Lindsey Athanasiou - Achievement Obsession, Burnout & Unlocking The Golden Handcuffs

The mental shift that had happened for me and is still a work in progress is like metrics of vanity versus metrics of meaning. Like what? Which things am I caring about solely because they give me status or clout? Or, you know, make me feel good? Like my ego is driven by those things versus what things truly matter? Like the end of my life when my obituary is written, what do I want people to be saying about me?

Welcome to the Yoga Den. Are you a stressed out cog in the corporate wheel? Do you find yourself asking what am I doing and why am I doing it? Then the Yoga Den is the place for you. I'm your host Ryan Spence, AKA the big law dropout, writer, yoga teacher and your guide on the path to well being through yoga. Yoga helped me find my purpose, changed my mindset and my life, and in this podcast I'll share how to live a life of intention, not reaction. Each week I'll be talking to a variety of guests, covering pearls of wisdom to help you figure out where you're heading to, where you really want to go. I won't find your purpose for you, but I'll help you plan the route. So sit back and grab a drink. I've been expecting you. Hello, welcome to Episode nine of the Yoga Den Podcast. Before we get into today's episode, if you've been listening to the show and thinking about how you can make that first step into yoga, or even if you already practice and you just want to kick start a daily practice, get some mindful movement into to start off your day, head to the website ryanspence yoga.com and check out the free ebook and video flow in 15 Flo 15 is a 15 minute sequence that I created for busy professionals just like you to help you to kick start your day the right way. And yes, I know you're busy, we're all busy, but you can spare 15 minutes for your well being, right? Go ahead, go check it out. If you do the practice, drop me a line, let me know what you think, how it's working out for you, and also by getting the ebook, you'll be kept up to date on what I'm up to, new episodes of the show, and any other great and wonderful things that are happening in the world of the Yoga Den Podcast and Ryan Spence Yoga. Okay, let's get to it. Today in the Yoga Den we have Lindsay Athanisiu, founder of wellness company Mind Might Macros, and Lindsay's on a mission to help those who want to feel better. A former Vice president in a tech Startup Lindsay had all the outward trappings of success, including, including six figure salary, Mercedes Benz in the driveway, you know, all the things that we're told that we should strive for and we should want as a self confessed achievement. Obsessive Lindsay had made it. But with this success, as is so common, came burnout, unhappiness, and the realization that the life that she had chosen wasn't in alignment with her values. And despite the golden carrot of potential equity payout down the line, Lindsay came to realize that hanging on for a payout that might come at some point was a tenuous foundation on which to hang her own mental health and wellbeing. So what'd she do? She leaned into her yoga practice, a practice that had always been there. Following an acute sciatica diagnosis in her early 20s. The mat became a haven, but also a place that forced her to ask herself difficult questions. And these questions eventually led her to the realization that the golden handcuffs that were keeping her tied to her current life could be unlocked and the world wouldn't end. There are many parallels between Lindsay's story and mine, and I'm sure you'll find parallels with yours whatever you do, whatever industry you're in. Some of the things Lindsay and I discuss are achievement, obsession, and how that obsession can leave people feeling victimized, why yoga can make you a better leader, how the yoga map is a great place to discover how to unlock those golden handcuffs, and why starting her business mind mic macros amongst a global pandemic was actually perfect timing. So by now you all know the drill. Go ahead, grab yourself a drink and let's do this. Okay, Lindsay, welcome to the yoga den. How are you doing today?

Hey, Ryan. I'm well, how are you?

I'm very good. Recovering from a slight cold, but raring to go. Looking forward to our chat today. So you are, as have been many of our previous guests in the virtual den. So can you let us know where you're calling from and what you can see out of your window, please?

Sure. Yeah. I am in Salem, Massachusetts. So that's about 30 minutes north of Boston, Mass. And yes, it's the Salem known for the Salem witch trials. So we're, we are the witch city. And I can see kind of a, you know, overcast sky. We had some rain and wind overnight, so I think the sun's going to peek through a little bit later today. But it is just after 8am here, so hopefully a nice day. But it's getting cold up here.

Winter time is coming. Excellent. Cool. It's Always good for me to sort of know what people can see, where they are, because we have so many people from so many different places. And here in Singapore, the weather, we get a lot of rain at the moment, but, you know, the sunshine. So it's nice to kind of hear about some of the seasons taking place in other parts of the world.

Yeah. You wouldn't want to be here right now.

Yeah, I can imagine. I can imagine. So thanks for joining me here. Obviously, I read one of your articles on LinkedIn and found it really interesting and connected and that brings us here. And we're going to talk a bit more about that article and your most recent one as we proceed. But to kick off and give the listeners a bit of background as to who you are. Until relatively recently, you were in a highly successful corporate career. So could you paint a picture for us as to what that was, what it looked like, particularly from the outside, what were you doing?

Sure, yeah. So I was working in professional fundraising for colleges for quite some time. That was just based on what I had been doing as my student job in undergrad. I was one of those phone a thon callers. And it translated into a career in higher ed, traveling and fundraising, you know, meeting with high net worth individuals to solicit gifts to the institutions I worked for. And I had the opportunity to translate that into a more corporate tech setting when the gentleman I had worked with that was fundraising with me at Babson College, he founded a company that created artificial intelligence software for fundraisers. So for, you know, the job that we were doing. And, uh, he asked me to create, you know, a sales team. And it took off pretty quickly. So over the course of several years with that company, um, I grew the revenue by about, gosh, I don't even remember the number. Um, we started at like 30,000 and I left and we were over a few million in total revenue and was managing a pretty sizable team all over the place. We were traveling constantly and yeah, it was a lot of fun. I learned a lot in a short amount of time and I'm really fortunate to have had those opportunities. But ultimately decided, as you know, it wasn't quite for me.

Yeah, but I think it paints a good picture because, I mean, it sounds like you were a big deal. I mean, you were successful. I think sometimes there's a misconception that if people do leave a particular role, particularly if it's from the corporate world to do something else, that maybe they couldn't stand the pace, maybe they didn't, they weren't Cut out for it. So I think it's important to sort of paint the picture of somebody who. Who was great at what they did and was very successful at what they did. And as you said, you realized it wasn't for you. So, I mean, with all of that success, the salary, the status, obviously a bright future ahead, what was it that made you decide to give it all? What made you decide that this wasn't really what I wanted to do?

I wish there was the one thing I could point to that would have probably made the decision much easier. But it was really a series of things. And I think if you read anything about burnout, you know, just that that as a concept and as a struggle, you kind of know it's a series of things that happen to you over time that you don't realize initially, and then you're making excuses for once you do realize it, and then suddenly you have a reckoning. And that moment for me was actually, you know, the culmination of all of it was when my father said something to me about how, you know, I didn't seem well. And he is really not the type of person who commented on things like that, you know, my whole life. And at that point, I wasn't spending much time with my family and friends because of my travel schedule, as well as just a symptom of burnout, you kind of withdraw from the people you care about because you're afraid of what they might see and say. And so that moment was kind of the breaking point for me. And I, from that moment on kind of was like, okay, things need to change. And I didn't know what that would look like, but I started having more of the dialogue with myself and practicing more yoga. And that's really where I kind of built up the courage to take the next steps.

And how long would he say it was from when you had that realization? And they said it was a culmination of things, but from sort of starting to get that feeling that I need a change until actually stepping out of what you were doing. Was that a considerate amount of time, or would you say it would happen within a few days, a few weeks?

It was, gosh, let me think. That event where my dad said that was in October, early October, and I gave my notice in December, but I didn't ultimately leave that job until the end of January. Okay, so it was a few months. It was a few months.

Few months. And I think when you said there about not knowing and it not being one thing is quite common because I think There are lots of things in a corporate role, but you're so busy, everything's moving at such a fast pace space, and you're so ensconced in that bubble that you don't really get that time to sort of look up for her and kind of think, is this situation working for me? You just continue with the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. So. And I wonder, I wonder how much you felt that you had to stay, whether that had a bearing on it. And the reason I asked that is because I know that one of the things for me was that I sometimes wrestled with the feeling of needing to stick it out just to show others like me that it was possible to succeed and also to try and change things from the top. And I know that tech is still seen as sort of very much a male dominated industry. And I wonder if being who you are, being as successful as you are, whether there was also a little bit of that in the back of your mind that, well, if I stay here, I can kind of make some changes for people who want to walk in my footsteps. Where you kind of felt that burden and that responsibility.

100%, yeah, 110%. I majored in sociology in college. And it was my goal just having that knowledge and that, that sort of like unraveling of like, oh, I see, this is really how the world works. That whatever I ended up doing in life, I wanted to affect positive change with whatever power or privilege I ended earning. Like, I just kind of knew that I would have that ability someday, whether it was at the very top, the middle, really anywhere. Right. And yeah, I, luckily I had a boss who wanted to have those dialogues with me and support me in creating a team that was diverse. But knowing that you should and wanting to and feeling responsible for it is sometimes not reconcilable with like the actual people that you can hire. Right. Like the, the actual qualifications and the geographical location and things like that. And so while it was something I really felt I needed to do, it was hard to do, it really was. And I think I left knowing I did made make an impact. But a guy took my role, you know, a white guy. And it was, you know, not surprising, but upsetting a little bit because I felt that whatever progress I had made, it might not last or it might, the path might not be followed moving forward to bring in more women, bring in more people of color, bring in people that maybe not weren't super qualified but needed someone to take a chance on them because of systemic issues that Made them not so qualified, you know? Yeah. And I wrote about this in my most recent LinkedIn piece that you mentioned that it's really hard when you feel you do have the power to make really positive change, but you no longer want the power that affords you that opportunity.

Yeah.

And there's a lot of guilt that goes with it, for sure.

Oh, I agree. And I can relate to that completely. And I think what I reconcile that with is that helping others and paving a path is one thing, and we want to do that, but we can't do that if our wellbeing is not in a good place. And so there's a point, there's a tipping point, I think, where your wellbeing has been affected to such a point that you either have to step out of the arena, because if you keep going, you are just going to get either burnt out or more burnt out. And how much can you actually help? Effectively being there is good, but how much more can you do to help if you're not in a good place? So, from a guilt point of view, I get it. But I think, at least for me, that's how I kind of make peace with it, I guess.

Yeah, I feel that because I wanted to be an example. Right. You want to be an example of you can do this too, and you don't want to make it look like it's really, really hard for them to do it. Right. But then at the end of the day, if you know you're living a lie, you realize you're not actually being a good example. And there was a meeting I actually was in the day that I resigned. It wasn't a day I planned to resign. I was hoping to kind of hang on a few more months. You know, I knew certain deals would be closing soon and our quarter would close and there was money, you know, dangling in front of me that I was like, I'm going to stick it out, I'm going to stick it out. I'm going to stick it out. And that can go on forever. Right. But there was a meeting I was in with the leadership of the company, and I reached a point where I was like, I don't give a fuck. We were being yelled at. And this was sort of like a management style which is pretty common in a lot of startups. It's like, don't hold back, you know, speak your mind. You can swear, you know, we're not going to call each other names, but we're going to tackle issues head on so we can solve them faster. And there's emotion and eek. Like, it's not something I remember fondly, but it was what we did, and I just no longer cared. And that was the moment I knew I wasn't providing value anymore because I wasn't even sitting there thinking critically about how to solve the problems we were having that I knew were real problems that our employees and our teams deserved to have solved for them. But I was like, okay, I guess I'm out. Like, tag, you're it.

Yeah, I think that not caring, that's quite a common one as well, because I think you can go through for a certain amount of time either pretending that you care or not even that you're pretending. It's just, as I said before, you're just doing what you've been trained to do, and you just keep doing it because that's what you do. You're an ambitious person, you're an intelligent person, all of these things. And also from the outside, that's what everyone expects you to do because you're in a successful role. Why wouldn't you continue doing that? But I think when you stop caring about things that maybe you used to care about before, you've got to take that as a sign, because then it's not good for you. It's not good for the organization, it's not good for clients, if you have clients. And it's definitely the point to start thinking, okay, is this the right place for me? Not even necessarily if it's the right career. Maybe it's just the place, Maybe it's just the people, maybe it's just the boss, but just trying to have those conversations with yourself, figuring out, okay, what do I do now? Otherwise it's not going to. Not going to end well. Do you think that part of. Part of not leaving sooner or part of not sort of seeing this change in terms of it not serving you sooner is identity linked. And by that, what I mean is that for a lot of successful people, your identity becomes blurred with what it is that you do. So suddenly it's no longer, you know, I'm, I'm Ryan, I do X, Y and Z. It's like, I'm Ryan, I'm a lawyer, and I do, you know, I mean, and that's kind of who you are. It's the kind of when you go to a dinner party and someone says, what do you do? Do you know? I mean, it's kind of like this thing. So I wonder, because I had this conversation with the people, how much of that you think was also at play in terms of the continuing to sort of do what you were doing for. For the period of time that you did.

Yeah, my, My title was intrinsic to my identity very quickly because of how achievement oriented and obsessed I am as a byproduct of where I come from, you know, my socialization in this area of my country.

And.

It was really, really challenging to divorce myself from it in a way where I could still feel proud of what I'd done, but no longer need it to feel good about myself, you know, and no longer need it to be able, like, to say to people, hey, I am a vice president. You know, it's hard to let go of that. And it was something that I kind of knew I would struggle with initially. I didn't know how long it would take me truly, to be all right, not sharing that with people, not having that to fall back on. You know, it's on my LinkedIn, it's on my resume, but it doesn't matter anymore. And it's really weird that you're like, I went through this really hard thing. I worked so hard for it. I worked hard while I had it, and then it's like, poof, it's, it's, it's gone. Yeah, it's definitely. I have another friend who sort of went through a similar reckoning a little bit before I did. And so she was really a voice of reason throughout that process for me. Like, remember all the other things that you were before you even had that title, you know, like, it didn't make you. It added to you, but it's. Once you subtract it, it's. You're no longer gone. Right. Like, your identity, your person has no, has not left the building. It's just that you're evolving.

Yeah, exactly. And I think that that's the thing, is that you. You a person, you were a person before then, but you become consumed by what it is that you do. And I don't know, I mean, it might be different for other people. I mean, sometimes it's the hours, it's the stress, it's the sort of. The deep sort of intellectual capacity of what you're doing, whatever it is. But that's kind of like it subsumes you and everything then becomes tied up in that. It comes tied up in where you go for dinner, where you go on holiday, the people you hang out with. And so effectively leaving. That is scary because you're. You feel as if you're leaving a part of yourself. But actually what's happened is that you Left part of yourself way before, and you kind of became subsequent by this career. So it's a really. It's a really interesting dynamic. And again, something which I hadn't kind of really thought about until I sort of had some time out and sort of look back with hindsight and those.

Things like you said, that go along with it. It's a package deal and we're taught to really aspire to that. Right. It's very much based on materialism and status, but all of it, when you kind of whittle it down, it's metrics of vanity.

Yes.

And it's not reflective of someone's true value and true character. You know, when my dad said, you're not. Well, I'm like, what am I conveying to these people every few months when I see them? That's suggesting my character is not the same as it was, you know, as they knew me prior to this sort of mess I'm in. You know, they don't care what I drive. They don't care where, you know, where I live and where I go to dinner. But I did and that. I was like, really? And it's kind of upsetting when you have that moment, you know, where you're like, whoa, when did this happen? You know, it's. It's fun to enjoy those things, but when they become a part of who you are, it can be uncomfortable to realize that.

Yeah, it's. It's detaching yourself, isn't it? And we're going to come to yoga in a bit. But it's. It's that sense of detachment. There's nothing inherently wrong with. With having or wanting the nice things, but when they become the thing that you feel make you who you are and that without them you're nothing, then you've got a real problem. And I mean, what you said there. I mean, it's not. Yeah, it's. It's common. I felt sort of aspects of that other people definitely have. I know. I've had those conversations as well. So it is a common theme. And it's just something where once you become aware, however that awareness comes, then you can start to work through it. But some people never become aware. And it's always that constant sort of search for more, you know, I mean, because.

Right.

It's not a game you can ever win because. Okay, you now stay. Okay, you now stay in this hotel, or you now drive this car. Somebody else is going to stay in a nicer hotel and drive a nicer car. So then you'll Just want that. And then you'll get there, and then you'll be looking up again and again and again. So it isn't a game you can win. So at some point, you've got to find that. That point of contentment. And that doesn't mean you have to leave what you're doing. It just means you have to find awareness of yourself and who you are and what it is that you're. You're looking for, what it is that makes you tick.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I think, like, the. The mental shift that had to happen for me and is still a work in progress is like metrics of vanity versus metrics of meaning. Like what. Which things am I caring about solely because they give me status or clout? Or, you know, make me feel good? Like, my ego is driven by those things versus what things truly matter. Like, the end of my life when my obituary is written, what do I want people to be saying about me? That's really the. Like I said, the mental shift I've been working on. And yoga has really helped me pass through.

Yeah. And I think that's a good point to move into this. One thing you mentioned before about achievement obsession, because when we were talking about. About setting up this interview, you talked about achievement obsession and how, in your words, most millennials and Gen Xers found themselves victimized. So can you explain from your point of view what achievement obsession is and what's the problem with that?

How much time do we have?

I hadn't heard it before, so I'm really intrigued, and I think that I get a sense of where it's going, but I'm just really intrigued, as you raised it, to kind of see where you. Where you sort of took that from.

Sure. So I guess I'll start with sort of, like, the latter part of it and then sort of explain my view. But American culture is F'd, right? Like, I think from the moment that this country was founded, like, things just went wrong left and right. And a particular moment in time that I take issue with is, like, the 50s and 60s, like the great boom after World War II, when the economy was thriving and this idea of the American dream truly, like, took hold, and it was really attainable to very. At a very young age. You know, buy a house, have a good job. You know, mostly the men were the ones with the good job and, you know, the. Did I just say men's? I think I did. And, you know, start a family, be able to afford having a family, you know, send them to good schools, go on vacations, buy a car, maybe two cars. You know, it was a luxury back then, but it was something that most people could attain, you know, this middle class lifestyle. And college was becoming a more common thing and, but people could afford it and there was just so much to be had. And most people, many people could have it. And so those were the people that, you know, Gen X and my generation, millennials, were raised by those people that were sold that dream and no, excuse me, the kids of those people. Right. So my, my, my parents were raised in the 60s and they did not actually feel that they were able to capture and live the American dream. Many of my friends, parents also, because then really the US was changing. Things became more expensive very quickly. Education became way more unattainable in terms of, you know, affording tuition, you know, private schools and the quality of education. Public schools went downhill. So there's a lot that shifted that made buying a house unaffordable, you know, sending your kids to college, things like that. So I'm sort of rambling, but I think there became this sort of disenchantment in the generation right above Gen X, which is the baby boomers, where they started to feel that the American dream was bullshit. And, you know, why didn't I get to have these things? Why am I 50 years old and I'm just now feeling like I'm not living pay to paycheck to paycheck. So the children of these people were raised, in many cases being like, oh, wow, that sucks. I don't want to be like my parents. I don't want to be 50 years old. And you know, my kids are in debt from college and I don't have the vacation home I always thought I'd have or that I believed I was deserving of. I want to be living a good life by that point. And so I took that in from a young age, being like, I need to do better. I absolutely have to. Not just because I want more than they have, but also because I feel I owe it to them. They had to work really, really, really hard for many, many years to just get to a certain point. By the most people are thinking about retirement, where they finally have a little extra money to spend. I want to do better for them. So they see that whatever opportunities they worked hard to give me and my sisters, I took advantage of and I blew it out of the water. So this turned me into a child that needed to get all A's. You know, I graduated college summa cum laude a semester early. I did teach For America, that's. Maybe you've heard of it, but it's really an incredible and very exclusive program for very high achieving undergrads mostly, but also people in later stages of life that want to affect positive change and underserved public education throughout the country. And yeah, it just was like thing after thing after thing. I needed to be the best. I needed to do the best, work the hardest and accumulate some of those metrics of vanity to prove that I had done those things like to the outside world and to myself, because I felt I at that point deserved it. You know, hey, if I have this money, my parents didn't have it at my age, I should enjoy it, right? Like I can invest some of it to be safe later on, but I can also enjoy it. So why wouldn't I? And you know, they celebrated that. They were happy for me, my friends are happy for me, my sisters are happy for me, all of that. But I think this achievement obsession is part and parcel to sort of this demographic of lower middle class people throughout the US in Gen X and millennials who had parents that didn't get to attain that American dream. You'll probably want to cut a lot of that out and make sense of it. I'm sorry.

No, no, not at all. It's fascinating. And as you're talking through it, I can definitely see parallels with other groups. So I know you're coming up from a US standpoint and historically that all makes sense. But yeah, it's the same, I'd say globally, but definitely in terms of the places that I know, I'm from the UK and there is that thing where there's the expectation that every generation will do better than the previous one. And your parents sort of say, you know, you've got to do one in school and you've got to gets a good university and you've got to get a good job and a good organization and you've got to kind of go up the ranks. There's this expectation and that expectation trickles down to obviously the, the kids that are flying through it. But as you say, the world is changing and it's changed significantly and the opportunities that maybe our parents or our grandparents saw there aren't there now. You kind of have to choose a different path. But at the same time, we're in a world where consumption's at an all time high. We're being bombarded with, you've got to have this to be great. You've got to have this to sort of find a partner. You've Got to have. So there's this kind of tension between when I'm being told that I need all of these things but I can't get the job that I've been told that I need to get, or I can, and therefore I have to work all of these hours to be able to get the things that I'm told I need to kind of make me a good person. So it kind of ties into what we were saying earlier. So I think it's really, I think it's a really interesting topic and it's a, it's a good term, term of language, I think, achievement obsession. So yeah, thank you for explaining a little bit.

Yeah, no, no problem. I'm sorry. There are my dogs. I knew it would happen.

That's fine.

The door. Someone think the mailman just came.

You know, shows we're real people. Everyone's at home these days. It's expected to happen. Right.

One, one sort of final note on that achievement obsession conversation is I think it really contributes to a much faster burning out. Right. Like I was only like 30 years old when I reached my truest point, breaking point of burnout. And I worry about my peers who are already past that point, but have force themselves or forced their emotions and their actual like somatic bodily experiences of this, this, I don't want to call it like devastation, but this, this really hard. Right. And, and scarring thing to go through. They've kind of muted it all. They've forced it down and forced it down for so long that it's, they're no longer aware of it and there's a lot of scar tissue building up for those people. And I just worry about when people are going to have, it's going to be more common for people to have this reckoning and this awakening with it. I think there's going to be like a big movement, a big rebellion against achievement oriented lifestyles and cultures and I think the pandemic is actually helping with that. So obviously the pandemic is awful and the US is, is at a peak that shouldn't even exist right now. But there are silver linings to things like this happening and I see a shift in this achievement orientation or obsession and burnout culture being one of the things that will be positively impacted by it.

Oh yeah, I think definitely there's, there's a huge shift. I mean just in conversations having here in Singapore and with other people who I know around the world, people are starting to think now everything that we took for granted, we can't take for granted. Anymore. We can't bet that we can just jump on a plane and travel for business or go and see friends and family. But at the same time it's like, well, we're spending all this time at home, we're getting to spend more time with our kids, we're going to spend more time with our family, we're getting to have more sort of family interaction. So do I really want to go back to the long commute, the long hours, the relentless working pay? So these conversations are being had and even pre pandemic with the, I mean you were still, I guess you could call almost, you know, cult like status maybe, but the, the sort of, the fire that, I mean, they want to retire early. I mean the people who are sort of going off and having these, these tiny houses. So there's definitely been pockets there. But I think you're right. I think there is a, there is a shift and it will be interesting to sort of see if that shift carries through or whether the first opportunity to go back to normal people just kind of slot back in. I don't think so, but yeah, I.

Guess, yeah, I hope not. We'll see. We'll find out in what, like two years, right?

Yeah. Who knows? Who knows? The million dollar question, right?

Yeah, billion.

So as I mentioned at the top of the interview, I reached out to you to be on the show after reading your article, Yoga will make you a better professional. And you wrote that article in 2017, which shows the great power of having an article on LinkedIn, the fact that it's still going around years later. But it also shows that the issues that are discussed are still as relevant now as they were then. What led you to writing that article?

I was at sort of like a pivotal moment in my career. I was earning my Master's of Business Administration part time while working full time and really had started to notice that the more I, more time and energy I dedicated to my yoga practice, the more successful I was becoming in my career. You know, the better manager I was becoming, the better leader I could be. And I didn't quite understand why. And I was trying to figure that out. So in one of my classes, it was business writing. Our final assignment was write and publish an article on LinkedIn. And as someone who's, you know, never had a blog, wasn't that active on any social media at that point. You know, it was an exercise in pushing myself out of my comfort zone for sure. But I was like, I'm comfortable talking about yoga. I believe these things have impacted me so at that time I was also teaching yoga to fellow employees at the institution where I was fundraising and getting my mba. And I was noticing for them as well that it was having an impact on them because I would see them around campus, you know, they'd come to my class once or twice a week and I would see them around, you know, in different events for the college and they seemed a little different, you know, like the pep and the step and you know, I would get emails and things like that just in our different working business together. And I could just tell it was, it wasn't just impacting me, it was impacting others as well and how they could function in their job every day. So yeah, having an assignment prompted me, but also having the honor of teaching people around me and knowing what it had done for me was the driving force behind that.

Cool. Yeah, it's, it's one of the things that I'm trying to do with this podcast is just to sort of show people that yoga has benefits. You don't have to, and people are probably tired of me saying this, but you don't have to be able to pull the shapes that you see on Instagram or elsewhere and you don't even have to kind of go that far in terms of the physical asana. But the benefits are far reaching beyond being able to touch your toes. So just keep an open mind and, and yeah, and get into it. So I think your article was, it was really, it was, it was a really good article. A couple was really good about it is that it was on LinkedIn and that it was reaching that LinkedIn crowd who can sometimes seem to be a little bit, I don't know, a little bit dismissive, maybe a little bit hard nose, a little bit all about business. And it's not. There are a lot of people on LinkedIn obviously, but it does sometimes have that impression. So the fact that you wrote it, you put it out there and that it's, it got good feedback and it's still getting traction today. I mean, there were still sort of comments when it came around again when I saw it shows that people at least now are having those conversations. And some people are a little bit more open minded than they probably were back in 2017 when you, when you wrote it. So.

I agree. And I think another thing was that like there's only so many networking events you can go to, right? There's Only so many LinkedIn groups you can join. You know, if you are truly trying to build your career and build inroads to New companies and new positions, that stuff gets exhausting. And I truly feel there are so many other ways to actually grow your career. And thinking a little bit outside the box can go a long way. And I think diving deeper into your yoga practice is one of those ways you can further your career because you're basically building a more whole self, you know, and you're able to show up more meaningfully and authentically at work. That's how, you know, you become a better leader. People respond to you, you know, you're, if you're embodying yourself, yeah, it's, it's a different energy that you bring every day to your life. Work, home, etc. So yeah, I actually, I re shared it recently, so that was, I think, how it got more traction and you, you responded. I'm not typically a content resharer but because it was so long ago and because I went through some of this again recently, I was like, I think I need to bring life back to this. So I'm really glad it led to this.

I know, that's great. I'm gonna, I'm gonna take that tip. Yeah. With some of my own work there later down the line. I think that's a really good tip. The fact that you can reshare because there is a tendency sometimes to think, oh, people have seen this before, they don't need to see it again. But I mean as you've shown the people a may not have seen it before and also they may have forgotten or they've just got a renewed appetite, they've learned more, they've developed more and they a bit more open minded.

So yeah, and if you're active on LinkedIn, you're following or your connections grow every day or every year. And so three years ago, the number of connections and who were my connections on LinkedIn was a very different group than it is now. So I was like, all right, new eyes. And I got them.

You did indeed. And we'll put, I'll put a link to that in the show notes as well. So more from, from listeners of the show when you wrote the article. So back in 2017, you were doing your MBA, as you said, you were still within the corporate world and you're also practicing yoga. So did you feel that practicing yoga was a good balance to working in the corporate world? Is that kind of how it works for you? Did you find that the two were both necessary and were both compatible for the life that you were choosing to live?

Yeah, ever since I started practicing yoga, I felt it was the yin to my Yang. I've always been a very intense person. One of my best friends describes me as equal parts. Oh my God, I gotta find the quote. Equal parts. That's asshole. And high on life.

Wow.

Yeah, I actually met her in my first yoga training, so it's really funny. But I've always been like a very intense person. I feel very intensely. I, I, I'm energetic, I, I'm sarcastic. And for better or for worse, like, I just, that's, that's my Yang. And in, in working, you know, I'm, I'm intense and I put my heart into my work. And so when you get really into something, you know, it can be hard to deal with disappointment and, you know, pushback, things like that. And so leaving work, going to a yoga class, it was like I had the ability to shut it off, reset, come out feeling better. You're right, Constantly better. That's the point of doing yoga, just to make yourself feel better in any incremental amount. And yeah, it was a great balance. I would often go, I would actually try to go to class before work because I found that the rest of my day would go a lot better if I came to my mat first thing in the morning. But like the hustle of that, like getting myself out of bed, making my breakfast beforehand, having my lunch packed, all that, like that was sometimes too stressful for me. So it's a balance for sure. But absolutely, it helped me really feel I could work hard during the day and then still have this semblance of calm and balance.

And what brought you to your first yoga class?

I was 22 or 23 and was having debilitating lower back pain. I didn't know what it was. And my mom was like, you need to go to a chiropractor. So I went. And his initial assessment of me was that I had the spine of an 80 year old.

Wow.

Which is so dramatic. And I don't believe it was true, even in his expert opinion. But his prescription for me was acute chiropractic care. So going to see him for adjustments two times a week for months and stopping any high impact exercise. So that included running, you know, weightlifting, everything I was doing. He was like, no more. You can swim, you can walk and you can do yoga. And I had never done yoga. I'd done Pilates and I just didn't know where to turn. I didn't have a pool that was easily accessible. Walking did not make me feel like I got an ex got any exercise. And I was pretty broke at the time, honestly, had just come back from Teach for America, was living at home, trying to pay my bills and figure out where to go in the world. And I found a Groupon for a yoga studio nearby. It was like five classes for 25. And I was like, all right, what do I have to lose? $25, you know? So walked in and sweat my ass off. Didn't know what I was doing. It was a hot yoga flow class, but I left being like, I feel amazing. And I had no idea what magic had just happened, but I was hooked.

Wow. I think you're probably only the second guest who went to their first class and left feeling amazing and like, I want to do that again. I know for me and for a lot of people, sometimes it's. You go, it's like, this is awful. I can't do anything. But there's something that drags you back. But to kind of have that, that sort of like, this is for me from the beginning is, yeah, it's interesting and it's great, obviously, because it kind of keeps you, keeps you going back. How long were you practicing and before you decided to teach and what made you decide to teach or become a teacher?

There's a teacher who I've actually been meaning to reach out to. I don't think she was the first, you know, the instructor of the first class I took. I think she was maybe among the second or third middle aged woman. She had a day job, she taught on the side. And she was so real, she was so funny. One of my best friends is wonderful. Like, we've been friends since we were like 13. He's a gay man. He actually lives on the west coast now, but we've been friends forever. And at that point he had just graduated college and we, we went to a class together and it was her class and I was like, I want to be this woman. Quite honestly, she, she just screamed like raw and real. And we had all these running jokes after the fact, my friend and I, about her humor and how it was like a very feminist type of like girl, like down dog your way out of that marriage, like that type of instruction that wasn't that. Yeah, but, but so she, she just inspired my curiosity. And I always thought of yoga teachers as this very, you know, spiritual, like, earthy, very opposite of what I was, which was this high intensity, you know, achievement oriented person. And she kind of bucked that for me in a really good way. So once I kind of was, was more into the practice and developed my practice and I realized just how important it was becoming to me and shaping my life. I realized, oh, my God, do this for other people. That's amazing. So I saved my money and I did a lot of research on the teacher trainings in my area. And so I think it was, let's see, 2013, it was about a year and a half after I started practicing that I enrolled in my teacher training.

And so you did your teacher training. You came out of it, I'm sure, like many people transformed. It is an amazing experience. And then you went back to your corporate job and were you teaching on the side or were you. Do you just go full on back into work?

So, because I do a million things at once, because of my achievement obsession, I was doing that teacher training nights and weekends while I was still working full time. And I hadn't started my MBA yet, but I was planning to as soon as I finished the training. So, yeah, I like to load my plate because I can't waste a minute. So I was working the whole time. And then, of course, yeah, I continued working and added a few classes onto my schedule at the studio where I had received my certification.

Okay, and at what point did you. Because we talked before about the yoga being a good balance between your work at the time. At what point did you feel that there was no longer a balance and that you kind of had to step out and do the yoga thing?

I don't know. Yeah, no, I. So I taught for about two and a half years. And then when my job became really like weekly travel, you know, I couldn't maintain a teaching schedule anymore. It wasn't fair to my students to constantly cancel class or get a sub. I think that's a disservice. So I stepped away, promising myself I would come back to it because of how it made me feel to share this love of something with other people. But two and a half, three years went by and I didn't go back to it. And I also wasn't practicing yoga as regularly as I had been, nor as much as I knew I should be. And so over time, I just realized there's a reason this is happening. I still feel pulled to it, but for some reason, I can't make time for it. And that was, you know, kind of the awakening I was having. Like, this is my true passion. This is like the moments I've been happiest and most satisfied in life are when I'm practicing and teaching. So it's time I just do it, like, and. And the ego part of me is what held me Back for so long. It's like you don't think of yoga instructors and any, any fitness or fitness instructors or healing people as that important or, or I don't want to say valuable, but it's a status thing, right? It's very easy to poo poo those people and those roles in the world when you're very afraid of what it would mean for you. So, yeah, it took a little time, but I knew in my heart a long time ago this was something that I'd found that had made me feel like I'd never felt before and eventually it would become a part of me. I kept telling people, oh, maybe later on I'll open a yoga studio and you know, down the road I'll do X, Y and Z. But life is too short, as we've all been reminded, you know, in 2020. So if not now, then when? That was sort of how I entered into this year.

Wow. Yeah, I relate to all of that. Yeah, I'll do it later. Yes. And then gonna do. Yes. Thinking about my lifestyle now, my life. Oh, I can't really do that. And rather than just thinking about, I just want to share. I just feel that it's important to share. And I think that when you get into that mindset, then you just accept that everything else will figure itself out. I mean, you've obviously got to, got to do the work that you need to do, but. And accept that you're probably not, at least in the short term, going to be living the same lifestyle you were living before. But then again, it goes back to what we're talking about before. What does that lifestyle mean to you? You know, I mean, if you're aware of yourself and aware of what's important to you, how much of that is actually that important? Is it more important that you do the thing that you love and share it to try and help people also enjoy the thing that you love? So, yeah.

One of the things that we had talked about in exploring, doing an episode together and then something that actually came up this past weekend for me in my 300 hour teacher training. So I'm at the very final stages of receiving my 500 hour certification. One of the conversations we had this weekend with the group was, yeah, it's great if, you know, you want to teach yoga full time and this is your passion, great. But we cannot ignore the fact that we live in a capitalistic society and we have bills to pay and structurally, you know, yoga teachers and other fitness instructors and spiritual healers and leaders are not compensated in A way that's going to just allow them to survive. Right. In most cases. And so that's been another sort of tangent and another thing in the back of my mind always of how can we make this more available to people, you know, not just the practice of yoga, which is a whole other topic, you know, making yoga affordable, but making this your living, making this your, your life's work. How can we make that? How can we reward that appropriately for the people who are providing this very valuable service?

Yeah. A question that has been asked by many and answered by few because. Yeah, I mean there's the stereotype is of the E. Well, I guess there's two stereotypes really. There's the starving yoga teacher who's running around teaching 20 odd classes a week and eventually gets burnt out. So maybe they left the corporate world because they were burnt out and then goes to yoga and then gets burnt out.

That's my nightmare. That's literally my nightmare. Like.

Exactly. Or they're, they're the person who is fortunate to, to have a partner who is supporting, supporting them or who is in one of those sort of huge, huge roles and therefore they can effectively have a passion product. And they're not the only two. They're probably the two that most people would point to. But as you look more, there are lots of people out there doing amazing things and it's about being your authentic self and finding what, finding what works for you and finding what it is that you want to share and what it is that the people who you know and who you want to be around and who you want to help, what it is that they need so you can pave your way. But yeah, by no means is it easy. I definitely don't expect it to be easy. I'm early on in my journey too. But you know, as you say, when you find the thing, when you find the thing that you're, that you're passionate about and you know what it's done for you, you want to share that with people. So you figure out a way to sort of do that and make it work.

Right, right.

Which leads us nicely onto mind might macros. So the craziness of 2020, not only do you quit your corporate role, but you go ahead and you found your own company mind Mike Macros. So what sparked the idea for that company and what made you decide to start it now in these times, in the global pandemic and the huge economic uncertainty?

Not to scare you at all, but no, it doesn't. Honestly, it's like that's exactly the reason. Because the world is incredibly unstable right now. People are questioning everything in their lives left and right and starting to really realize they need more inward, you know, looking inward, reflection and, and care because their hearts are heavy, their bodies feel something that they haven't felt before or that they've been, you know, pushing down and ignoring for a long time. And I think more than ever people are looking to things like yoga to help them feel better in a really shitty situation that the whole world is feeling. And so my ultimate goal is to provide more than yoga, but my passion truly is yoga. So, you know, looking in terms of creating a sustainable business and growing my skill set to be able to coach people around nutrition, meditation, things like that, that's where the name came from. But my primary focus right now is really helping people develop a yoga practice. So a lot of my students are newer to the practice or they've practiced on and off, you know, maybe a couple classes here, a couple classes there, but it's never really stuck and now they're really trying to go deeper and make it a part of their, their own healing right now. And I think the world needs it more than ever. So, you know, when I started to realize that this was the thing I should go do, the planet's sort of aligned. I'm not restricted by location of where I do it because everything is virtual. Right? I could go teach in a yoga studio right now where I am, but the attendance is really limited and personally I don't want to expose myself to that risk. And there are many people who feel the same way in terms of being, you know, a student. So virtual yoga is more accepted and welcomed than ever. I'm teaching people I knew from prior lives who are on like the west coast, who are in Texas, all over the place. And that's really been very fulfilling for me.

Yeah, it's, it's an amazing time. As we touched on earlier, I mean, it's been an awful year for a lot of people. Obviously a lot of people have died, a lot of people have been seriously ill and there's been a lot of knock on effects to, to the pandemic. People not being able to travel, be able to get to funerals, to weddings, to big family events, whatever it may be. And I think that there are people who have been fortunate to have not, not had some of the worst things happen to them, but have kind of taken the year and said, okay, this year in one sense it's kind of a write off, but in another sense I can take the opportunity now to, to do things, whether it's to upskill, whether it's to start a new venture. So yeah, when I, when I asked the question I am, I was expecting that you would say it was a great time because I think there's, there's parallels between what you said and also what I've done as well. I mean, I, I sort of started not long before you and similar vision. It's about sharing and the, the sort of whole online space opening up is, is a really opportune time to be able to connect with people globally, both in terms of teaching them yoga, in terms of doing things like this interview and just generally just learning from people and just speaking to people who you probably wouldn't have done before because you're so in your own space. I think it's fantastic and it'd be good to sort of see, see where that goes.

So you're saying I'm predictable. Well, no, I knew you would say that.

Yes, yes, but not in the way that you think. The reason why I would say that is because so, so for example, and I'll go to this now, your, your recent article, which just get the title right. Yoga and the Golden Handcuffs. So I read that at the weekend and I could have almost been reading my own story. So when I went, I mean, predictable why. In the sense that there were so many parallels in terms of how you have experienced things or how you talk about having experienced things and then what you do with those things as well. And so let's explore the sort of the Golden Handcuffs and you're talking about how is it really. I really like the metaphor about how yoga can unlock them. But tell me about what is it about you for the golden handcuffs and, and how, how do they lead to burnout? I urge listeners to go, to go and read the article which I'll link to, but I could just be interested to kind of hear, hear you explain it. So here and now a little bit.

Yeah, no, we're definitely kindred spirits, Ryan. Like when I was writing that, I was actually thinking about you. It's all, it all comes down to this achievement, obsession and kind of getting yourself into a position that you thought was what you needed to work toward this whole time. And being like, I'm here, you know, I did it. I have these material things. I have this title, I have this power and this privilege that I can now use to do good things with. Realizing you're not happy and, but being trapped in, in many ways. And so I talk a little bit about it's not just trapped financially, it's also trapped mentally and emotionally because this is now a part of your identity. This is something that you feel guilty if you were to leave it. There's so many layers in terms of what the handcuffs are like, made of. Right. I think I'm gonna write a follow up piece about it because there's so much to unpack. But yeah, it's, it's just about getting to a point where from the outside everyone is like, oh God, like, she made it, he made it. You know, life must be sweet, but not liking it, not telling other people you don't like it and forcing yourself to stick it through because of these metrics of vanity.

And I think you're saying that the handcuffs are not just financial. And I think that that's a key point because there are these other metrics. So one key one would be the objective view. You see somebody, they've got what you perceive as a great job, great salary, got the status to go with it. They may be working on these huge deals. That's a successful person, right? Why would a person like that step away from that? I mean, effectively they're set for life, as the term goes. And so there's that, there's that aspect of feeling trapped as well, because you don't want to let people down. Whether it's your parents or your friends or your family or you don't want to be seen as a failure. There are these whole other things that are wrapped up in what it is that you choose to do and in your identity. So I thought the phrase, again, like achievement, obsession. I thought that the sort of the metaphor of Governor Hancock was a good one. Talk a little bit about how yoga can unlock those. And for people who are listening, I.

Don'T want to get too, like, esoteric and up there, but I assume that you know, anyone who listens to a podcast called the Yoga Den has some basic knowledge of sort of the fundamentals of yoga and maybe some of the philosophies therein. But I'm a big fan of the chakra system. Highly recommend if you, if you, if chakras are brand new to you or if you don't know too much, you want to learn more. Anodea Judith has a great book. It's like basically an introduction to the chakra system. And it's this belief that there are seven energy centers in our body and each of them governs different functions, both, you know, physical, physiological, as well as psychological and, you know, somatic feelings. And I really believe that. You know, obviously yoga sort of founded on the. This idea that it's. It's waking up those and it's aligning those. And through yoga, you can bring them all into this perfect balance. And then all of your systems are functioning properly, your brain is functioning properly, and you're just okay, right? Like, that's the goal. It, you know, through yoga, certain elements of your chakras that are out of balance based on what you've been doing your life, that have created this imbalance, they start to rumble, right? And they start to awaken and things come up. And so, you know, one of the poses that often an instructor will say, you might feel a rush of emotion here are intense back bends, like a camel pose, right? You're expanding across your chest. Your heart is opening up toward the. To the ceiling or the wall, you know, and that's because it's opening like your heart chakra. And that can suddenly make you feel this rush of emotion that you didn't know you were holding inside. It could be sadness, it could be happiness, it could be so many different things. And so that release of emotion through yoga, I think, is what helps people realize what they' been holding in and pushing down and not actually addressing with themselves. It's how I was really able to finally accept, like, shit's not good. My dad is right, I need to do something about this. But it's also why I was avoiding my mat, because I just knew throughout my life, throughout my practice, I will feel things and realize things that are uncomfortable and that I might not be ready to realize right now.

Cool. So the, yeah, the chakras are really deep. I remember covering them in artist training and I, I found them fascinating, but I couldn't. There was just some things which you just couldn't really get at the time. And chakras was one of them for me. But I recently did. I recently did a chakra workshop with. With a friend of mine, and that kind of really got me back in tune and getting a little bit deeper. And I think that you're right that there of these emotions that can bring up. And I know he said, you don't want to get too esoteric, but I mean, these things didn't come from nowhere. They've been around for hundreds, if not thousands of years, and they are proven to be real to, to affect how we behave, to affect how energy flows through us. So I think it's a good thing to talk about. And I think the way you. You sort of spoke about that was really Interesting because a lot of us, myself included, we talk about how yoga changed us, but we don't necessarily talk about it from the slightly more philosophical aspect. So it's interesting for, particularly for the listeners as well who maybe don't know what the chakras are to, to hear a bit about what we learn about in, in our teacher training.

Well, it's funny you say that like, you know, you were first introduced to them in your teacher training and it didn't quite stick. Same with me. I was at a point where I was just kind of like, I'm more interested in like the truly physical, like what are the postures I should be teaching? You know, and only in the last like maybe year, year and a half did I really start to say like, what is it that I'm doing on my mat that's actually causing these feelings to come out? Why when I'm practicing more often, do I feel better than when I'm not? And a friend of mine who was actually sort of like a mentor in my sales career, she also has a very deep yoga practice and she actually trained in India. She's never taught. She did it for her own practice, Deepening. And so while she was mentoring me in my sales world, we also are like kindred, kindred spiritual people. And she introduced me to Anadea Judith. So the book, I just flipped it up, I have it on a shelf upstairs, but it's called chakras made easy 7 keys to awakening and Healing the Energy Body. It's not long and it is like the most digestible description of the chakras I've ever come across. That like, really a person who might not even practice yoga can read this and, and understand it and actually appreciate it because it's, it's very much based in science. And every single point she makes is illustrated by a story that is very relatable. Okay, highly recommend it.

Great. We'll put a link to that in the show notes and I'm going to go and check that out myself as well.

She's written a lot. She's an incredible, incredible healer and teacher. So there's a lot of her book still on my shelf that I need to read, but that's the one that I have read that I really loved.

Okay, great. And you're, you're saying you're just coming to the end of your, your 300 hour so you'll be a 500 hour register teacher, which is pretty, pretty cool.

I think so, yeah. You know, it's funny, it's been really Interesting to be doing that in this year. Right? Like, because it wasn't. But it wasn't intentional that I chose to do this year long training to deepen my yoga practice and knowledge and teaching capabilities while we went through a global pandemic. But it's been really a blessing because of how much deeper it's grounded me in my practice and my love for instruction. So yeah, it's with a really amazing school based in Boston. They have three studios in the greater Boston area called Down Under School of Yoga and they actually have have a virtual school now. All online access to classes 247 that I think they've just really adapted well throughout the pandemic, our teacher training included. It's all been virtual since March.

Wow. Changing times. Yeah, I don't know, I'm still thinking at one point maybe I'll do that, but I'd like to come back. I mean my 200 hour, my teacher was great. So if I was going to do my 300, I'd love to kind of come back to Singapore and do it with the same teacher.

But yeah, go for it, do it.

I may do, I may do. We'll see how it goes. I think as you said before about sort of loading too much on your play, I'm definitely guilty of that and I've done a lot of that this year. So I need to actually finish some of the other courses that I signed up to see where we are.

But remember what you also said, which is that you always say, I'm going to do that later. I'll get to that, I'll get to that. Right, right. Balance, balance.

It's getting the balance right. I know, I know. Holding me accountable there.

Yeah, that's what I tried to do, myself included.

Excellent. So, yeah, we've kind of gone through the journey of sort of being in your sort of highly successful role, your burnout, you coming back to yoga, you now teaching and wanting to share and now coming to the end of your 300 hour and setting up the business. Would you say that you are now on the path, you have a vision for how you want your life to be and you're now on the path to what your purpose is.

I'll answer sort of a different question, if you don't mind. I feel more fulfilled than I've ever felt.

Okay.

And so that suggests to me that I'm certainly on a better path and I have a vision for the next few years. I hesitate. I've always actually hesitated to make long term plans, and not just plans, but like have these visions of what my life will or should look like because I, I've always just felt life changes very quickly, the world changes very quickly. And I, I guess I experienced disappointment from a, from a young age for whatever reasons. And I just, I hate the feeling of disappointment. So I don't like to create these big plans and dreams and then them change and then we get disappointed. Instead, I try to stay open to opportunity and, and really like give myself the space to pivot when I have to or feel I should. And so that's kind of what's guiding me right now. I'm like a cosmic force, sort of put me in this spot and I'm going to stick with it as long as it feels right.

Perfect. I think that's all that you can do. And I guess what I would say, particularly to people listening who are questioning, is that at least once you've got some sort of vision, you can then pick the steps that you need to take to achieve that vision. I know for me, and it may be the same for you and definitely for others, is that when you are in the thick of it, there isn't necessarily time to think about the long term vision. There's time to think about the visions directly in front of you, like this is the next promotion in what it is that I'm doing or this is the next deal. But to actually think, is that actually what I want or is there more out there and should I explore what else is out there and kind of figure out where I want to go? That doesn't really happen. So by having these conversations, my aim is just try and get people thinking about those and thinking about, okay, what steps, where do I want to be and what steps do I need to take to get there? So yeah, I mean, the question about purpose, asking anybody about whether they found the purpose, I mean, it's a huge question and some people will say yes, but as a previous guest said as well, it might change and that's fine as well. It's really more a question about, okay, intention. Are you, are you, do you now feel that you're living in alignment with your values and do you kind of have a vision as to where you think you might want to be necessarily what job you want to have, but how you want to be as a person, how you want to feel, what you want to be around you? So and so I think you've answered that in terms of just saying that you're the most fulfilled you've been. Now that kind of, yeah, says it all. Really?

And so there's this concept of, like, stepping into your integrity, right? And you kind of know it when you do it. Like. Like, I think every person's experience of it, if they do it, is going to be different. So I'm not going to, like, try to define it, but I think. Think anyone listening would know, you know, whether or not they feel they're truly in their integrity right now. What. This sounds so silly, but for any. Any listeners, male or female, who wear makeup, right? I have always loved makeup. Like, I don't know why. I used to watch my mom put hers on in the morning when I was little, and I thought it was so cool. Like, oh, my God, her eyes look bigger. How did she do that? And so my adult life, like, I always, you know, leaving the house, put on, like, a full face of makeup, and if not a full. Then, like, at least I was doing, like, foundation and, like, the basics. This year, I still leave the house. I still, you know, I still see friends occasionally. You know, we quarantine, we're safe. We wear masks. I go to the market. I do things. I see people on screens. I stopped wearing makeup. And I think, truly, that's. That's like, a really great example of, like, when you step into your integrity, you are, like your truest self, and you're okay with it, and you're happy with it. And I don't. I don't feel I need that stuff anymore. And again, I feel it's so silly, but I think maybe other women might relate to it. And, you know, any men who also. And do anything to sort of, like, change their identity on a daily basis, that's the metaphor, right? You're sort of wearing a mask or you're wearing a hat or, you know, whatever it might be for you, the moment that thing disappears, you no longer care about it as much, is when you're either moving toward or you're in your integrity finally.

Oh, I think that's a great way of putting it. I mean, on the makeup thing specifically, I remember a few years ago, if anyone out there listens to Alicia Keys. But when she decided she wasn't going to wear makeup anymore, partly due to that, really, because there was this whole sort of industry around magazine covers and how women should look and et cetera, and she didn't want to continue to perpetuate that image, so she just stopped wear makeup and still doesn't to this day. So I think it's a. It's a very good metaphor. And as you say, it kind of you can string that out to lots of different aspects because effectively what you're saying is that you're not being yourself, you're being what you think that you should be as opposed to what you feel you should be. And there's definitely a lot about. I know I've been there and I didn't necessarily know I was there for a long period of time. And saying now with hindsight that I can realize actually I was there but for a lot longer than I thought. Because she gets so used to effectively playing a role or to effectively playing the game, either because she just feel you have to, either because you just get sucked into it, either because you think, well, in order to kind of get this promotion or to kind of be in the right circles and be in the right conversations, I kind of need to be a particular way. And yeah, so you're just not, you're just not yourself. So I think that. And I, I kind of like how you sort of link that there in terms of purpose and in terms of vision for your life. If you can live as yourself so you can get up every day and be yourself, feel within yourself, I think that that's, that's got to be the best place to be. Right. I mean, what could be better?

Absolutely, yeah. I mean, you truly, you only have yourself at the end of the day. Right. I mean, it's sort of a morbid way to look at the world, but I think it's, it's a reason to truly go after you know what it is will make you feel you're in your integrity.

Yeah. I was going to ask what tips you would give to any listeners who were trying to figure out their purpose. I think what you've just said kind of goes there and it's quite a big thing to take away. I don't know if you have anything else or you have anything that maybe you would have said to yourself, say, going back a few years when you were in the midst of crisscrossing the country on flights and being a high powered tech exec, what would you have said to yourself, do you think?

I don't think I would have said anything.

Okay.

I think while there are certainly things I look back on and maybe wish I did differently, I think had I really truly done anything differently, I wouldn't have ended up at here. So I've really been trying to not resent or regret any piece of my path because my path led me here. And that's advice I've been giving to one of my friends, going through sort of this crisis, of these golden handcuffs, looking at other people's paths and being jealous of it, or just comparing. Right?

Yeah.

Comparison is the hobgoblin of small minds. Oh, I like that. And I think that's another thing I've just been trying to live by. Is my path. Is my path, period. No ellipses, no colon, you know, no double dash. It is what it is. And I'm here for a reason. I'm here in this spot today for a reason. So forward only.

Sound words. I mean, I definitely agree with the no regrets, because as you say, you can always look back at what could have been, or I could have done that different, or if I just taken that decision there. But as you say, you wouldn't be where you are now. And I think, as you said, and as I feel, we're both in places now where we feel we are. We are living ourselves. We're no longer wearing a mask of any kind, and we're sort of free to sort of express who we are and take whatever comes with that. Some people will like that, some people won't. But we're out there now, and there's a freedom that comes with that. And I wouldn't exchange that freedom for anything else. But as I say, I wouldn't have been able to kind of get here without the process that I've gone through. And also, I've been sort of fortunate because the process that I went through allow me to then have the time and the space to kind of figure these things out. Other people aren't necessarily that fortunate, so.

Exactly. Well, and I think this is a huge piece of where yoga comes in because we've very intentionally come to our mat to learn self forgiveness, to practice it, to practice, like, loving ourselves for better or for worse, you know, everything we do and everything we say, being okay with this moment, you know, being present in this moment. And I'm. I'm just like you, grateful that I had that path that gave me the opportunity. Opportunity, not just the realization of where I should be, but the opportunity to move into where I feel I should be. And, you know, my greatest wish is that through my teaching, through my writing, I help people just get an inch closer to that too, you know, because I think the world will be an infinitely better place if more people can. Can move toward and be in their integrity.

Very, very true. And again, it's. It's almost as if I said it myself. These parallels are getting spookier and spookier.

When are you gonna. When are you coming over Here, I only need to meet up for, like, a glass of wine whenever we can.

Get on the plane again. I would. I would love to. I'd love to go to Boston. It's definitely a place on my list. So, yeah, we'll definitely keep in session. I'll let you know. As we come towards the end of today's interview, I got two more questions before we get to the the quick fire slash more fun round. The first is one I ask everybody partly just because it's something that always fascinates me and I'm also a little bit nosy, but do you have a morning routine? And. And what is it?

I have a new morning routine.

Oh, excellent. Okay.

And it is to wake up without looking at my phone at 5:30, dedicate the first hour of my morning to reading whatever it might be, an article, a book, while having coffee, of course, then have a bite to eat and walk my dogs. So I give my time to digest whatever it is that I've read, process it, think about it, maybe listen to some music, because I find, like, that's sort of a moving meditation for me. And then whatever needs to be done the rest of the day kind of takes over from there. But I found that I'm really a little more centered with that as my first sort of two hours of every day.

Okay, you say, this is new. How why did you change? Or how is it, how is it different? How does it make. How does this new routine make your day better?

I would love to hear actually your perspective on this, Ryan, because the moment you move away from a very stressful, regimented career where someone needs you first thing in the morning, you have the added element of being a father too. So, like, that's a whole additional thing. But in terms of, like, the work, when your day is laid out for you, when you suddenly no longer have that, did you find that you're just like, okay, like, putting my feet up, I'm gonna freaking relax a bit? Did you have that experience?

I think it.

No.

But I think there's probably two reasons why. One, he said, yeah, I have kids and my kids are going to get up regardless. So if I kind of want to get anything done, I kind of need to try and fit it in before they get up. But I think also lockdown. So we had our lockdown here in Singapore in, In April. It kicked in. And I think, like a lot of people, for me, I needed to have structure in lockdown. Otherwise the days would just sort of morph into, you know, okay, not quite sitting and watching Netflix all day because, as I said, I have two kids, but, you know, nothing would kind of get done. I think that in any other year without a lockdown, and also, if I didn't have. If I didn't have young kids as well, then, yeah, the alarm going off and, you know, I mean, it's like, oh, I don't have to get up anymore, or I just lay in bed for a little bit longer. I definitely would have taken advantage of that, of course.

Yeah. And I mean, there are some days where I set up, you know, this at this time, this at this, you know, and other than the, the classes I'm teaching and the private clients I have, you know, the rest of my day, it's kind of like I can do what I want. I know what I should do or could do, but there was sort of a lack of motivation out of this, like, somewhat contrived mentality of, like, I deserve to rest, you know, and I don't believe I don't deserve to rest, but I was realizing, I think I was resting a little too much. And, you know, there are better ways that I could have been doing it at more appropriate times. And I know that, you know, in my career, I was way more satisfied at the end of the day if I tackled the important things, things first, you know, and I. I made time for myself and, you know, my yoga practice and other exercise, things like that did my good work. And then I could say, it's all gone now. Like, it's, it's done. Turn it off. So that's why I was like, all right, new strategy.

That's cool.

You know, it'll. It'll evolve, I'm sure. But I'm liking it so far. I'm a few weeks in.

Cool. Yeah. And I mean, these things should evolve. And no, it's not to say that everybody should have a structured routine and do the same thing every day. I just think that for me, I know that how, how I start the day definitely has an effect on how the rest of the day goes. So I think if anyone can just kind of get a routine of some sort that works for them, it doesn't have to be a 5, 5:30am Wake up, but whatever it is that sort of works, that they feel that they've got that little bit of that little oasis of control at the beginning of the day, I think can just really kick things off the right way.

And if I could make another plug for, like, a resource that has helped me so much in sort of building more structure for anyone self employed, not employed, like whatever your situation might be. Atomic Habits by James Clear. You ever heard of that?

A great book.

Yeah, like life changing. So many things seem like insurmountable. Like, how could I possibly add that to my day? How could I possibly get up at that time? And this expert gives such digestible and applicable easy tips to start to build toward that. And that's like my bible now.

Yeah, yeah, I read it. I think I read it. I think about the beginning of lockdown, actually. And so my routine is sort of quite long standing now, but it was still really fascinating to read. And it's something which I definitely go back to. I have my Kindle notes somewhere, so.

Love technology.

Oh, it's a beautiful thing. A beautiful thing. So a final one before he comes to the quickfire. What are you most excited about right now?

Oh, I like that. I'm excited to become a better teacher. I felt I had started teaching right away, you know, after my first training, and I. I loved it. I thought I was doing a great job. And then, you know, I moved away from it. I missed it. But I didn't realize at that point, you know, just how much there is to learn about my own practice. Before I felt I could really be a strong teacher. I felt I was a good teacher. But now, having done this training and having gone deeper into my own practice, I am digesting things and practicing things that have new meaning for me and that I'm working on translating and articulating more powerfully in my classes. So I'm just excited. There's really no limit to how authentic and inspiring a yoga class and a yoga teacher can be. So. That.

Sounds good. Sounds good. And I think that that, again, is. It's awareness. It's being aware of. This is what I have, and this is good. This is kind of where I could develop more and going ahead and doing that, which is what yoga gives you. So. No, I think that's a great answer. Yeah, really good answer. So as we come towards the end of today's interview, let's go with a few quick fire questions. So is there a particular quote or words of wisdom that you live by?

Let the dead leaves fall.

Nice.

That's roomy.

Nice. Roomy's room is full of crips. What's the most impactful book you've read in the last 12 months?

It's a book I haven't finished yet. Burnout by Emily and Amelia Nagoski. They're sisters.

Okay, I haven't heard of that one. I Will have a look. Check that out. Favorite yoga pose and why.

Star pose? It's. It's literally just power pose. Right? Like arms up, legs wide, just. I love the burst of energy. I love this concept of taking up space. You know, women are often trying to take up less space, and I'm constantly trying to buck that. So the most powerful of poses, I think, is star pose.

That is a very good reason. First one for star pose, but also a very, very good reason for why I like that.

That.

Do you prefer to practice yoga with music or without music?

Depends on the day. That's kind of a cop out and a very consultant E. Answer, but I, I, yeah, it depends on the day.

Yeah, no, that's fine. I think you, you, however the mood takes, you determine so what you want to listen to or if you want to listen to anything audible or. Netflix.

Netflix.

And final one, what's your dream yoga retreat? Destination?

Wooded, secluded Vermont. It sounds so lame because I'm already in New England, but I feel most at peace and like, deflated energetically. In a good way. Deflated. The bad word for that. In, like, very snowy, woodsy, dense, northern New England.

Good, because that is. Yeah. That's different from the sunnier climbs that we have. We've been given in previous interviews. So.

Yeah. Yeah, I, I'll be honest. I am a sweater. Like, I, I sweat like a freaking. I don't even know what animal sweats a lot, but I. Whatever animal sweats the most, I sweat more. So while I love the beach and I love tropical vacations, my body is not super comfortable there. I would much prefer to wear layers and layers and like, I'm the type of person, like, when I practice at home, I have thick wool socks on because I'm, I'm. I, like, I want to be just covered because that I need to be cold in order to be covered.

So you definitely struggle in Singapore.

I'd love to go, but I don't think I'd be doing a yoga retreat there.

The humidity would really get to you based on what you just said.

Yeah.

Great. Well, Lindsay, that pretty much brings us to the end of today's interview. What do you have coming up soon in the future? Anything you want to tell the listeners about?

So I teach publicly on Zoom. Anyone can attend. My classes currently are Mondays at 7pm Eastern Standard Time and Thursdays at 7am Eastern Standard Time as well. So if anyone's curious to check out one of my classes, you can go to my website. Ryan's gonna link it. I'm sure. But it's mindmymacros.com yoga for my public yoga schedule. And I also teach privately, so I do private sessions virtually and in person. There's more information about that on my website as well. Other than my teaching, I'm, I'm just gonna keep writing. You know, it's helped me connect with you and other amazing people that share a lot of the same thoughts, but are also helping me think new things and push myself further into this world. So if anyone, you know, wants to follow me, I'm publishing everything on LinkedIn and also on my Instagram. So that, that's right now. We'll see what comes after that.

Sounds good. And yeah, all the, all the links which I got from you will be in the show notes. So the website LinkedIn, it's a Graham. And yeah, yeah, definitely look forward to, to reading some more of the. Of your writing. Based on the two articles that we've read so far, they're the conversation that needs to be had. I think the more people that are talking about these things and get them out there, the, the better things will hopefully get. So. Yeah. Well, all that's left to say is thank you very much for your time. It's been really great speaking to you and, and, and having this chat. Hopefully you've enjoyed it too and enjoyed sharing your story.

If that has to be a question like da da da question mark, then I've done something wrong. Absolutely. Thank you so much, Ryan. I really love, just like I said, sharing the conversation and these ideas with someone who thinks similarly has a similar path, but can bring it to people who might have a slightly different path but still find meaning and resonation in what we're talking about. And I hope that this inspires more people to join the conversation with us.

Great, thank you. Yeah, and that's my reason for doing it too. So yeah, listeners out there, anything that resonates with you, drop me a line. Drop Lindsay a line. All the details will be in the show notes and all I have to say is thanks very much, Lindsay, and you have a good day.

Thank you, Ryan. You too.

Cheers. Thanks. Achievement, obsession, burnout, and the weight of the golden handcuffs. Just three of the things that I'll take away from today's conversation with Lindsey. What about you? Drop me a line. Let me know what resonated with you and if anything from this interview has made you think differently about how you approach your own life. As always, leave us a review on Apple podcast. It really helps to get the show out there. Had some really great reviews so far. I'm going to start reading those out on the show, so do drop me a line, let me know what you think. You can catch me Ryan spenceyoga or heogadanpodcast both on Instagram. And go ahead, check out the website ryanspenceyoga.com to find out more about me. Get hold of that ebook flo 15 and just generally find out what's going on in my world. And and as always, as we come to the end of today's show, eat plants, give thanks, do yoga, peace.