Frieda Levycky - The Importance of Finding Balance

Welcome to the Yoga Den. Are you a stressed out cog in the corporate wheel? Do you find yourself asking, what am I doing and why am I doing it? Then the Yoga Den is the place for you. I'm your host, Ryan Spence, AKA the Big Law dropout, writer, yoga teacher, and your guide on the path to well being through yoga. Yoga helped me find my purpose, change my mindset and my life. And in this podcast, I'll share how to live a life of intention, knowing reaction. Each week I'll be talking to a variety of guests, covering pearls of wisdom to help you figure out where you're heading to where you really want to go. I won't find your purpose for you, but I'll help you plan the route. So sit back and grab a drink. I've been expecting you. Hello and welcome to episode six of the Yoga Den podcast. This week's guest is an ex Big law lawyer turned life coach and legal consultant. Frieda Levitsky has worked as general counsel for a large international corporation and also as a partner in the Big Law law firm. Frieda is well attuned to the demands of a career in high finance and big law. The demands of her career and her own alpha female personality began to seriously affect her health, leading Frida to take time out to figure out life and to find better balance. When I first had the idea for this podcast and started making a list of the guests to invite on the show, Frida was up there in the top 10. And by the end of this interview, I think you'll see why. Frida's openness and willingness to share her experience, no matter how vulnerable, is really refreshing. And I think you're going to get a lot out of this interview. Mental health is a big theme that we discuss on the show, along with Frieda's yoga journey, the shortcomings of most corporate wellness programs, and the importance of finding balance in life. This is the first remote interview we've done here at the Yoga Den and as you can imagine, there were some tech issues along the way. The usual ones, the up and down of WI fi across continents. But also what we didn't account for was the complete shutdown of WI fi over in Cape Town, where Frida now lives. Fortunately, we managed to get the system back up and running and continue with the interview. And hopefully we've captured all of the gold and nuggets that Frida has dropped in this interview for you all. So for now, grab a drink, sit back and let's do this. Okay, Frida, welcome virtually to the Yoga den. How you doing today?

I am very well, thank you. Thank you very much for having me. This is quite exciting over in Cape Town.

Well, actually we just preempted my next question because you're actually our first remote guest. So yeah, it's new for us all here. So I was going to ask you where you're calling from and also what can you see out of your window right now?

As I have just said, I am calling from very sunny Cape Town, South Africa, very English accent, but I live down here. What can I see out my window? I can see my laundry blowing in.

There'd be some like amazing view of some mountain.

It's my garden, which is a good thing.

Okay. A garden's good. That's, that's fine. Excellent. And you've been, how long have you been out in Cape Town?

Gosh, it has, it's just over three years now, officially. Three. Well, not officially, unofficially, three years. I came down here in September 2017.

Okay. And you had quite a, you've had quite an international career. You want to just name just a few of the places where you've been prior to, to Cape Town, living wise. Yeah.

Oh gosh, yeah. So I started. You can hear the, you can hear the South African yar coming. I've been, I was obviously I'm from England originally, Liverpool and I went to Hong Kong, then to Singapore, which is where we met, then over to Dubai, then through to Geneva and then my family lived in France for 10 years and then I personally came down to Cape Towns. It has been quite international.

Yeah, I think just thinking of the guests we've had on today, everyone's kind of had a real international feel. I mean from Egypt to Singapore, London, Senegal. Yeah, people have lived all over. So maybe by this time next year would have had someone from almost everywhere in the world. But you know, we'll see. A little bit ambitious, but you gotta have gone.

I'd love to know when you've met someone from Mauritania, because that's not on my list.

I'd actually know someone who works in and out of Mauritania, but I haven't met anyone from there yet. You used to live in Singapore and that's where we met, which we, I think when we had a chat a few weeks ago, it was about 10 years ago now, which seems a little bit crazy. And yeah, I was a, I was a humble trainee solicitor and you were already a high flying lawyer. What, what brought you to law? Why did you become a lawyer and what was your journey from Sort of starting out to, to when we met back in Singapore.

Gosh, I've not been asked that question for a long time. What brought me to law? I always wanted to be a teacher. That's what I wanted to be originally. Um, and, and I liked, I did some work experience in law when I was about 15, 16 and then I realized that money versus like what I just enjoyed doing was going to be a bit of a toss up for the first, first part of my career. And I chose to do, I chose to go into law. I did enjoy it, the human rights aspect of it. You know, as most young lawyers go in, they want to change the world and to make things a better place. And when I arrived at Norton Roads and was put into the corporate finance department, I quite honestly had absolutely no idea what I was doing indeed. And I learned my way. Yeah, I worked my way up through there and learned the ropes as I went. What I did know that I always wanted was an international career and a job that would take me to multiple places around the world.

Okay. Yeah, I think similar to me, I, I, I hadn't planned to. Well, I didn't even know what capital markets was when I was a looking at a legal, legal career. And then I kind of stumbled on this world where yeah, you could work internationally and, and get paid money and. No, it sucks you in like that, doesn't it? It's kind of really appealing as a, as a fresh eyed graduate.

Yeah, absolutely. And, and that ability to travel and you know, you look at other people's lifestyles that are ahead of you and I remember particularly when we were living in Asia and just watching people hop off to Thailand for the weekend. I remember telling my mom about this, she's just like, it's a lifestyle that I do not understand.

Yeah, it's very much a bubble, isn't it? I think when you're in it, all your mates are in it, everyone's earning the same, everyone's doing the same and it's kind of, you're kind of a little bit detached from, from reality.

Reality. Yeah, yeah, very much.

So. By any outward measure, I mean you were obviously successful, you, you trained, you qualified at a, a top firm, you were into working overseas, you working on some of the big deals. But as I say, sometimes looks can be deceiving. So what we were seeing from the outside, how were you, how are you feeling inside? Did you, were you sort of enjoying the deals, enjoying the pressure, enjoying what you had? Did you see yourself as successful or.

Did you not, you know, in my 20s I did, I felt really, I felt really successful in many respects. It was, I was, I was working through the ranks quite, quite quickly. I loved being involved in all the deals from a work perspective, purely work perspective. It was super exciting. I got, you know, it was billion dollar deals that were going on and that was just brain taxing. I was doing all those late nights, all the things that I'd seen on TV and heard about as being an international lawyer and what successful was portrayed to be. So yes, I felt like that in my 20s from a personal perspective. I was pretty tired quite a lot at the time. I think Even in my 20s, I suppose the kind of work hard, play hard vibe that you get in law was very much in motion and I actually took full advantage of it and really enjoyed it. When it started to really affect me was in my early 30s and I was single for most of my, well, most of my 20s and definitely the first half of my 30s. And it was, it was becoming more and more apparent that people were getting married and their life outside of work was being more focused on and my friends are having children and I just started to feel that I'd given too much to work and I hadn't given enough to my personal life. So that side of things was starting to take its toll.

And was there a turning point where you kind of realized that the job was taking over your life? Were there any specific telltale signs or was it just sort of this gradual thing that happened?

It was definitely gradual. It wasn't, it wasn't something that I really picked up on. I found this. Oh, I'm trying to think of the things that really started. My health was starting to take its toll. I got, I kept getting ill, quite regularly, I got. And the problem was when I was getting ill, it was quite severe illness. So I ended up with bird flu and glandular fever. I ended up having pneumonia when I was in Geneva and I just couldn't stop. So I wasn't very good at delegating. I could feel my. I was getting snappier towards some of my colleagues around me, which, you know, if I was going to spend this much time in the office, then, you know, I expect you to spend this much time in the office rather than actually stepping back and going, yeah, maybe you want to step back, step out of the office and spend less time there. But I was so. My identity was so wrapped up in the work, so my health was the telltale sign. I started to get quite teary eyed. I watched, I was in relationships with people that just weren't appropriate and didn't mean. I was always second best to something, whether it was another woman, whether it was a job, whether it was to children, I was just never a priority. And that was the stuff that started to really take its toll. And I used to see that take a knock on my confidence. It took a knock on my ability to stop crying. I couldn't stop crying quite a lot of the time, and I used to go. Go home and just sit in the bath and cry, and I was just like, oh, crikey, I don't. I don't know what's going on. So, yeah, slowly. Slowly by slowly, things started to take its toll, and I. I started to feel like I was becoming more introverted and not wanting to do as much as I used to do.

So a couple of points that I want to pick up on that is because I've known you. I've always known you to sort of be sort of quite a b. And quite fun to be around. So it's interesting, the point that you said about being snappy with your colleagues and sort of almost having the view that, I mean, if I'm here, you're here. Because that is something, I mean, we've talked about on a past episode and something which I was definitely aware of, where there is that sort of attitude from more senior people, generally partners. Whereas the case of, well, yeah, I did this, and that's how it was for me. So therefore, this is how it should be for you. Why are you complaining? Not really recognizing that it wasn't right then and it isn't right now, and also that times are changing.

Yes, I think. I think we can all recognize that a little bit.

Yeah. Yeah. It's a common. It's a common thing in those. In those hallowed holes of those law firms. So once you started to realize these things about yourself, did you put it as, okay, it's the job and I need to leave, or did you just think, well, this is just the way that everybody else is, so just suck it up?

So for me, I had started to recognize that this wasn't particularly healthy and something was wrong. And there was a day I remember specifically the day that I knew I needed to actually change what was going on here. And it was a day that I'd broken up with a guy I've been dating for six weeks. And my reaction was completely incommensurate to. I think that's the right word. It might not be, but it was completely out of whack with with the time we've been dating and yet I was uncontrollably crying and I drove home to see my parents in France, in Geneva, and, and I, I just got there and my mum said, this is, you need to sort this out. Okay. There's some really big issues under here that you've not addressed and you're putting everything, you're focused into work and everything is there and you're not looking at anything else. It's blocking everything else out. And so that was the day that I went and decided I was going to start therapy. So counseling with, with a beautiful guy called Tony. And he took me through three years of sorting out my daddy issues. All of that knock on effect that that had had on my male relationships by looking at that, which I had avoided constantly for almost 20 years. By 15 years, by that stage, it started to allow me to build up a life outside of the office because my confidence grew. I started to start liking myself. I started to see my worth and my value and what was acceptable and what wasn't acceptable. But it took a lot before I would even look at it. And yeah, I mean, I don't think people need to get that far down the line before that they, they can start realizing that actually you can cry about stuff and you can feel quite vulnerable and you can not be okay all of the time. And that, that in itself is okay.

Wow. Yeah. I want to, I want to delve a bit deeper into that, particularly in relation to, to what you're doing now. But before I do that, you were in obviously one of the big law firms. You spent some time sort of in house, working for a company within a corporate. Was that a conscious move to try and balance your life from what you had before, or was it just going in to do more of the same? Was it like another, this is a great gig. I'm gonna go do it and do it hard and do it big?

Oh, yeah. Second, all the way. I'm mega alpha female. I mean, there's nothing about balance in my life that I thought I needed. I thought it was very balanced. Look, it was all. I was very ambitious. I mean there's, it was. Well, to be quite honest, it was the way that I was able to prove my worth was through work. So I was forever trying to get praise and adulation from the people around me. And so the opportunity to go in house and be senior in house counsel to then take on a global role later was just, oh, look, look, look, I'm going up the ranks and I'm really enjoying this and look how amazing I am. And it did. And you know, it was amazing. And the opportunities there to travel and to work on these huge deals were spent, was still there, but what it did was just quash out all the rest of it. So there's nothing balanced about it, just got even more busy and busier and busier and busier.

I wanted to ask the question because there's always that, that, that, that thing in law, particularly in big law, where people get to a certain level of seniority and they feel the hours are too crazy or they want to have a family or, I mean, they want to stop canceling engagements with their friends or their family or whatever. And in house is sometimes seen as a way of still doing good work, still having a surname of status, because I mean, status is so wrapped up in big law as well. So they kind of go there for balance. So yeah, it's interesting that you just saw it as like, yeah, let's just go.

And yeah, I must say, if anybody, anybody tells you that in house, life is easier, they have never worked in house properly. I, I found it just as hard in house as it was externally.

Yeah, I know there's the, the few stints I've spent in house, it's, you kind of do less with more. So you, you lose all the perks, benefits, whatever you want to call them within a law firm and you, you think you're kind of going to have a more, at least, at least regular hours. You don't expect, expect to necessarily be, be less busy, be, expect to have regular hours. And that isn't necessarily always the case, I think. Used to be, but, but yeah, definitely, definitely not within the last few years, that's for sure. So I'm going to take a slightly different turn to what I was going to take just because I want to continue talking a little bit about what we just discussed because I think what's interesting is that, and I don't know if you would say this, but from the outside looking, it seems as though like your, your legal career is what kind of took you to the point where you were getting so ill and you kind of had to in a sense pull back. But you're, you're still a lawyer now, so it hasn't repelled you. Some people, it's like, I just need to get out of law. But it seems that you, you still enjoy the law. You just didn't enjoy the way that you were doing it and how you were approaching it at the time.

Is that a fair Assessment, Yeah, I think that that is a fair assumption. So it's quite funny. I often ask that question to people who are struggling in law. Is that, do you enjoy it still? And I've never stopped enjoying law. There's other things that have now become equal priorities. I think that's the difference and is so. So my passion is not just being a lawyer and draft. I mean, honestly, at one stage, I'm pretty sure I could have said that one of my favorite things was drafting a joint venture agreement. And no judgment, lots of judgment from my perspective. But. But I did. I mean, I. The thing for me about law, and it's the reason I find it very difficult to give it up at all completely, is that I do like that challenge. I like my breath. My brain operates like a spider diagram. So it, like jumping around from. From one thing to another. I like understanding how that clause ties in with. With another clause. I like to see the bigger picture. To me, it's like a big jigsaw puzzle. So there's my creative part coming in as well. But that. Yeah, that jigsaw puzzle allows me to keep that brain part of me moving very much. My. I'm gonna get this wrong now. My left side of my brain, I think, is that part. I always get these confused. And the. Yeah, that's the bit about Lore I really like, and which is why I'm not. I've not ditched it totally. It's the client interaction and problem solving and being that advisor that is now quite comfortable in what she knows and being able to help people or guide them through things that you, you know, that were quite. You know, are quite difficult, particularly for startups and younger companies that are coming through. That's the bit. That's the bit I still really like.

Okay. Yeah, it's interesting to hear you say that, because I know when I spoke to people or when people are sort of asked about the podcast, and there is this kind of presumption that I'm trying to get everyone to leave law and become a yoga teacher. It's just getting people to sort of think about what it is they're doing, and if you still want to do what you're doing, that's fine, but just doing it intentionally, think about why you're doing it, what you enjoy, and sometimes you can enjoy it. So, I mean, I know other lawyers who enjoy the law. They just don't necessarily enjoy the way that they're practicing it in the organization that they're in. So they can still find a way to do what they do just by going somewhere else or finding a different route.

Exactly. And it's very much around. About your environment and how that fits in with the rest of your life. I've often said that you often find as lawyers that you're. Your life runs in pursuit of. Of your career, whereas actually it should be your career running in parallel with your. Your life. It shouldn't be like one chasing after the other. And I think once you can start getting that balance retained in your. Between your career and your. Your. The rest of your life, everything does feel a little bit easier. Law feels more enjoyable because you've got the other stuff that gets to be. To break it up a bit. And I think that that's, as I said, particularly around the people that you are working with makes all the difference.

Exactly. And for those who are sort of listening and thinking, it sounds like you've got obviously quite a philosophical view about things now you're in a better place. And that ties in with, I think, I guess, with what you're doing now. So you started a life coaching business, Braving Boundary, which we'll sort of talk about why you started that and what it does. But before I delve into that, I want to urge listeners to kind of go and look at your website because I. I obviously looked at it so before this interview and I was fascinated and amazed just by how open and how vulnerable you are in what you put on there and how much somebody who is going through those situations could kind of take away from that. And I wanted to ask, because there's no, there's no hiding behind metaphor. Then there's sort of oblique references. It's kind of very, very sort of open. Like the tough time that you had, was that a conscious decision? Did you feel that you needed to sort of do that to reach the people that you want to reach?

We spend as lawyers so much time with this big veneer of what a lawyer should be. And ever since I went into practice, I've never had this mask of, this is Frieda in the office and this is Frida outside of the office. I've talked to partners the way I've talked to juniors, the way I've talked to support staff. I am who I am. So when I created the website and. Well, forget the website. When I created Brave and Angie's, this was a chance to go, do you know what? You are never going to be comfortable unless you are who you are. And all of the stuff that is going wrong is because you're probably pretending to be someone you're not. And you're probably misaligned from your values. And in order to allow people to open up and to talk and to be vulnerable, there is no way that I know better than to. To be an open book myself. And the website is. The website, I think, is a true reflection of it. Trust me. It took me forever to write because I was like, oh, it's gonna be too vulnerable. It's gonna be. It's all very difficult talking about yourself to start with. But the blog posts, as I've written, the blogs, which, you know, they talk about ostracism, they talk about bullying, they talk about imposter syndrome and mental health issues and all sorts, the whole variety of these lovely. I'm going to put these in inverted commas, not that you can see, but these softer issues that get swept under the carpet. And I'm sorry, but it's about bloody time that we talk openly about these things, because these are the things that destroy lawyers.

They go, no, so, so true. And I mean, you mentioned your blog post there, and they are. I see them come in and I sort of make a point to read them because they are always on point. I can relate to each issue that you talk about, whether it's in relation to me or conversations I've had with others. They are so important. You can tell that they're written from somebody who really understands. And so that's refreshing and I'm sure very helpful to the people who are still going through them, who read them and think, okay, there's somebody out there who understands me. And we seem to almost be on the same wavelength at times. There's times when we've kind of always said the same thing in the same week at different times, and obviously we don't talk about what we're facing. So, yeah, we've both been in that environment. We've both sort of come out of the other side doing sort of slightly different things, but still kind of maintaining what happened and what still happens and wanting to sort of help people.

Yeah, there's no. There's no kind of, oh, we're just going to put some glitter on it now that we're no longer there. And, I mean, I've just written an article about working. Working how to attract millennials because millennials don't work. Or younger lawyers, I shouldn't really call them millennials, but the younger generations of lawyers about how it's going to attract them because their work ethic, their values, are completely different to the older generations. And yet we're still trying to enforce our values and practices onto them. And just looking at that, going, gosh, this wasn't healthy, our practices weren't healthy, but we need to talk about it. And I tell you now, sending out those every time I press a blog post and release it, I do think, oh, I'm going to get in so much shit. At some stage someone's going to be horrible about it. And I'm sure they are and they've got every right to have an opinion. But you do hold your breath because people don't talk about this stuff. They just bury their heads.

Oh, without a doubt. And I think that, I mean, yeah, keep sending them out. I mean, people are getting angry about it and that's good because you're, you're hitting the nerve. You're, you're, you're bringing something open that, that should be there. We, I talk a lot about corporate wellness on, on, on the show and we've had a few conversations about that and they all seem to sort of go in a similar direction. That, yes, it's great that we're talking about it and that there were these corporate wellness sort of programs here and there, but how, how much of an effect do they actually have and how, how supported on are they? Because for example, if you're, if you're a junior associate and you, you want to take care of yourself, you want to go to, okay, let's use yoga because it's a yoga podcast. You want to go to a yoga class at 6 o' clock on a Wednesday and the first day every week. Now if the firm cares about your well being, then you should be able to go. Obviously you know that there are going to be times when things just take priority. But as a general rule, if you need to leave the office at 5:45 and to kind of go to a class, you should be fine. Now there's two ways that that will happen. Either you won't be able to go because someone will come in and make sure they give you work so you can't go, or you will go, but there will be conversations that are being had about you and that's going to affect, it'll affect your appraisal, it affects how you're viewed in the office, it affects all these other, you almost can't win. So I'm interested to sort of know because you've worked, you've worked in industrial law firm, you've worked in house and you've worked in various jurisdictions and now obviously you're, you're a life coach as well. What's your view of corporate wellness? Have you seen it done well? Do you still think it has a long way to go? Do you. Do you think that there's a support there behind it?

Such a good question. Do you know, on the surface, they all look great. Everybody is on the bandwagon of mental health matters at the moment. Look at our program. We care about our employees. Corporate wellness, a lot of it was focused around healthy eating and like your fruit baskets and postures, looking at me in my chair with one knee up and one knee down. Posture clinics. But the focus on mental health is still the thing. No, I don't think it's very well covered. There are some firms I have seen which are excellent. Herbert Smith Freehills has won. And the reason I think that's excellent is because they've got their partners talking about mental health on social media. It's an open conversation. They're very willing to get out and discuss these topics. They've got a program that's ingrained, which it operates at multiple layers. You've got the partners doing one thing. It's simple things like if you're going to send an email to somebody, think about the tone of that email. Does that email need to be sent at 10 o' clock at night or can it wait till the following morning? What is the impact that that's going to have on the person who receives the email? I was just like, hallelujah, thank you very much for that. Yeah, yeah. So that was one thing that I've seen and I thought, well done. Because it's, it's not the big thing. The way to improve corporate wellness, but from a corporate perspective is checking in on your colleagues, checking in on them after there has been an incident. So if the boss has yelled at a colleague, make sure that colleague's okay by sending them an email the next day or picking up the phone and having a call. During lockdown, how many people are upset because they're not in their normal communities? Just have these zoom calls regularly. Check in, talk to them, understand what's going on, ask them how they are not. Because we're at the beginning of lockdown. And this is all unusual because it's the right thing to do. And it's those little things that have been good. The other program that I know is very good is Clarissa Raywood and she's an Australian. Sorry, that's my dog in the background. Clarissa Raywood is. Her program is Happy Lawyer, Happy Life. And she's an Aussie in Brisbane who's a family lawyer who has switched. Well, she's still practicing, owns her own law firm, but also coaches and provides support from that aspect. And she's got this wonderful program. So her whole business is cemented around work, life balance and good practice. So those are two that I've seen working successfully. Most law firms, as far as I can see, are a lot about we've signed up to this charter or we've signed up to this. I can't remember what the American one that the ABA has put together. But we know about these protocols and things. But what are they actually doing? To be honest, not a lot from what I've seen.

I think the email point you mentioned for Herbert Smith Freehills is an excellent one. I haven't thought about it in terms of the bigger picture, but I mean I have thought about it in terms of myself and the things that I've seen because we all know that feeling when you get an email and then there's that sense of anxiety that comes with that email coming in and that itself has an effect on your well being. And as you said, it's. On the one hand it can look relatively small because it's not somebody having a breakdown in the office, but it's, it's still something and it's a starting point. And if every time you're getting those emails and you're getting them at antisocial hours when they don't need to be sent at those times and they have a certain tone and you don't respond within a, what's a timely manner, that there's, there's going to be repercussions, all of those things, they sort of work towards grinding you down and affecting how you show up each day. And you see people become shells of their selves because they, they just don't know how to, how to be or they don't feel that they can be, be themselves. So.

Yeah, I would agree with that. Yeah. And I think also is the one thing that is really important to know about mental health is that how one person is going to react to a situation is very different to how somebody else is going to react. And that I know you can't cater for, you know, everything, but you do have to have an awareness about a wide ish range of likely outcomes of you saying something. And you know, I've been on the receiving end of some vile emails in the past and just gone, I mean like I have a, I call it my Teflon dress when they come flying and you're just like Boom, it hits your armor. And I'm, you know, I'm fortunate, you know, I'm old enough and ugly enough and wise enough to have gone. I've built this resilience up. But, I mean, If I was 10 years ago, I wouldn't be able. I wouldn't have that robustness to be able to deflect some of that just unnecessary vileness, unnecessary, unacceptable behaviors. Be quite honest.

Yeah, I mean, unacceptable behavior within law firms, within sort of companies was obviously rife. If you go back sort of the 80s and before that as well, and protocols are supposed to be in now to sort of like, stop those things happening, but you still sort of hear stories of things happening and particular person, I mean, not necessarily being reprimanded. You know, I mean, they're still around because they make money or whatever. And it's the sort of junior lawyers that are having to sort of deal with the brunt of that and either leave or whatever they can do to kind of protect themselves. And you don't want to be, like you said, you can stand up and you can kind of fight for yourself. You don't want to go into work every day feeling you're in a battle. Right. You want to go into work feeling like you're working towards something with people who you respect and who respect you and who you can. Who you can just be around and speak to if you have any issues. And they will listen and they will. They will care and not just treat you as a. As a resource, as I've heard more than one partner referred to as a. Before people, first and foremost. And then you can kind of build on in terms of the other stuff. You will naturally sort of have that sort of empathy for them. If you're looking at them as real people with real lives and real emotions.

Absolutely. And that really comes down to. I think. I think the only way in the law firm that that becomes viable is if you take a collaborative approach. So you see the value that all levels bring to the table. So, you know, the young ones, they've got tech experience way beyond us. You know, the. They've also got life experience that we don't have. Everybody brings something different to that table. The older generation have. Have the legal experience that you need and that deal experience. But the difficulty is where you've got this hierarchical system that is absolutely ingrained in people. And you will respect me because I hold this title. And nothing outside this boxed system will be acceptable. And unless you break that down, mental health is. Forget it, to be honest.

Yeah. And that brings me to something else I was going to ask you then is how do you think there's a future for the current model of big law? I mean, for years, I mean, I was in big law for 11 years and I think even as a junior lawyer there was talk of getting rid of the billable hour. And it's still there. And so there's got the billable hour, you've got the hierarchical structure that you just talked about and then you've got, as you said in your blog about sort of millennials or younger lawyers coming in. And it's not that they don't want to work hard, they just want to work smart, they want to work differently, they want to work efficient, they don't want to, don't want to be sat around waiting for documents until midnight just because somebody a few days. So how, if at all, do you see that, that structure surviving? And if it isn't going to survive, what do you think the future is?

Short ANSWER no, I don't think that is a survivable system. I think it's already been. I think this year is probably going to be the beginning of it turning around. So billable hour, what an archaic system to be operating in in law. How can a junior lawyer have a number of hours that it doesn't have any, that it's got to meet, that it has no control about who its clients are, where that work comes from. And it's always the bloody junior lawyers that get their hours cold when the partners have decided that they wanted to spend four hours on a matter and basically triple the value of that particular matter Anyway. Maybe an aside point, but the billable hour has to change. One, if you are going to cater for mental health within the working environment, which is a priority for the younger generation. Those two things do not work hand in hand. If you've got to hit 2,000 hours a year, how are you possibly going to have a balanced life? So that in itself I think is going, is where it's going to change. We're seeing more and more breakaway individuals. There are more structures coming into place. Like I'm going to get these names wrong. Axiom, I think is one of them, which is the kind of it's a different styled law firm where they have, it's a lot of outsourcing work at a cheaper price. You've got individuals who are going into kind of a contracting fixed fee model. There's so many different versions of lawyers now to compete with the big law firms that I don't think that they're going to be able to sustain those big overheads. And what I think, I think would be a sensible thing to do is take the short term hit now, reduce down those, the big building sizes still have nice offices, but I don't think that they need these absolutely sprawling offices and get down so that they can charge out at a higher value potentially because they, you know, but it's more on par with what consultants and smaller boutique firms are capable of charging out. Their marketing tool is still going to be their global capability. I think that they are going to need to come down. My view on the replacement for the billable hour, I mean I need to think this through a little bit more, but I think that maybe a retainer model becomes a little bit more palpable. Those profits need to be reassessed. If they are, do they need to be as high as they currently are? It's looking at a different way of determining value for people. I think juniors and mid level associates should be trained in business development at a much earlier stage and start being rewarded for bringing in new clients and get, you know, get bonuses for a result of the clients that they bring in. And, and that is nothing to do with the billable out. That's, that's to do with value you bring into the firm.

And that value then also leads you to feeling like you have more control because that's the other point is that as sort of junior mid level associates, a lot of people talks about having this lack of autonomy. It's not so much that they're having to work long hours because look, most people in these positions, they want to work hard, they're intelligent, they're ambitious, they want to do good work, they want to work on good deals. But they also don't want to just be at the whim of people who maybe don't have the same values that they do. So it goes back to kind of what I sort of joked about before, which are very real cases of being in an office all day and getting sort of five, six o' clock, thinking you're going to go home and then somebody saying this needs to be done urgently and you go down the train. The email was received a week ago and I mean someone's only just got around to look, now your weekend is over or your plans are shut or whatever. But if you have control then you can plan. You can sort of think, okay, well this is going to be a particularly hairy time because this, this is a really big deal and it's a really tight time like okay, fine, I can carve that time out. But then I know at this time that it's going to be a little, a little bit more laid back so I can kind of plan things in accordingly. And then you kind of feel like you're in control of your own life and that helps with a, with, with the mental health side of things to some respect in that you don't feel like you're on this hamster reel where you're continuously just running out of control.

I agree, I agree with all that.

One of the quotes that I took from your, your side is, so, so I stepped into the unknown one baby step at a time and I began braving boundaries, which I thought was great. I thought it was great for a number of reasons. Obviously braving boundaries in there, and that's the name of the business. But this idea of stepping into, into the unknown and also taking one step because I, I think as, not just as lawyers, but, but anyone who's kind of been in something for a long time, the thought of doing something else just is just scary. He's just like, well, I can't, I spent all my life doing this. If I'm going to do anything else, it surely has to kind of be like an offshoot of this. To do something completely different is completely out of, out of my mind. And you've, I mean, you've done that. You're, you're, you're coaching and you, you coach lawyers. But I mean, it's a completely different career to the one that you, that you had, what made you, what gave you the idea to create braving boundaries? And, and how did you find it effectively stepping into the unknown?

I'm going to start with the second part of that question first. Stepping into the unknown. That probably explains why I got to braving boundaries. Anyway, so my first big step into the unknown was through counseling. So I actually had to step backwards to look at what I was ignoring. My second step into the unknown was quitting my job as corporate in house counsel and taking a year out of everything. No backup plan, no sabbatical, no safety net, and going, do you know what? I've got enough courage inside me to know that I'm going to be okay. And that was the end of 2016. And then my setting up braving boundaries itself wasn't the scary jump. It's the jump I'm literally about to make at the end of this week, which is leaving ever sheds and fully solo, both from a braiding boundaries perspective and from a legal consultancy perspective. So stepping into the unknown for me really comes down to the lessons that I learned back then. And it was one baby step at a time. And it's funny because I was reading my yoga journal earlier this morning when I was writing my post and it says in there, one step at a time. And that was 2017. And. And it is about that, is that I think there's three steps really around change and creating that change in your life. One is building your own confidence back up, finding your value, seeing what you should be proud about yourself for. What have you achieved? What have you done? What are the things that make you so, so special? And build that confidence up and start promoting yourself internally first and then externally start liking who you are and seeing what value you bring to the table. That's what I had to do first. That was the counseling aspect for me. The second part was understanding what my values were and knowing what was in alignment and what was out of alignment. Because until you know kind of where all of that discomfort is sitting, how can you possibly know, know what you want from the future? So it was a realignment of values that I learned very much through my year away, started to prioritize myself, what I was doing in my life. And then that third point was going, hang on a second here, what do I want from the future? And having that really clear idea of what I was working towards. Because without having that clear vision, and it doesn't have, don't get me wrong, it doesn't have to be okay, I want to be here at 59 and I want to be here at 42 and blah, blah, blah. It's this bigger concept of I want to be able to go walking the dogs in the middle of the day without feeling guilty. I want to be able to clock off at 4:00, one day a week so I can go and do yoga. I want to be able to start at 10 o' clock in the morning, whatever it is for you. And everybody's version of balance is different. But having that bigger vision for what you want and what you're creating is absolutely vital to know what, what steps you need to take. And then I promise you that change is less difficult because you work out what little steps you need to take to get you there.

Well, it's like you've, you've walked in my shoes. But yeah, it's true. It's that it's. Once you develop that intention, then it helps you to figure out, okay, well, this is kind of where I want to be, or this is what I Want my life to look like? What steps do I need to take to get there? And I think what it is, is that we kind of almost do it backwards. We. I speak for, speak for myself, but I noticed it being the same for many others. You almost sleepwalk into what it is that you're doing if you, if you go straight through from, from as a graduate and you, you kind of get wooed by the law firms and you, you kind of do your vacation scheme, you get your training contract, and then you kind of go through the system and every year you're getting paid a little bit more money. You'll get you another year more qualified. You may be on another bigger deal. But how many times do you sort of just take that step to kind of assess the situation, think, do I still like this? Is this still working for me? Or do I just. Do I want more control over my life? Do I want to do some of the things like you said? And if I do, how do I make that happen? And if you don't, that's okay. But to at least have that thought and feel that you're, you're in control of your life and your life is in control of you makes such a big difference to kind of how you show up every day, both for yourself and for others.

That's such a good point. It is about feeling in control of your life and not the other way around. The other point just to make there, around making a change is that a lot of people, it feels a lot more difficult to make a change if you've, the longer you've been in a particular situation. So that first change of actually stepping out of LDC and going into taking that year out felt so much harder than this change. Because I've got the tools to kind of support me through this now. And I know, you know, I'm not starting from ground zero. I'm starting from pretty. Pretty decent level.

Exactly. Once. Yeah, once you've done it once. We used to say for people in law, in my trainee group, like, obviously a lot of people tend to sort of move firms that say two years qualified, Those that do that then just find it easier to sort of move sort of throughout their career. Whereas those that don't, like myself, who was there for 11 years, every time it gets a bit harder because you, you just become, no matter what you like or don't like, you'll become so part of the system.

You primed.

Yeah. You just understand everything that goes on. So you understand what's wrong and you understand what the Problems are, but at least you understand them. Whereas if you go somewhere else, it could be completely out of your. I mean, you just don't know. And then you're in almost in the worst position, is how you say it. But I think when you.

Yeah, that is.

But I think when you, if you can kind of think bigger than that and think that, well, actually, I don't just have to kind of go and do the same thing. There is this whole of the world out there that can then sometimes sort of help you to sort of go out and. Yeah. Explore something different.

Yeah. And I think that that's a really good point. Is that because you're a lawyer, doesn't mean you have to be a lawyer. Doesn't mean you only have to. Can only work in a law firm, can only go in house. And I coach a lot around that. Is that, well, what opportunities do I have? You know what, what else could I be? I'm sitting there going, I've become a coach. I'm about to do my, my applied psychology degree. You know, it's, there's, you know, you're a yoga teacher and there's, you know, there's such a range. And those skills that you attain from being a lawyer, we just sit down and actually work out what those strengths are and what we've got and how transferable they are.

No, exactly. And speaking of the coaching, so I started seeing the coach at the beginning of the year and it was a game changer for me. I mean, I was already, I mean, yoga was like the big shift. And then I was already doing a lot of personal development work myself, but I heard of people seeing coaches and I thought of coaches, but I was like, well, what's a coach going to do and what can they do for me that I can't do for myself? And, and I said in something that I wrote a few months ago that it's not solely what they did I couldn't do for myself, it's just that it got me there a lot quicker. You're just moving a lot faster. So for anyone listening who might have had the same thoughts that I had, what would you say the role of a coach is particularly in comparison to, say, a mentor? Some people have mentors in their organizations or a best mate or. Yeah, I mean, or a good boss. If you work for someone who you really like, who you feel has your back, what does a coach give you that's different? And why would you say that people should look to hire one?

For me, that's quite a Simple answer. And the focus of the coach is you and your experience and everything that you bring to the table. So whereas a mentor is going to use their own experience to be able to guide you through what they think you should do because it's what's worked for them. And you know, there is a huge place for mentors and lots of people do actually gain a lot from understanding what other people's experience is rather. But talking to your best friend, you're going to get nuanced answers based on their experience. There's going to be a conversation that is influenced by what they've gone through, what, what they're thinking at the time. Talking to your boss is going to be potentially a very good conversation. It's probably more of a mentor conversation if you're going to have it with your boss. But you're also potentially, there's potentially a conflict of interest because a boss is going to be potentially advising with his own set of ambitions, his own set of career objectives and your objectives in mind. So a coach thing I love about a coach and a counsellor, but in a slightly different context, is that a coach is there for you. You go for an hour, an hour and a half session, once every couple of weeks and you get to talk. What about you coach, just ask you questions. It's a chance to reflect. It's a chance to listen back to the stuff that's going on in your head and hear it reflected back at you so you can start seeing things from a different perspective. It's about guiding you through. Well, hang on a second, you've said this. What about looking at it from this angle? What about seeing it from this perspective? How does that make you feel? And the coach isn't going to advise you. It's going to force you to use your tools, your experience, you, your life. Why should I be telling you what to do? You know what to do. It's using your experience and your capabilities and your strength and your courage, confidence to be able to adapt, work things through and then move life, move on in life in a much more confident manner because you're completely self sustaining by that state. Coaching isn't a long term thing like canceling. It should be three to six months really if you're looking 12 to 24 sessions really. And it's a relatively expensive investment for a short period, for a long term return. Counseling is very much when you don't feel that you can actually move forward, you're stuck in a position where you can't move forward. And a bit Like a boat where you have to just be righted before you can start moving forwards. Whereas a coach, you are very much upright. You're just trying to work out which direction you want to take.

Yeah, yeah, I think that, that definitely, I can definitely agree with that. It's Chinese. With my experience, the times when I said something in a coaching session, which to me is just a throwaway comment, something that I would say normally and then do you want to talk about that or how do you feel about. Oh man, like I should have just kept my mouth shut. But actually that's when you end up getting to places which you, you mean having those sort of breakthroughs or finding out things about yourself that never really knew or that were always there but you never kind of let them out. So, yeah, I find it, I do find it fascinating and yeah, I would agree with you and I would urge anyone to kind of, yeah, go and sort of see a coach and I mean you've got to find one that works for you. But I think when you do, you'll be amazed at the results that you can get. You have on your website a three day challenge. What does that challenge entail and who's aimed at, who should sign up for it?

So Bring Back Balance is the three day challenge. And the idea is that if you're not sure about whether or not you want to coach or you're not really sure about what it entails, or you just want to kind of dip your toe in without having to go and talk to somebody about all of your issues and having this 30 minute conversation where you're just going, I'm going to be so exposed. The three day challenge is just a chance to do three different exercises. I'm trying to remember, trying to remember which order they're in. Now the first one, I think it's all about time and looking at time management and going, I am never going to expect you if you're looking to create work life balance, to suddenly go, okay, I'm going to leave the office three days a week and go and do a run for a run, a yoga session and walk the dogs and I'm going to start eating healthily. It's about fitting in 30 minutes for three days of time that is specifically for you and doing exercises that are appropriate and thought provoking and self caring for three days to start to feel how easy it is to fit in 30 minutes if you want to do that and you won't do it if you don't care and that's fine. But if you really want to start changing. Building in 30 minutes a day is actually not that difficult. So that's the idea of that. And the reality is, if you, once you start saying you can do 30 days or you can fit in an hour of coaching for, you know, as you, as you go down the line, if you decide to do coaching, you start to see that, well, once that hour is replaced, because you're no longer doing that or you're not doing that particular thing for 30 minutes, you have that time. That time exists. Not to go fill it with work again, but to go and do something that is better for you. So you do have time. Even though we have this concept, like. Yeah, Concept that we're always out of time, there's not enough time in the day. It's bitter self care.

Exactly. Yeah. No self care. So time for yourself is true. And what you said is right. You can always feel there's always work to do. Right. You can always fill time with work. So unless you prioritize, unless you prioritize your wellness, your wellbeing, then work will just take everything it can from you. And who. Who is the challenge aimed at that for people who haven't been coached before? Is it specifically for lawyers?

It doesn't have to. I coach. I coach lawyers. I mean, that's. That's definitely been niche and makes sense given my background. But I coach professionals at large. The challenges is very much capable of being done by anybody. You do not have to be a lawyer. We all have the same things. We are all people is the reality of what we're telling lawyers. So our identity really doesn't matter to do that challenge. So. And it's not. If you've done coaching, you could do that challenge. Sometimes we just need a bit of a refresher. Sometimes life gets completely out of whack. It's not always balanced. We can't. You know, I'm not. I don't have the perfect life the whole time. I don't have the most balanced life just because I've become a coach. Life gets chaotic. I just have tools and have learned ways to bring it back into balance a little quicker.

And that's a nice segue into yoga, because that's the same thing I say about yoga is it's. I mean, people think that the yoga teachers have got it all together and is all. And I mean, you're Zen all the time and actually you're not. And I actually said on my Instagram stories last week about the mini freakout that I had that we talked about before, this call about my lack of organization and now it just all got too much. And when it gives you the tools, as you said, you know, I mean, you, you, you're aware, you're aware of yourself, first of all. So you're aware that you're in a state which probably isn't good for you and you probably don't need to be in that. You can catch yourself and then you can use the tools at your disposal to kind of like steer yourself out of that pretty quickly as opposed to letting it consume you and sort of leading to sort of worse things and to kind of like take you through it. So. Yeah. So yoga, tell me about your yoga journey. I know for, for some that I've spoken to is like the job, the corporate world, the law firm, it was too much. And yoga was kind of like what people turn to for their solace. Was that the same for you or did you come to yoga earlier than that?

No, no, mine was all about body issues. That's what got me to yoga. It was. Yeah. So I've, I've never been very good with my figure and gosh, gosh, I've never talked about this from a yoga perspective, but that's actually the truth of it is that I, I used to have this thing where I, I, I never starved myself, I never was sick or anything, but I used to eat and then run off the equivalent calories of what I've eaten. So I'm sure there is an illness around that and I'm sure it's a type of anorexia, if I'm honest. But that was very much kind of my mental state in my 20s. So I did a lot of sport, not only from the praise and that very alpha attitude, but also because I wanted to control my weight. Now when I was living in Hong Kong, boozy, boozy lifestyle, I mean, we were out five, six nights a week drinking it. I was so conscious about this Hong Kong, Hong Kong stone that everyone had talked about that no matter what time we got in, in an evening, I used to go and run and get up and go to the gym for two hours. Now, it never actually controlled my weight. And it was, I mean, the reality was I was never that big. I mean, that's the crux of it. But it wasn't particularly healthy and I was getting tired and it just wasn't working and I didn't, you know, ended up being. Next thing was a 21km run and a 42km run and, you know, it just got further and Further or harder. And I just, I was tired and my friend said to me, oh, come on, come to Bikram, I'll take you to Bitcoin. And Cathy, she's known me Since I was 6 and we were in Singapore at the time and she says, come to absolute, we'll go, we'll go, we'll go training there. I said, look, I'm not going to do yoga and sit and lie on the floor and do some stretching. How is that possibly going to help me lose weight or get me slim down my thighs or whatever it was at the time. And I got into the first bikran class and she took me to a 90 minute class. Holy shit. I still remember coming out thinking, I can't see, I've got so dizzy, I thought was gonna vomit. My heart rate was going at the rate of knots. But it was, it was what a class. And I mean, I mean I do do Bigram's what I trained in. And, and it's this, that hot, like isolation and I was behind a line of people at that stage and everyone was wobbling around in front of me, which is incredibly distracting. And, and I just remember thinking, oh wow, at least it burnt 10, 10, 10 kilometers worth of calories. There we go. A bit psycho I suppose in my own brain at that stage, but, but that's what got me to yoga to start with.

Okay, now that's, that's interesting. Is it? Because it's a different story to some that I've heard. And so you just said that obviously you left that class just feeling quite sort of spaced out and be like, what the hell happened there? Which seems to be the thing for a lot of people, whether it's Beckham or whatever they do, they kind of go to the first class and they, they struggle through it. It's a challenge, it's not what they expected, but they keep going back. So, so what kept you going back?

Oh, I felt amazing the next day I felt, I've not felt my heart rate like I've not felt as challenged as I did in a Bickham class. And it was, there was, I felt clean getting all that sweat out. And the thing that I found so amazing in that first class was although there was a whole lot of distraction in that front row and I was, I was, I didn't know what I was doing, so I was doing a lot of looking around was that at points of that and in a pose, the only thing I could do was concentrate on myself. I couldn't think about what work was going on. I couldn't think about what was doing after. Could barely think about what was in my drink bottle. I was like, okay, all we've got to do is breathe here and otherwise we are literally going to pass out. And it was about. There was a quietness that really took over my head, which was definitely not taking over my body, that my body was freaking out. But in my head there was this absolute peace. It was amazing.

Yeah, I mean, I know that feeling well. It's that image of yoga, of you go to Bikram to sort of really sweat it out and you make yourself flexible to get into all these amazing poses and that's what kind of brings people to yoga and that, that real sort of physical aspects of it. But I think one, when you get to the point where you notice that, where it's like your mind is just, you're just focused, I mean, you can hear your breath and you're so sort of shaking, but you're trying to relax into the pose and then you're kind of looking inwards and then suddenly you're having these conversations with yourself and as you say, never happened before. It doesn't matter. Work's not there. I mean, whatever, I mean arguments you may have had or whatever is not there. That's when you kind of really start to sort of see the magic, in my opinion, when you can sort of delve deeper. Oh yeah, you, you, you obviously got to that stage and then you did your teacher training. How long were you practicing before you did your training?

Nine years probably. Yeah, I think I started maybe seven. Seven years. 2009, I think I started yoga and I did it in 2017. Seven years.

And where did you train?

I trained in. For the teacher training. I trained through evolution yoga and I did it in Paris and in the Les Bas studio. Yeah, right in the center of Paris. So I did actually trained in French and in English. It was so cool. I had no idea what was going on.

In French.

Yeah, I know what that word is.

I'm sure your French is great. You spent time as well. But even so, I mean, having done my 300 hour and knowing how intense that was, just mentally as well as physically in the language you speak. As my first language, I can't imagine how it was because even no matter how well you speak a language and obviously, I mean, I know people who speak languages fluently. When you're in a, it's still your second language, you're still having to sort of make that switch.

Oh yeah. The one thing about bikram is that you know what's coming. So a big part of my brain probably just ignored the dialogue. And I think I'm so comfortable in the Bickram series that I don't even know if I listen to the English anymore. Unless it's Frieda. Put your hips, adjust your hips, tuck your tailbone. You know, the little kind of personal that come in, I don't, quite frankly, I probably don't listen to half the stuff that goes on. I'm so focused on myself.

So I guess you enjoyed your teacher training, right?

I loved it. And it was, it was quite interesting because I've gone into it thinking, I'm going to become a yoga teacher, I want to be, I want to teach this. And actually realized halfway through that I didn't. And, and it wasn't because I fell out of love with it or I mean, goodness, I mean, 100 back bends a day, I was a bit like, oh, halfway, yeah, definitely halfway through my teacher training, I was questioning what I was doing. But it ended up really strengthening my practice. And for me, and this, I know it is personal, is that I didn't want to switch from it becoming my release and my escape to becoming my dog. And I realized that at about two weeks. So the second half, when I was doing all the actual teaching, I enjoyed it, but it wasn't, it wasn't the focus of it anymore.

Yeah, and I think that's, that's fine. I mean, and that's right, because I can't remember who I speak to now, but we're having a conversation saying that I think everyone, if everybody could do a 200 hour, you know, I mean, the transformation that they would get would be amazing. And again, not to teach, but just for themselves and for their own practice and for their own sort of well being and to do their own inner work. But yeah, teaching is, it is different. It can. If you're not careful. And we got warned about it on our teacher training. It can take you away. If you stop practicing yourself, doing your own daily practice and you're running around trying to teach all the time, then yeah, it can make a difference. So the fact that you spotted that early on is a, is a good thing. Do you think you'll ever teach or you definitely. No, it's just me. It's just my practice now.

I think that. Do you know what? I don't know if I'll ever teach. I know that I'll never stop practicing. And whether that, I mean, I do say never say never. So maybe it's something that comes at a lot a later point in my life. I'm very much. There's other things that are a priority for me from a work perspective at the moment.

Yeah okay. The fact that you've got, that you've got the tools as you said, I mean you understand it from a teacher's point of view I think is enough to kind of give you, give you what you need.

Yeah yeah I mean that's a really nice, nice position to be in. It's knowing the, knowing that every time I go into a class no matter how hard each of those classes feel I know that I know how to make it work for me to its full advantage and I also know when I'm being lazy not doing things because oh I.

Do still practice Bikram or have you sort of graduated to other styles or.

I practice Bikram I practice Bikram fusion which is basically a mix of Vinyasa and Bikram and a pure Vinyasa. I do a bit of Yin from time to time which I love Yin. It's nothing like a good six minute frog pose.

Yeah I'm a fan don't do anywhere near enough but oh gosh no but.

You know Yin is one, one for a Sunday as far as far as I'm concerned.

Excellent. So as we're kind of, we're moving towards the final stretch of this interview but we still have a few questions to go. Do you, do you have a morning routine and, and if so what does that look like?

Absolutely not And I've forced myself to break it. I used to be up at quarter to six, go to the gym, do an hour, hour, hour, hour and a half of something and go to work. That needs to be it. Now sometimes I get up at 6, sometimes I get up at 4, sometimes I get up at 8 sometimes I've walked the dogs. Nothing is I. I realize that one of my, my top 10 kind of values is variety and I thrive when I to not not be in a structured routine so I have, I have actually gone out to try and break break my, my routine habits.

It's great. So that's an interesting approach because obviously there is a, there's so much written about the importance of a morning routine. I mean even I've read although it was more from my own perspective rather than you must do this but yeah it seems to be that to be successful you, you have to get up at 4am or 5am and you have to do all of these things before you start the day so Yeah, I think for someone like yourself, who obviously has been and single, still continues to be successful and is doing lots of different things, to just go with how you feel is. Yeah, it's inspiring.

I think, I think routine, Routine definitely has its place in creating a new habit and locking it into becoming part of your day to day practice. But once you've got it in there and it becomes habitual, I do think it's quite good to break it, to just make sure that you get that variety. And the minute we start falling back into absolute routines and this is what we do, the minute the routine is forced out of work for some reason or other, like Covid, you know, we fall into fight or flight mode and it becomes quite scary again. So keeping keeping that fear at bay because we're not used to things and we can manage on the, on the hop, we are better off.

Yeah. The routines, the routine's supposed to be there for your well being but if the routine is affecting your well being, then yes, time to do something else. Mix it up. So with the work that you're. Thank you. I will keep that one. With braving boundaries. Would you say that you've found your purpose in the work, work that you're doing?

100%. There is not a client that I don't look forward to talking to and speaking to. I, I love watching the transformation that happens to people. I mean it's going to sound quite la di da, but I mean I feel like I've coached well beyond, you know, the two and a half years I've been doing this. It's. For me, it's, it's so natural. I love helping people. I've always been someone that people have gone to to help with their problems and, and just listen. I'm a good listener and, and being able to create that into a business and to allow that skill, I suppose to be available to more and more people, people I don't know and people who haven't had access to me, it's quite a gift to be able to give back. And particularly for that legal sector where there aren't that many others who are doing this, it's a real chance to help people.

And so being in the position that you're in and having found your purpose and I mean being through what you've been through and come through the other side. What tip or piece of advice would you give to listeners that may be trying to figure out their purpose?

That's a good question. Oh gosh, what would it. To me, it's your Purpose is a. It's about your intuition and it's listening to your gut and listening to the things that work for you and are right for you because you get. You have a sense of knowing, a sense of comfort that comes when you actually act in accordance with what you value and what you believe in. And you might not find your purpose straight away. It took me a good. Oh, it took me a good while to find out what I really wanted to do. And, you know, I kind of fell into coaching to start with. I didn't really. I got coached and found it, but, you know, I didn't realize what I was getting into. But just. I used my intuition to go, this might help me. Let me try this. Let's see what this is. It's being open to things that you haven't done before and exploring things and finding out what works for you, what doesn't work for you, what relationships are good for you, what relationships aren't good. You. What friendships are good for you. Is this the work I enjoy doing? Asking yourself these questions, becoming aware, becoming answerable to yourself? Really? Is that do. Am I happy doing this? Am I healthy doing this? Is this good for me? Is this good for my family? Is this, this what I want to be doing for the rest of my life? And I think once you start questioning yourself and questioning those bloody false beliefs that we've grown up with and actually asking, are these really true? Then I think you start finding your purpose and what you should be doing. What you should be doing, what you want to be doing.

Yeah, I think that's great advice to sort of give. Yeah, Just. Just figure out what works for you, not what people think you should be doing, because everyone will have an opinion. Right. So, yeah.

Oh, God, yeah. So you do have to very much step into your own opinion.

With the benefit of hindsight. If you could go back and speak to your big law self, what would you say?

Everybody's replaceable. That is a question. That statement, I wish I had been told a lot earlier. And it's a statement that you won't get told because it doesn't benefit the big corporates. It was a lesson that I learned and was incredibly painful. But what it allowed me to do was to put less emphasis on the work and more emphasis on my life and myself. So knowing that your family are the people that are going to be missing you when you're gone, your friends are going to be the people that turn up at your wedding in order to meet the person you're going to marry if you're going to marry, then you need to be outside of the office. Really, in most cases, what's the priority? What's important here? Because I tell you now, as high a position as you get, the working world is not going to fall apart if you are not there.

Wow, that's, that's powerful because you do get, as I say, you get caught up in the bubble and you think that I have to be there. I'm the only one that can do this. No one else can do this without me. You know, I mean, I'm sick, I'm in bed at home, but I still have to do this deal. And then, yeah, I mean, if you're not there, well, you're told that, yeah.

You'Re told that you are. It's, it's ingrained in you that you are vital, that you are necessary. It can't be done without you. And it serves your ego to an extent. But, but it means that you give and give and give. And I tell you now, a corporate will take and take and take.

Yeah. So, yeah, definitely, yeah. And a final question before we go into quickfire round. What are you most grateful for right now?

It's my tagline, having the courage to make the change. So it was just believing in myself and going against all of those identity instincts and actually going and living the life that I wanted and going out and getting it.

Another powerful statement.

I'm a walking quote book.

You can come again. I think that there'll be people scribbling notes down there and going back and listening and pausing for this one. That's been great. I think there's some really, really great tips that people can take away. But also I think just sharing your story and the openness with which you share your story is going to be really helpful to, due to some people out there. So, so thank you for that. Okay, a few quick questions. It's just a bit of fun, so don't, don't stress them. And you know, I mean, I'm playing around with these. I mean, so they've changed a bit and they'll change more in the future, but here we go.

Okay.

Private practice. Private practice or in house?

In house.

South Africa or Singapore?

South Africa.

Better say that because you're living there.

That's quite a hard one. That would be Singapore, probably be number two. So yeah, South Africa.

Favorite yoga pose.

I can actually tell you this in yoga speak. So Dandi Amana Dhararasana standing bow pulling pose.

Okay, that's good. Excellent. So another one not for Shavastha that's great.

I have a, I have a very, very flexible mid back, so very flexible lower back. So anything that's like a nice big pose with my leg up in the air is great.

Yeah, I'm still working on opening my back but yeah, it always looks so graceful when I. That's good. Yoga class with music or without music?

With music.

Is there a particular quote or words of wisdom that you live your life by?

No, there isn't. I have, I have lots of different quotes that I refer to. There's one called Breathe which is too long to recite but. And I don't have it to hand. But no, there's. It depends what I'm going through and I refer to different quotes for those things.

Okay, what's the most impactful book you've read in the last 12 months?

I haven't read a book in the last 12 months. Properly. I actually think it might be Nicholas Sparks book which is not so great. Well, it is. I love Nicholas Sparks but it's not exactly like life changing.

That's okay. It's not to shame. I mean, I mean I know I went through a period where I didn't read much at all because I was reading so much other stuff, whether it's the news or blogs or articles here and there or work stuff.

So can I tell you the most impactful, the most impactful book I have ever read was the Power of Vulnerability by Brene Brown. Was something that really changed, changed my life. So.

Yeah, I still haven't, I haven't read or listened to Brene Brown. But somebody else I think it was Sharan on episode 3 mentioned a quote from Brene Brown. So yeah, I must go in there.

That's. That is my favorite, favorite one is the power vulnerability. She's excellent.

Cool. And final question, what's your dream yoga routine? Treat destination?

Oh, maybe. You see, I think you should come here. So I actually think South Africa is phenomenal for a holiday destination. And I actually think just beach, mountain, you know, you've got everything on your doorstep. It's kind of the reason I came to Cape Town to do retreats and that will be a coaching retreat. So I'm going to end up inviting you over to come and teach. I actually think this is going to be the best destination.

I've never been to South Africa and so yeah, to kind of go there and to go there and teach would be, would be amazing. So yeah. Okay, sign me up.

Deal.

What a way to end the show. Do you have anything coming up soon or in the future that you, you, you want to talk about and let the listeners know about.

No, I mean, look, I'm, I'm leaving. I'm, I'm right in the transitional period at the moment of leaving living big Law, Big law leaving partnership to become independent legal consultant. There we go. Walking my talk. No, but I mean if you, if they would like, if your listeners would like to follow bravely Boundaries, there will be tons of inspirational quotes, obviously and there'll be more information about coaching and I very much focus on one on one coaching. And it will be developing that practice and more and more workshops around mental health in the law and improving the attitude and lessening the stigma around it within law firms and breaking down that nonsense that goes on in there. So there'll be more workshops that come out, but they are in the process of being developed.

Excellent. Exciting things ahead and really important things ahead. So for anyone listening out there, I definitely urge you to go ahead and check out Braving Boundaries. Do you want to just run through various places people can find you?

Oh yes, you can find me on LinkedIn and that's breaking boundaries on. Or you can just find my name, which is far more complicated to spell. But Braving Boundaries you can look for there. I'm on Instagram, which is the prettier and more fun one, I think. And also on Facebook and My website is www.braidingboundaries.com.

Excellent. And we'll put all of those in the show notes. And yeah, definitely go and check out the, the website and also have a look at the three day challenge. See if it's something that could work for you to get some more balance in your own life. Well, thanks very much. It's been great. Even with the, the interruption of. I think it was the Cape Town. Cape Town WI fi there. Right. That, that went down.

It's probably Eskom, which just decided it was going to turn off electricity for three hours of the working day. Hello.

It had to happen the first remote interview. I mean, what would it be without a hitch? Right, but which I'll fix or I'll have somebody fix in the editing later. It's been a great. I still feel there's lots more that we could talk about and I'm looking forward to us talking again. And yeah, ready and waiting to come over to South Africa to teach on a retreat. So drop me a line.

Exciting. Oh, we will definitely do that. Thank you so much. That was such a treat. Honestly, it was so nice chatting to you and, and I know that you've gone through this journey as well, so it's, it's lovely to compare notes as much as anything else.

Thanks very much. So much. Great advice delivered by Frida in today's episode of the Yoga Dent podcast. I think the thing that stands out for me is the important importance of balance. Too much of one thing is just not good for you. If you want to get some balance in your life and need some help with that, head to bravingboundaries.com and take the three day challenge to bring balance to your personal and professional life. And while you're cruising around on the Internet, head to ryanspenceyoga.com to find out more about me and to get access to the newsletter to hear about what's going on in the show and exclusive access and events that are coming up. But for now, as always, all that's left to say is eat plants, give thanks, do yoga, peace.