Hazel Bober - Planet, Purpose, Yoga

All the things that we want to do in terms of our wellness, our connection with nature, activities like yoga. I mean, in a dying world, there's no place for yoga.

Welcome to the Yoga Den. Are you a stressed out cog in the corporate wheel? Do you find yourself asking, what am I doing and why am I doing it? Then the Yoga Den is the place for you. I'm your host, Ryan Spence, AKA the big law, dropout, writer, yoga teacher, and your guide on the path to wellness. Being through yoga, yoga helped me find my purpose, change my mindset and my life. And in this podcast, I'll share how to live a life of intention. No reaction. Each week I'll be talking to a variety of guests, recovering pearls of wisdom to help you figure out where you're heading to, where you really want to go. I won't find your purpose for you, but I'll help you plan the route. So sit back and grab a drink. I've been expecting you. Hello and welcome to episode seven of the Yoga Den podcast. This week's guest, Hazel Bober, is a teacher, a mother and an environmental activist. Oh, and she also happens to be my wife. From a young age, social justice has guided Hazel in the decisions that she's made, leading her to spend most of her working life in either the public or the charity sector. Although Hazel had a short stint in the corporate world, she quickly realized that the role that she was in did not fully align with her values. And it's at that point she decided to leave and retrain as a teacher. Originally from London, Hazel has been in Singapore for close to seven years now, and in the last couple of years has become heavily involved as a volunteer in an organisation here called Climate Conversations. The organisation aims to get people talking about and taking action against climate breakdown. And it's a subject that Hazel is very passionate about. In this interview, we talk about climate breakdown, how it relates to yoga and how without a planet, finding your purpose or practicing yoga means nothing. So be prepared for some deep climate chat and also a bit of marital verbal jousting. Sit back, grab a drink and let's do this. Hey, Hazel, welcome to the Yoga Den. How's it going?

Hi, Ryan Spence. Good, thanks.

So, to kick off, like a few of my previous guests, got quite an international outlook. Although you're a Londoner by birth, you've kind of lived in various places around the world. Do you want to tell the listeners a bit about that?

Oh, okay, sure. So, yeah, I'm from London. I've lived in Germany and France as part of my degree and then after I graduated I lived in Guadeloupe in the Caribbean for a year and then in Senegal for a year where I was teaching English and then back to the UK for a few years and then here to Singapore.

So quite a range of places there and having been to all those places, obviously various languages. You speak a few languages too, right?

I speak German and French. Yep. We'll say, like I can get by in Spanish. Yeah. And I know sort of survival language in a few other languages.

So it's safe to say you've got a keen interest not just in languages but in different cultures around the world as well. You can see yourself quite a, I don't know, a worldly person. Is that even a term?

I don't know if I'd say, oh, I'm a worldly person, but I'm certainly interested in different languages and different cultures.

Cool. So I guess with that international outlook that sort of took you to work for. You said you used to work for the British Council, so in the public sector, and I think after that you were in the charity sector as well. And then you went and you took your first corporate job. What was behind your decision to step away from public service? And, and how do you compare your experience in public sector and in the corporate world?

So I, as you said, like most of the work I've done has been in the public sector. And then I found out about a job working for the architect Norman Foster as his private PA because he needed someone who was a French speaker. So I was just interested in that job. Like a French speaking PA for an architect sounded quite exciting. So I went and did that for six months. What made me move away from it, to be honest, I found that it wasn't a particularly creative job. It was just kind of reacting to faxes and emails and, and things like that. So no opportunity to be creative and yeah, I just didn't want to carry on doing that. I didn't feel it was really what I wanted to do with my career and with my life.

And what would you say were the noticeable differences between your public and charity sector work and the corporate world? I mean there's, there's obviously quite big differences in terms of the resources available, the reasons for doing the work that you're doing. How did you find the difference and did that, would you say that that influenced your decision as well?

The difference in the resources?

Not just the resources, but also in, in the reasons for doing what you're doing? I mean, one of the things that we Sort of talk about on the podcast and with some of the other guests is sometimes you don't feel like you have meaning in what you're doing. And for a lot of people that's quite important. And it's not to say that being in the corporate world is meaningless by any stretch of the imagination. Different people have different drivers for doing what they do. So I guess I was just wondering if that also contributed to your, your not falling in love with, with your corporate role or whether there are the factors involved.

I think for me the biggest factor was that I've always wanted to do something that contributes to social justice. And in that role I wasn't doing that. So that's probably the main reason for me leaving my job with Norman Foster, even though it was in some ways exciting. Quite a lot of travel and the pay was good. But I've never been hugely motivated to earn a lot of money. Not if it means doing something that's not really in line with my values.

Yeah, I think that's the key point you hit on there, is in line with your values. Money is great, we all need it. If you can have the money and the values tied together, then that's a perfect storm. But I think very, very few people have that. But to go back to what you said about social justice, your dad's quite politically active and your upbringing, I guess you were around a lot of people who were within various social justice movements. How much would you say that that's influenced your decision in terms of the jobs that you've done and also the values that you have?

Yeah, it's true that my dad has always been very involved in social justice and things like local political campaigning. And I was brought up with that. You know, I was always kind of just aware of what was going on politically in the uk, I guess from an early age from my dad's involvement. So I'd say that probably, yeah, working towards a fairer society in a fairer world is a value that I was brought up with. And you know, of course we, as we go through our teenage years and emerge in adulthood, we question our parents values. But I certainly think that that's been an influence on me. And answer your question.

Yeah, that, that answers. I think we're all colored by our upbringing in some way, whether for good or bad. It's just interesting to sort of hear how much people are influence and also how much of that they carry through with them. Because obviously we don't have to be our parents. We grow and we evolved and we sort of form, our own views. But if we, if we take some of those values through then obviously they resonated with us from a very young age. So from the world of architecture and normal foster, what was your next move after that?

I did my pgce which is a teacher training qualification to qualify as a secondary school teacher teaching foreign languages, so French and German.

So carrying the social justice strand through, going back into the public sector, teaching young people. So it kind of looks then like the stop off in the corporate world is a little bit of a, of a blip in terms of the short time you were there. I think you said six months compared to the time you been in other roles and in and around the sort of public sector. Do you think the corporate world is ever something that you return to? Is there a clear demarcation between what you want to do and don't want to do or is it if the right role came up in that world you wouldn't be adverse to it?

I don't see myself going back to work in the corporate world. I wouldn't rule it out but when I think about, you know, the type of work, the type of career I'd like to have or where I'd like my career to continue to, I don't imagine myself like naturally I don't imagine myself in the corporate world.

Why is that would you say? I mean there's been a lot of talk over the last few years. A lot of businesses have sort of got their own corporate social responsibility policies. Their trying to do things that are in a way that's better and fairer for all. So I guess my question is that you could still work in line with your values and be within certain organizations or do you think that the two just aren't compatible?

I feel like you're, you're trying to get me to rage against the corporate world. Right?

I just want to. Yeah, we just want to know the answer. We just want to know what you think.

I mean, look, I'm a teacher and despite the fact that it's a really challenging job with long hours and can be totally exhausting, it's a great job. So I imagine that I may continue as a teacher or I might branch out into an area that involves education. Like working with young people is really exciting. There are never two days that are the same. It's never dull. You literally never get bored. I can say that in teaching. So since I became a teacher, I think I'm trying to think how many years ago, seven years ago I qualified and I have never Had a dull day at work. So look, you know, if the corporate world can offer me something as exciting, maybe I just, like, I haven't considered it.

There's a resounding advertisement there for, for teaching. So anyone who's out there thinking, I don't know what to do next, maybe have a look into that based on Hazel's endorsement. But I'm going to stick with this point probably for one more question. Even within teaching, you can still be on either side of the fence. So you can teach and using the UK terminology, you can teach in the, in the public sector or in the private sector. So fee paying schools or non, non fee paying schools? In both instances, you're, you're still obviously teaching children, you're still influencing them, you're still imparting them with the benefit of your knowledge to send them out into the world to be good citizens. Does your, not rejection but reticence to, to sort of step foot back in the corporate world, does that also stretch to fee paying schools as well?

Interesting question. Well, let me start off by saying that since I've lived in Singapore, I've worked in two international schools which are obviously fee paying schools, and both of those schools have provided really sort of enriching and interesting career experiences for me. I feel that in the uk, I would prefer, I don't imagine myself working private schools in the UK because I'd say that overall the private school system in the UK contributes to social injustice and the vast, vast, vast majority of children in the UK go to comprehensive schools and need good and committed teachers who, who are there for them, who show up for them every day. So therefore, sort of taking that idea of social justice, I can use my skills better to contribute to social justice by working in the comprehensive system. Although, you know, it's got to be said that it's really, really tough at the moment. And I know so many colleagues and people I trained with, my PGCE who have left the profession since we qualified.

Okay, so I think a pretty, pretty resounding answer there and some good points made and it's clear that, you know, as we would say in the uk, social justice runs through you like it runs through a stick of rock. So we're gonna come back to social justice via yoga. So I understand you have a little bit of a, of a practice. Tell us about your yoga journey. What brought you to your first class? And was it something that you fell in love with straight away?

I'm like, I know this is a yoga podcast, but why are you asking me about Yoga. As you know, Ryan, I come to your classes to support you and because I do enjoy it. And then, you know, I often ask when we can do the pose where we just lie down, which is my favorite.

Yes, you're, you're not the, like I case you're not the best at following instructions. And, and yeah, it's a challenging student, shall we say?

No, I, I've actually been doing yoga on and off probably for 15 years. I know it's good for me. I know that, that flexibility is important, but I actually find it really challenging. I find it physically challenging and I find it challenging to stay focused and not to let my mind wander all over the place.

That means it's working. That's what yoga is about. Yeah, I mean, flexible. I mean, yeah, people have heard us discuss this on the show before and no doubt we discuss it again, but is the key one that always comes up flexibility. I'm not flexible enough to do yoga. And I guess the response is one that's not really the point. And if your mind is open, then you're flexible enough because it is as much about the mind as it is about, about the body. But, but yeah, I think having, having a practice, and obviously I say this, however, however sort of intense it is or disciplined it is, having some sort of practice is, it is definitely great for, for well being. But why I asked you about yoga. Yes, it is a yoga podcast in, in a sense, and yoga is the foundation. But it was more because I wanted to kind of branch out a little bit into what the listeners might think about when they think about yoga. So I'm not sure if you're familiar and how many of the listeners are, but within yoga you'll hear people talk about there being eight limbs, eight limbs of yoga. And within those eight limbs, one of them is what's called the yamas, so which governs our individual relationship with the external world. And then within the yamas, there's a number of strands, one of which is ahimsa, which depending on who you speak to, means nonviolence or is also interpreted as compassion. And there's a widespread debate about that interpretation. You mean, does it mean that if you practice yoga you shouldn't eat animals? You know, I mean, you should be vegan. All of a deep worthwhile discussion worth having in connection with what non harming actually means. But what I want to sort of look at that concept with, in connection with is the climate crisis. In my research for the podcast, I came across a quote which is yoga is the practice of union, of understanding and feeling, our interconnectedness with each other and with nature. Ahimsa, or non harming is an important principle of yoga philosophy. And in terms of climate change, it is a call to action. Now you're active in the environmental movement and you volunteer at an environmental organization here in Singapore. I know you're quite passionate about climate change, climate emergency, environmental issues, and that all hangs very neatly with your core values of social justice and fairness. Tell us a bit about your work within the.

Within the movement here in Singapore. I volunteer as a facilitator for an organization called Climate Conversations. And what we do is organize conversations for groups of friends, usually small groups, usually about eight to 12 people, to discuss the climate crisis, how it affects us directly and the solutions. So I've been doing that for about two years now. I got involved because a friend brought me along to a climate conversation at somebody's house. She said, oh, you know, I've been invited to this climate conversation to discuss the climate emergency and sounds like the sort of thing you'd be interested to. To come along to. Do you want to come? I was really pleased to be asked because I've always been environmentally minded. My stepmom's German, so she brought us up kind of to be quite mindful about things like not using plastic and bringing a cotton bag to be considerate in our gestures towards the environment. But reading the news, I was becoming aware that the climate emergency is becoming more and more urgent. And then being a mum myself, like, at the time of having my children, that was probably a moment of awakening for me in terms of thinking about what their future is going to look like in the climate emergency. So I started to worry more and I was doing things like using reusable nappies, but thinking this is not quite going to cut it, like this is not quite enough action given the dire state of circumstances, the dire circumstances we find ourselves in. So when my friend Zara brought me along to a climate conversation, as I listened and participated in the discussion, I really fell in love with that model for sharing ideas and the hope and the solutions that were out there. And so I became more involved with climate conversations and became a facilitator myself. And I been doing that for, yeah, two years now. And apart from, you know, being a cause that I'm really passionate about and helping me to find my voice and find my place in the environmental movement, I'd also like to say that it's been really fun and a really sociable experience and being involved in a Singaporean Climate organization has given me a lot of insight into Singapore that I wouldn't have had otherwise.

Okay. And so would you call yourself a climate activist?

Yes. Yes, I would. And I think, you know, we all need to be climate activists.

You made my mind. That's going to be my next question. Yeah. Because I think that when. When you say something like climate activist for some people, that conjures up images of people, I don't know, chaining themselves or sticking themselves to. To buildings or railings or of certain organizations which they may consider extreme. As we've just touched on that, what would you say to people who. Because one of the common things that you sometimes hear is that, well, I agree. I agree with the sentiment. I don't agree with the process or with the actions. Sometimes people think that, well, if people didn't do things that were so extreme, it would be easier to get their message across and they would bring more people along with them. What's your opinion of that?

Okay. Although that's not the type of action that I'm involved with in Singapore, I think the, you know, people who engage in that form of protest are absolute heroes, and I think we should be applauding them. I think anyone who says it's extreme doesn't have a good enough knowledge of these absolute dire state that our planet finds itself in. I mean, you know, we need a response at that level in response to what's going on. If we think about what we've seen this year, just taking this year, there's been fires of absolutely unprecedented levels in Australia, in the US In Thailand, we've had record temperatures recorded in the Arctic Circle, 38 degrees. We've had huge, like, vast ice shelves breaking off. The future's looking extremely unsafe for our families. And so I think that the level of response, the actions that you describe are totally appropriate.

Okay. And that leads me onto my next point. So we had a couple of heated discussions regarding your appearance on the show and whether you mean your story, the story that you had to tell and wanted to tell, was in line and would chime with what the listeners were expecting to get from the podcast, you're here. So obviously we reached a landing on that. And for the benefit of the listeners, why, for someone who is questioning what they're doing and why they're doing it, who maybe isn't happy with their current position, maybe not happy with their. With their job, is trying to find some purpose, why should the issue of climate change or the climate emergency be important to them?

Okay, big question, Ryan.

Any do Big questions.

So in terms of your listeners, people who are interested in yoga, I'm sure that your listeners being interested in yoga, are also interested in wellness, in well being, in good mental health, in nature. And all of this is under threat because of the climate crisis. Things like our ability to exercise outdoors as pollution levels rise is under threat. Our ability to have good mental health is completely under threat because of the climate crisis. You know, the climate crisis can make our world so economically unstable that we, we don't have the finances for these recreational activities. So all the things that we want to do in terms of our wellness, our connection with nature, activities like yoga, I mean, in a dying world, there's no place for yoga. Is there time?

Yes. Quite scary words, but yeah, I guess it's true. But even not just for yoga, I mean, I know some, some of the listeners may practice yoga, some may not, and some may just be interested in the personal development message that people are delivering, that guests are delivering. But I guess then what you're saying is that we all should be concerned and it should be important to all of us because if we don't take it seriously, we don't take it on board, none of the things that are important to us will exist. You say it's as dire as that?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, through engaging with the environmental movement, I've had to really face some truths that are uncomfortable, that are depressing. But the way I see it, my understanding is that we are on the brink of total collapse of human civilization. Right. That's something that we can expect possibly within our own lifetime, certainly within our children and grandchildren's lifetime. So with it, we can expect economic instability, mass involuntary migration, global conflict, war, famine, crop failure on a kind of global level. So, you know, personally, I have to really engage with those things in order to imagine a better world. I think. Yeah, we do need to sort of face up to how dire the climate emergency is.

Well, that's a pretty bleak picture that's been painted there. And I'd like to play devil's advocate for a second, but without. It's obviously a big subject and we could quite easily go down the rabbit hole here and get into lots of detail, but I think it would be remiss of me to sort of not ask the question. There are people who believe, or at least say publicly that this isn't happening, that it's all, it's all natural, it's how the world is supposed to be, and that people who, who are sort of sharing this message of a bleak world that you've just portrayed, it's not actually rooted in any sort of fact. What would be your response to that, briefly? We'll try not to get too political here, but yeah, I mean, that is what some people are saying. People, people like you and me who are just normal, everyday people on the street are saying this. So, yeah. What would your message be to those people?

To be honest, Ryan, I really try not to engage with climate science deniers. I mean, climate scientists are really unanimous in their assessment of the situation and how dire it is. Not only that, but we have the evidence right in front of our eyes, you know, of, of, of what is being done to our planet. Like I said, you know, the things I mentioned earlier about the fires that we've seen just in this year, the record temperatures recorded, you know, in various places all over the world. It seems like every year we record new record temperatures. So I feel that I, I don't have time to engage with climate science.

Deniers, which is a stance that, that one can take. But again, plain devil's advocate. Again, the counter argument to that would be, but if you don't engage, then how do you, how do you get people the information that they need and how do you get them to change their mind? Or by not engaging, how does that help the situation?

I mean, I feel that my role is not to have those arguments with those individuals because my role in the climate movement is something else. But, you know, as I explained at the moment, I facilitate, so guide people's discussion of the climate crisis and guide groups of friends in an evening where they work through that and discover solutions together. And, you know, perhaps in, in the future my role will be something else. But, you know, we all have our roles to play and I don't see my role as arguing with climate science.

Deniers so emphatically there. But yeah, I think you're right. I mean, we can't do everything and we can't be all things to all people. So if we sort of choose our position, sometimes it's better to choose that position and be very good at that position rather than trying to play all positions. A little bit of a sports analogy there. So what we. Well, step back a little bit. For a lot of people, the question is, yeah, I'm one person, what can I do? I mean, whatever I do is insignificant. So I'll just continue doing what I'm doing and not really think about it, which is a valid argument. I mean, this problem, like many problems in the world, is sort of so vast that trying to Sort of get your head around what they are and how to solve them or how to have an impact can be quite overwhelming. But if you were to give three steps, three achievable steps that everyone should be taking in relation to this, what would they be?

Okay, that is. It's a difficult question. We always get this question in our climate conversations. But the question of, what is it? Like, what is it that I can do? And the answer to that is that there are different things that you can do. And also, you know, with your podcast, having an international audience.

I like that.

Say that again with your podcast having an international audience.

Thank you.

We all find ourselves. Yeah. In different countries, different parts of the world, with different. Different movements, different environmental groups. But one thing that. That I've learned is that we do need to shift our thinking away from those individual actions, which is not to say that they're not important. Like, yes, we should still carry on taking our cotton bag to the shop. You know, all the other sort of good things that you're doing for the environment, trying to reduce the amount of packaging you use. That's great. You know, trying to make sure you recycle as well as possible. That's wonderful. And we should carry on doing these things, but we. We need to think about taking actions that contribute to systemic change.

Such as?

Such as we need to look at those systems that are killing our planet. So the activities that are killing our planet are the burning of fossil fuels, deforestation, industrial animal agriculture, and we need to use our voice as citizens and as consumers to stop those activities.

Okay, but again, if you're listening and you might think, okay, I kind of get that, but. But what does that actually mean, tangibly for me as a person who's listening to this podcast, when the podcast ends and they take off their headphones or get up from wherever they're sitting, what should they be thinking about? What sort of three tangible things should they put on their list that. That makes them think, if I don't do anything else, these are three things that I should be doing or I want to be doing going forward? So you talked about, for example, using your voice. I mean, you talked about deforestation. Like, we understand what they mean, but how does that translate into the action that we can take that, however small, will have some impact on moving the needle?

Okay, so an example of a concrete action that you can take, I would think, anywhere in the world, is to speak to your bank and find out whether they are funding coal power plants and what their policy is on funding coal. That's a tangible thing that you can do. Make your voice heard. Consider moving your. Your money.

Okay, that's a good one. People like to hear about money.

Yeah. Okay. I would also suggest that wherever you are, you look at, you know what, environmental organizations exist so that you can get involved. Yeah. In something that's already in place. Definitely. We need environmental action to be collective rather than individual.

Okay, that's 2.

2. 1. More like 1. One takeaway point that I like to say in our conversations is that basically you need to do something, you need to start doing it now, and you need to start talking about it. So actually, talking is a really, really important part of environmental action.

Okay. So just to recap on those, speak to your bank. Have a sense as to what they're investing in, what they're funding, and if they're in, if they're funding. I guess if they're funding things that are harmful to the environment, maybe ask them to stop or move your money. I guess that could go for any organization then where you. Where you spend your money, Right?

Absolutely.

Yeah. Get involved in environmental organizations, whether they be the big global ones or on the local level, and talk and I guess talk to just sharing what you know. Really?

Yeah. Can I talk a little bit more about talking?

Of course.

This is a podcast, so I think that quite often people avoid talking about the climate crisis because it's scary, it's uncomfortable. It doesn't like in a lot of circles, make good dinner time chat. You know, people worry, worry, worry, but don't talk. And I think we need to totally reverse that. I think we need to be bringing this topic to the dinner table. And I just want to make a parallel a bit with Black Lives Matter because I know that, like in my social circles, Black Lives Matter movement has led to many of my good friends kind of really tackling the question of how do we talk about race with our children? Like, how do we have those conversations about race around the dinner table so that we can raise children who are aware of standing up to racial injustice? So I would say that, like, within my social circles, it's gone from being something all race, you know, a bit uncomfortable to talk about with kids, to being something that is talked about in, in family homes. And so I think that that realization that we don't solve a problem by just kind of brushing it under the carpet. I would love to see the same. Well, of course this is already happening. Right. But. But we need more of it. I would love to see this, this idea, this notion picking up in relation to the climate emergency.

Yeah. I think 2020 taught us anything. It's been a year of having difficult conversations. There's been a lot of big issues this year, not necessarily new issues, but I think for various reasons, this year has put the spotlight on many of them, taken them to a wider group of people. I mean, you mentioned obviously Black Lives Matter, which is one which again, it's centuries old in terms of the issues that it's fighting against. You mean the climate crisis? Do you say climate crisis or climate change or climate emergency? I know there's, there's, there's different schools of thought on that.

Personally, I use the word climate crisis or climate emergency. Yeah.

Why is that?

I think climate change is. It's not. It doesn't communicate the urgency enough. Climate change. Change. Change is a nice word. Right. Change is positive. Like we need to, in my view, use language that reflects the total state of urgency that we find ourselves in. So I talk about climate breakdown. Yeah. And the climate crisis or the climate emergency rather than climate change.

So it's clear that the words matter. Something which, as a writer, I'm always conscious of, is that the way that you say something can influence the way that somebody perceives it or interprets it. So thinking carefully about the words that you choose.

Yep. And on that note, like, I think, you know, something I'm conscious of doing is to make sure that when we talk about climate breakdown, like, we reference it as something that is going on now, not something to be expected in the future, but climate breakdown is, is real and it's, it's happening all around us right now.

So it's not somebody else's problem. It's. It's all of our problems.

Definitely. I mean, yes, that's something that I've become aware of more sort of through my involvement with climate conversations. And in our conversations, it's quite powerful to see people move into that realization that the climate crisis isn't just something that will affect other people in other countries, the less fortunate. Like, it will actually affect everyone in the, the room directly and your family.

So it's clear, obviously, that you're very passionate and feel very strongly about this as an issue. And from what you're saying, we all should share that. How, if at all, would you say that your own life, your day to day, has changed since your involvement with climate conversations?

How has my day to day changed or your life?

Is there anything which you think, I do this now or I don't do this now? And the reason is because of what I know what I've learned through this situation. Or do you think you would be the person you are and where you are now even without having been involved in the movement?

The biggest change is that I talk about the climate crisis all the time. Like, you know, I think some people find it quite tiring. I know that. Yeah, I don't kind of hesitate to bring it in, you know, into conversations when, when it's relevant or even when it's not. But it's always relevant. There's always a relevance. Yeah, because, you know, in, in all the conversations that we have, all the things that we care about, everything that we value, the leisure activities that we value, you know, discussions about social justice and equality and rights of minority groups, the climate crisis is relevant. So, yes, I talk a lot.

Yes. Well, I can attest that living with you, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's good to have debate, to get issues out there and to hear different schools of thought. Most definitely. So do you think, in a related question, do you think your values have changed since you've been working with climate conversations in any way? Do you think you've acquired new values or do you just think it's enhanced what you already had? I mean, we already started and it's continued as a theme through the show, that social justice is something that runs through you and runs deep. But beyond that, do you think that there's been any additional change in your values?

Not so much a change, but more of a linking up. I mean, yeah, as we said, I've always valued social justice, but now I'm acutely aware of how social justice and the climate crisis or how climate justice and social justice are inextricably linked. So, yeah, that's like the, the change in my thinking. Yes.

Okay. And so one of the things that I wanted to do with this podcast is, and as I say in the intro, is get on a variety of guests who, who've got interesting stories to tell about how they've. There's obviously they've made a change and they're now living or intentionally trying to live a life that's more in. Align with their, with their values and with their purpose, with the, with a goal eventually to help the listeners out there who probably are struggling and are questioning where they are helping them to, to find their purpose. It's clear you have a lot of passion in, in what you're doing now. Would you say that you have found your purpose? And if so, how would you define it?

Definitely. I found my role here in Singapore in the Climate movement. And I'm, you know, I'm really grateful to have found that and grateful to the wonderful colleagues I have at Climate Conversations who've contributed to developing my thinking and to me being involved in, in climate justice. Sorry, I've sort of forgotten the other bit of the question where I was meant to be going with that.

Yeah, it's more just a question of would you say you found your purpose? And one of the reasons I asked that is not because I necessarily expect that everyone will say, yep, this is my purpose, and be able to define it off pat, because purpose is quite broad, it can change, it can evolve. But why I'm so passionate about people finding their purpose is that once you know where you're going, it makes it a lot easier to get on the path to get there. So each day, if you're taking a step, you ensure that you're taking a step closer to where it is that you want to be. If you don't know where you want to be, and for a long time I didn't really, and some of the listeners don't either, then you're just reacting to situations. There's no intention in what you're doing. You're just getting up each day and reacting to the situation that's in front of you that appears, and that's how you then wake up in sort of 10, 15 years time and just wonder how you ended up, because it wasn't the life that you envisioned for yourself. So that's kind of a long winded way of sort of asking, do you have a purpose? What is it that sort of drives you to move forward each day?

Do I have a purpose?

Yeah, what is your purpose? I mean, is it, is it saving the world? I mean, you can use. Because that, Is it making more people aware of the, of the urgency of the climate situation? Is it? Yeah, because as I say, it's clear that there's a, there's a passion for social justice which, as you say, is inextricably linked to sort of climate, climate emergency and climate breakdown. All of those things are in strictly linked. That's always kind of run through you. So. But would you say that that's, would you say that that's your purpose? Would you say that that's what you're trying to every day take steps towards?

I mean, I would say I'm aware that we're in an absolutely pivotal time in terms of like, human history and in terms of our ability to survive as a species. So because of this precarious environmental situation, that we find ourselves in. I do feel driven to play whatever role I can in fighting for climate justice because it's the right thing to do, you know, and also as a mother, of course, I'm thinking about the future of my children. So does that answer your question?

Yeah, because what it says is that you have an intention. So it's about living a life of intention, not reaction. So you're intentionally trying to sort of live each day to sort of solve and to highlight those issues. You know, you're taking steps each day to make people aware of. I mean, so that can be your purpose. Your purpose can be just making everybody aware of the urgency of the situation and encouraging them to do something about it, to take steps to sort of rectify it.

Yeah, I mean, but like, everyone, right? I mean, I have that passion and that sense of purpose, but also I have a job, I have two kids, and, you know, sometimes I just want to lie on the sofa and watch Netflix and eat chocolate. Right. It's not. It's not like all I do all day is campaign for environmental justice.

I think anybody who did that, it's.

Important to say that.

Yeah, I think anyone who did that would burn that very quickly. No, it's about micro steps. It's about taking a small step each day. I think not to take. Not taking a small step each day because you have to feel that you're productive, but taking a small step each day because you're moving towards something that. That you really want and that is important to you. And as I say, that's going to be different for everybody. But I think if you've got that, then you just. It's just knowing why you get up every morning, right?

Yeah.

If you get up every morning because you want to make a lot of money to go and buy that big house on the beach, that's your purpose. That's fine. No one's judging you for that. But then you know that you're shutting out anything that isn't. Isn't taking you towards that purpose. And I guess what I'm saying is that for a lot of us and me included in the past, you haven't really. You're kind of just going with flow. You're just kind of rolling along. But what that ends up doing is taking you somewhere where you probably don't want to go. So, yeah, it wasn't a trick question. It wasn't sort of asking if you had some sort of big grand plan or anything like that. It was more just a case of kind of. Yeah. I guess a straightforward way is just kind of what gets you up in the morning and kind of what are you trying to achieve?

Yeah, well, my kids bouncing on the bed is usually what gets me up in the morning.

Yes. Wow. So, yeah, it's been a lot of interesting chat about, about social justice, about the climate emergency interweaved with, with your purpose and what drives you. It's been interesting because it's, it's obviously a slightly different story to some of the, the other guests that we've had. For a lot of people who have spent, spent a long time in the corporate world, you know, I mean, who end up with sort of the burnout and the stress and the anxiety. I think you managed to avoid that with, with only a short stint. You still have similar issues in sort of the public sector, I'm sure, but it seems you found your thing now that sort of drives you and gets you going and you're passionate about. So yeah, I guess anyone who's listening can hear that passion come through and can take something away from that to kind of help them figure out what it is that that drives them and gets them up each morning as well. So as we sort of moving towards the, the end of today's chat, change tax slightly. One thing I like to, to ask my guests, and obviously it's going to be a little bit weird asking you for obvious reasons, but do you have a, do you have a morning routine or maybe the right question to ask is what would you like your morning routine to be?

Oh, yeah, no, it is a funny question because obviously as your wife, I know that you have quite a sacred morning routine involving yoga and meditation, whereas mine is just kind of, you know, dealing with kids and dealing with shit and kids screaming and plates flying across the room. I don't know, it's been so long that I, you know, haven't considered like what my ideal morning would be.

So many parents out there can relate.

Yeah, my. It's more like a strategy of just trying to like stay calm and get everyone out to school school and you know, have a shower and look respectable and get to work. That is my morning routine. Ryan Spence.

Okay. It's good. Keeping it real. I like it. If you, what three tips of or pieces of advice would you give to anyone listening who's trying to figure out their purpose?

Three tips.

Yeah. Well, it doesn't have to be three. If you, if you don't have three, that's fine. But, but I like to ask this question because it's obviously clear that you've found yours. Although we obviously talked about for a little bit and you, you found it quite sort of difficult to sort of define and didn't want to put a label on it. It's quite clear just from the way that you talk about what is that you do that, that you found yours. It's what lights you up. So anyone who, who doesn't have anything like that, who just feels like they're sort of stuck in that sort of day to day, do you have, do you have anything share with them, even just one.

I mean, I remember reading a book which I can't remember what it was called, but in my 20s which said that in order to find fulfilling work, you should ask yourself the question, how do my skills meet the needs of the world?

That's deep.

Yeah, I mean, I think that that's a nice one. Right? How do my skills meet the needs of the world? So perhaps that's, you know, a good question for your listeners. And then, yeah, if this episode has kind of inspired people want to be more active in terms of environmental action, I'd really urge and warmly encourage you to find your role in the climate movement. As I said, I do know that lots of people are extremely worried about the climate crisis, but your role, I would say, you know, your role is not to worry and hope that it will go away. I bet you've got a better role to play than that. And yeah, in terms of what you can do, you should start doing something. Start doing it now and start talking about it.

Oh, that's good. I like that. Say that again. Start doing.

Start doing something. Start doing it now and start talking about it.

Great. We'll definitely put that quote in the show notes for people to keep referring back to. I haven't read it myself. I've obviously heard bits about it from you and seen the odd extract and I can imagine how much of an impact that would make on anyone reading it. A familiar one again, favorite yoga pose and why?

Oh, Ryan, you know it's Shavasana, as I regularly squawk in your class. When's the pose where we can lie down on the floor?

Yeah, that is definitely true. I think we have probably three guests now for Shavasana at the time of recording. So yeah, a popular one. Be interesting to keep a tally as we go ahead and see if anything overtakes it. And the only other one so far is child's pose that Kim said in the. In the previous episode or the one before.

Sign me up for the class where we just lie in Shavasana.

Well, there's actually. I don't know if you're aware or if the listeners are aware that there's actually a style of yoga called Yoga Nidra, which I've had the pleasure of doing once on. On a retreat, and it is sometimes referred to as yoga sleep. So it's not quite just Shavasana for the whole class, but there are lots of props, blankets and blocks and bolsters to kind of get you relaxed. I actually have a friend of mine back in the UK who teaches, so anyone who's interested, who's in London, drop me a line and I'll direct you in her direction. Yoga class. And this is an interesting one because we had this a couple of weeks ago in my class. Music or no music.

Music. I love it. I've done classes of music both with you and with other teachers. And because I have a mind that is very busy, I find that music really helps me to focus on the yoga because then I've just got the movement and the music and my mind wanders less.

Yes, I prefer to teach without music. But you complained royally prior to the class a couple of weeks ago, so put on music for that class. I mean, at the end of the day, it is about the students. It's not about me as the teacher. So. Yeah, it's just when you're. When your wife is the one doing the complaining.

I know, but what's the point of being married to the yoga teacher if you can't complain throughout his class, eh?

Not quite the way I look at it, but yeah, let's move on swiftly. Controversial one here. Vegan or vegetarian?

Oh, Ryan. So some background on this is that I've been vegetarian for several years and Ryan was a committed carnivore who went vegan overnight. So my brain is still recalibrating. I'm vegetarian, but mostly vegan, as we eat vegan meals at home. For sure, vegan is better in terms of the environment and in terms of animal welfare. I just haven't made it my kind of actual way of living yet.

That's fine. I mean, I don't. I don't lord it over. I think I just find it funny that you get quite annoyed that I have, in your words, gone one better than you having been a committed carnival for all these years.

Yeah, exactly. And this is, you know, the person who said to me once when I said there's stir fry with tofu for dinner, you said, and what have I ever done to you to deserve that? So let it be known.

Yeah. What an obnoxious person that one was. I believe it's also the same person who used to request that a warning was given if there was gonna be no meat for dinner.

That is it.

But yeah, look, we all, we all grow and evolve. If you'd like to know a little bit more about that whole journey, I'll drop a link to the article that I wrote about it in the the Show Notes. Audible or Netflix?

Netflix.

I thought so after the. The Netflix and Chocolate reference. And that brings us to the end of the Quick Fire this week. So in closing, what do you have, if anything, coming up soon or in the new feature that you. You'd like to share the listeners coming.

Up in the near future? Well, planning to relocate back to the uk, although, you know, feeling quite nervous about it for various reasons. So my plan is to make the most of the remaining time I have here in Singapore and then relocate as a family and support my kids through that and then become part of a new community and see what's going on there in terms of environmental action. And that's what I've got coming up in the future.

Okay. I should say that, yeah, I am also involved in that plan. So I guess it's what, it's what we've got coming up. But yeah. And where can people find out more about you and. Or Climate Conversations and the work that you do?

I don't have a particular online presence, unlike you, Ryan.

Oh, strange. Interesting.

But for people who'd like to know more about Climate Conversations, then you can find us easily online. Yeah, you can just look us up online and find us and then you can look at ways, if you're in Singapore, consider, you know, how you can get involved or support us. We're also really grateful for donations that support our work.

Cool. And we'll get a link to Climate Conversations website and social media handles and we'll place those in the show notes as well. So if you want to find out more about them, just go and check out those notes. Okay. So we come to the end of today's conversation. It's been great. It's been an interesting dynamic, but yeah, I hope it's been. I think it's been a good one for the listeners. I think there's been a lot of good things for them to take away, both in terms of purpose, in terms of learning more about the climate emergency and what they can do about that and just generally getting a, getting a feel for an understanding of the various social justice steps that they can take and how that can sort of help you figure out your purpose. So thanks for coming on the show, Hazel.

Thank you for having me. Bye.

Sobering words there from today's guest, Hazel Bober. All the things that we want, that we're searching for, that we're trying to achieve, could be nothing without a planet to live on. Let me know what resonated with you from today's episode and what you'll be implementing in your life to push things forward. You can drop me a line at the Yoga denpodcast and also Ryan Spenceyoga, both on Instagram, and you can check out the website ryanspenceyoga.com if you've enjoyed the show. Don't forget to subscribe. Leave a review on Apple Podcast, but until next week, all's left to say eat plants, give thanks, do yoga, peace.