Kim Katre - Leaving Law, Finding Yoga

You know, I think real life is that, you know, we do have to work hard and the reality is now with international firms that you can literally pick up the phone to different jurisdictions all the way through the day, all the way through the night, and there really is no off button. And particularly, you know, in light of everything going on now with home based working and accessibility to emails and zoom calls and whatever it is, you can't, you can't really get away. But yeah, I absolutely encourage people to just put a pause and take a step back and just ask, you know, if this is where they want to be.

Welcome to the Yoga Den.

Are you a stressed out cog in the corporate wheel? Do you find yourself asking what am.

I doing and why am I doing it?

Then the Yoga Den is the place for you. I'm your host, Ryan Spence, AKA the Big Law dropout, writer, yoga teacher, and your guide on the path to well being through yoga. Yoga helped me find my purpose, change my mindset and my life. And in this podcast, I'll share how to live a life of intention. No reaction. Each week I'll be talking to a variety of guests, uncovering pearls of wisdom.

To help you figure out where you're heading. It's where you really want to go. I'll.

I won't find your purpose for you, but I'll help you plan the route. So sit back and grab a drink.

I've been expecting you.

Hello and welcome to episode five of the Yoga Den podcast. This week I'm joined by fellow Big Law dropout, Kim Catray. Kim is an ex Big Law lawyer who, like myself, has worked in both London and and in Singapore where she's now based. Now a yoga teacher and founder of Together Yoga, SG Kim has a regular schedule of classes at one of the.

Studios here in Singapore where she's built up quite a following.

I really love this conversation. It was great to go back and.

Forth with somebody on the issues around.

Big Law, but I think that anyone out there will really get a lot.

From this because the issues are universal.

We talk about things such as the.

Lack of autonomy in Big Law, the.

Stress and anxiety, and how that led Kim to yoga and about connecting with your inner child. There's also a little story about how a partner effectively tried to cancel Christmas.

But Kim said no.

So sit down, go grab yourself a drink and let's do this. Okay. Kim, welcome. Welcome to the Yoga Den.

Thank you. Thanks, Ryan. It's great to be here.

Hi Gain.

Stay.

Yeah, I'm doing actually really good. I just went to my first yoga class since Circuit Breaker for myself. So I'm feeling very good, very relaxed and.

Yeah, excellent. Yeah, it's. I was just saying it's quite difficult to get into a class at the moment with the restrictions. But yeah, even when you're a teacher yourself, you practice yourself at home sometimes just going to a class. It's quite nice.

It is, yeah. It's nice to be back in the studio environment. And I think that thankfully in Singapore, places are opening up and there's enough mats for everyone to kind of come back into the studio. So they're still offering the kind of zoom, you know, online stuff. But it is nice to be back with real people.

Yes. In real life. No more virtual.

Yes.

Cool. So what's interesting is we. We've both made the switch from. From big law to. To yoga and in fact, we were. We were in the same building for a period of time in our respective firms. What. How long were you a lawyer for and how long has it been since you. Since you escaped?

So I was a yoga. See, there you go. I just can't even get yoga off the brain. I was a lawyer for about six years. That was in between Singapore and London, so. Same as you. And I decided to leave the law when I became pregnant with my sons, I was having twins and I just kind of felt like it was a natural break in life to just take some time to, you know, to raise a family. And so that was four years ago. My boys just turned four in July. So, yeah, six years in the law and four years out. A decade in all.

Wow. Yeah, some time. I think I was. I think I did about 11. So, yeah, about half the amount of time is.

Yeah. Yeah.

Wow. So twin boys. That's. That's a handful.

Yeah, it is. You know, it's. It's amazing. There's never a dull moment. It's. It's very special and, you know, I'm very grateful that I have the time to spend with the boys and, you know, obviously full credit to people that carry on working in big law whilst, you know, continuing to have young children. And my husband is also a lawyer. We actually met at our law firm. So for me it was both parents having that role, you know, in work and then being able to be there at home and that. That's kind of what made me make the choice of leaving. But obviously it was. It was triggered by a lot of other things as well.

Yes, I guess it is. I mean, for a lot of people who leave the law, there might be sort of a headline reason, but there was definitely the environment and the culture, which is something that I want to touch on. Did you know when you left that you'd be leaving? I guess for good? I mean, things can always change. And did you know what she wanted to do instead?

I think at the time, no. My focus was very much on, you know, the boys and just that kind of personal life stuff. And I mean, even as you say nothing's permanent, and I can't honestly say now that I won't go back to it. And I don't think I would go back to the type of law that I did before, you know, working in the, the law firm structure. But you know, I'm always keeping options and is open for opportunities. Um, but no, I, I didn't know at the time. I didn't have a clear direction. Um, I, I try to now. I strive to have a clear direction. Um, but it's, I wouldn't want to say that it's kind of the end, you know, and that, that's something that I'd never want to go back to. I mean, obviously I have a huge respect for the industry and I worked very hard to get to where I was in that role. You know, it was a lot of years of education, a lot of money, a lot of time, a lot of effort. So, you know, obviously you want to live your life kind of being able to honor that at the same time as just trying to make the right decisions for your personal life as well. So it's all a big kind of balancing act, isn't it?

Yeah, balance is definitely a big thing. And as you said there, yeah, you spend a lot of time working, working towards getting into firm, getting into the right firm for you and progressing. And you know, there's good things about being there. But as you touched on earlier, there are certainly issues that can affect your well being and also affect your view as to what you thought you were getting into. Do you want to expand a little bit more on that?

Yeah, I mean, I think that the way that the, you know, the traditional law firm operates, especially when you're operating at the top level, you know, you're talking about the, the top five to 10 law firms in the world. And there is a certain expectation and that expectation obviously comes through the fact that clients are paying big bucks. So they expect you to give everything and obviously, you know, the pressure directly comes down from the clients to the partners and it, and it feeds down obviously, you know, to the senior associates, the associates, the juniors, the trainees. So when you're kind of at the bottom of that pile, it's very hard to see the bigger picture. You don't even know the bigger picture. You know, you don't know what the areas are that we're kind of focusing on as a firm. And so I think that you. You can feel a little bit lost. And I think like anything in life, if you want to be at the top of your game, you've got to work hard, you know, you have to. So it's not so much about the having to work hard and having to put in the hard graph because you know, you have to if you want to, to be successful and to get somewhere. And the more you put in, the more you put out with anything. But I think that the way that it kind of flows down the structure to the junior years, it kind of results in just a complete lack of autonomy, a lack of feeling like you have any control over your direction. And that's very unsettling when you've worked extremely hard to get to where you are at that point and you feel a bit lost. But, but you're working, you know, you're working your ass off. You're not sleeping, you're not exercising, you've got no time for your friends, you're having to cancel dinners, holidays. That's just normal, you know, that's what people do. And it almost comes with a little bit of like a medal if you do that. Like, oh, did you hear? You know, that so and so didn't end up taking their paternity leave. You know, it's almost like a badge of honor and that. I think when I got to that point, I think it was one year at Christmas. I was in Singapore and, you know, away from family, and Christmas is, you know, big deal back home. And I was trying to make it as much to feel like being at home whilst I was in Singapore. And I've been working so hard over November and December on, you know, a number of deals, and they finally closed on the 23rd of December, and I was so happy, you know, I'm going to go and do all my Christmas shopping. I'm going to go and see my friends and this. And then the partner came in and said, you know, look, I've got a new deal for you. It's closing on the 31st. And, you know, I literally threw my toys out of the pram. And I wouldn't say that I'm massively proud of the way that I reacted, but I was tired. You know, I was really, really looking forward to just having some time to myself. And I, I just had to say no, I can't, I can't do that. But there are so many people in the industry that don't say no and they just feel like they can't. And you know, obviously it affected me. I think it affected my, the grade I was given for that year. But for me, I, I, for me, the bigger picture was it was Christmas, I'd worked hard for the year and I needed that. But, you know, just, just circumstances like that coming and going and that, yeah, that for me is something that certainly makes it an extremely challenging place to work. But I wouldn't in any one way want to bring down the industry or the people that are still there. You know, it's just, is there a way to kind of make it more beneficial, more, more positive for the people that are working really hard?

I think you've painted a picture there that many, many people can relate to so many things to unpack out of that. And I think the first thing that stands out for me is when you mentioned autonomy, because that's immediately what came to my mind. Having control over your life, over your being, is so important. And when you don't have that and you don't have that for a consistent period of time, it's obviously, obviously going to affect you. Because then work does become all encompassing because you kind of feel like you have to do what's being asked, which then goes on to what you were saying. I mean, the fact that you could turn around and could say no is fantastic because a lot of people don't. But then, as you said, the knock on from that is that it affects you. It affects the grade you get in your appraisal or affects your promotion. So that's always in the back of your mind when people are saying to you from outside of the law, I would just say no, just say, I mean, you can't or you're not well or whatever. But that's always the thing, is that what if I want to progress? And the thing is, because you're so inside that bubble and I found this, is that you think that progressing is kind of what you have to do because you're there. That's kind of what you've done all the work for. And you don't really have any alternatives in mind because you don't even have the time to explore those alternatives because you're just in this bubble with everybody else and everybody thinks that that's what you should do. And so I think when you Said, he's right. It's not that law in and of itself is an awful career, not at all. And we've all been there. We're all very ambitious people. We all want to work hard and do a good job. But the model of big law, is it really compatible with the way the world is now and the way that people want to work and the things that we know, particularly around physical and mental health?

Yeah, I mean, it's also interesting thinking about it from the, the older generations perspective, you know, the kind of traditional. You get a job, you stay in that job for, for 40 years and you just kind of get on with it, you know, And I think that there are people that say, oh, what a shame, you know, all that work and you've just left and could you not have just like seen it through and you would have got promoted and things will get easier as you get higher up. And that's true. I mean, obviously you're going to get more autonomy as you work your way up the ranks. But the question is, at what cost in those years, in those prime years, you know, not just of your life, but in perhaps your children's lives, which for me was very key. I want to be there now. That's my choice as well. I'm not saying that everyone should feel the same. If you want to put your career first, and that is essentially, you know, your baby, then absolutely do it. I mean, you meet some people and they just love it and you can't really judge them. But it's the people that feel that lack of autonomy, like they are missing out on key parts of life, key moments, and that feeling of, am I going to look back and regret not leaving. And I guess that's like anything in life, isn't it? You don't want to look back with regrets. But it does come back to the point that it's a balance. It's always a balance. I mean, you're going to have busy periods at work and that's fine. You know, I wouldn't have thrown my toys out of the pram if I hadn't have been worked so hard up to that point. You know, literally was the straw that broke the camel's back. So, you know, I think real life is that, you know, we do have to work hard. And the reality is now with international firms, that you can literally pick up the phone to different jurisdictions all the way through the day, all the way through the night, and there really is no off button. And particularly, you know, in light of everything going on now, with home based working and accessibility to emails and zoom calls and whatever it is, you can't, you can't really get away. But yeah, I absolutely encourage people to just put a pause and take a step back and just ask, you know, if this is where they want to be and if it's making them happy and if it is amazing, you know, I'd be so happy for the person that finds that kind of fulfillment. But if it's not, to just have the confidence in yourself and hopefully to know that you'd be supported by the people around you to make the changes that you need to.

Yeah, and I think that's so true. I remember when I kind of first started thinking about this podcast and I spoke to a couple of people and someone has said, well, not everyone can give up a well paid career to go off and be a yoga teacher. And it's like, that's kind of not the point. That's not what I'm trying to get to. It's trying to get to what you just said. It's you, you get onto this train and you just kind of like cruising along, you know, I mean, each year you're a year more qualified, you get paid a little bit more, you're a little bit more senior. And then before you know it, five years have gone by, six years have gone by. And it's just taking those periodic moments out. And I always, always used to say this to junior lawyers who came to speak to me, is every year, every sort of year, sort of a couple of times a year, just take a step back and just think, am I enjoying this? Is this where I want to be? Is it taking me where I want to get to?

And that, and that's, that's really all.

That, that you want people to do. Because if you know that this is what you want to do, then one, you can work accordingly to kind of like keep you on the path that you want. But also you can also think strategically about how you can kind of take a little bit more control of your direction as opposed to just kind of being dragged along by, I mean, whichever sort of deal comes in at one time or whichever partner wants you to do whatever. So it's that intention, I think, which is, which is key.

Yeah. And it might be the case that, that you say, look, you know, I'm not happy where I am, but I. It's about exactly taking control of the situation and saying, well, I'd like to do more deals in that area, or I'd like to work more with this partner or, you know, it would mean a lot to me if the hours could just be slightly shifted around like this and having the confidence to speak to your, you know, the partner and, or the senior in your team and say that. Because at the end of the day we can't all point fingers, you know, it's your fault that I was unhappy. Well, we have to take responsibility for ourselves and absolutely, if you can find a direction in the law, you know, that keeps you happy, which is something that I still believe I might find. You know, I have visions of working perhaps more in an in house type role for a company that I, you know, I truly believe in the ethos of, but helping them with, with legal functions because that's my background, that's my training, that's my education, you know, and I think the, the perfect job is out there for everyone but no one's going to come and serve it to you on a plate. You've really got to delve deep and kind of learn about what makes you happy.

Yeah, yeah, you've got to, you've got to do the work.

Absolutely.

And I'm going to come back to, to law a little bit later because I really want to talk a bit about corporate wellness. There's been a couple of things that have come up this week which, which have been quite interesting. But before we, we do that, let's, let's, let's go to, to the yoga. So what's your, what's your yoga journey? What brought you to your first class?

Stress at work.

Oh, a common, common answer.

Yeah. You know, I was working in Singapore and I just really needed something to release the stress and the anxiety that I felt. And so I started going to some, some yoga classes and I remember how tough it was. Oh, I remember that feeling where you're just like, and you're looking at the other people in the cast thinking, how are you doing that? You look like a pretzel. Like I can't even, you know, get like a quarter of the way there. Oh yes, but I loved it. I loved the way that I felt after every class. I really looked up to the teachers when I left and I think after having the boys, it's really how I re found my fitness and my strength. I started going back to yoga classes after having the twins and just, just loved it. I absolutely loved it. You know, every single class I just come out and feel like I was just floating. And when we moved to Singapore, so we kind of ping ponged from Singapore to London, then London back to Singapore Three years ago now I just thought, okay, well this is an opportunity to see where, where I can take this interest and this passion. Obviously I would have loved to have gone and done a teacher training in India for three weeks.

Yeah.

You know, maybe 10 years ago, but you know, having the boys and having to work around that, I found a, a teacher training program in Singapore that I could do pretty much in working hours. So I, I opted in to, to do that and absolutely loved it obviously and have been teaching for, for two years since then. Yeah.

And for those, for those who are in Singapore, where, where did you do your training and who was your, who was your teacher?

As I did my training with Yoga Lab and they were. My main teachers were Jasmine Chung. Yep. And Betty.

Okay. I'm sure we can, we can find out. It's always hard to remember names. Yeah. Similar to you. I mean, I did my teacher training in Singapore and I would have loved to go off to Bali and you know, I mean, really immerse myself. But yeah, even without that, just you're still particular if you're doing the full time training. You're still within that yoga bubble even if you're not kind of away from your home space and you, yeah, you, you get so, so much out of it. One thing about, when you're talking about your, your first yoga class, it's funny, I was speaking to, to another yoga teacher this week as well and she said something similar and I was like, yeah, there's this common theme of people who are experienced practitioners or yoga teachers, they always seem to have hated their first few classes and you're like, why.

Why, why did you teach?

Why did you keep going and kind of keep pushing through and pushing through and. Yeah.

Yeah, I, I don't know. I, I see. It's just that memory of that first class and, and just really feeling like you, you came through, you know, you survived, you made it and it's a nice feeling. And I think as well that the reason that I enjoy the teaching so much now is I love seeing that accomplishment for other people. You know, the people that are still in these jobs or, you know, they've got young kids or they're just so busy or maybe dealing with, you know, a lot of stuff, personal issues. And they come to class and you just feel like you can give them what that teacher gave to you. And it's amazing. You know, you can't beat that feeling of just making somebody's day better. It's great. Yeah.

Yeah. When you, when you see students coming and maybe They're a little bit frazzled from work or whatever. And then they go through the sequence on the mat. There's the moments in the mount when you know that inside they're sort of swearing at you because it's really challenging. And then you open. They open their eyes at the end after, After a decent Shavasana, and they just look so, so relaxed, so calm and kind of float out of the room. I mean, as a teacher, that's. That's pretty amazing.

It is. And, you know, I was speaking to a student yesterday who said. I think I'd said something at the beginning of the class, like, you know, just, just stop and check in with where your mind is at this moment. And she just said. She just never does that. Yeah, she just never thinks to even do that. And then having Shavasana, I mean, what other activity is that? You know, be at work or exercise or, you know, even like going out and watching a film where you just say, okay, that was great. I'm now just going to sit, I'm going to just close my eyes and I'm going to just relax, restore, and really process that whole experience. Nothing, you know, not even a top football game at the end where the players are absolutely, you know, they've killed themselves. Do they get the opportunity to just relax, recover, restore? And you know, yoga is something very special. And then it just gives people that. That space and that time.

Yeah, it's kind of like it gives you permission because life is sort of lived at such high speeds and we have all the distractions and, you know, I mean, even now, sort of working at home and notionally, people are taking things a little bit slower because they don't have to commute, but you're kind of always on because technology kind of allows that to happen. So, yeah, when you go to a yoga class, it is a different experience almost to. To any sort of fitness class, because, yeah, if you've got the right teacher, they will say things like what you just said, like checking with your mind or focus on your breath, Things which to us as teachers are quite instinctive. But having come from the corporate world, you know that in the corporate world you probably weren't thinking that because you're always in that sort of permanent state of stress because you're busy, you haven't eaten, you haven't slept. I mean, you're sort of trying to get everything perfect. So giving people the permission to take that time to sort of look inwards and to sort of take care of themselves really is really valuable.

Yeah, Absolutely. I think, you know, people just take breath for granted. Like, you know, well, that just happens automatically. I don't need to think about that. I need to think about what calls I need to be on. I need to think about what documents I need to update. I need to think about, you know, what meetings I've got. I don't have time to think about my breath, you know, but you should, you really should, because it doesn't take long even, you know, just finding like a five minutes out of a day to meditate. And you can even do it at your desk. And my goodness, do you feel a difference? Just closing your eyes and focusing on your breath for five minutes? You don't even have to do a yoga class.

Yep.

And your mind is almost like a filing cabinet. It just suddenly sorts everything out and you open the eyes and feel so much clearer and more focused. Yeah, it's.

Yeah, the breath. I mean, as always say, I mean, everything starts and ends with the breath. You know, it's. It is a thing which we take for granted because you just wake up in your breathing. Right. You're asleep in your breathing. But how often do we take the time to actually just think about how magical that is and how important that is and how we can control that? And it comes back to that point about intention. It's just taking those few moments to be intentional in how you inhale and how you exhale and how your body feels when you do that. What changes happen? Um, and so even people who think that, oh, well, I mean, I can't meditate, my mind's too busy, or, I mean, I can't do yoga, I'm not flexible enough. If you can start with breathing, then that will kind of take you down that path. You'll start to sort of see, okay, this is how I can feel. This is how I meant to feel. Supposed to have that balance. I'm not supposed to be in that high stress state all the time.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And like anything, you know, it's practice. Yeah. You start. I think when I first started trying meditation, you know, I'd set the alarm for two minutes and then three, and then four, and then five. And then I think during my teacher training, I was up to about 20 minutes. And I'm saying, like, you're not thinking of anything. Yeah, you are. Just purely in that kind of empty, amazing space. But then, you know, you don't do it for a month and suddenly you're back to two minutes again. And it's like anything, you know, it's like running, you know, you can down sit. Oh, I used to be able to do, you know, 12K, no problems. But you, if you take some time off or you have an injury and which you could compare to a bit of busy period at work, then you go back and you, you know, you build it up again and that's fine, like, so everyone can, can definitely do it and start from somewhere. Yeah.

And I think for particular people, people in big law like we were, and people in sort of high powered corporate jobs, that, that's the thing. You're conditioned to be good at everything. I mean, like that. And so when you sort of sit down for that first time and you're not great, or you go into that first yoga class and you're not as good in inverted commas as everybody else, there's a tendency to think, well, this isn't for me, I'm going to go back to what I normally do, whether it is running or whether it's playing football or whatever. But that consistency is, as you say, is what's important. And the thing about yoga, it's a journey and you never, you're never perfect. And that's the beauty. You're always learning more, you're always looking inwards and finding out more about yourself and the world around you. So it's approaching it, it's reframing it and approaching it in that manner and then you can then start to see the benefits of that.

Absolutely. I mean, you know, just don't bother about the people on the mat next to you, like, certainly feel their energy and, you know, and you're kind of moving together and that's special. But one of the big things that I think people just have to kind of get over is that. And then at the end of the day, it is about your ego. You know, it's, am I better than that person or are they better than me? And you're, you know, you're automatically bringing that kind of stress into the yoga. And so, yeah, trying to just distill that and say, actually this isn't about that person, this is about me. And this is like, you say, it's my journey.

Yep, yeah, exactly. So you've been teaching for around two years.

Yeah.

Do you remember teaching your first class? What was it like?

So after the teacher training. Yes, I do, I do remember because one of the, my favorite yoga instructors actually came and I was like, no, why?

Wow, that's intimidating.

Why? And it was a full class. I think there were about 25 people or something. And, and I remember Just being so stressed that I'm gonna forget the sequence. That, that was my big worry was like, I'm gonna forget, I'm gonna forget. But you know, it's like anything I did it and it, you know, wasn't perfect, but I was pretty proud of myself. And the great thing is that although it was awful that my teacher was there doing the class at the end, he could give me some really, really helpful, constructive feedback and you grow with it. You know, again, like anything very much the teaching is very much like your yoga practice. And the more you do it, suddenly you realize actually you don't even need to have a sequence plan. Sometimes you go in and you just kind of feel what people want and what they need or you have a talk to people and depending on injuries, the class might take a completely different direction to what you planned. So, so yeah, if I, if I look back to that class, I've come on a, a long way since then and I'm, yeah, I'm very grateful for having the, the opportunity to teach so much over the past two years. Yeah, it's, it's been, it's been busy. You know, I sometimes look at the calendar and I think, you know, God, that's, that's a lot, you know, especially if you're, you're teaching kind of any powerful or vinyasa type yoga styles you want to obviously be demoing. So, you know, your body is physically doing these, these movements every day. But I have to say that even if at the start of the morning, you know, when I'm up and it's dark and because somebody wants a session before they start work and I think I'm feeling a bit tired and you know, I've got so much in the diary and every time I finish the class I just think that was amazing. I love it. I love it.

Yeah.

And I never expected that because you hear a lot about yoga teachers and burnout and as you say, because you're doing a lot of classes and you're told it takes on your body. But the times when I've been really tired and I'm going to teach a class, I'm like, I'm so tired, I'm not sure if I can do this. Yeah, you say without a doubt. Every single time at the end, I feel more energized and it's that the energy from the students in the room, not necessarily lots of people, but it's just, just the energy that they're giving off. And the fact that you're, you're holding Space to allow these people that time and that permission, as we said before, to just, to just be, be with themselves and be present. It really. Yeah, it really gives you a lot.

Yeah. And I think you're probably more in line with where their mental state is. You know, the reason they're coming to yoga is because they are tired and they've got loads on and they just need some time to themselves. And actually those can be the classes, you know, where, where you feel the least planned and, you know, you feel the most tired, where you really do connect with the students. Because the truth is that's how most people feel most of the time.

Exactly, exactly. Particular people that come from our former world. So. Yeah, so you, you set up a company together, Yoga sg, which is, which is, is good and different in the fact that for a lot of, a lot of yogis, yoga practitioners tend to use their name and you haven't done that. What was the story behind the name and what would you say is the ethos behind behind the company?

So the company kind of came about through my work with the National Arthritis Foundation. So I started working with that charity and it's one of the oldest charities in Singapore. So, yeah, they really needed a corporate name. They didn't just want a yoga teacher's name. So it was something quite as simple as that in terms of choosing the name. I mean, I think yoga just brings people together in any scenario, you know, whether, and certainly through Circuit Breaker, doing the classes via Zoom and just seeing the connection that it was able to build between people in different countries on different time zones. You know, I just, I just love that feeling of togetherness. And, and even if you're practicing by yourself, you still feel that kind of presence. You just feel like a deeper meaning. And you know, I think the, the Sanskrit meaning of the word yoga is, you know, to bind, to yoke, to, to unionize, which is very much about bringing things together. So, you know, for me it's, it's quite an important word. My mum hated it because she said together yoga. She's an English teacher and she said together yoga. It doesn't actually make grammatical sense. I was like, never mind that. So, you know, but now I, and I love playing with words as well. And I've just finished my prenatal, postnatal and kids yoga teacher training and I was just looking at the word the other day and I was like, oh, it actually says to get her. And I was like, right, okay, I got to do something with that. So, yeah, but it came about from A very simple reason of just having to have a corporate name in order to do work with the charity.

Okay, and how was, how was your work with the charity? I mean, you're obviously used to teaching your traditional studio classes. What was different about teaching with the charity? And what did you get out of that?

Yeah, so the charity were amazing. They actually created a studio type room in the event hall. And so, you know, they bought all the yoga mats and the straps and the blocks, and then members of the charity were invited to come and, and try yoga out. And, you know, it could be for people that had arthritis, whether it was rheumatoid or osteo, or just people that were generally maybe family members of those or people that had a general connection with the charity. So, yeah, I worked very closely with them up until circuit breaker, to be honest. And then when that happened, you know, they obviously have people that are, you know, high risk. And so, so we're not continuing the in person classes at this present moment. But, you know, the time that I, I had with them was very special. And they would always invite me to these, you know, big functions because obviously the charity world in Singapore, you know, is amazing. It's a very dynamic and open community. And I got to kind of go to lots of trainings on different types of arthritis, different types of, you know, stretching and joint movements that you can do to try and, you know, ease the burden on the person that has it.

Okay. And you'd mentioned earlier that you had just finished your, your prenatal and your, your kids yoga. What, what made you want to do those additional trainings?

I think that the. I've, I knew that I wanted to obviously continue to learn and, and to develop my skills within yoga and, and I'd done kind of the, the odd training here and there, as I say, on kind of anatomy and, and joints. And I mean, honestly, I think the, the circuit breaker happened and it was like, right, okay, I keep saying I'm gonna do some more training, but now I really have no excuse. Um, and to me, you know, prenatal really resonates. Obviously not just because I've been pregnant and, but I just think it's like an incredible journey. And it's also a time that people can feel quite stressed, you know, and anxious and apprehensive, and there's a lot of changes going on in the body. And so, so to try and make that experience for the women, you know, as, as positive and if they can come out with this, you know, this deep connection with their baby, Even before they've met them. And obviously, you know, using the breath, you can go into kind of how to use that during labor even. So, you know, it's a really interesting. And that kind of led naturally to the postnatal stuff because, you know, they say like what is technically a postnatal body and well, you've always got it, you know, after you've had that child. That's it. And you speak to women and it's, you know, hips, back issues, SPD shoulders from just, you know, breastfeeding on one side and aches and pains in the neck and they just kind of accept that that's normal.

Yeah.

And they just say, you know, I'm really inflexible, I can't do yoga. So it's really lovely to kind of have a space for, for those women and to really focus on the parts of the body that, you know, they just, they need that, that attention. Yeah.

Yes. It sounds like there's a real focus on, on healing as well. I think a lot of folks is put on, on yoga as, I don't know, as fitness or this sort of glamorous thing that only certain people can do. But actually the benefits are universal and it can very much be a healing process for a lot of people. Yeah.

And, and also I think that, you know, people think prenatal yoga, like, they almost think of it like it must be a type of yin, you know, very. And it is, it'. It's relaxing, but also it is hard work. I mean, you are building up the leg muscles in the women so that they can withstand the weight, so that they stop shifting weight into their toes because that's what causes all the issues, you know, when, when the belly's growing and then the back starts to get weak and then that's really where it all spurs on from. So you, it's hard work. I invite people to come to a prenatal yoga class and they will be shocked because it's a lot of standing poses, it's a lot of hip openers, it's a lot of chest openers. And, and I think that's great. You know, as you say, it's not about fitness, but certainly functional movement and trying to make sure that, you know, risk of injury or risk of long term issues for people is just, you know, it's, it's not as present and hopefully just means that people can move more freely and not have these aches and pains so much.

Yeah. I had a conversation with another guest earlier this week who is also very much focused on the post and prenatal path. And an interesting point that she made is that women have been giving birth for thousands of years and it's just a natural thing that they do. But in the western world, they're treated very much as being very delicate, very medicalized. It's like, okay, you're pregnant, you shouldn't do this, you shouldn't do that. But actually, I mean, you can be at your strongest at that point if you're just given the sort of the space and the direction, the freedom to, to do that.

Exactly, exactly. It should be a very empowering experience. Unfortunately, it's not for a lot of women, you know, especially that the actual birth as well, you know, it should be as empowering as possible. It shouldn't feel like a medical procedure. Obviously, sometimes, you know, it is and it has to be. But either even within that, you know, comes back to the kind of autonomy point that you just want to feel in control at that moment. And, and a lot of the time, yeah, that, that kind of, that strength and that power is taken away. So, so yoga is a nice way to kind of try and give that back.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, perfectly. With your kids yoga, do you, do you teach your boys yoga and how do they, how do they take it?

Yeah, they're amazing. I mean, the thing I love about kids yoga is that you can plan anything but you have no idea what's going to happen. You just don't know. And, and you need to have, you know, backup, backup, backup, backup plans. Just in terms of the way that the, the kids, that, the direction that it's going and, but, but they come up with the most amazing things, you know, things that you hadn't even imagined and the different names for shapes or, you know, actually this looks like a giraffe, you know. Exactly. It's very enlightening. And then it kind of brings you back to the playfulness that yoga should be experienced in. You know, again, when you get onto your mat, if you're looking at the person next to you, a child doesn't do that, you know, that they get onto their mat and, and they move however they want to, what, however they feel like it. And they're not worried about the judgments from others and, and that's extremely, you know, amazing to be around. And so, yeah, I, I do teach the boys. I tried a couple of weeks ago for the first time and you know, it's not easy. They're, they're four, they're two, four year olds. Like they don't follow instructions all the time and as I say, things take it a different direction sometimes, but a lot of the time that's about me, you know, learning to go with the flow. So they, they'd probably teach me more. And so, yeah, it's a, it's a very interesting and new area. I love coming up with the themes for the classes, like, you know, underwater theme or going on a trip to the zoo or stuff like this. There's lots of things to play around with and, and, you know, the mental health of kids. I think a lot of the time people think, well, kids don't get stressed. How can they. They experience stress the same way that adults do. So, you know, they, they need this time. School is hard and this, all this virus stuff, you know, the kids are just hearing that word being thrown around and wash your hands and wear your mask and, you know, be careful of the virus. And that takes its toll. Um, so I think that the, you know, the meditation time and the breathing for children is, is just as important. You know, they, they really do need that time as much as adults do.

Oh, yeah, definitely. I just started my ki Jaka training as well and for similar reasons. I have two boys as well. Three. Three and nearly three and five. And yeah, this whole period you, you, you hear so much about the mental health of, of children. And I think the yoga is a great tool for helping them build confidence, the resilience and that. I say just moving freely in their body because you look at children move and I mean, they, they don't care. They just do what they feel at any given time. And at some point we seem to lose that. And one of the things I'm trying to encourage people is to kind of look back, look at your inner child. I mean, so leave the inhibitions behind, leave the limitations behind and think about when you were a child, like, what did you want to do? How did you want to be and try and explore that other than confining yourself to, oh, well, I'm a, I'm a corporate lawyer now, so I have to be this way, so. Well, you can be more than one thing, right?

Absolutely. Yeah. Just let go of those roles and the way that you perceive your. Your kind of role in life and just be a bit free, have a bit of fun. Absolutely. You know, happy baby pose. Perfect example because, you know, you do just feel like a child as soon as you're there and you're going to roc. People just naturally kind of rock from side to side and it's such a fun movement and it's Something that you would never do, you know, adult. Well, could you imagine in the corporate office if somebody got down and you know, if you don't know what happy baby pose is, go and Google it now because you can imagine, you know, the partner just, you know, it's just a ridiculous image, but it's so freeing when, when you have the, the time to. The space to do that and it's, and it's okay. And you can connect with that inner child. It's great.

Yeah.

Picturing now.

I, I am, I'm imagining it now. Yeah. I mean, I was fortunate that for a period of time I had my, had my own office so I could just shut the door. So I wouldn't quite get to happy baby, but I would get into child's pose sometimes just to kind of like work it out. But yeah, you can sort of see though, you're sort of there. And because I, I've walked into someone's office once before. They weren't doing yoga, but they were kind of just laid on their back on the floor like the worst. They were asleep. They were just really tired and I thought that was a bit odd, so. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

It could have been a Shavasana, actually. Didn't want to ask. So one thing which is, I guess it's not really a recent thing. There's always a back and forth. And as I've spoken with a couple of people about it this week, I'd be interested to get your take is yoga teachers and social media and how as yoga teachers we use social media, how active we are and what we do on there. What's, what's your view? You're not someone who is literally posting photos every day of fantastic poses on the beach or anything. So is that a deliberate thing or.

Do you have a. I don't know. I, I guess I'm in the, the same space as everyone right now with, with social media. It's great. It's an, it's an amazingly powerful tool and, and you know, then that can't be denied in terms of being able to reach out and communicate with people. But I very much put more emphasis on my real person interactions. And so it's not something that I prioritize. I think I've read a lot about, you know, people becoming a little bit wrapped up in the, you know, the post likes or the, the analytics of it all. And I just don't really want to go down that route. But at the same time, it's probably to my detriment. You know, I could Certainly market more. I think not many people know about what I do and the different types of yoga that I do. I very much rely on word of mouth at this present time. But I also feel a little bit like, you know, I, I want to learn a bit more and kind of develop myself a bit more before I start, really. You know, I guess if you don't have a clear direction or have something that's really important for you to say, then then don't say it, you know, and that, that can be quite. I think there's this expectation to, you know, post every day or, you know, say, say something. And sometimes it's a bit like, but did you, did it have real meaning behind it? And if it does, you know, absolutely. Share it, spread it and connect with people and that's great, but if you feel a kind of obligation to do it, it's not coming from the right place. And so, yeah, that's my kind of feel on social media, but I'm probably a bit outdated, you know, I probably need to sort my, my skill that was out in that area.

So, look, I've been, I've been muddling myself through, through Instagram since, since April, and looking back, there's definitely some real howlers of mistakes I've made there, which are elementary mistakes. But, but I think you're right. It's, it's a balance and it's, it's difficult because on, on the one hand, you're, you're a yoga teacher and you're, you're sort of want, you want to help. That's what you want to do. You're out there trying to help and to hold space for people to kind of get through them through whatever they want to get through. But in order to help, people need to know who you are and that you exist and what you do.

Yeah.

And so how do you do that? Yeah, and definitely in the, in the beginning, for me, as I say, I started, I think I started my Instagram account a while ago, but I only really started using it, a new yoga account, in April.

Yeah.

And I was kind of reading all this thing about marketing and branding and yeah, you've got to do this. What about the algorithm? And you have to sort of post every day and you have to do this, you have to do that. And then I had to take a step back and say, but that's. Yeah, like you say, that's kind of not what I want to do. Yeah, I have things to say and I want to say them, but I want to say them When I feel that I want to say them.

Yeah.

Because I feel I have to keep up with this constant churn of information.

I mean, if your aim is to become an Instagram influencer, then absolutely, you know, and again, it's very much like, well, if that's your aim, if that's your purpose, then then do the hard graft and, you know, and you'll get the results. But, you know, if that's not the direction that is important to you, then then don't feel that, that pressure. And I think things tend to happen very organically actually. You know, like I say, just through teaching and word of mouth and meeting people and you kind of, you build this community and you know, together yoga, I mean, it started out as me and, and five other teachers. So I had this, this vision of kind of, you know, being able to offer classes with, with different teachers, but didn't kind of take that direction in the end, you know, that the other people had other jobs. There weren't that many classes available with the National Arthritis Foundation. I started teaching with yoga lab, which is where I did my teacher training. So, you know, I was able to, to work and kind of practice my teaching through, through that, which was amazing. So, you know, together yoga is Kim Katrin, essentially, but it's.

Yeah, yeah, okay, that's, that's fine. Looks like everyone, everyone has to do themselves and that's the thing. You have to be authentic. And as you say, if, if you feel like you're like Instagram is, is your thing and you feel that that's where you can be your most authentic self, then that's fine. But it's, it's being there and not sort of looking and doing what everybody else is doing because you feel that that's what you should be doing. Because at the end of the day, you've got to go out there and teach students and you've got to teach from from within yourself, not from, not from people who you've sort of seen on Instagram and you feel that that's what you should be doing.

Exactly. And, and so, so coming back, I lost my train of thought. It happens. But, you know, together, yoga is Kim Catray. That's one person. I can only teach a certain number of classes, so I'm not really in a position to be, you know, marketing in the same way as the big studios here.

Yeah.

So, you know, you have to keep that in mind. I think you have to look after yourself as a yoga teacher as well. You know, I think three, maximum four classes a Day is a lot, especially depending on the type of yoga that you're teaching. And it takes time to prepare these classes, you know, especially if you're working with the same people and you know, there's, they've got injuries or, you know, it's a specialized type of yoga. So, you know, it's not just those four hours of teaching, it's the prep work and, and kind of getting there early and setting up and, you know, having time afterwards to talk to people. So yeah, I think, you know, if you're looking at using Instagram as a way to market, you have to make sure that you've got enough resources to kind of, you know, benefit people.

Yeah.

I have recently applied for a card so that I can get Google reviews. Now, I didn't even know you had to do this, but you have to register your company with Google and then they send you a card in the post.

O yes, Google my business. I think I noticed. Yes. I mentioned that to me a while ago. Yeah.

So I didn't even know. So. And my husband said to me, you should really get people to, to write a review for you on Google. I was like, good idea. I'll just sort that now and then. Of course it's like, oh, it'll take eight to 10 days before I get the link, before I can even set it up. But, you know, but I think it's.

Good, I mean, particularly for you. And I guess the slight difference is that because you are in Singapore, Singapore's relatively small.

Yeah.

You teach, you, you teach regularly, a studio, you've got your, you've got your students, you've got your clients. So you've kind of got what you kind of what you need to a certain extent, as opposed to somebody who maybe doesn't have a regular studio gig or is living somewhere where there aren't that many sort of students around or they're still in a place where there's lockdown and they can't get out and about.

Yeah.

So yeah, again, it comes back to what works for you in the situation that you're in at that given time.

Absolutely. And just not feeling, you know, the pressures of social media. Use it to your advantage. That that's what it's there for. Don't use it to your detriment.

Yeah, no, indeed. You've got to look after your, yourself and yeah. Your own sort of physical and mental health. Which, which brings us on to, to another thing I wanted to talk about. So obviously, as we talked about your former big law lawyer, you're Also married to a lawyer. And so like me, you're keenly aware of the issues that lawyers face, some of which we touched on earlier on in our conversation. What do you think law firms and companies can do to better support, support their employees? Particularly in the current situation where we talked about that. Always being on culture. Even though working from home and not having the commute, there was still this expectation that, you know, you're effectively on call for a lot of people.

Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, corporate wellness programs are great, you know, and they're everywhere and you know, you have the kind of like green mental health awareness week, but it sometimes can feel like it's just a tick in the box and it's a kind of removal of liability. So I guess it's just trying to really, you know, be, be honest as a, as in, you know, a company. Are you really bringing those values down into everyday working life? It's not just about one week, you know, it's every day. And, and so it's finding ways to really give people that support on a, on a daily basis. Now I'm not saying that companies are going to be able to hold everyone's hands and there are going to be late nights, you know, and it goes back to the older generations would say, wow, you know, it's just hard work, get on with it. And, but there was no recognition of mental health, you know, 50 years ago. So I think that, you know, I'm happy that it's something that's out there and it's recognized as extremely important. And I think now it's about trying to translate this kind of wider, wishy washy stuff into actually more applied techniques that, that help people, you know, so just for instance, having a catch up meeting with someone to just see how they're getting on and, and to not actually talk about work, but just to see, you know, what's going on in your life. Because people might have, you know, lost loved ones or especially right now, you know, there's so much going on, so much stress that people are taking on and a lot of the time in the work place you don't feel like it's appropriate to, to talk about that. And so a lot of it's just not even known. And, and if you don't know as a, as a boss, how can you make that person's life better? Because you know, it's the unknown. So it's a, it's definitely a two way street. I think that it is about, you know, companies giving the opportun people to talk about how they're doing, especially if they're not doing okay. But people also have to get better at talking and being honest and just kind of opening up and not seeing that as a weakness.

Yeah, I think that there is definitely that thing of, from people who are more senior that, well, this is how it was for me. And so what are you complaining about? Not necessarily recognizing that times have changed. And there was also the thing where it's been talked about. There's now a conversation which is great, but like with so many things, the conversation is kind of the starting point. The conversation and the sticker and the program, I mean, is all well and good, but is there really that support for it? You know, is somebody who kind of leaves at 6 o' clock to go to a, a yoga class that's paid for by the firm going to be looked at as someone who's not committed to their job? Because that happens. I mean, those conversations are had and it may not be said to, to the individual, but there are definitely people who are kind of keeping that eye out and sort of talking behind your back, you know, and I've seen it. So there needs to be support.

And it works both ways because I think sometimes you have people in managerial positions that would absolutely celebrate that.

Yeah.

But people are worried about how it will be perceived. So I guess it's just about getting a little bit of an open discussion going in terms of, you know, this is okay, but obviously don't take the mick, you know, and that's the other problem that when, when you, when companies start to say, you know, of course we want to support you and if you want to go, you know, to, to a, at an exercise class and take some time for yourself, well, if someone goes off down the pub, you know, for three, four hours and comes back and isn't able to do their job, it's very hard then, you know, to, to find that line. So I think that the more that the actual discussions on a, on a day to day basis, what does it mean to look after your mental health for you? And it's a very personalized approach. You know, what works for one person might not work for another. Like some people work better in the mornings, some people work better at night. So yeah, I think it's, it's about kind of, I think that people in, you know, in the law firm context, in partner roles should probably be aware of on an individual basis how their team are doing at work and outside of work. And I imagine that a lot of the Time, you know, there's a correlation. You know, if someone's having a hard time at home, productivity is going to drop at work and, you know, efficiency is going to come down. And then suddenly, you know, you're being, you got it from both sides. You get a lower grade, you get a lower bonus, you suddenly feel worthless at work, you've got all this stress going on at home. And, and that's really where the, you know, the downward spiral starts to happen and can really have, you know, quite damaging effects on people. So, so just being able to pick up on, hey, you know, I know what's going on, I see you, and I want to help you. That's extremely powerful.

Yeah, it's recognizing the individual as a person and not as a, as a resource. That is someone who has a, who has a life, who has issue, who will have their own issues going on and things they need to deal with at any given time. And it's being empathetic and supportive of that because that's sometimes what people need. I mean, yeah, salary is obviously good and the odd perk here and there is also good. But to feel valued, sometimes that's what people need. Just that sort of like that checking in that, okay, somebody's actually recognizing me as an individual. I'm not just some interchangeable sort of porn in this wheel. And then that, that, that, that will then give you as an individual, the sort of confidence to feel that you can speak up when you have things going on or when things aren't quite right for you or you need some additional support. Whereas at the moment, there's still a lot of fear that. Well, on the one hand, the, the message is, I mean, we're great. We've got this wellness. You can do this, you can do that. But if I actually do that, really, what's going to happen? I mean, how's that going to affect me? How are people going to perceive me? So it's getting to the position where there's that, there's that support from. But there's also that mutual respect and trust.

Yeah, yeah, almost like a training on, you know, how to actually use these opportunities. So, you know, whether it's the wellness through exercise or, I don't know, some people can take, like, career breaks and take time off. And again, some people do that and then they come back and feel like, you know, they've lost in the ranks.

Yeah.

So then they don't do it. So, yeah, I think just having a more open discussion, because there certainly are the tools out there to look after people. It's just making sure that, you know, they're. They're being used in a way that's actually benefiting everyone.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. I'm sure the corporate wellness debate will be rumbling on for a while. What was really interesting is that I shared a meme that I saw on Instagram earlier this week in relation to this, which I just thought was quite funny. I didn't say anything, just said, I'll leave this out there. And I was amazed by the number of people that replied back to me in that story, just either saying, yep, I recognize that, or just with a laughing emoji or whatever. So. So obviously there's a. There is a big thing out there that the employees don't necessarily feel. Always feel that the wellness support that's being offered is necessarily a real offer. Should I say?

Yeah, yeah, it kind of becomes a bit of an elephant in the room. Yeah, yeah.

So the people who are listening in, obviously some of them will be listening and have been in position that you were in, that I was in. Some of them may think that. I mean, I do like being a lawyer, but there's this aspect that I don't or may actually be thinking, well, I don't, but what else can I do? What three sort of tips or pieces of advice would you give as someone who's sort of been in that position?

I think just taking some time to stop, like, really stop and sit back a bit and just see if you. If you're really happy. And then depending on that, you know, the next piece of advice would be, well, if you are, then stay there. But you're going to need to make some changes in terms of, you know, what's stressing you out. But, but if you're really not happy where you are at work, then, you know, obviously you have to do your research and, and you have to see what alternatives there are because, you know, at the end of the day, it sounds great, give up the law and, you know, become a yoga teacher. But it's hard work and, you know, and it's not big money. And, you know, there are some. Some very big realities with that kind of choice. And so sometimes when you get to that junction, you say, well, actually, I prefer the stability and having the direction of the career in law, even though I know that it comes at a sacrifice of maybe being able to do something that I'm passionate with. And, and, yeah, and I guess just, you know, talk to other people. Just. Just talk. Don't. Don't think that you're alone, talk to others, get their feedback, see what they think. You know, a lot of the time it can surprise you how much others can help you when you feel like you're at this junction in life. And it shouldn't be something that's bottled up and seen as a problem. It's just something to kind of sit back, take a look at, assess and see if you want to make a change. And if you do, then make it sound advice.

Yeah. Take a step, have a think and assess the situation. Don't just, don't just kind of rumble along from day to day without any direction because then that's. That is a sure recipe to, to unhappiness and to, and to burn out as well.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

So with your yoga, obviously we talked about you. You kicked off with the National Arthritis foundation. You've now done your post and your prenatal. You're doing kids yoga. Would you say that you found your purpose and, and how would you define that if you have?

Yeah, I think I have. I mean, for me it was about just sharing this love of yoga that, that I found and sharing that with others. And so on a daily basis I get to do that and I get to do that and also just really enjoy it whilst I'm doing it. So, you know, certainly in that sense I feel that I found my purpose. But I think we have a lot of purposes. You know, I just, I don't think there's one single purpose. And, you know, we're all balancing or spinning a lot of plates, whatever the saying is. You know, we've all got a lot going on and I think that you constantly have to reevaluate, you know, what is your purpose. My children are young now, so I want to have time to, to be there for nursery pickup, you know, to, to spend time with them in these years. But as they get older and, you know, and they get their friends and they're going to be busy after school, maybe I want something that, that takes up a little bit more of my time and I might want to go back to something, you know, like law or maybe something different. I guess to say that, you know, you found your purpose and that's. It is just quite a stress in itself. Like, you know, I'm really happy teaching, I'm really happy sharing yoga with others. And for me, that, that is, you know, that's good enough right now. And with each day, yeah, come kind of new challenges and new questions.

But yeah, yeah, I think that, and.

I think you're right. We are always changing and we are always evolving. And if we're not growing, then we're sort of regressing. So you.

You.

It's fine. I think you want to have an idea. I want to have an idea. And even if it's for now, like, okay, this is what I'm working towards for now, but also be flexible enough to adjust and adapt if. If that isn't working for you, if it isn't serving you for whatever situation because circumstances change. I mean, just look at this year, for example. You have all the plans in the world, and, you know, for a lot of people, that's. It's been one of their worst years.

Yeah.

For the people, it's been their best years. And for both sets of people, they may be doing things they didn't think that they would be doing, but, you know, you just adapt to that situation. So I think keeping keeping purpose in mind is helpful. I think that what I struggled with towards my latter days in law was I was to ask myself, kind of, what am I doing? Why am I doing it? Kind of, what is the purpose for what I'm doing? And I couldn't find one when I did find one. In terms of what I'm doing now, I just found that I was a lot more energized. There's a lot more energy, and I had a clear vision of where I wanted to go.

Yeah.

Will that still be my purpose in five years? I don't know. You know, I mean, I don't know where it will take me. But by having a goal now, at least I'm going along the right road, you know, and if there's a turn that says that, that kind of makes sense to me. Take that turn. But.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You know, you want to have direction, but you also want to have the flexibility to, as in yoga, we say, you know, go with the flow.

Yeah.

Because that's something very freeing as well in life, I think. You know, sometimes we can become so pigeonholed and obsessed, you know, with one particular thing, and we kind of miss something. You know, we just miss a moment or we miss an opportunity because we're just so focused. So, you know, again, coming back to balance. But, you know, it is about finding that balance between having direction but also, you know, being you. Recognizing that some things are in your control and some things aren't. For instance. Yes. There's no point in beating yourself up over the things that you can't control and the things that you can control. Yeah. Take responsibility for them and try and find direction. And sometimes it's the things we can't control that change that direction. And that's okay.

Yeah, I think responsibility, you said there is a key one. Because it's like you'd say to students in class, I mean, listen to your body. Take responsibility for yourself. Because at the end of the day, as a teacher, you're there to guide them, but only they know what's going on within themselves and they have to sort of know or. Yeah, take responsibility for how they deal with that. And so it's the same for sort of in life generally. You, rather than putting the onus on everybody else and things aren't working because somebody did this or that, it is taking that responsibility, accepting that the bad things or negative things will happen. But then it's a case of how do you, how do you deal with that? How do you reframe that? How do you, how do you move on from that?

Yeah, and, you know, and as you know, yoga teaches us a lot about how to deal with this stuff. You know, yamas and niyamas and how you deal with things internally, how you deal with the outside world. You know, even just something as simple as just listening. You know, how do you listen to someone? Do you listen, but you're preparing what you're going to say before they've replied. And it's something that everyone does, but, you know, just really, really stopping and listening can, can just have such a huge impact and can make you see so much more. So, yeah, we can all strive to be, you know, perfect. Nobody, nobody is perfect. But yeah, I think that, that yoga really gives a lot of tools for people to, to kind of find direction and also find, you know, flexibility if they need to kind of be open to things being different to how they imagined.

Exactly. It's not about how flexible you are in the body. It's about, yeah, it's about all the other things. It's about using that as your foundation to kind of help you just figure out life, basically.

Exactly.

So coming to the end, but I have a few. I have one more question. Then we have a few. A few quick fires. Is there a quote or any words of wisdom that you, that you sort of live, live by or that you refer to regularly? You can be a famous quote. It can be your own words or just, just any sort of.

Yeah, I, I mean, I really have a big thing about time. I just think that time is so valuable and, you know, and I think I've always had that from, from a young age. So I think that. Just. Just being aware of. Of time and. And how you're spending your time and, you know, if you're. If you're kind of happy within that, and then the other one is just to be happy, so, you know, be happy in the time that you have.

Oh, that's good.

Yeah, it just kind of came.

That's great.

Yeah.

You want to get that on Instagram?

Absolutely. There you go. That's my next place. I'm going to do it tomorrow.

Happy with the time that you have?

Yeah, very.

Perfect. Okay, well, let's go through a few. If you quick fire a little. A little less deep, a little bit of fun to. To sort of end off. So, favorite yoga pose and why.

Oh, okay. I'm going to have to have a think about that. Oh, my God. I love a lot of yoga poses. I. I think I'm going to have to go with child's pose.

Nice.

Yeah, it's just. It's a great way to start a class. It's a great way to end a class. It's a great way to counter pose, a tricky pose. It's a great way to just catch your breath in. It's quite a humbling pose, you know, to be in. And I always find when a cast turns up and, you know, there's different egos going on, and there's some people that are, you know, more progressed in their practice, and you put everyone in child's pose, and it just puts. Brings it all back down to the same level. Yeah.

Yeah. Big fair. Big fan of child's pose. And I'm really pleased that you didn't say Shavasana, because that's what's been said so far, so it's good to have something else.

Yeah. That might have been my second perfect.

Zoom class or live class?

Live. Oh, live. I just love, you know, and I'm very grateful that the Zoom community is still going on. I mean, I teach live classes now at yoga lab, and I have a headset, and we're streaming it live for Zoom people as well. And. And that's great, you know, to see the people there at home. And you say, hey, you know, and you kind of have a quick chat with them, and then you turn and you look at your real people. Hi, guys. I'm so happy to have real people here. You know, the energy, you just can't replace that. Really? Yeah.

Okay.

For books, fiction or nonfiction?

Fiction, yeah.

Any particular one you'd like to recommend?

I'm kind of going through, like, a. A very old kind of classics Style of reading.

Okay.

Right now, influenced by my mum, as I said. Who, of course, teacher. So, yeah, I'm reading David Copperfield right now.

Oh, wow.

Which is really good. I always looked at Charles Dickens and thought, like, oh, my God. You know, like, I think I tried to read Tale of Two Cities, and I was like, no. But it's. Mum kind of said to me that it will resonate a lot with the fact that, you know, having the boys and it's so much about childhood and about his innocence and, you know, I think I'm about halfway through now, but it's. It's a really, really lovely book. And before that, I read the Count of Monte Cristo that I'm very proud of because it's the biggest book I've ever read. And I did it. I got through. Was amazing. It was incredible.

You know, that's fascinating. Yeah, I've seen that. I've seen the film. I think I've read the book once. I've seen the film numerous times.

There was a film?

Yeah. I think if I'm not mistaken, it may have been Guy Pierce, who's in the film, but I can't remember. I'll try and find the link, send it to you. And then I put it in the show notes for anyone who hasn't seen it as well. But it's a great film. And, yeah, the book is. The book is good, but very long.

Oh, it's very long. And it was a real. You know, I was speaking to my granddad a lot. He said, how far are you now? I was like, well, I've read another 200, but I've still got another 600 to go. You know, it's a. It's a real mountain, but worth it.

It's great lessons in that book.

Yeah.

Okay. So in your class, music or no music?

Music.

Music. Interesting. There's a. There are lots of debate back and forth about whether having music in classes is the right thing or the wrong thing at the moment. I think you just do what you want to do.

Yeah. I mean, look, I was teaching a class yesterday. As I say, it was split between people in the studio and people on Zoom. And there was an issue with my headset, and the mic was not picking up my voice, so I had to go to the laptop. Sound. So I was trying to play the music, and of course, the guys on Zoom just said, we just can't hear. So I switched the music off. And, you know, there was a brief moment where I was like, I really planned that playlist. And you know, and then it works. The movement really goes with the flow of the music. But then when that was my issue, you know, it wasn't the students issue. And when I kind of let that go, we had an amazing class and it was very, you know, it's beautiful to, to hear the breath in everyone and, and to have that, you know, that silence in some parts of the class. So, you know, I, I love classes that don't have music. But for me, I would always choose music just because I like the way it feels to move with that kind of rhythm.

Yes. There's a lot of times as teachers we get into our own head as to what we're doing and actually for the students, they're fine. When I first started teaching, I used music. And then one class, for some reason I just found it really distracting. So for the next class I didn't. And I asked students at the end, oh, I didn't use music. And they're like, we didn't even notice.

I have to say actually from. I remember when I first started teaching and I was talking to my, my teacher and I said, ah, but the music, the music. And they said, don't do music when you're first starting out. Yeah, I got told that focus on the teaching. And then when you become confident with the teaching and it just becomes second nature, then add in the music. But that, that's not the point. People haven't come to the class to listen to music. You know, they've come to do yoga. So.

Yeah, a key one for, for teachers that I like to ask, self practice or lead practice?

Oh, I think I enjoy led practice. Again, very much to do with the energy. I really love presence of others and I find that quite special.

Yeah.

You know, sometimes self practice is important and you know, for instance, I self practice by trying a lot of my poses that I'm working on at that particular point by myself. But in terms of the kind of, you know, Vinyasa style stuff, I really like to be with other people.

Yeah. Yeah. The energy in the room is. Yeah, it's good. Really adds to, to the sequence.

It does, yeah.

Coming to yoga apparel, yoga pants, aloe or lululemon or none?

Lululemon.

That's three.

I think it's three for lululemon so far.

Good.

It's so soft and, and it wears so well and you know, I sound like a salesperson, but it is really, really good yoga wear. It is.

Yeah. I'm, I'm very much. I mean, yeah, I think I'm ordering lululemon today. It's kind of taking me through lockdown. So.

Yeah, I am in Mark's Spencer's right now currently. So, you know, I'm doing it. Yeah.

Yeah, I represent.

Exactly.

And what would be your dream retreat destination?

Oh, I think probably Sri Lanka.

Okay.

I just, when I went there, not for yoga, but years ago, I went there with my husband. So my husband's from India and we went to Sri Lanka for just about four or five days. And we just remember we felt so. I don't know, it was a very wholesome feeling place and I think it would be a very special place to go and to. To do a retreat or. Yeah, to do some yoga. Yeah.

Cool. Yeah, I haven't been yet still, but I really, really like to go there.

It's beautiful and the people are just so lovely. Yeah, you just kind of get off the plane and feel like you're being hugged straight away.

Yes, sounds amazing. Well, whenever we can get on the plane again. Cool. Okay. So what do you have coming up in soon or in the future? Any events or do you want to tell people where you're teaching or.

Yeah, I'd love to get the word out about my prenatal classes. So I'm officially qualified and just looking to, I guess, build a bit of a community, possibly do some series work. So, you know, for women that are just in the first trimester and we can practice together and then be together through your second and your third, I would really like to try and get that kind of community going so that that's where I'd be focusing some, some energy and yeah, you know, my usual classes, so I teach Ashtanga and vinyasa and then gentle flow and then beginner. So just, just the usual schedule of teaching those types of classes and then I'm trying to build up this presence in, in the prenatal community because I. Yeah, I think it's a very special type of yoga. So that that's what I'm going to be doing in the near future. Yeah.

Great. That's a lot of stuff going on there.

Yes.

I should connect you with one of my, my previous guests who's also in the prenatal space. Yeah. Yes, she's also in Singapore, so yeah, I think you two could. Could do some good things together.

Great.

Cool. And finally, where can people find you?

Okay, my Instagram. Okay. So you can find me on Google as Together Yoga. I'm on Facebook. Together Yoga sg. Same thing with Instagram. Together Yoga sg. I'm pretty sure if you just Search my name Kim Katre. On Instagram. It also comes up with Together Yoga. And yeah, you can find me in the east at yoga lab most weeks, usually around the kind of lunchtime classes and I'm anywhere around in Singapore. So yeah, wherever you need me to be, you know, I like to do kind of private classes as well, so go to people's houses and you know, but in the online world, Together Yoga.

Yeah, perfect. Okay. And we'll, we'll stick all that in the show notes as well and people can follow you and see, see when.

You do have something to say on Instagram.

Yeah, exactly. Just, just wait.

Okay, well, thanks, Kim. It's been really great talking to you. I think that we've, we've gone through some, some really interesting issues that can really help out the listeners who are trying to figure out what they want to do and where they want to go and.

Yeah, cool. Thank you so much, Ryan. Thank you for having me. And yes, it's just such a lovely experience to come and just talk about yoga. It's like my dream. So, yeah, thank you so much for having me.

No problem. And yeah, as I say, some of my guests, I'm sure that in a year or so's time, it'd be good to kind of come back and see, see where, where things have taken you and what you're up to then. So, so, so yeah, thanks again and yeah, see you again soon.

Cool.

Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of the Yoga Dent podcast. If you like the show, hit subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. That really helps to get the show out to others and lets me know.

To keep creating new episodes.

If you'd like to get on the show yourself or there's someone you'd like to hear on the show, drop me a line on Instagram, heogadenpodcast and YNE Spence Yoga. And if you'd like to find out more about me, what I'm about, what I do, check out the website ryan spenceyoga.com but for this week, all that's left to say is eat plants, give thanks, do yoga, peace.