think those conflicts become more prominent and becomes harder and harder to kind of silence that void. You've kind of got to deal with. You've got to confront it.

Right, Exactly. I think that's what the yoga does, makes you confront.

Yeah, yeah, you definitely confront it. And you mentioned your. Your TED Talk, which I'll put a link to in the show notes. And I mean, I. I love the talk, but I love the title more Living Life to the Fullest, because I think that that's. That's kind of what trying to get people to think about in terms of these podcasts. And just generally that's. That's kind of what people want to do. You only get. Get the one life. And as you, you know, having been through, through your experience and sort of still being Here, here and being able to sort of tell that, that moving story about it. You now, I guess you now sort of recognize that yeah, things that maybe were important before aren't that important now is not as big a deal. There are other, bigger things which, which are worth focusing on and which are important.

Definitely.

Cool. So it sounds like obviously yoga brought a huge transformation in you. Like, like it's done to, to many of us, particularly those of us who've gone through the training. Do you have a. What's your future for yoga? Because at the moment you're, you obviously you're still a lawyer and it seems that you, you enjoy, you're now found a legal job that you enjoy that sort of works for you and you're sort of practicing and teaching alongside that. Do you feel that the two can work well in, in harmony actually?

Yeah, well, yeah, I do and I can. I'm. I'm really happy with my life at the moment actually. So. So my husband and I did separate two years ago. That's going really well. I can't believe I'm even saying this but I mean we didn't have it. It wasn't a terrible separation. We still got on each other quite well and we get on with each other well. Like the kids have a week with me, a week with him, we're having Christmas together. It's been as peaceful as it could possibly be and I think we're both a lot happier as a result. I changed jobs so I'm working at a management consultancy now. It's a lot more flexible. The people are great, the working style is very much like you do your work, you can be wherever you want to, we trust you. There's a lot more autonomy. They've been completely fine with me doing my yoga teaching on the side. So I teach in a studio just once a week and then I teach my legal colleagues every lunch, once a week at lunchtime. And then I sometimes teach them other friends. I'm really enjoying doing that. I did the beginning of a 300 hour training training at the beginning of this year in San Francisco with Jason Crandall. Loved it. And then I've just recently got into. I did a mentorship with my teacher this year. I can feel my. It's interesting actually because I mean it's a profession, right? Yoga teaching. And I remember this feeling from being, going from being a trainee and to being a junior lawyer and suddenly starting to get it and like, and this. And it's suddenly starting to happen like it's so funny, like So I started. Yeah. So anyway, I feel like I'm starting to get to become consciously competent, consciously incompetent, the teaching, which is really exciting. And so, yeah, so that's all good. I'm setting up. So this year I've spent setting up my own yoga website as well, and I've written some blogs. And I'm going to start to try and I'm going to keep on going with that and we'll see where that goes and then. Yeah, and then we'll see what happens. Really. I mean, the thing that, I mean, I think with the yoga teaching is a question, isn't it? Like, what do we. What do you even want out of that? So. And I think the lawyer personality, there's some elements of you wanting to conquer the world, being a yoga teacher, but that's like, clearly not the point. So I'm having to, like, moderate that in me. But then at the same time, I mean, people seem to. People say that they find what happened to me kind of inspirational, and I guess it is. And I have to just kind of accept that. And if I can, you know, help people to deal with their own stuff by teaching them and kind of my writing, you know, and leading them in some way, then it would be, you know, a great honor to kind of do that. So I do want to continue with it and see where it goes. But having said that, a lot of the time I feel like I'm just some crazy woman, like, doing my handstands at home on my own. I've just started to do so in the past few months. I met this interesting. So this another lawyer who's in London who's also a yoga teacher. And she worked with me in the company that I work for now. And I went over to the London office last year and she took me to a yoga class. And I really enjoyed it. I discovered that the teacher is doing. He does like, he's doing Zoom classes now. So I've been doing his Zoom classes, and I do sometimes like, you know, they're like, they're Tuesday nights and Saturday nights, and I try and do like one a week if I can. I'm kind of there in my living room, like in Hong Kong, like doing. Doing his class, and he's there on Zoom. And I'm like, this just feels bonkers. And I got really into it. It's like a different style of yoga to the yoga that I teach that we do in Hong Kong, you know, and. But at the same time, I'm like, well, I don't know, I spend a lot of time wondering whether I'm completely and utterly like crazy, but I'm enjoying it, so I'm just kind of going with it. I think that's the biggest thing that you learn, I think, through the yoga, isn't it? Like you just have to, I mean, I think there's a lot to be said for letting yourself, you know, keep on with the searching and exploring and following your heart and seeing and seeing where it goes. Really. It's just yoga. Nothing that bad is going to happen to you if you keep going on with it.

It's all a, it's all a process. I mean, you, you get to the mat for the first time and you're in. And it's probably the physical that brings you there. If you can keep going and get consistent again, you see the little shifts that we talked about before, and then as that gets deeper on the physical side, you then get, get more into the, the other aspects and looking at the other limbs and start finding out about yourself. So it's all, it's all a process and you can't, you can't just jump into it. You have to let the journey take you where it's taking you and be open and accepting to it.

Yeah.

And then that's when you can really find out about yourself. What I interesting when you're talking about sort of the balance of the harmony of the role and, and yoga autonomy is a key point because I think that once you feel you have control of yourself, of your life, suddenly a lot of things become a lot easier. And I think that in, in big law, in big corporate organizations, sometimes you don't necessarily feel that even as you get more senior, you still don't always feel that you have that autonomy because there's already always somebody else or some other thing that's putting you away, whether it's somebody wants to call a particular time and you, you've got a yoga class you want to go to to, but you have to cancel that to take the call or. You mean. Or you're going to go on a yoga retreat for a long weekend over a holiday and then a deal comes in and you'll stop working for the weekend. Yeah, you don't have that. So I think if you have the autonomy, then, yeah, that does, then allow you to kind of have these other aspects of your life, continue alongside your job.

I do think that that's something that. So I think that goes two ways. So when I look. So, for example, I think a lot of it depends on the person as well. I think the person has to be able to set their own boundaries and show the people surrounding them what they're willing to do and not to do. For example, when I look back on my previous job, I think actually I probably just wasn't clear enough about my boundaries and I didn't set them clearly enough. And that's on me. I don't think that's on the organization and I think that that's almost a problem. And especially from the lawyer mindset, I think people get very. But you want to plead and you're used to doing a good job and you're used to getting the A's at school and people telling you how great you are and you get so worried that if you step up and set a boundary that. That might damage you in the eyes of the organisation you're working for. But actually, like, in my experience, I think often the opposite happens. So, I mean, certainly with the job I'm doing now, like, I've been very clear about my boundaries from the beginning and I'll block my calendar out if I'm doing something and I'll be unapologetic about. About it. And obviously if something urgent happens, then I, you know, I'll change things. But generally I stick to what I need to do, what I know I need to do in order to kind of stay relatively sane and live my life the way it needs to be lived. And, and they, and they've been very respectful of it. And, and I think that actually, I mean, I think nowadays, like, organizations are becoming more educated about that stuff and people do understand. And actually, if you just tell people, like, I'm not, you know, no, I'm not doing this. The call now, you know, I can do it at this time. If you're important enough, then they'll, they'll change things for you. If you're not, you're not. And maybe it takes a bit longer, you know, and you're not going to be getting the applause quite as fast, but actually you'll be in a better position in the long run because of it, because you're not going to burn out and you'll be able to sustain. And it's a marathon, it's not like a sprint. And they'll be in a better position because you'll be more loyal to them and you'll keep going with what you're doing. And that's surely all that companies want, really. They don't want people kind of moving because they're burned out and can't handle it constantly. And I think the other thing is that I've learned in this job there are so many ways that you can grow even if you're not. I mean, the structure where I am is very flat. Like, I probably don't. I mean, you know, I'm not doing it for the money. Like, I'm not going to get paid the big bucks, but I'm comfortable. Um, and. And I'm probably not doing it for the glory either, because I don't think that, that, you know, I don't. I'm not going to be like the. The general council or the, you know, the head honcho probably ever, because it's US based. But. But I've learned there are so many other ways to like, grow myself. So I. I'm the first person doing my job in Asia, so I've had to build my own kind of business. It's meant that aside from the hard legal skills, I've learned, like relationship building skills. Like I came from an investment bank. Like, things happened and I just used to dictate people what to do. That did not go down where I work now. So I've had to learn how to basically, you know, get clients, really, which has been an amazing experience. And then there's lots of other just side skills that can, that can be used just in life. I've had a chance to do in my current role, and I've had to go out and find them myself and work out where my interests lie and then focus on them and engage with people about it and develop things that way. And that's been fascinating. And I think that for the lawyers out there who might be frustrated with their kind of roles and with the balance that they don't feel that they have in their lives, I think the message is also, it should be on you. So it goes back to being intentional that we were talking about before and having a vision, and this is how it can feed into what you're doing in your job.

All good stuff. I want to play devil's advocate for a moment here. So I think boundaries are definitely key. And there's a quote, and I can't remember the top of my head who said it, and I'm probably going to butcher it, but it's that you. You show people how to treat you. So if you place those boundaries in place, then people know, okay, this is where, this is where their endpoint is. I mean, whatever I do, they're not going to go past that. But I guess the question that I have is, is obviously you're, you're in house now, but also you're relatively senior. Do you think it would have been different when you were sort of a junior to mid level lawyer and particularly one in one of the big law firms when you're, you know, when you've got, when you've got sort of the, the irate partner sort of bearing down on you or, or the senior associate saying this, this needs to go out now and no, you can't go after this a class. What are you thinking? Do you, I mean, are you not committed to your, to your job job? How do you then stand your ground?

So I would have said that's fine, I won't do the yoga class and I'll stay here. And then got really frustrated. That's definitely what I would have done as a junior lawyer. But I mean looking at it now, I mean that's tricky, isn't it? I mean it is, yeah. I mean it is. I mean, and I mean laws are like, it's a profession and it does require hard work, you know, and those years, the junior years anyway, they're the formative years, like they're the years where you really learn. So I think to an extent you have to just accept that for a few years your life might be a little bit out of your control. But keep in mind that it's a marathon and that things do get better and as time goes by you will have more control, you know, so that's not a great answer, but I think that's the reality of things. And I think, and I think that we can change things by having more of these kind of conversations, which is what we're doing to help the organizations understand better. But I think the other thing is, I think there is an element of control like I look at. So actually somebody who I worked with in my previous job really inspired me on that front. So she was quite a much more junior lawyer than I was. And she came from a law firm firm, a really good one. And she was a seconde and I was astounded by her. Like she arrived on the first day, announced to me when all her holidays were going to be, you know, it was very clear that she was leaving at like 6pm every day. But she'd get all her work done. Like if she had to work on a weekend then she did. If she had to do anything that was needed to be done, she did. But she also completely lived her own life, like set her own boundaries very clearly and people didn't cross them and it worked well because she did a good job and nobody really was complaining about her. And I'm sure, sure, absolutely sure that she did the same thing at the law firm that she worked for. And actually, like, ironically, she's like 10 years younger than me, but I've learned an awful lot about how to operate in a work context from her because I think that the way that she did it was really good. And I think it's just about, I think a lot of it. If I look at her like she had complete confidence in herself as a lawyer and her abilities and the fact that she was able to do the job well. And um. Yeah. And from that stems the ability to be firm with the organization she was working for. So again, down to you, really, doesn't it?

I think, yeah, confidence is a big part of it because I think you can get, you can get so wrapped up in whether it's the politics or I need to do X if I'm going to kind of progress, I really want to get promoted, et cetera, et cetera, that any confidence that you have kind of, kind of gets. Gets squashed down. But if you have confidence in your ability, but also intention as to where you want to go. So if you know, you want to be partner, then you figure out these are the steps need to get there and you figure out the partners who you probably have the life that you would like to have, and you try and mold your, your route around that them as opposed to just sort of stumbling along and just feeling that I have to keep doing as much work as possible, do everything that's thrown at me without kind of having intentionality about where it's, where it's leading you. So confidence and intention, I think can allow you to then have place those boundaries and not fear that you're going to be held back. Because if you're that confident, then it's a case of, well, if you don't like it here, I can go elsewhere. Do you mean I'm good at what I do? People recognize I'm good at what I do do. It's just that I have these boundaries and I want to have them respected. So I'll go where they will be respected.

Exactly that. You have to suck up like nothing worth doing is easy to do, you know. So yeah, yeah. I mean, there will be the late nights and there'll be the times when your plans end up having to be cancelled. But if, you know, if you feel like you've intentionally made that decision and this is something that. Then I think that. I think that's the key. Right.

And that's the thing is. Yeah, the key is intentional because for a lot of us, and I know for me there wasn't necessarily any intentionality in it. He just felt that you had to do it. Why did you feel he had to do it? Because that was the job and you had this lifestyle and the status and everything was wrapped up in being a lawyer at a particular firm. So therefore he continue. But yeah, I mean, look, big law in particular, it attracts people who are ambitious. People aren't afraid of working hard. And I think that I say this a lot, but it's important to kind of break down that misconception that it's not. People don't want to work hard. People just kind of want to feel that what they do doing has some purpose to them, whatever that means. Then they have some control and autonomy over. Over their own life and they can kind of like mold. Mold their path to a certain degree, all of those things. I think there's very, very few people just who want to kind of sit back and shirk or do you. I mean, the whole sort of thing about people working from home that they won't be working. I don't think that's the case at all. I think there's more people who just get on and do the work. And like you said, if you can do the work and finish at six and go out and actually have a life, then why not be able to do that? Why do you need to sort of sit around till 10, 11 o' clock at night?

I mean, I mean, for me now I work for a US Firm. So like I do, I finish at six and I see my kids and I put them to bed and have a bit of dinner and then I generally have. And I have calls from like 8 till 10 every night, but then I stop at 10 and I'm not, you know, but. And that's fine. Like I genuinely, like, I don't mind. I mean, I can have a 6am call. Fine by me. Again, go off and do my things after the 6aM Call. And so it's working out how around your life that's. Well, exactly.

And again, you're doing that intentionally. It's from a place of intention, you know, so you know that, okay, man, I might have these calls at 8 till 10 at night, but I can go off and do my yoga class in the day. I mean, and that's kind of where I kind of claw that time back and get that balance.

And then learning not to ruminate on It, So it's not this big specter that's kind of hanging over your head, which happens a lot. Right. And you spend the whole time stressed about your 8pm call and it's only whatever, like in the morning. And I think that's the other thing, thing that we as lawyers do quite a lot.

You do kind of like dwell on those things and the hardness of your life. Yeah, but no, that's, that's been sort of really. I think, as I say, it's good to kind of tease these things out. And I mean, always interesting going back and forth with people, particularly people who are in law or in these organizations, because I don't think a lot of these things are sort of verbalized more publicly. They're, they're the things that we complain about sort of over drinks or, or you walk into a colleague's office and when someone says shut the door, you know that something's going to go down. And you kind of have these backwards, but, but sort of having them out sort of in this public forum.

I think, I mean, and it's this constant refrain from people, I mean, lots of my kind of lawyer friends that you hear. And it's the constant refrain of I'm working so hard and this and that and the office gossip and that he said this and she, she said that. And a lot of it's not helpful. Yeah, I don't know.

It's not, it's not when you, I mean, I look back at the, I mean the sort of conversations that I had with colleagues and all the rest of it and you know, yeah, you do all complain, as you said before, complain about Agiles, complain about issues in the office or whatever it may be, but it doesn't serve you. It doesn't actually get you anywhere. You know, I mean, you kind of might feel that little pang of yeah, this person relates and they get me for that moment. But you're still in the same place you were before. You haven't moved forward. So yeah, it's kind of, yes, have that, but then look to, okay, but what do I want? What changes do I do? I want to be made and how do I take steps towards making them? And then that's when you can sort of see this sort of positive element and sort of feel some control flow back into your, into your life.

Totally. And I think so. I mean, I think the world's changed so much, especially in the past few years, and I think people will generally be open to it. I mean, I think the other thing is like, yeah, you get the odd kind of dinosaur. But I think. I mean, most people these days, I think, are pretty switched on to the issues that everybody's facing. And. And then. So then really it's having the guts to have the conversations about it, which can be hard.

Yeah, it can be. To put the markers down, but. But yeah, hopefully, hopefully this show goes some way towards helping people do that and kind of get into the right mindset in the right mind frame. And, I mean, lots of the guests have all had sort of great things to say in that space through their own experience. So, yeah, I'm hoping that that's what people can take away. As we sort of start cruising towards the end of the interview, let's start with some of the regular questions that I like to. To ask the guests. So, morning routine. Do you have one? And what it is? What is it? What does it do for you?

My morning routine is like, I get out of bed and I go and do some exercise, and that's it. I know I should be journaling and, like, meditating. I don't.

Works. Whatever works.

No, actually, since I had a great morning routine, actually since. Especially since coronavirus, because, I mean, before, I pretty much get up and go to yoga every morning. Oh, I'd walk my kids as well. I'd walk my kids to the school bus and then go to yoga. But. But now when all the gyms closed, I started walking up the peak in the mornings with my friend. And we started in kind of January, and it was just like, I quite like doing it. Like, it's pretty efficient. It's, like, steep, and then so you get kind of a good workout. It's sunny, the weather's nice. And then after a few. Few weeks, she was like, let's do a boot camp at the top. And I said, I don't want to do a boot camp. I don't. You know, I just walked at the peak. Like, why would I want to do a boot camp on top of that? But we started doing a boot camp, and. And it's become, like, this really amazing, like, morning thing that we do now. And we don't do it all the time. We do it twice, three times a week. But it's like, it's great. And like, we, you know, I might persuade some poor victim who hasn't done it with us before to, like, come up, and then she might get some other people to come up. So we've ended up like, this kind of like, random group of people, like, with this peak walking thing, which has been really Lovely. And then we go for a coffee, and then I walk down my way and she walks down her way and, you know, and even that's shown the kind of progress. So originally it is very steep. I started walking up with, like, two walking sticks, like hiking poles, and then I went down to one because I think I just forgot to bring one with me one day. And there was one day I forgot to bring the other pole, and now I'm doing it with no poles. It's great. And. And she decided at the beginning of this year that she wants to lose 10 kilos, and she has. She's lost it. And she's done it gradually just by doing this stuff with me. So that's my favorite morning routine at the moment.

Oh, cool. And you find. You find that the. That exercise, those morning endorphins kind of set you up for the day.

Yeah, it's amazing. And I mean, the view. I mean, it's Hong Kong, right? The views are always fantastic. You see that, like, every morning. You know, this is couple that we always. They're always coming down the hill as we're going up the hill. We always say hi to them and we've kind of become friends. And there's this kind of old guy, he does the run and he says morning to everybody. And he's lovely. He's always so friendly. And. Yeah, and then we've got the coffee lady. We're always kind of banging on our door at quarter to eight, like, begging. Open, early gap in the market in Hong Kong.

Yeah, no, Hong Kong's beautiful. I do remember when I used to go on business a couple of times a year and kind of getting up and going for a run first thing in the morning in Hong Kong was. Yeah. So there's some beautiful sites. Definitely. I do miss that. So I guess. Next question. Looking back at yourself. So let's say yourself, when you were in Hong Kong, in your big law firm, sort of working really hard, really ambitious, if you were talking to that person now, what would you say to them? Is there any particular word of advice you would say or tell them what to sort of look out for or what they should do?

Don't resign. Keep going. That would be my advice.

And keep going. Keep going. Is that because it was difficult for you to get another role afterwards, or.

Was it just before you resign?

Always have a job before you resign. Okay. No, that's. That's sound advice. I can. I can definitely, definitely hear that. What are you most grateful for at the moment?

At the moment, I'm Grateful for like everything. At the moment, I don't know. I'm having like a real. Maybe it's at the end of 2020, like we've survived the year, but like, I don't know, honestly, like, at the moment, I mean, we're now in the fourth wave of coronavirus in Hong Kong, which means everything is just shut down again. So I should in theory be like in a terrible mood. Like, I don't know, like I wake up the same. Like I'm just gonna sound like I'm just, I don't know, come from like the pages of like Alice in Wonderland or something and the sky is like blue. Like I don't get up and do the walks and I Like, I'm grateful for like, my friendships. I go to yoga. Like, I'm grateful for my teachers. And then all the people who I like, practice with around me, I'm grateful for them. And all the stuff that I've learned this year, like my children, like, I mean, they make me happy like, like all the time. So. Grateful for them. Yeah, just generally for being alive. That sounds just. I can't believe I just said that.

No, but what, what I, what I like about that is that this thing about gratitude and like you, I mean, you already come quite, quite a high level, but as you kind of kept talking about gratitude and the things that you're grateful for, you kind of kept rising up and up and up and up. And it just shows the. How gratitude can really, really. By reframing things which. Which may seem bad or may seem negative and looking for those small pockets of, of gratitude, it can really sort of change your whole day, change your whole mood. And like that just that little segment there was a. A perfect, perfect example of that. So, yeah.

Think that you're just this complete enough. So like, I don't know, I'm not that person. They're always just so happy and I'm not.

Yeah. And isn't really about being always happy. But it's kind of what yoga teaches you.

Right.

It's like you can acknowledge that these are. That. That things have happened or they're not as they should be or you want them to be, but once you can accept and sort of disassociate yourself and just, just adapt and pick out those pockets of gratitude. Because if you just stay staying in the, in the negativity for prolonged periods of time, it goes back to thinking it doesn't serve you. It doesn't actually get you anywhere. And there's nothing wrong with negativity. We all experience it is kind of what you do with it and how long you stay there for and how you adapt or choose to adapt to the situation. No, that's fine. I mean, I'm not going to. Going to dismiss that. I think it's a great answer. Grateful for being alive. So cool. And let's now just go through some quick fire questions just to end the interview on a slightly lighter note. So is there a particular quotes or words of wisdom that you live by or that you like or that you refer to?

Keep going. Like the Agavad Gita. Keep going.

Yeah, I think that's a great one. Yeah. Always want to stop when things get hard, but yeah, if you can push through, there can be great things on the other side.

Yeah.

What's the most impactful book you've read in the last 12 months?

The last 12 months? I've read a lot of good books in the past 12 months. I've actually. The one I've. The one I've just read recently is probably the one that comes to mind. I'm not sure whether it's been the most impactful. It's called maybe you should talk to somebody. So. Okay. Very. It was a bit. Have you seen this? Have you read this is gonna hurt the nhs? Yes.

Yeah.

Great therapy. So it's like. So it's this American woman who's a therapist and she's like kind of my age, like early 40s, has a son and. And so basically her boyfriend breaks up with her and she ends up going to therapy. So it's her story of, like, her being a therapist to her clients and then her and her relationship with her therapist. And it's absolutely hilarious. Like, it's absolutely hilarious, but it's sad. So that's probably. Yeah, that's the most recent book I've read. I'm not sure whether it's most impactful, but it's been great. Another one I read earlier this year, which I loved, was called Lost Connections by Johann Hari. That's exactly. He did a TED Talk, and it was about depression and then medication, like the drugs that people are on for depression and how actually the antidepressants don't work. And his theory is that the reason why is because people. So the reason why there's so much depression in the world is that people don't know how to connect with other people anymore. And he did loads of studies and surveys and measures and how if people change their behavior, then their mental state kind of changed. It's fascinating and very easy to read.

Yeah. And fascinating. More so in the wake of this year. Because if there's a year when people need a connection more than ever, it's this year. The things we took for granted, just being able to kind of go and have a drink with somebody or knock on someone's door suddenly taken away. So, yeah, I know a lot of people have found that tough through the various ways of lockdowns throughout the world. So now I'll check that one out. I'll add a link in the show notes. Favorite yoga pose and why Headstand.

Love headstands. A, I use my leg. Well, I have to use it slightly to get up and get down, but it's pretty irrelevant. And I love hanging out in a headstand. Like, it's that Iyenga's kind of quote about effortless. Effortless. I mean, I feel it in that pose kind of more than any other pose that I've ever done. Just gives me this feeling of complete calm, but also complete freedom. Which is. Yeah, that's what yoga's about, right?

Yeah, exactly. And yeah, there's always a bit of sort of fear or trepidation about headstand or handstand. And I think even during my. My teacher training, I try them, but I. I just wasn't that bothered about it. And then weirdly, I did a. I did a workshop, a week workshop actually, with. With actually my guest on episode four, Sarah Sarah and the Last Class. It was like, okay, we'll guide you into. Into headstand. And I was like, oh, this feels amazing. And now I can't stop practicing everything that. How it feels. Yeah, I definitely relates. It's. Yeah, yeah, you're upside down. It might seem scary, but actually, yeah, yeah, it's. It's the opposite. There is that just calmness, that serenity.

So totally. Yeah, yeah. I love all the inversions.

Excellent. Do you prefer to practice yoga with music or without music?

Well, I mean, actually I'm in a conflict about that at the moment. So like. So when I first got into yoga, all the classes I went to have music and I love the music. Then I got really into yoga and my teachers in Hong Kong now don't teach with music. They're very kind of like Ionga, very detailed and they kind of snub music. I would say it's quite snobby yoga. But my new, like the new practice I've been doing, rocket yoga, the teacher teaches with music and I love it. Like, he does like a slow kind of four beat vinyasa. So like, it's very measured and the music really adds to it. And so I started to practice a bit more often with music. Now it's conflicts. I think it depends. I don't know.

Yeah, yeah, there's a. There's a. There's a lot of back and forth about whether music should be played in yoga class and whether if it is, it just becomes a fitness class or whatever. So, yeah, I mean, look, everyone's got. Everyone's got the view. Like you. I used to practice with music at the studio. Then I went to a studio that didn't play music. Then I did my teacher training and obviously no music throughout that. And I got used to just practicing without. And I quite like just focusing on. On the breath. But when I teach one of my classes, I know the students like to kind of have that. That sort of flow. Vinyasa.

Flow the teaching. And I know I've actually started to teach the rocket practice a little bit. And I've been using the music and it's really helped me to keep my pace and to slow down, to not talk all the time, because I find if I don't have music, I'm, like, talking, talking, talking. And I know it's too much. I just can't stop myself. So I think the music can be really useful and really helpful. And it's. Yeah, I think it. Yeah. And I mean, let's face it, like, most people who want to do yoga once a week or twice a week or whatever, they're just coming because they want to, like, move. Yeah. You have to be. You know, I think there's probably disadvantages to being too heavy.

Yeah. And as teachers, we. I mean, it's not about us. We're there to hold space. As much as we might want to really share everything and get into all the philosophy and all that, as you said, people are coming once, once a week and. And they just want to move. And I see with my students as well, then you help. You read the class and you. You sort of hold the space accordingly. You don't, you know, not try and throw everything, you know, in there to try and. Wow.

It's not about you.

It's not about. Yeah, it's not about us. Yeah. Which takes some time to sort of get used to, but. Yeah, no, that's definitely the case. Yeah. And finally, dream yoga retreat. Destination.

Difficult one. I feel like I haven't been able to dream about any destination. Oh, God, I don't know. Somewhere in South America. Because I haven't been there.

Okay, cool. Yeah.

There's a Easter island that feels like, exotic.

Cool. All right. See anything comes up there? Yeah. In the next few years, once things finally, finally open back up.

Yeah.

So we are coming to the end of today's interview, which thankfully, fingers crossed, it's gone without a hitch this time. So before we go, do you have anything that's coming up sooner in the future that you kind of want to talk about or you want to share with the listeners?

So I guess my website is going to launch on the 16th of December. So, yeah, I don't have. I think it's probably just going to be Fiona Kalanana yoga.com that will be the address. So if anyone's interested in, I guess, coming to my classes or reading my stuff, please feel free to have a look at it. And then, you know, any law firms out there who want people to teach corporate classes, let me know.

Excellent. And where can people find you? I know you're. You're on Instagram.

Yeah. And then that's it really. And it'll be my website.

Excellent. So, yeah, we'll put your, your Instagram and the link to your TED Talk in the show notes. And also when the, when the website's live, you send that over to us. We'll add that as well.

Thank you so much.

So thank you for, for joining me. I think it's fascinating hearing, hearing your story, both obviously about. About. About the tsunami, which, which I think everyone will kind of. Of take something away from, but also just generally about law and about yoga and the transformation that. That it made and, and effectively just completely. Yeah. Changed your life, which I think it has done for so many. So we appreciate you. You sharing with us today. So thank you very much.

Thank you. Thank you so much for asking me. And I think what you're doing is great.

Thank you. Yeah, hopefully, hopefully it will help a lot of people sort of figure out where they want to go and what they want to do and not just stumble through in the, in the bubble. Not sort of looking up and coming out for her and, and deciding where to go. Yeah, and.

Yeah, and. And then not stopping and, and regretting it.

I mean. Yeah.

And realizing there are other ways to, to work through it.

Indeed, there are other ways. A great point to end on. Thank you, Fiona. And I will. Yep. Speak to again soon.

All right, thank you so much.

Fiona paints a good picture there of finding balance between the day job and the thing that you love. What do you think? Did you set boundaries and find balance where you are, or are you ready for a clean break just to escape and get out and do something new. Why don't you let me know? Drop me a line on Instagram Ryan smokes yoga or send me a an email ryanspokesyoga.com I want to thank those of you who sent messages emails saying that you like the show, what resonates with you. But can I ask you to also please leave a review on Apple Podcast. It really helped to get the show out to others who could benefit from what we're talking about here, the conversations that are being had. But now, as always, it's time to say eat plants, give thanks, do yoga.