Laura Dobberstein - Enjoy The Silver Linings & Do What Brings You Joy

There's lots of different yoga teachers. They just appeal to different people. So for me, I don't really resonate with the super stern styles because, you know, I think you'll probably relate to this. As I kind of touched on before, like, when you come from the corporate world, you know you're constantly being told you need to achieve more, you need to do more, you need to be better at this, you need to be better at this. Nobody's ever telling you you're okay.

Welcome to the Yoga Den. Are you a stressed out cog in the corporate wheel? Do you find yourself asking, what am I doing and why am I doing it? Then the Yoga Den is the place for you. I'm your host, Ryan Spence, AKA the big law dropout, writer, yoga teacher, and your guide on the path to well being through yoga. Yoga helped me find my purpose, changed my mindset and my life. And in this podcast, I'll share how to live a life of intention reaction. Each week I'll be talking to a variety of guests and covering pearls of wisdom to help you figure out where you're heading is where you really want to go. I won't find your purpose for you, but I'll help you plan the route. So sit back and grab a drink. I've been expecting you. Hello and welcome to episode 11 of the Yoga Den podcast. As promised, this week we have a guest in the building. Real live guest. After a few weeks of remote conversations, it's good to have someone to be in the same room with. But before I get to this week's guest, I've got a couple of announcements to make. So, as a yoga teacher, I frequently get asked how often I practice, and when I say every day, there's usually a look of surprise and incredulity before I continue by saying, not every day is a 90 minute or one hour practice. I wish I could do that. But with two kids and the general comings and goings of everyday life, I've got to be realistic. I just don't have that amount of time. Sometimes my practice is a strong 45 minute Vinyasa flow. Other times it looks more like 10 minutes on the mat in child's pose. But the fact is that what you do, it doesn't matter. What matters is to get a little something in every day. Be consistent. And so that's why I created a 15 minute yoga flow. Flow in 15. For all you busy people out there whose lives are already jam packed with work, kids, other commitments, you know how it goes. Flo15 will help you connect your mind, body, body and breath, giving you the tools to reduce stress, anxiety, and generally to feel in control of your day. So head over to ryanspenceyoga.com to get the free ebook and video to kickstart your day the right way. Because I'm sure you can take 15 minutes to take care of your well being, right? Yeah, I'm sure you can. Okay, let's talk community. Whatever it is that you're trying to do or achieve, you can't do it alone. When you're having a bad day or you don't feel that you can push on, your community will lift you up and give you the support you need. And change is hard, but being around people who understand and share your issues, concerns and your fears can really help to lighten the load. So if you resonate with the topics discussed on this podcast, if you want to be part of a community and want to support the continued creation of the show, and talk to other people who are maybe going through the same things that you're going through, questioning what they're doing and why they're doing it. If where they are now is where they want to be, and if where they're heading is where they want to go, go ahead and check out The Patreon page patreon.com the Yoga Den podcast Pick the tier that works for you, whether you just want to support the show or if you want to access exclusives such as bonus episodes and monthly AMAs with yours truly. If you didn't catch that link, you can get it in the show notes. And if you choose to give your support, you have my utmost thanks. Really appreciate it and I salute you. Now let's get on with the show. If I were to ask you what what connects yoga and science, many of you probably say nothing. Of course science is about logic, yoga, it's all philosophy and woo woo. Yeah, a common theme and probably something that I would have thought a while back. Well, this week's guest not only holds a Master's in science and wrote her thesis around bringing science into yoga. She's also a yoga teacher, a science writer and former aerospace engineer. Laura Doberstein fell in love with yoga from her very first class and following her 200 hour teacher training, managed to fight through her limiting beliefs and ended up teaching yoga in studios across the us, London and now Singapore. Laura has a regular schedule of classes and each week has built up a cohort of loyal students that have stuck with her throughout the ups and downs of 2020 live classes to Zoom classes, and now a hybrid of the two. So for me, someone without a science background, I was definitely a liberal arts guy. I learned a lot from our conversation, which spanned topics such as why aerospace engineers are not actually scientists. I never knew that. Why the best cure for imposter syndrome is to just do it anyway, why the image of yoga needs to change if we're going to encourage more people to come to the practice, and how the quest for truth provides the link between science and yoga. So, as always, go ahead, grab yourself a drink, and let's do this. Okay. Hey, Laura, welcome to the yoga den. How are you doing?

I'm doing great, thanks. How are you?

I'm good. It's good to actually have someone in the room with me for a change. It's been a while, so, yeah, I'm really looking forward to having a chat today. When we, we talked about doing this interview a while ago, like before the podcast was even out, before it was even launched. And one of the things that I was really interested in is the sort of connection between science and yoga. Because you're, you're from a science background, I guess I would call you a scientist, but feel free to correct me. And you're also a yoga teacher, and the stereotype is that the two don't meet. I mean, science is about logic and yoga is about sort of philosophy and esoteric stuff. So I'm looking forward to delving into that a little bit deeper as we get into the interview. But let's kick off with talking about your. Your pre yoga life. So obviously we know each other, your friends and my wife. But for the, for the benefit of the listeners, tell us, like, where you're from and kind of about your science background and kind of what brought you to where you are now.

Yeah, so I'm American. I'm from the United States. I grew up in Texas, and I not a scientist, as I just told you a second ago, before we started recording, and scientists would probably take offense with me being called one. I've never had that sort of lab experience that scientists have. I studied engineering, so I studied aerospace engineering, which involves a lot of science. And then I have a master's in science communication. So I spent some time kind of doing designing helicopters and aircraft, and then I've spent some time designing high tech equipment, computer equipment, that sort of thing. So, yeah, I did that for a while and, you know, I had a couple jobs and meanwhile was really into yoga and exploring that as well at the same time.

Okay, so you were practicing yoga while you were working in industry, is that right?

Yes. So I started practicing yoga in college. It was, I was, it was. I'm pretty old now. I'm going to show my age. So it was 2000 and I was my second semester of uni and I went to my first yoga class and my first yoga experience. I went with a friend and when I left I just was, you know, floored. I was like, oh my God, that was amazing. And it was really funny because my friend was like, what was that? That was stupid. And I was like, did we just have the same experience? And she's like, obviously not. So, yeah. And then I continued from there. As I was going through my degree program, I found it at times quite stressful. So I couldn't really leave the lab to go, you know, to go watch a movie or to just, you know, I don't know, any other hobby. But I can make an excuse in my head to go to a on campus free yoga class. So that's kind of like I just started incorporating that in my day and you know, from there just kind of continued. I found it something that I could really use to really to alleviate, you know, stress and other symptoms and just feel better.

So yoga is a stress reliever? Yeah, a common theme and a gateway for a lot of us in terms of getting into the practice. We're going to talk a little bit more about yoga, but aerospace engineer to me sounds like one of those really cool things. You can imagine being sat around a table at dinner and everyone introduces themselves and what they do and you've got the boring lawyer like me, and you've got the banker and you've got the accountant and then you just smack down aerospace engineer which is just like, boom. That's amazing. So to me it sounds quite glamorous and like this awesome role. What's an average day like for an aerospace engineer? Can you paint us a picture?

Oh, well, it's probably not as glamorous as you think it is.

I thought you might say that.

I mean, there's a lot of time in front of a computer. Nothing happens very quickly. I got to do some really cool stuff. Like I got to work with aircraft simulators and that was really neat. And flight test data and that was really neat. But overall it's a lot of, you know, long, you know, long desk sitting situations and you know, the people that are that were in the aerospace engineering world at the time that I was in it, it's very male dominated. There was a lot of older people as well. And I Went into a kind of this 23 year old female who, you know, liked yoga and maybe. Yeah, it's just there was a little bit I stood out.

I stood out.

Yeah. You know, and also being young, when you go, when you go tell somebody in your 20s that you're an aerospace engineer, people just kind of look at you funny. They're like, oh, well, I'm a designer. You're like, oh, that, that sounds cool too. Like, you know, it's just not as cool. It sounds stodgy to a lot of people, I think.

But yeah, yeah, no, I can see that. And being, being standing out in an arena is definitely something I think a lot of people can relate to, whatever that may be, whether it's a corporate world or whether it's even within yoga, which is something that we'll talk about. But what made you become an aerospace engineer? I mean, is it one of those things where you like, I'm working, I'm doing this at school and I'm working all the way through to be an aerospace engineer? Or was it just something that you kind of just fell into based upon your background?

So I grew up 30 minutes outside of NASA and I was always super inspired. We did all our field trips there. I was inspired by, you know, the spacecraft. And you know, I thought to myself, like, wow, you know, I don't want to be an astronaut because, you know, I watched the videos of the astronauts and they were in space and they were lonely. You know, they would say, like, oh, we don't see our families and you know, we're really far away. They get the gift of seeing the earth from far away. But so I think at that point I decided, oh, it'd be really cool to work for mission control. So I think that was kind of in my head and I was really good at math. And then when it came kind of time to choose a major is, was a bit overwhelming. And you know, I chose that one. And I actually really loved learning. So when I was in university, I really thrived on it because I, yeah, I loved learning and it was, you know, you just learn all these really cool things and you know, when you get into a job, it's a little bit different. You know, it switches from the focuses on you learning to the focus is on you helping the company make money.

Okay.

And you know, that's something that I don't think that everybody is prepared for when they leave university. Yeah, yeah.

Okay. And how long were you doing the role for? How long were you in that environment?

I worked as an engineer for probably about six years. And then I worked in sales engineering, which is like a technical marketing position. I did that for about two and a half years as well.

Okay, wow. And thereafter, were you still in the industry or at what point did you exit?

So I've had a couple exits.

Okay, excellent.

So, yeah, so I worked in aerospace and then I worked in high tech. And I thought the environment might be a little bit different and wanted to give it a try, something different within engineering, see if it might be a better fit. And when I got made redundant from that job, American listeners, that's laid off. Yeah, I just, I had all these dreams and things that I wanted to do and explore and, you know, one of them was teaching yoga, or actually more getting my yoga teacher training done. That was calling to me. So I did that. And like, at the time I was writing, I had a popular blog. This was 2009, before everybody and their dog had a blog. Having a blog was a completely different experience. So I was writing quite a lot and having success at it. And then my husband and I, we weren't married at the time. He had a job offer in London and I was like, let's do it. So we moved there and we had some time there and I started working at a yoga studio there kind of administratively. And also after a while, I started writing about science. I had a friend that I knew from the blogging community who was a scientist. Like a proper actual scientist, not an engineer. And she. Yeah, and so she, she hired me on to do some writing. And that's kind of like how I got the start kind of science writing. And I. Yeah, I just, I needed. I was teaching yoga a little bit at Gems and I was working administratively. You know, as soon as you get your teacher training, you don't get offered like a. A full time position as a yoga teacher.

Nope, you do not. Cool. Okay, so as we're on the subject of yoga, you obviously mentioned before about your first class. What was it about it that really grabbed you and made you want to go back? Because I know for me and for a few people as well, like you go to your first class and you just feel awful because you can't do anything, but still you go back, which is weird. But anyway, for you, it seems as though straight away you were like, this is for me.

Yeah, I don't think that I felt awful about not being able to do anything. I was just kind of there doing it. The teacher came up to me a few times to tell me I was doing it. Wrong. But I was like, okay, yeah, whatever. But I think what hit me was when I, when I was finished, I was like, oh my God, I feel amazing. This is great what just happened, you know? Yeah, I, you know, this was 20 years ago, so it's hard for me to pinpoint exactly more about that experience. Yeah, it was like an hour 20 minutes 20 years ago.

20 years ago, yeah.

Yeah.

And what kind of yoga was it? Was it hot yoga? Was it bikram? Was it sort of more or you just not sure?

No, I think it was just General Hatha because, you know, this is, I don't think that Bikram was really that big of a thing back then, was it? I don't know, maybe it was and I just was blind to it.

Yeah. I'm not sure when the, when the explosion of Bikram was, but I think, yeah, you probably know, I think you're probably right. I don't think it was as big then. I think it's probably a few years later, so.

Yeah, yeah. So this, yes, this year is the 20th anniversary of my first yoga class, so.

Wow. Yeah. I think I often try and think about my first yoga class and mine might be similar again, showing my age back in London, years ago, and I remember going, and I was broke, but I had a bit of money, so I went to a class and yeah, I couldn't do anything and I felt stiff and I was the only guy, et cetera, et cetera. But yeah, I'd still, whenever I could scrabble the money together, I would go and do a class. It was very erratic. But yeah, it's, it's amazing to think actually when you said 20 years, I'm like, gosh, yeah, I think that's the same for me. It's, it's insane. Time does certainly fly. Okay, so you fell in love with yoga, you sort of carried you through your engineering career and helped you sort of deal with this sort of stress and anxiety. At what point did you decide, I want to teach or I want to at least do my teacher training?

I was always kind of called towards a teacher training. You know, I would, I would look at these kind of teacher training experiences. But you know, you have to give, you get how many weeks of holiday a year in the us? Like two weeks, three weeks maybe, if you have a good job. Maybe four if you wrap it around Christmas.

Yeah.

So, you know, it just wasn't really very possible. So, you know, at the point when I was made redundant, I was very much relying very heavily on yoga to Help me with symptoms of stress and also caffeine addiction. You know, I think I have that. Yeah. I mean, I've gone through periods of my life where I've given up caffeine, but I'm back on the horse now that I have kids. So, yeah, so, like, I actually had to go through like, a, you know, a quick caffeine kind of situation. It was a little bit out of control. And I know it sounds silly to. You know, there's lots of worse things to be addicted to, but it does. It does affect you. You know, your muscles clamp up and you grind your teeth and you can't sleep very well and. Yeah, so that was my caffeine addiction at the time. So I was doing lots of yoga to counteract that and the stress that I was having with just job stuff. Normal job stuff. Yeah.

Okay. And so you were saying, obviously, that the time that you need to do a teacher training is quite intensive, and the US Is notoriously bad for vacation leave. So what did you do? What was the trigger for you to bite the bullet and go ahead and do it? And. And how did that fit in with the job you were doing at the time?

Yeah, so, I mean, I was made redundant. And then I was like, oh, okay, well, what am I going to do? And it was like, oh, I had all these things I wanted to do. You know, I wanted to explore a little bit more about photography, was one. And I wanted to. Yeah, I wanted to do a yoga teacher training. So, like, I just basically just did it, like, kind of impulsively. It was like, okay, yeah, okay, I'm doing that now. And, you know, I went to a friend's house afterwards, and I was like, oh, I did something impulsive. And she's like, what did you do? I was like, oh, I signed up for this yoga teacher training here. And she's like, that is the best thing you need to do that. Like, you're gonna spend every day for a couple weeks now doing what you love. That is exactly what you need right now. And, yeah, I think the world would be a better place if we all explored the things we loved.

Oh, without. Without a doubt. And that's one of the things we're trying to do on the show here, is get people to sort of think that you can get out of that box. If you love what you do, great. But if you don't go and find something that you do and just sort of figure it out, you know, I mean, make the move, make the change, because you'll be a Lot happier for it. And the people around you will definitely thank you for it.

Yeah, I mean, what we need to be around is more pleasant people because they're happy with their lives.

Exactly, exactly. So where did you do your teacher training?

It was in Baja California, which is in Mexico. Even though the word, the name is just say California in it. And it was through a company. I didn't really, you know, in hindsight I probably would do it through like a teacher I know now. But like, at the time, you know, I, I was like, oh, this is beautiful. I'm gonna be camping on the beach. Like, I'm sure it'll be fine. I'm being, I'm being pulled to this for some reason. So, like, I'm just gonna explore that. And yeah, I went, it was, it was really beautiful, really beautiful place in Baja California. It's still there. It's called Yandara Yoga. So I did my 200 hour teacher training there. It was quite intense and I met people that I'm still in contact with today that are amazing people. And yeah, so I went not knowing if I was going to actually teach. I just felt called to this experience. And then when I finished, it was like, yeah, I'm gonna teach at least a little bit. I'm gonna, you know, dip my toes in it. Although, you know, I didn't really have the confidence to go out and just really full throttle do it because I had such amazing teachers. And I think you have, when you're learning, you're like, how am I ever going to measure up to these amazing teachers?

Exactly.

You know, what do I have to offer?

And yeah, exactly, it's, it's definitely a mindset shift. I think what was interesting for me is that yoga really helped me with my mindset in terms of figuring out what I wanted to do in my vision and all of that. And that led me to do my teacher training. But then your teacher training, as you said, your mindset is then a bit like, oh, but these are so amazing. I'm never going to remember all of that. I'm never going to do all of that. And I think, and I'd be interested to hear what your experience was. But the best thing for me was that I just taught straight away. Our teacher was very much like, get out there and teach. Like, don't try and fill your head with more and more knowledge. Get out there and teach and you'll figure it out and you'll find your style. So I kind of finished my training on the Monday and taught my first class on the Wednesday and was absolutely terrified, but went from there. How soon after your training did you get out and teach class?

Yeah, I got back to, I got back to, I was living in Austin, Texas at the time. Time I got back to Austin, Texas and I, you know, I just got some, I got some friends together and I asked my, one of my teachers who had just opened like her own studio, it was a bit of a co op studio, if I could, you know, just have a class there. And she was like, you know, yeah, absolutely. So I got that first class out of the way, teaching a group of friends for free. I actually, I didn't tell them, I actually paid for the room, you know, because I just, I just wanted people to come and you know, it was like, okay, it's free, here you go. And yeah, I mean they were really, a lot of them were really happy. It was the first time they'd ever practiced yoga and they really liked it. But I was grossly underprepared to fill an hour's worth of time with them, you know, and, and it was terrifying. And yeah, so like after that it was a matter of I'm moved in with my husband, who was my boyfriend at the time. And I taught a. After that I signed up to teach a free class for cancer care patients. So then every week I was teaching cancer care patients, I was volunteer teaching and I took it so seriously. I think they just wanted a yoga class. But I was like, how do I best serve these people who are going through this experience that need to feel good in their bodies and they were really sweet. And when I moved to London, I started working at a really high end yoga studio there. So then I had access to so many amazing teachers, more amazing teachers. And then that helped kind of build my knowledge base, being there in that environment. And then eventually I was able to get regular classes that were paid in gyms and things. And I did that for a while. Type A personalities in London.

Yes, I know those types well. I worked with many of them and I think there's a really good, a really good tip or a good lesson in what you said there because I think for a lot of people we can hold ourselves back thinking we don't know enough, we need to do more research, we need to get more experience, we need to get more confident. But actually the only way to get over those things is just by doing it. And like I said for you, it was teaching cancer care patients and treating it's really seriously like a serious gig, as you should. It's Still a yoga class, but, but if you hadn't done that and you'd shied away and said, I need to know more, I need another year, I need another two years and another three years. You may not be teaching now. So, yeah, get out and just do things is my advice. And I guess you'd say the same based on your experience.

Yeah. And I think also what really helped me was I read a quote from Donna Fari that was about. It was like, it's not about the outcome as much as it is about the intention. So you have to do it and let go of the outcome. And you know, I'd love to quote. That quote that she had. Exactly. Is so powerful. But I'll have to send it to you later.

Yeah, no, I'll try and find it and stick a link to in the show notes. I'm very, very big on quotes and I love hearing what people, what people refer to and rely on. But yeah, intention is a key factor, I think, in figuring out what you want to do and where you want to go. So we've touched a bit, a bit on the science and a bit on the yoga. And now I kind of want to sort of try and bring the two together. As we said at the top of the show, that there is sor. Of widely seen to be this sort of conflict between the two. But what's interesting is that that's not how you see it. And so you wrote your master's thesis on. And I'm going to get the title right here. Bringing Science into Everyday Yoga, A Study on Student Receptivity and Perceptions of Science in the Wellness Sphere. Which, I mean, the title alone blows my mind. I'm not, I'm not a scientist at all. And one of the good things about this interview is I'm looking forward to learning a bit more. And you kindly sent me your thesis just before the interview. So I'm going to delve into, into that and try and get my, my tiny brain around the concepts in there. But you also sent me some of the, the notes that you wrote around the time that you did the thesis. And there's one particular quote that I'd like to read out because I found it fascinating. So I'm going to sort of read this now, which is what many of us love about science is that it is the closest we can get to truth. Funding can be cut for needed research or certain research projects can be chosen over others. At times an error is made and scientists are wrong. But within the realm of science, we do not Falsify. We are held to a process. Simply put, the scientific method cannot be persuaded by the desires of the people around is defined. It is a method of seeking truth.

Yeah.

What I find fascinating about that, and there's a couple of things, so one is that we're in a time where people are freely spouting conspiracy theories and denying science and denying things that are actual fact. So for example, the pandemic which is, which is going on at the moment, the impact of the climate emergency. So what I like about this is it's reorientating science as is truth. I mean, truth is something that can't be denied. It's something that you can't argue with. And that's something I'd like to explore with you a bit more at some point. Point. But I think in the context of the show and of yoga could expand a little more on how that concept of truth links both science and yoga.

Yeah, I mean, so science is the exploration and seeking of knowledge and truth in a very physical way, whereas yoga is. You're like searching for an internal truth. You're searching for something that's not tangible level of truth. So I think that's what the parallel is. Correct. And it's fascinating because with both you get gifts, but you get gifts of different nature. So as you understand science, we get things like vaccines, we get things like out of po, we get brought out of poverty, we get little devices that we carry around in our pockets that will let us look at pictures of cats or find out any information that we want to know or just connect us with our friends and family. And those are very tangible gifts. And then with yoga we get gifts of course, of health, of well being, but spirituality and emotion. And it seems like they're very siloed. But there's also a lot of overlap in that when people are feeling quite centered and well, it's going to affect how they interact with their neighbors. So you're going to start to see more tangible effects as well. And one of the things that's fascinating to me is that we feel like these things are very siloed or lots of people think they're very siloed. But there is a tremendous body of research around yoga. At the time when I wrote my thesis, it was over 4,000 PubMed publications that mentioned yoga. And then I looked this morning and it was like 5200. So there's research coming out all the time. People are fascinated, like, how does it work? Does it work? Is this something that's like woo, Woo. And isn't, you know, is, is so intangible and esoteric that it's not real or, you know, can we measure the effects of it? And yeah, I mean they have, they've measured loads of effects. There's 5200 studies or whatever the number was.

Yeah. And that's what's fascinating because like you say, they are looked at as siloed. But actually science, science isn't just this thing that's over here. Science impacts everything, as you say in everyday life, like when you're referring to obviously carrying phones or they mean the air that we breathe, anything like science is a part of that. So. And yoga is a part of life, so there's no reason why they should be siloed. And as you say, there are so many studies now on the benefits of, of yoga and of meditation. The fact that meditating regularly over a period of time can change your brain, I mean that's just, that's just amazing.

Yeah, neuroplasticity.

Yeah, exactly, neuroplasticity. So the two things do converge. And then that's why I was really looking forward to having that conversation, to kind of demonstrate to people that yoga isn't this sort of like you say, this thing that's a bit woo woo, that's a bit out there that sort of hippies do in the desert. It has real tangible benefits to you and your life. And if you can just incorporate aspects of that, you can see the benefit, like anything you have to be consistent, but you can definitely see the benefit. It's not something that, that is out there that other people do.

Well, they also, they have also shown that the more you practice yoga, the quicker you can access the benefits. So you're going to see, you're going to feel it. Like I did that first class. You might feel it, the first class, but then as you continue, it becomes easier. Your neural pathways are redefined so that you can go to that place quicker and faster, which I'm sure you're finding in your own practice. Right. And when you teach, you know, I can be teaching and then I can have everybody in a shavasana and I can just take a moment and go inside and I'm like, oh, wow, I'm there already. Look, there it is.

Yeah. Oh, definitely, without a doubt. I mean I, I started practicing years ago as we talked about earlier, and. But it was a very erratic practice. It was when I could afford to go. And then obviously when I became a lawyer, I had the money, but didn't always have the Time. So I'd kind of go here and there, and then I wouldn't go for a while. But I only started to really. And I'd feel good after every class, and that's why I kept going. But I only started sort of really, as you said, get the deeper benefits and be able to tap into the tools that it gave me when I became consistent and I started to incorporate a daily practice and I started to go deeper with it. So that is definitely true. And I think that that's. That's the interesting. I don't know, the interesting conflict with. With Taipei personalities that you sort of mentioned working with in London and that I would have worked with in my world is that you want to be good. Everything, and you want to be good now. You don't necessarily want to spend the time. You don't want to go to a class and be the only one in the class who can't do something. And so that's what puts a lot of people off. And so trying to kind of get through to people that, first of all, that's not the point of yoga. But also that if you are consistent, you will see those benefits, and as you said, you will be able to kind of tap into those benefits when you need the most. If we can get that across to people, then I think that that's a beautiful thing and we can get more people on the mat.

Yeah, but I agree with you 100%. I also think that a lot of the times people put the pressure on themselves to do all or nothing, though. You know what I mean? They're like, I can't do this every day, so I'm not gonna do it. Or there's a sales technique of you need to come X amount of times a week in order, you know, to really see the benefits. I'm gonna sign you up for X amount of times, and, you know, then I'm gonna get my. My money as a studio or whatever. I don't think most studios are evil, by the way. I think that that's just. That's a. Some people do that. I don't think that most people do that, but you got to fit it into your everyday life, too. So if it means. What I found when I was in London working at the studio is, you know, I'd have my break and I could do, like 20 minutes of yoga and, you know, go into a room that wasn't being used, and they do 20 minutes. And that actually sometimes was enough. That was fine. I felt. I felt like that was good enough. So it's about also putting it into your life and making it sustainable. And one thing that I am very anti is like this whole pressure of, you know, you have to. I just, I just feel like so many people today put too much pressure on themselves.

Yeah, agreed.

Yeah. So you get it in where you can, you do what you can. If it works for you and you find that it's something that you're enjoying or you can feel the benefits, then keep putting it in your life, keep putting it in your schedule as much as you can.

Oh, 100%. And I think that, I mean particularly more so now that I'm a teacher is a question that I get asked whether it's from students or elsewhere, like, do you practice every day? And I say yes and kind of people look at you in awe. But I'm always make a point to say, but I don't do like a one hour or 90 minute class every day. Like I can't do that. I have two kids. I mean I have other things going on. I would love to. And that was the beauty of teacher training is that every morning you got there and it was 90 minute practice and 30 minute meditation. I mean that's amazing. But it's unrealistic to expect to do that every day. So sometimes I get on the mat for like, for 10, 15 minutes and you know, I mean I might just stretch out my wrists or sit in child's pose or whatever. And that's what, that's what I mean by consistency. You can practice yoga every day, but yoga isn't just a 90 minute hot yoga class.

Yeah.

You know, and, and so if we can get, get, get that across and try and just get people moving and connecting their mind and their body and the breath, then hopefully they will start to see those small wins and continue with the practice. And you might go and go to a studio. I mean I go to studio probably once a week now. Most of the time I practice at home. So you don't have to spend a fortune signing up to packages for months on end and going to a studio every day. It's definitely helpful, particularly if you're new. And even as a teacher sometimes it's like I just want to be led. I don't want to kind of think about it. Yeah, but there's so many online resources as well now you can kind of put your own sort of sequences together. So yeah, just, just whatever you can. It's not a competition, just, yeah, just get on the man and do it. And I think that leads us into Something I wanted to. Well, what's, what's it? Well, what's interesting about what I'm going to say now is that when I started preparing this interview months ago, I wrote something down and I found it when I was going through my notes when we're kind of sort of coming up to today, but I'm not sure. And I was very disorganized then. I'm a little bit, a little bit better now, but I was so disorganized then that I'm not sure whether this is a quote from something I found that you had said on the online somewhere or if it's just something I was pondering at the time and I thought it'd be interesting for this conversation. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to read it out and if you don't recognize it, I'm going to claim it. Okay, so what it is, is yoga doesn't exist in a vacuum. To encourage more people to the practice and show that yoga is for everybody, the image and stereotypes need to be changed. Do you recognize that quote?

No, but I've written lots of things. I'm going to let you have this one because I, I wouldn't know. I don't know.

It's fine. It doesn't matter. I have it. I don't need the glory. But what it does is what I like about it. And I think why I wrote it down then, and at least what came to me when I was reading again today is that, and there's a whole movement at the moment about it all over social media and everywhere about sort of yoga and the cultural appropriation of yoga and the exclusion of yoga. But I think, and I think the quote is that because in terms of the podcast, and also more wider than that, if as yogis or yoga practitioners, whatever you want to call us, if we're going to espouse the benefits of yoga, which is kind of what we're doing here and what I do, often we have to. And it's incumbent upon us to ensure that yoga is for everybody, that everybody feels welcome and that they're supported in yoga spaces. And as someone who's, who's been teaching for, for a long time and you've taught obviously in different countries and in different spaces, I'd be interested to hear your take on that. Because my take is that I know that before coming to Singapore, I'd never been taught by a non white teacher. I've never been taught by a teacher who looks like me. I know for a Lot of men. There is still this sort of impression that yoga is basically done by sort of really pretty flexible women in Lululemon that can do all these amazing things that they can't do. So that intimidates them. People who have different body shapes, people who have disabilities, I mean, they don't necessarily see themselves represented in the stereotypical image of yoga. So if we're trying to bring people together in this space and say to them, this is for you and this is going to be beneficial, how do we do that?

Well, yeah, that's a really good question. So I'm going to check my privilege and my situation here. I am obviously a slender, white, blonde female teaching yoga, which, you know, can be problematic in and of itself. That's a whole nother topic about cultural appropriation that I'm still learning about. I'm still constantly keeping on my radar and trying to understand better and honor yoga in the best way that I can. As its roots are a spiritual practice that comes out of India. We can write all the science about it we want, but at the end of the day, you know, we need to give credit where credit is due and also to the Duzi people whose tradition this comes from. Okay, so that aside, how do we, how do we serve the people in front of us? I think that's the question that we have. So, you know, there are a lot of people that feel like yoga isn't for them. And I've had people, you know, write me after class and say, you know, I can't do maybe somebody that was quite large, curvy, curving woman, like, I can't do those positions. Yoga's not for people like me. And I can understand why she would feel that way in a room full of people that are not curvy. And it's a challenge because you want to give, you're having these mixed level classes and you want to give people that are quite athletic the opportunity, but also you want to also give mindfulness to people who maybe have a disability or injuries. So, you know, one way that I do that is by focusing a lot on alignment with people, because even the most, the most athletic of people will. Can be a little bit more mindful about the muscle engagement that they have. Another way that I do that is by offering different classes. So offering yen classes or, you know, slower classes than that might be optimal for people with injuries and things like that. But I think it is a matter of just coming into the, seeing who's in the room that day and being present for every single person. That's there and what they're going through and then paying attention to how they react to the cues that you give out. And then you can pick up that feedback from there about what they need or what underlying things that they're not telling you that exist maybe in their bodies or in their minds or in their, you know, just in their ether. And if you are getting only, you know, super bendy white women who, you know, fit a profile, then you need to ask yourself why that is. So, you know, I mean, like, I did start off by doing the cancer care patients and that was. I was like a vinyasa flow girl at that time. And so, you know what I mean? Like, I can't really teach vinyasa flow to people who like a strong flow to people who are having cancer. So that to me was also very, very much a learning experience there of like sitting down and being like, what actually is good for these people? What actually do they need? So I hope I answered your question.

Yes, exactly. And I wasn't trying to put you on the spot. I just think it's a conversation that we need to have that is being had, but that we all need to have. And it's something that I find interesting as well. Yeah. As I say, I've been to lots of yoga classes in lots of different places and the profile hasn't really changed that much. I mean, obviously being in Singapore, it's changed slightly because you get a lot more Singaporeans and a lot more Singaporean teachers, but it's still a similar profile of people in terms of body type and athleticism. Yeah.

So I went from this place where I was absolutely not the profile to one where I was like, exactly the profile. And that's also been like an eye opener situation. And I don't feel like I was put on the spot, but I do feel like it is important for those of us who do fit that profile to stand up and say, yes, I recognize that I fit the profile. However, yoga isn't just for people that look like me.

Yeah. Being inclusive and yes, interesting we said about being a vinyasa flow teacher and then kind of realizing that that wasn't going to work in the environment that you're in. Because, yeah, I'm a vinyasa flow teacher, but as I've found, and the beauty of having taught so soon and also with having sort of a fairly regular cohort of students is that you get to know your students and you also get to know what it is that they need and what it is that they want and you accept that it's not about you as a teacher. So you can go in there with your sequence plan, but I've gone in with sequence and they sort of turned up and said, oh, can we focus on this today or can we do that today? And I'm like, okay, that wasn't in my sequence. So now I've kind of got a freestyle. But that's, that's what you do. You, you, you're there to hold space for your students. You're not there to show how great you are and you're not there to kind of perpetuate the stereotype of, of what yoga is sort of in the world. You're sort of there to. Yeah. To sort of help your students sort of find themselves effectively and guide themselves through the practice.

Yeah.

And the whole concept of stereotype and image of yoga, I think, leads us on to my next question, which I talked about in a couple of, a couple of the earlier episodes, and I think it's quite a good point to come back to, which is the whole concept of yoga and social media. So I've since delving into the world of Instagram earlier this year, I've. I've sort of discovered this whole sort of yoga Instagram world, which is fascinating. And I mean, there is variety in there, but there was a. There is a lot of the stereotypes that you'd expect. And what I found interesting speaking to yoga teachers on this podcast is that very few of them have kind of. I wouldn't say bought into that, but very few of them are really active in that social media space for various reasons. Well, yeah, and that, and that's. That. That was gonna be my question for you is that what I'm interested in is that you're. You're not inverted commas, insta yogi. You, you, you have a practice, you, you have regular classes, you teach. You obviously have a lot of knowledge, but you haven't gone down that route. And so I'm wondering whether it's a conscious decision, whether it's just you don't have the time or, or whether there's something else really.

I think it's just that I've found other things to do that have been more important. But I mean, that's not to. I do have a. I do have a social media presence. I. But I don't like to put bendy photos of me on there. I mean, I don't think that's really helpful. I don't think anybody needs to see me in Wheel. You know what I Mean, yeah. And also, like, I'd have to get somebody to take the photo for me or have to, like, I don't know. But, you know, I do have a social media presence. You know, I talked recently about, you know, spending time in quarantine, so I think, you know, on my social media feed and that got like, a positive response. So, you know, like, experiences like that, like that when I was in quarantine, because we recently got back from Canada, I don't recommend traveling during a pandemic.

Yeah, I was going to ask you about that, but yeah, let's do that now.

We had a death in the family. We absolutely. There was nobody else to deal with it. We had to go. It was very important for us to go. We went. So on the way back, we were in quarantine and, you know, it was an intense experience being in a hotel with my children. But one thing that yoga brought me is the ability to sit with intensity. And one, you know, that has been huge like that, you know, that that's also what got me through, like the birth of my children and parenthood. You know, it's sitting with intensity. So I'm constantly learning that lesson. So that resonated with me and I wanted to put that kind of out there because I felt other people would be having those sort of experiences as well. So that's the kind of presence I'm interested in having on social media. So, like, you know, I told you earlier, like, I did like a food blog in 2009. Hey, you know what? Like, that was 2009. That, that was like, that was right for me in 2009. But the Internet's evolved, social media's evolved, people's presence on social media have evolved. So what do I have to say that's actually valuable in some way? Now I do try to post kind of here and there just to kind of keep, you know, keep a presence or whatever. But I'd say that to maybe to my detriment, the kind of social media aspect hasn't been my goal.

And I think it, and I mean, it comes to intentions, it's a case of what, what are you doing and what are you doing it for? And I mean, you're. You live in Singapore, you have a business here in Singapore, you have regular students, lawyer students here in Singapore. So you probably don't need to be visible all over social media because you, I mean, you, you have kind of what you need here, like locally, like in real life, whereas for somebody else, they may not have that and you may be the way that they kind of get their name out there and sort of showcase who they are. But I think one thing I want to touch on that you said, which is, which I think is key is that when you said about nobody wants to see you in whale, I think it's, I think that you have to know who it is that you're targeting or who it is that you're trying to appeal to or what it is that you're trying to do. Because on the one hand, sometimes seeing people do these amazing poses is great and inspirational or it's a great photo or whatever. But if I was somebody who was thinking of doing yoga, I was a beginner, that to me would just look. Well, that's completely unattainable. It would almost sort of push me away. So if you're trying to attract people or bring new people to yoga or kind of attract beginners here and get them steep in their practice, then I think that that kind of has to come across in what it is that you post. So whether it's that you're posting more accessible poses or whether it's that you're maybe posting the advanced poses, but what you're doing is you're posting about your progress. So you're showing the journey, not just like, hey, look at me, I can do the splits rather than showing like the year or two of pain it took you to get there. So people know actually you can do it if you put in the work. So yeah, it's about what you're trying to achieve and who you're trying to attract.

Yeah, and I mean, some people, that's their thing. They have a really good social media presence and that's, you know, that's their thing. I guess maybe it's just I haven't made that my thing. That's not, that's not what I have to offer. And, and also I've got like, you know, I've got two kids and I've got two businesses and I'm busy and you know, and I've got my hands in so many different pots. So like I'm constantly just spinning wheels there, so. Oh, time to put something on the inside. Okay, cool.

Yeah, no, I mean, it's a, I mean is a, it's almost a full time job. I mean, it's, it's exhausting. It can be if you, I mean, I'm, I think I'm getting to a place now where it's a little bit, I've got a clear vision. So it's starting to get a Little bit easier. And I'm trying to get into, Everyone says, oh, you should batch stuff and kind of get stuff done. So I'm trying to sort of do that, but I have an intention about what I'm doing. And whereas, whereas in the beginning I had no clue what I was doing. And I think anyone who kind of looks back to the beginning of my feed will probably see that.

Yeah, well, I mean, that's, that's, you know, if you're not failing, you're not succeeding as well.

Yeah, exactly. You got to give it a go. But no, I mean, I, I, I just kind of wanted to sort of touch on that because it is, social media is such a huge part, particularly now that everything is, is online with, with all that's happened in, in 2020. So it's just kind of interesting to see how different people approach that and, and what they, what they do. And what you said about posting quarantine, I think that that, that is probably more valuable than showing yourself doing yoga because it's shown the other aspects of yoga and it's shown what the true benefits they can bring you off the mat. And a lot of people are having to deal with being in quarantine with their family. I mean, I wouldn't want to be in a room with my family for two weeks, definitely.

Yeah.

So, yeah, whatever. If showing that yoga can actually help you get through those difficult times, I think is, is, is really cool way of doing it.

Thanks.

Cool. No problem. What do you like best about teaching?

I, I don't know. You know, like, I talked about, like, how when I did my yoga teacher training is just something that like, kept calling to me. So I don't know. I guess I, I feel, I don't know.

Oh, gosh.

What do I like best about teaching? I like my students. They're awesome people. I like, I'd like to say I like seeing their, their progress, but it's not entirely a physical process. It's seeing them make kind of think about things in a different way because, you know, they're, they're able to, you know, their fight or flight has decreased and they feel more calm and, you know, more confident about being able to make decisions and their anxiety has decreased and, you know, and like they, they got rid of some aches and pains and they feel really great in their body too. So. Yeah, I guess, like, my favorite thing about teaching yoga is when you in the class and you look at everybody and you can just see peace in their eyes and they're just relief and you Know, that's. That's such. Yeah, it's such a privilege to be able to facilitate that.

Yeah. No, I love that. Particularly when you see people come in and they might be a little bit stressed or agitated or whatever, and then you sort of open your eyes at the end of the class and they're like, almost sort of floating.

Yeah. I mean, as you get to know your students, then you know, like, little bitty things that are going on in their lives and what their personalities are like. And you kind of know, okay, well, that person's. You know, that person's really type A. Or that person's, like, actually struggling with, you know, their transition into parenthood or. Or, you know, I teach quite a bit of prenatal as well, so, you know, I see a lot of that transition as well.

Okay. And what. Obviously, you've. You've taught in various countries and various places, but you've also been taught in various countries and places. In your view, what makes a good teacher, a good yoga teacher? Or what. Or what qualities should a good yoga teacher have? Hmm.

There's lots of different yoga teachers. They just appeal to different people. So for me, I don't really resonate with the super stern styles because, you know, I think you'll probably relate to this. As I kind of touched on before, like, when you come from the corporate world, you know, you're constantly being told you need to achieve more, you need to do more, you need to be better at this. You need to be better at this. Nobody's ever telling you you're okay.

Yeah.

And. Yeah, So I guess, you know, I. For me, teachers that resonate with me are the ones who are not gonna make you feel like, no. I mean, you know. You know, they can tell you, like, oh, you could, you know, you. You could do this and it would improve your warrior to. You could bend your knee more. You could press into the foot here. You can, you know, flow into the next pose this way or transition pose this way. But I've lost my train of thought. Yeah, but, like, in. You know, we're all people. We're all cool. We don't. We don't have. Nobody's gotta, you know, hit anybody with a stick or anything, which we know some famous yogis are notorious for. Like, I'm not, like, I. Okay, so you guys probably all know I was referring to Mr. Iyengar there. Like, I have all the utmost respect for Iyengar. He created an incredible body of work. It's amazing. But, you know, he was a person as well. So all respect to him, I don't like sitting in classes with people that would, you know, like, hit me with a stick or something like that. I would find that really incredibly offensive.

Yeah. And I think that there's a. There's a movement at the moment as well. So I guess kind of linked to the sort of cultural appropriation and the sort of exclusionary practices debate about me.

Too, that's come up around yoga, which is totally different topic. Yeah, yeah, that's been really awful.

Yeah, no, there's been some, some awful things there as well. Is that the alignment, the whole thing about alignment and, and, you know, making people do things in a certain way, people are now starting to realize and accept people have different bodies.

Yeah.

And if you're, if you're teaching someone alignment to help themselves not be injured, that's one thing you. But if you're trying to make everybody look exactly the same way in a class, then that's probably not going to work and can actually do more harm than good. And I think it's a fine line to sort of walk as a, as a teacher, and I know for me, and I'm still sort of a very new teacher, is that on the one hand, I want my students to kind of get the benefits and to kind of, I mean, get the benefits in their body of moving into the pose in the way that I guess it's intended or the way that I intend them to move into it. But at the same time, I want them to. They just want to move as well.

Yeah.

And it's getting the, it's getting the balance between letting them move and not being too prescriptive, but also not letting them continue to do something which over a long period of time could cause them harm.

Yeah, well, they've got to have their own experience, and they're the only ones who know what it feels like in their body. Yeah. So, you know, I, I look more for, like, cues that muscles are being engaged and somebody's embodied. More than that, they're fitting a prescriptive mold of how a pose is allegedly supposed to look.

Yeah, no, I, I agree with that. I agree with that. Okay, so you have, obviously we talked about your time in the science world. You're now a yoga teacher. You've been teaching for, for quite some time. Do you still have a connection with the science world as well?

Yeah, I do science communication work. So I did my, you know, I did. I think I mentioned this earlier. I did my master's in science communication here in Singapore, and I really Love the art of like crafting words together and putting down thoughts and you know, really just kind of to me it's an art to be able to say something in a really lovely way. And I'm much better on paper than I am oratorily. So yeah, I don't know, I really enjoy that crafting and I have that science background and so I found that I have that kind of a skill set that a lot of people don't have to be able to write and do research about scientific topics and tech topics. So I do kind of consulting freelance work in that realm of science writing and research communication.

Cool. So there's still. Yeah, as you said at the beginning, you're, you're, you're probably not a scientist even though I called you one, but I'm going to say that you're, you're a yoga scientist. I like that.

I'm a science mind, science minded, science minded yogi.

Yeah, exactly. Okay, good. No, it's cool to have having that, that connection. I find that again I found that really interesting and I'm looking forward as I say to, to delving more into the thesis thesis and seeing that more about how you pull those things together.

Yeah, I hadn't read it in a while and I read it this morning. I was like, wow, I love this, this is great. I want to read this more.

Yeah, it's great when you go back and research like actually this is pretty good. I do that with my, my undergrad dissertation every now and again. Although I haven't done it for a while and I probably may think differently now. It's been quite a long time.

But yeah, I needed that distance though after finishing it.

So. So yoga has obviously brought a lot to your life. What would you say is the biggest impact that it's. That it's made? It obviously took you, I guess kind of took you away from, from the corporate world. I mean I don't think you, you've been back since you, you went off.

Yeah, I did, I did. I did a stunt at a, in back in aviation here in Singapore for a little while and that time I didn't have any children so I was able to teach like a couple yoga classes a week and then. Yeah, so I wouldn't say I never went back. So one thing I think is I always had the saying specialization is for ants. Do the things you're interested in. Do the things that bring you joy and that you're interested in. And by doing that you're building your skill set and you never know how they're going to intertwine later in life. I've always had these two threads. I've had yoga. I've had this kind of science world thread. And, you know, I think with my. With my master's degree, my thesis, I was like, I'm going to marry these two together. And like, I did. And then, you know, and now they're still kind of just out there a little bit, you know, siloed. But I don't. I. They're less siloed all the time, and I don't really know where that's going to go. And I just have to have faith that it's all going to come together or if it doesn't, that's okay. Like, I did things in my life that, That I enjoyed and that I was. That were called to me. Yeah. And that's the best I can do is answer that call when it happens.

Yeah. I think there's a. A lot of time we do what we think we should do, and it's like, okay, we're in this now, and that's all that we can do. So.

Well, I didn't fit into what I was supposed to do.

Yeah. And this is the thing. When you don't fit, that's really difficult.

Yeah.

Because suddenly you. You wake up and you find yourself in this. This thing, which outwardly everyone looks at is you're really successful, you're doing really great. Like, you've got a bright future ahead of you. And inside you're just like, this isn't for me. I hate this. I. I mean, it's not in line with my values. It's not what I want to do. And you feel constrained. And I think that if. If more people did what you just said, which is kind of like, just pick up the fur. Just do what. What brings you joy. And just. And it doesn't mean. Doesn't mean wake up one day, quit your job on a whim and go and find yourself.

I mean, you can.

Yeah. I mean, it can. And people do that. But it, but, but it can. It can just mean. Okay, right. I'm going to start imposing boundaries here. And this is the time when I'm going to do yoga, or this is the time when I'm going to go to art class, or this is the time when I'm going to go to make music, whatever it is, every morning.

I'm going to write and, you know, for 10 minutes, pages. People do that.

Exactly. Because what that does is it brings intention because you're intentionally making the Effort to do the thing that brings you joy.

Well, you're also skill, skill building in an area that you're interested in. So you might not have the skill set to go out and just kind of, you know, make a million dollars doing what you think that you love, that you don't really know anything about because you've never tried doing it. So, you know, then you have skills and you have experience and you have a little bit of knowledge and you know, I mean, that's transferable, but it's also directly applicable to the things that you're interested in.

Yeah, no, exactly, exactly. Cool. Okay, so we're coming towards the end, but I still have a few more questions to go through. So as a, as a mother of two kids, this is going to be an interesting one. And as I say, you know my wife and you listen to her, to her interview, so you would have heard her answer to this question. But do you have a morning routine? And if you say, if you do, what is it?

Yeah, I have to agree with Hazel on this. My morning routine is my son waking up probably about six o' clock, and then me trying to get him to sleep. Just another hour, please, just another hour. And then him eventually, you know, being like, no, mommy, I want to go downstairs. And so then, you know, we do that. And then it's, you know, having breakfast and making sure they're okay. And every day of my, of my week is different, you know, like I might be teaching a 8am yoga class, which means, oh, I gotta make sure my kids are okay so I can get out the door on time. Or, you know, I might have, you know, a client that has a deadline and I have to do that. Or I might be like, okay, kids, like, I'm going to take you to the playground this morning. Um, so every day is different. And no, I don't have a morning routine. Um, and I'd love to say I used to before I had kids, but I didn't then either, you know.

No, that's fine. And again, I may have said this before, but I mean, it's my show, I can repeat myself. It doesn't really matter. It's not that everybody should have one one. I'm just interested. Generally, I think a morning routine helped me just get structure and start to kind of feel like I had some control over my day, particularly when I was doing what I was doing before. But yeah, it's just sort of interesting to obviously see how, what people do and how they, how they make things work for them. So, yeah, yeah, it's by no means prescriptive.

I wish. I wish I had one.

We can have dreams. We can have goals.

I use the toilet and I brush my teeth. That's my morning routine.

Yes. Yeah, kids. Kids do have a way of disrupting the best laid plans. But hey, what are you going to do about that? What advice, if any, would you have give to yourself, particularly yourself, pre yoga, when you were still sort of head down, sort of working hard, furiously away trying to sort of build a career for yourself?

Oh, God, I. I don't even know. I'm not that same girl anymore, so I don't even know what I would tell her, but she wouldn't listen. She wouldn't listen to any of it.

Yeah. Yeah, it's hard. Everything. I know. You mean when you. You feel like you've changed so much. I guess, okay, maybe if you. You weren't talking to yourself, but I guess somebody who's, who's listening and, I mean, you've said some great things about doing what brings you joy and not kind of being siloing yourself and not kind of limiting yourself. If somebody was sort of sat here sort of saying to you, yes, but I'm just doing this job I've been doing for so long, I don't know what else to do. I know it's not for me, but I don't know what else I could do.

Yeah. I mean, so, yeah, I. I was not immune to the quarter life crisis. Like, that was really strong for me. And I guess I don't, I don't. I don't know. It would. My advice be different to different personalities, but for somebody like me, it would probably be like, like you're not going to figure it all out at once, so just chill out.

I like that. Yeah.

You know, like, you know, just. You're not gonna. It's not. That's not gonna work that way for you. It works that way for some people. And don't compare yourself to that because that's not your path.

I like that. Yeah, because we can spend so much time. And I think it was. I think it was Pedro on one of the previous episodes, he said, you spend some time getting in your own way rather than just kind of letting things flow, you know, seeing how things play out, being intentional, but not placing too deep an expectation on things working out the way you want them to work out.

Yeah, absolutely.

Excellent. So what are you most grateful for at this moment?

Oh, my God. I should have listened to more of your podcast. I'd be prepared for These questions, what am I most grateful for? I don't know.

And it doesn't have to be anything massive. It can be something small. But I think it's, I think it's sort of just, yeah, it's quite a good insight into, into where people are.

Well, you know, 2020 has been a big knock across the head for most people, and I thought I'd be immune to that, and I wasn't. As I said, you know, we've had a death on the family recently and that sort of thing. So, I mean, I guess I just have gratitude for all the good moments lately. Like I said to a friend, like, you know, I'm. When we went away to do, to take care of this business, it was like, I'm just gonna enjoy all the silver linings. And so lately that is what I'm doing. I'm allowing myself to enjoy the silver linings. I had a friend who also had a death in her family, and she had to go do that sort of same sort of thing we did. And she was like, oh, I just feel so bad for enjoying, you know, my family right now and my sister's death. And it's like, no, no, enjoy your family right now. That, you know, take that, that when something is so dark and horrible, it really just brings out the light. And the other things, you see those so much more intently. So I guess, I guess I'm grateful for that in a weird way that we're able to see the positive things a little more clearly now. And I am grateful for the, those positive things that we have and asked me to get into the specifics and.

No, no, I mean specifics, because what I think, and I just written it down, Enjoy the Silver linings is, is, it's simple, but it says so much.

Yeah.

And I think for me that's, that's a big thing that my practice has brought me to be able to, to acknowledge when things aren't great. And I mean, we've all probably had things that aren't great happen to us this year to accept that they've happened, we can't change them, and then to adapt to the situation and that that adaptation can just be, okay, that's all done, but here's what's come out of it. Or if not for that, then not this.

Yeah.

So no, I, I, I, it doesn't sort of need to be any more specific than what you've just said. I mean, I think that Enjoy the Silver linings is, is a beautiful way of putting it.

What are you grateful for right now.

Oh, man. I'm the interviewer here, so it's funny you asked that. So the. For anybody who follows me on Instagram, you'll know this, but at the moment, I'm, I'm. I, I doing a gratitude challenge, which I just decided to set up myself because I felt that I woke up one day and realized it's. It's almost the end of November. Where is the year gone?

Oh, my God, where has it gone?

And we're, we're fast hurtling towards a new year into 2021.

We have no idea what that's gonna.

Look like, and we have no idea what that's gonna look like. And I think there's been so much negativity and uncertainty, I kind of wanted to reframe and for my own self, focus on things that I'm grateful for. Also because I've been really bad at keeping up my gratitude practice. It was kind of a little bit selfish in that respect. But the reason why I sort of, sort of mention it on Instagram stories and try to get other people involved is that I think by people sharing the things that they're grateful for, it allows other people to see the things that they're grateful for, and it kind of creates this chain of positiv. So that's why. So in today, what was I grateful for today? Today, actually, I said I was grateful for my meditation practice. And the reason that came up is I was having a conversation yesterday with my coach, and at the end of it, she was saying how calm I seemed comparatively to the last couple of times that we'd spoken. And the reason for that, I think, is I've kind of got deeper into my meditation practice. I generally meditate every day, but I kind of got deeper with it and, and gone longer. And so being able to have the knowledge that meditation is a good thing to have the. Had the benefit of practicing and have those tools to be able to sort of deal with situations. For me, that's, I'm really grateful for that because a lot of people don't have that. They can't turn to something like that in these situations.

Yeah. And you know, you know, taking it back to that person that I was pre Yoga, like, I would. Yeah, I can see plenty of things that just went by that person.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So.

But that's also age too. So. I mean.

Yeah, yeah, with age, because experience. But, but also. But not everyone, not everyone evolves, really. Yeah, I think that's the thing. I mean, you do expect that with age, you you sort of change and, and your viewpoints change, but not everyone evolves. And, and, and that's one of the things, is that if you. If you keep yourself in that. In that comfort zone, whether it's staying in a job that you don't particularly like that is easy to do, or just not taking any risk, then you won't grow, you will stagnate, and if anything, you'll regress.

Yeah. And I look forward to seeing myself evolve more because sometimes I drive myself nuts, too. So. You know what I mean? I'm not. Yeah.

So, yeah, we're not.

Yoga teachers are sometimes put on a pedestal. And also, if you get upset when you're a yoga teacher, it's like, well, what? That's, you know.

Yeah.

You know, can't you, like, keep it cool? You're a yoga teacher. It's like, I practice yoga because I'm crazy.

Yeah.

I need it. Right. It's my medication. It keeps me centered.

Yeah. Oh, without a doubt. I mean, there's a. There's a great meme out there, and I think it might be one of Pedro's memes along the lines of, do you mean people. People think that if you do yoga, you've got your shit together, but actually you go to yoga to actually get your shit together. And it's true. Yoga just gives you the tools. When I was talking about really freak out I had a few weeks ago because going back to my disorganization, I just realized that everything was everywhere and I didn't know how to put it all together. But the practice that I have allowed me to do, what I said, acknowledge that freak out for a period of time, but then not dwell on it. I wasn't still thinking about it days and days later. It's like, okay, right, that's happened. Accept it. Okay. Now what do I do to fix it? How do I sort of move forward.

And also get over the shame of. Oh, I lost my shame.

Yeah, exactly. Losing your shit's great. I mean, you've got to, like, in a controlled way. In a controlled way. I mean, to be able to sort of shout and scream and swear every now and again. Because if you. If you don't let it out, it will come back to bite you later.

Don't we see that in our toddlers?

Exactly. So, yeah, that's cool. That's a. Yeah, that's a really, really good way to sort of round off the whole thing about gratitude. So let's just go through a few quick fire questions to end on. Well, I Say quick five, but actually, I think the way that I've prepared these questions, they're not always, always quick. But that's fine. It doesn't matter. Is there a particular quote or words of wisdom that you live by? I know you mentioned the quote earlier, which we'll try and find afterwards, but is there any.

I probably have 100 of them.

Excellent.

Just depending on the day. I can't really think of any right this moment. That's like the whole theme of my life or anything.

Okay, that's fine. Most impactful book you've read in the last 12 months.

This is really hilarious because I've probably read like two, maybe three books since my daughter was born. And I love reading, so it's just not really having the time to read. So I read Brene Brown's Daring Greatly, and then now I'm reading Michael Pollan's how to Change youe Mind, which is. Actually was recommended to me by a friend who I counseled about my thesis a bit. And it's, it's, it's. It looks at. Well, I mean, it's talking about like, how it talks a lot about, like, spiritual experiences that people have through drugs and kind of looks at that like a little bit scientifically and the science that they're having around that. So that's really fascinating to me to see that body of research now become almost mainstream.

Yeah.

And so that's fascinating to me. So those are the two books I've read in the past couple years.

That's fine. And I'm sure any parents listening out there can. Can completely relate to that. So, you know, they'll, They'll. They'll. They'll feel. Feel good that they're not the only ones who maybe haven't. Haven't got through the reading list that they set for themselves.

Yeah. I mean, I got a stack about eight books high next to my bed that I intend to read. That just is not happening, though.

Only. Only eight. There's. See, this is the beauty of. I know we're talking before about you sort of preferring to have that tangible book in front of you rather than Kindle, which I do as well. But I kind of. Of gravitated to the Kindle for various reasons. And. But the problem. I guess the problem with the Kindle is that you talk about the eight books you've got stuck by your bed. I dread to think how many books are on my wish list or in my library.

Oh, yeah, my whole bookshelf is full of books I intend to read that I Haven't got around to, but. But I'm in it like, you know, I have great access to used books. There's. In my neighborhood, there's constantly people kind of giving away books and things like that. And so we've got kind of a book exchange and stuff. So. Yeah. But I've recently taken a load of them that I haven't read. Gotten rid of them because I'm like, I'm probably never gonna get to this one at this rate.

Just let it go. Get your losses. Favorite yoga pose.

And why any of my students would know that that's Anna Hatasana. I just really love how it opens up the thoracic spine.

Okay.

And then, you know, you can also, if you want to, you can do it in different ways. You can stimulate the third eye or you can use it to just open the heart. So for anybody who doesn't know what that Sanskrit name is, it's a, it's puppy pose, which is like a knees down, downward facing dog, if that makes sense. And you know, because a lot of my students spend a lot of time on. Well, everybody does on computers or hunched over their phone looking at their phone, you know that we all get that computer back. And it just feels so good just to open up the thoracic puppy every day.

Yeah. If any of my students are listening, they'll know that I'm a big fan of a puppy pose to. To open up a class child's pose into puppy pose. Because. Yeah. Having tight shoulders myself, I'm working daily on trying to open them up. So it's. Yeah. And open up my, my upper spine. So cool. Do you prefer to practice yoga with music or without music?

I think I like with teaching or practicing. I think I like with. For teaching. It's, you know, whatever relates to the student. Because some people can't stand the music and some people really want it. So it's whatever facilitates them really. I know some people are very like anti music, but I think that it can drop you into the right mental state if you choose wisely what the music you're listening to. So I pick things with like positive words in it or no words at all. So it kind of helps people drop into. Out of their intellectual brain into their bodies a little bit more.

Yeah, yeah. I think that's, that's good. And then we said about what the students want is key.

It's not always about what they want. But in that case, if that's going to help them access.

Yeah.

That space better than.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's Removing the friction. It's removing the sort of barrier to them actually just getting into.

Yeah, just with meeting them where they are.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. London or Singapore.

I. I loved London as a city. Singapore has been great for having. For having kids. I would say, like, you would ask me this a few years ago. Would I answer differently? But now I'm more acclimatized to Singapore. I still love London, so. Yeah, okay. But you know, if you asked me when I was in London if I liked it, I would have told you it depends what day you ask.

Oh, yes.

It can chew you up and spit you out. Right. And it can be cold and dark. So, you know, give me, give me a summer day when it doesn't get dark till 10pm and everyone's just happy in the streets. Give me London on that, that day. Any. Any day of the week.

Yeah, there's nice. Those nice summer days. Yeah, we say when everyone's sort of sat outside the pubs and it's a. It's a good ride, you know, unfortunately, they happen few and far between. That's the only downside.

Yeah. Now nobody's really. Yeah, yeah.

Well, no, nobody's out.

Yeah, nobody's out of the park.

And finally dream yoga retreat destination.

Oh, yeah. I don't know. Can we dream about traveling yet?

We have to. We have to.

We have to dream about it. I don't know. I mean, you know. Oh, anywhere beautiful, you know, so we just got back from British Columbia. So go there. Let's do something there.

Okay.

Somewhere in British Columbia beautiful. You get the rainforest, you get the. The mountains, you get the sea. Like that to me was inspiring. Like that. I haven't been touched by nature that much in a long time.

So.

Yeah, let's go there.

Okay, sounds good. So as we come to our closing, is there anything you have coming up in the future that you want to tell people about that you want people to kind of check out or.

Oh, man, I should have prepared some sort of spiel on like workshops or something. I've got. I've got some classes around town. I do some prenatal with Beloved bumps. I've got some condo classes. I've got some corporate classes. I've got classes in Holland Village. I. Yeah, so. Oh, I got featured in a book recently. That's really exciting. So I got put. So Elise Mayhew, who does Taxi Baby here in Singapore, she put together a guide for people who are it work with prenatal and postnatal people. And so she featured me as the prenatal yoga teacher. So I was like, super. That was exciting. I got to write like a little letter, open letter to the new mother. And so that was really good. So that's a really cool resource if anybody's pregnant or just recently had a baby, so they can check that out.

Yeah, well, we'll drop the link to that in the, in the show notes so people can. Can find that. And where can people find you? Obviously you've got a lot of classes, et cetera. Is there somewhere that people can kind of figure out, find out what you're up to?

Yeah, it depends what they want, but they can stop by my Facebook page. Let's put a link in, too. I am on Instagram, as we talked about before, but obviously not enough. Yeah. So I hang out in Holland Village. Come see me there or drop me a line and let's talk about what kind of class we can put you in. And if you're pregnant, come to Beloved Bumps. I've got club classes there.

Excellent. Cool. Well, that brings us to the end of today's chat. Lots more to chat about. I'm sure we'll do a bit more off air and going forward, but thanks a lot for joining me here in the Yoga Den.

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Great to kind of get a. A little bit of an education in science, you know, I mean, and figure out that there's a difference between a scientist and engineer for a change, for example.

I mean, I would love it if there wasn't and I could tell, take credit for being a scientist.

But anyway. But yeah, thanks very much for dropping by and I think people can, again, can take some great tips away from what you've said, particularly in terms of doing what you love, finding what brings you joy and just giving things a go, just getting out there and doing it. So, yeah, really good to see you and let's catch up again soon.

Yeah, let's do it.

Two things that stand out for me from today's conversation with Laura. Enjoy the silver lining and find what brings you joy amidst all the negativity and uncertainty. If we can find that sliver of light, that silver lining can really help us to deal with whatever life weighs at us. Find what brings you joy. We don't always have to be stuck in what we think we should be stuck in. And even if we can't immediately escape from our current situation, we can create those boundaries to do the things that we love, that light us up, that make us happy. Happy. I'd love to know what resonated with you from this week's show. So, as always, please drop me a line on Instagram, ryanspenceyoga or heogadenpodcast. And if you're not on social media, head to the website ryanspechtyoga.com and drop me a message there. Always love to hear from you guys. And if you like the show, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It really is important to getting the show out to others, to raising the profile, and to keep me making more shots for you guys. And I'll start reading some of these reviews out on the show. So please get them out to me and let others know what it is that you're feeling, what you like, what's resonating with you, and what's helping you to move forward in your makeup. And now, as we come to the end of the show, as always, I like to say, eat plants, give thanks, do yoga, peace.